How would you run a flying school/club?

[llanfairpg]

This is mainly for the qualified PPLs (There is a similar thread for instructors)

Do you ever think to yourself, "If i was running that club/school I would do this or that instead of xxxxx. I would be really interested to know?

It could be anything from the greeting you get as you go into the building, the state of the aircraft, the way you were taught, the instructors, the syllabus, the land away cross countries, the instructor dress code, etc etc.

So if you were to start your imaginary flying school/club tomorrow what would you do differently and why?

[Saab Dastard]

Is this in "Nirvana" or the real world?

I only ask because in Nirvana you could run the most wonderful school / club and not worry about the whopping losses...

Unfortunately, Carlsberg don't do flying clubs, but if they did... :)

SD

[llanfairpg]

Yes I was thinking about the real world but I like the sound of what I know you are proposing. Tropical Beach, no cloud, no students, no income tax, no aids, great fun

[BackPacker]

I've been involved in a number of organizations ("clubs" mostly) which somehow have to combine volunteers with people who make a living out of it. I find that most people struggle to keep the club atmosphere, where a lot of things are done by volunteers, for the members, combined with paid services.

My flying club is a club. It is run by a volunteer board of directors. All the aircraft are directly or indirectly owned by the club. The club (a large one: something like 600 members) has a few paid staff who manage the reception and do a lot of other admin stuff. This obviously includes invoicing the hiring of the aircraft, landing fees at home base etc. The rental rates for the aircraft are public, as are the total number of hours flown and the cost associated with running an aircraft (fuel, maintenance, insurance, ...) so people can verify that the club indeed offers the aircraft for the lowest decent rate possible.

All flying instructors are nothing more than members of the club, as is the CFI. The club, as a courtesy, provides a feature in the internet booking system that when you book a club aircraft, you can also book an instructor, if the instructor has identified himself as 'available' for that period of time.

Payment for flight training is done to the instructor direct, although every member is free to keep an account at the club and the club, again as a courtesy, allows you to deposit money into an instructors account if that's what you agreed with him/her. But for all practical purposes the instructors are freelance, with no labour contract between the instructor and the club.

The CFI, instructors and the board of directors have gone through the hoops of getting the club registered as a "registered facility" for PPL training. A few instructors including the CFI have also created a separate organisation, called the FTO, which is certified for CPL/ME/IR training, but I don't know the specifics about this.

The maintenance organization we have is a separate "BV" (Ltd. in the UK), which is wholly owned by the club, but financially separate. They have paid staff and the club pays the maintenance organization for any work done. They also maintain a few non-club planes, and for historic reasons some club aircraft are maintained by another, commercial outfit on the field.

The bar is contracted out to a caterer.

A few members have aircraft of their own, which they make available for club use (typically for the complex and multi part of CPL training). As a courtesy, these planes are included in the reservations system as well, but the rules on usage/checkout etc. are set by the owner. The club, as a courtesy, will handle the invoicing for the plane rental, and I assume the club charges a small fee for that (on the order of 5 euros per flying hour or so).

All in all I think my club has struck a good balance. I have heard of clubs gone under because they were run as a commercial school by the CFI, leading to the situation where fresh PPLs would run away because they were not, for all practical purposes, welcome to rent planes there anymore - because the CFI did not make money from rental. I have heard commercial schools go under because they were too expensive. And I have heard clubs go under because they were not run professionally enough, leading to the situation where instructors could not count on having a somewhat decent stream of business and as a result offering their services elsewhere. Or the situation where flights were wrongly invoiced or not invoiced at all because the reception staff was made up of club "volunteers", who were forced to do reception duty once or twice a year.

[llanfairpg]

Thank you for that llooong reply, do you think that could work in the UK or is it more in keeping with Holland that seem to have a more laid back attitude to life than we have.

Is there anything you would like to see being done differently there?

Should add that in my experience of working in 12 schools/clubs, committee run clubs or autocratic owners had the lowest standards

[luigi_m_]

If I owned a flying school, I would make sure students had a reason to stay once they have qualified, rather than moving to another club. For the first instance, I would make sure all the planes look good on the inside and out. Stripping down the club 172 and putting in new seats and windows will make a world of difference in my opinion. I would make sure that all training aircraft are of the 4-seat variety, so that students can jump in the back of eachothers lessons and learn topics which are further along their course, eg, taking a lowhour student up in the circuit before they join the circuit themselves should be a great help, plus it helps keep the club atmosphere so that students will have "flying partners" once they have qualified. So now that my 2 PA-28's and C172's are freshly painted and given new seats, I would give the students a retired-airline instructor or instructors who aren't going to buzz off to the airlines as soon as they have enough hours.

There would also be 3 aircraft which would be available for tuition and hire after the PPL

1. A 4-6 seater twin piston for advanced flying and multi-engine experience, IFR-equipped of course, for IMC, Multi and IFR training.

2. Full-aerobatic 2-seater (eg, Extra 300) for members who have their PPL and at least 75 hours P1 time. Students would be encouraged to enter competitions once they are suitable, with the club's logo on the side :ok:

3. An old, perhaps as old as WW1 plane, such as a Tiger Moth of Chipmunk, something with an element of aerobatic intrigue, to keep things interesting for students, because who woudn't want to fly a 70-year-old biplane?

The club would modern enough, with 1-2 operations staff, a computer and printer that lets members print off the weather and notams before flight.

Regular flyouts to foreign or exciting destinations will keep the members happy and feeling as though they have achieved something, which they will have.

Please send your CV's for instructor vacancies in about 12 years time, and I'll get back to you as soon as possible...

[llanfairpg]

I would like to send mine now!!!!!

You have reminded me that in most of the organisations i was involved in once the stude had the PPL it was goodbye. No wonder so many pack up!

I used to run fly ins(loose formation) to different airfields but its dificult to be CFI and get involved. I suppose this is where the Club is better. It is great to see a happy club where members are welcomed and encouraged. I used to get fed up saying to reception staff , "come on xxxx, say hello to the nice man" (and under my breath, that's paying our wages!!)

The one big black mark with a lot of schools is the total non welcome you get when you walk through the door. I took my son(by road) to Derby recently and they looked at us as if we had crawled out of cheese. They soon came out when we went upto one of the aircraft!

By the way I think you need more than just flying events, you need social events to maintain interest and of course they are a lot cheaper. Much more encouragemnet of cost sharing too but people need to know each other and be confident, thats were social events and good standards come in

[luigi_m_]

What shall we call our joint company then?

[llanfairpg]

Well as a joint company it would have to be the Marijuana School of Flying.

Although i would like to point out I only do alcohol and if some of the posters on here are members, plenty of it!

[BackPacker]

luigi_m. You've just described my club.

Well, almost. The airplane variety is a little different. With a fleet of C152, C172, PA28-161, PA28-181, DA-40, DR200-120, DR200-160, DR200-135CDI and a R2160 we have just about everything you might conceivably need as a PPL. Through club members we have access to an Arrow (for complex ratings) and a Seminole (I think) for multi-engine. The R2160 is of course used for aerobatics, including competition. We have a formation team that regularly flies 9-ship formations. The only thing missing, really, is some sort of tailwheel aircraft. Maybe a vintage aircraft or a CAP10C or something. And it would be nice to have one or two plastic fantastic, Rotax 912 powered two-seaters for very cheap touring.

Oh, and there are various club events throughout the year. Flyouts (Flying Legends @ Duxford), club weekends/weeks and a rally competition held throughout the year. Some club flights have been as far as the North Cape, to Lands End, Eastern Europe and to Morocco, and that's just the ones I know about. More locally, we have an annual Goodwill day where we take young patients from some nearby hospitals flying (last year we had close to 100 patients spread out over some 60 flights), we have the annual Open Day where people can get cheap trial lessons, flight sim events and the occasional party.

What is really, really important is that the people who "formally" run the place (the board or CFI) give others the freedom (and encouragement) to organise things. Don't try, as a CFI or other hotshot, to be involved in everything. Even people who barely have their PPL might be wizards at organizing things like charity flights, open days, flyouts etc. If you have a dozen or so enthousiast volunteers and you manage to keep them motivated, you've got a proper club.

[IO540]

The answer depends on how good the location is in terms of population wealth, and what the competition is.

Assuming loads of BMW Z4 owners, a nice clean airfield with a hard runway, and no other school around, there is no doubt that one would set up an upmarket flying club, well organised and with a pretty girl on the reception desk. And modern planes of course; none of the 1950s junk. Salaried instructors, no ATPL hour builders (some builders are good but they leave soon because they get jobs). Do the whole lot from PPL to IR.

But if - as is most likely - there will be local competition operating the usual knackered old junk, you will never make money because they will always undercut you and you will never achieve a dominant market share. Your only hope will be to draw in as much business as you can, hoping they will go bust. The trouble is that aviation is full of people who are willing to work for nothing and turn up and sit by the phone on an OVC002 day just in case a bunch from the local council estate book a pleasure flight (a "trial lesson"). So pushing the competition out could take years.

Also there are not many airfields in a good location that are not threatened with closure.

So, I don't think much can be done to improve matters.

[llanfairpg]

Sounds glum!

Know what you mean about more than one school and have you noticed how many dont have anything to do with the other school.

[Saab Dastard]

I think that you have to decide up front whether you are talking about a club or a flying school.

The latter is a business, not a charity, and the owner expects to make a profit / living out of it.

A club, on the other hand, can be operated basically as a non-profit-making organisation - insofar as the members can afford to keep it running.

SD

[llanfairpg]

Ive come across hybrids, clubs that were businesses owned by two directors in this instance but sort of run by a committee. I say sort of because the one director just overuled what he didnt like!

[DX Wombat]

I may have read through this a little too quickly but so far I haven't seen anyone mention activities to encourage people to be more safety conscious. I'm not just talking about trips to D&D etc but rather along the lines of Herefordshire Aero Club's policy of charging members only the PPL hire rate when undertaking further training such as IMC and Night Rating. As far as I am concerned this means it becomes affordable and should encourage people to do further training. :ok: They also have a nice little caravan site where I can park my tin tent whenever I'm down there. :ok:

[Chuck Ellsworth]

The ideal flying school would be a J3 Cub operated off a grass field, with no need to ever deal with the bureaucracy nor need any permission from same to teach flying.

No radio, no need to enter controlled airspace.....just teach hands and feet flying and good Airmanship.

[llanfairpg]

Chuck had a feeling you were gong to say that but I must insist we have Tiger Moths & Chipmunks after all we are British old chap (Well I am anyway)

What is it about grass runways, they just seem to make flying more relaxing.

HAC have some nice touches you have described two of them but that clubhouse needs sprucing up. If it was being run in a business like fashion it it would be completely redecorated. The bar is very uninviting and really scuffy and the toilets are disgraceful.

[Whiskey Kilo Wanderer]

Say Chuck, you wouldn’t happen to be Drake, from the Richard Bach story ‘School for Perfection’ ?

Now that is the way to run a flying school.

Safe Flying,
Richard W.

[llanfairpg]

Have to say i would have thought you would have jumped in straight away with the time on the ground. Is it fair you pay for 20 minutes holding on the ground at the flying rate--I do not think so especially as the airframe and engine hours are taken from take off to landing.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Chuck had a feeling you were gong to say that but I must insist we have Tiger Moths & Chipmunks after all we are British old chap (Well I am anyway)

The Tiger Moth belongs to me and once you learn to fly the Cub I'll check you out in the Moth.
The Chipmunk is just to modern so you will have to buy your own.

This is my garage at home......

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/ChuckEllsworth/P1010897.jpg

[BackPacker]

Have to say i would have thought you would have jumped in straight away with the time on the ground. Is it fair you pay for 20 minutes holding on the ground at the flying rate--I do not think so especially as the airframe and engine hours are taken from take off to landing.

Ah, the old "how to charge for flying" discussion. Very simple. If you rent a plane from a commercial outfit, you can be sure they will set the rates so that they maximise profits without turning people away. They're a business, after all.

As far as a club is concerned, with no profit motive, what they should do is tally up all costs for an airplane, meaning fuel, maintenance, hangarage, insurance, depreciation, whatever, and divide that by whatever convenient number can be easily and reliably measured from the instruments in the airplane. The pilot then has to pay whatever the instrument says he has used.

There are several variations. There's hobbs meters, which can be wired to the electric master switch, to the engine master switch (in case of FADEC), to an oil pressure sense switch, to a pitot pressure sense switch and probably a few other places as well. There's also places that use the tacho, and places that use the honour system requiring you to accurately report engine on, off-blocks, take-off, landing, on-blocks or engine off times.

But at the end of the fiscal year, the exact method of deriving your flying time is divided out. So it really doesn't matter all that much. A system where you only pay for actual time in the air will have higher hourly rates than a system based a hobbs meter, which runs all the time the engine is on, all other factors being equal.

The only real difference is whether the system favours long flights over short flights or not, and whether the system encourages flying at a "proper" cruise speed, properly leaned, or favours flying at the highest power setting that's allowed continuously.

It seems to me that using the tacho as basis for charging flight time is the best compromise, although this doesn't yet encourage proper leaning. Because of that, long distance, high-altitude (typically IFR) flights are comparatively expensive for the costs that these flights incur.

[Whirlybird]

Chuck,

I'd come to your school. :ok: Who needs all these fancy aircraft and buildings - all some of us ever wanted was to learn how to fly.

[BackPacker]

Radical, this is getting into the legal side of things. I have no experience in the UK, but in Holland what you would do is grab a few like-minded people, discuss between yourselves the rules and regulations your club is going to live by (examples are available from a lot of places), then go to a public notary and formally set up the club. That same notary can also help you with the rules and regulations. You need to appoint the first chairman and first treasurer at that point too, and establish rules on serving periods, elections and such for the board of directors.

As part of the rules and regulations, you also need to establish how the club may come to an end, and what happens to the assets of the club should there be any left over in that case. Those assets are NOT owned by the members, nor by the board of directors or the original founders, so you have to decide up front what happens with them.

You then need to register your club at what is called in Dutch the "Kamer van Koophandel". I have no clue what that is in the UK, but it is a public record keeping place of everything that is a legal entity without being a natural person. (Legally, you can run a club without registering it, in Holland, but you are then severely limited in what you can do with regards to buying significant assets, taking out loans and such.)

Then open up a bank account, make sure you get some money into the club (either from contributions or donations from members, or by taking out a secured or unsecured loan) and start buying assets. Planes, ground, buildings, computers, printers, reception desks, vacuum cleaners, insurance, you name it.

Advertise the club, make sure you get some more members in, and start enjoying yourselves.

If the club owns an airplane, or organizes flight training, I might think a phonecall to the CAA is also in order, to be properly registered as owner and/or FTO. There may be some rules and regulations that go with that too, but the CAA is in a better position to advise you on that than I am.

And at some point, accept that the club might not be heading into the direction that your originally had in mind, and either work through the democratic process to change it, or quietly step out. It seems to me that almost every club (aviation and non-aviation) has a bunch of "old hands" around which stifle any progress that's being made. Don't be one of them!

So if you're serious, I'd say your first point of call should be a public notary. He can tell you exactly what's involved in your jurisdiction.

(Edited to say that it looks like RadicalRabbits question, to which this is a response, has now disappeared?)

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Chuck,

I'd come to your school. Who needs all these fancy aircraft and buildings - all some of us ever wanted was to learn how to fly.

Unfortunately the system will not allow such a simple logical concept as that.

I quit aviation because I could no longer take all the B.S. that went with it.

I am far better off now not having to deal with some moron telling me how to do something the moron never did themselves.

Fu.k it I managed to fly 55 years without having to fill out an accident form and I'm satisfied with that.

By the way in our lets pretend school I want a Huey Cobra fully armed to protect our territory from morons. :E

[llanfairpg]

BP

Planning Permission in the UK, I would like to tell you something about it but no one knows how it works not even the planners.

A bunch of residents in this country have just been told that they all have to take their drives up and replace it with grass because they never got PP to effect the change. Its mental

Chuck I bet that toolbox is worth more than the aircraft

[BackPacker]

Well, I guess that if you want to build and use a runway you need planning permission. But that's regardless of whether it's a club, a corporation or an individual doing that and thus not really relevant to the discussion about how to set up a club, is it?

Another can of worms, or so I've been told, in the UK is H&S.

[IO540]

I know a little bit about this, and it appears that setting up an airfield is not impossible. The hardest bit is that everybody thinks it is impossible, so almost nobody does it, and those that do it just go for very limited (private) usage. The budget would be mid 5 figures for the planning permission.

However a hard runway appears much harder to achieve. I know of people who did it, on a previously unused site, after a few years' work, but none of them are in the UK.

Anyway, currently, you need a licensed airfield to do PPL training, and any business needs to offer that to generate revenue through that and to be able to do pleasure flights (trial lessons).

H&S is less of a problem. One can just pay the minimal lip service to it, just well enough for the insurance to be valid. But such a realistic attitude needs direction from management. What most businesses do is they appoint a H&S manager and he immediately does what humans do: builds an empire. He then throws his weight about. This is why we get the stupid rules, like mandatory yellow jackets. There is NO demonstrable safety case for yellow jackets. It is just some moron decided to write them into his safety manual.

These people normally hold relatively harmless jobs in society e.g. ISO9000 quality managers; insisting that the company purchases its toilet rolls from an ISO9000 supplier and if they can't get them, the supplier has to fill in a vendor audit form every year in which he states that they don't knowingly use crap materials, etc.

However, occassionally, these little men escape the ISO9000 environment and end up working in H&S, and then there is BIG TROUBLE.

llanfairpg - I am very sorry to hear this, but there is a plastic material which can be used to covertly reinforce grass. It's too expensive to build a hard runway with it but it would be fine for "grass" drives.

[Whirlybird]

Hey, Chuck, I want to send you a pm but your inbox is full - please can you clear some space!!!

[Lister Noble]

IO540

Very apt!

toilet rolls from an ISO9000 supplier and if they can't get them, the supplier has to fill in a vendor audit form every year in which he states that they don't knowingly use crap materials, etc

:D:D

[micromalc]

I think the Tiger Club out of Headcorn have it just about right. Good range of aircraft from Tiger Moth to Cap10c and always a friendly atmosphere.

[tigerbatics]

The club is not just about the aeroplanes or the prices but the members. If they are just people who expect to turn up and fly and then go home it is very hard to create any proper club atmosphere.

Members need to be encouraged to turn up even when not flying, and to stay around after they have finished.

My club does it's best with 152s and PA28s to learn on and for solo hire and 172/PA28 for touring and a Cub, Decathlon, Pitts S2A, and Tiger Moth for those after interesting flying.

[llanfairpg]

Tiger

Dont you think it also has a lot to do with the way the club is managed,have you heard that old management saying:

Fish rot from the head downwards

If you have a management team that are service and customer orientated rather than just anorak enthuisats you get a different type of organisation.

The most important type of enthusiasm to have in any service industry is enthusiam for the customer.

Give you an example of differences in attiude,

School/club A a fantastic shiny powerful single a/c arrives at an aerodrome everyone stops, remarks about it and wants to go over and look.

School/Club B A fantastic shiny new pilot arrives at an aerodrome and someone detailed from the management team remarks about it and goes over and welcomes the pilot.

I think it is pretty impressive when someone flys an aircraft into another aerodrome as a visitor. I think it is pretty impressive when someone puts their head round the door of a flying club and may want to learn to fly. Sadly i seem to be alone, judging by the lack of welcoming I have seen and experienced.

[oscarmike]

No, you are not alone by any means.

Now, don't get me wrong, the flying school I trained with for the PPL was excellent.

The aircraft were relatively new, and well maintained.

Standards of instruction were second to none.

However, what really used to p*ss me off was that on entering the place, most of the time you were lucky to even be acknowledged.

I never used to really feel welcome there, even though for most lessons I was about to part with best part of a couple of hundred quid.

There was no excuse with the admin staff being voluntary either - they were all paid.

I returned to the same place two years after getting my PPL to do the IMC rating, for no other reason really than the fact that I was obviously very familiar with the aerodrome and the local area, and I knew the standard of instruction would be good.

However, I have since joined a syndicate and have on occasions visited my old training unit, but with the same results. You stick your head round the door to say hello, and basically they don't want to know.

Perhaps its just a revenue thing, and they know they are unlikely to make any money out of me now, but then again I did return for the IMC course, and then there's always the night rating......

Strange though.

[llanfairpg]

Oscar

It is common with British service industries. when Wal Mart took over ASDA the first thing they did was put 'Greeters' on the door.

It is not only customer friendly staff you need, and you do have to employ training even in basic skills such as getting someone to say, HELLO! you also need a new customer service enviroment. How many clubs/school hide their staff behind screens/counters (just in case they catch anything off the nasty customers) I would imagine signing on would be a more friendly experience!

The other gripe is the general appearance, cleanliness and untidyness of some of these places. In most businesses where you are going to part with around £5000 plus they have much more than just a untidy shed to encourage you to part with your money.

[oscarmike]

Agree absolutely.

When you walk into our local B & Q there is inevitably someone standing just inside the door with a stack of orange buckets to hand to customers as they enter.

But boy oh boy do they look (and obviously feel) awkward.

It's just something in the British psyche IMHO.

[llanfairpg]

You can also find a leaflet on how to do things in B&Q. Imagine going into the school/club and finding a pre-flight briefing in a folder waiting for you.

[radicalrabit]

Wonder if we could blag peak district national park into using some of the vast amount of wasted space we have to make a runway to take some of the traffic off the roads and avoid the need to build yet another by-pass?
Maybe we could helicopter people into Manchester but then the CAA would have a million reasons why not. So good to see we have such a solid transport ministry in this country who all sing from the same sheet eh aren't we lucky....:ugh: Yes I know Barton is only a stones throw away but it takes an hour to crawl to through the traffic to even get on the motorway from here. By the time we get to Barton its gone dark !!!

[llanfairpg]

Rad

You reminded me how nice it is to have high ground around an airfield!!!

So its got to be grass(with good drainage) with tailwheel aircraft with a few hills, friendly welcoming staff and members.

Must have an NDB for confusion and good stories in the bar.

what about the club house, RAF style, Portacabin or brick built?

Catering must serve proper Sunday Lunch, good beer and cider in the bar.

Anything else

[BackPacker]

what about the club house, RAF style, Portacabin or brick built?

Doesn't matter as long as it is kept reasonably clean and tidy, and has loads of photos, tropies and other memorabilia on the walls.

Obviously needs a flight briefing corner with internet access and a printer, free for all to use (small box for volunteer donations recommended). Wireless internet if possible for those who bring their own laptop - just put the WEP key on the noticeboard.

A traditional jukebox? Pinball machine? Seating: old 1st class airliner stuff.

Catering must serve proper Sunday Lunch, good beer and cider in the bar.

Also: vending machine for coffee and snacks if the bar is closed. Bicycle loan if the pub or other attractions in town are too far to walk. Maybe even an old, ragged club car which can be rented for cheap/free for visitors.

Anything else

A licensed engineer on standby during weekends? Discounts for members who rent hangar space to build (or restore) an aircraft as opposed to just storing it there?

Up to date, but easy to maintain internet site. With webcam?

[radicalrabit]

Getting to sound more like a hostel for pilots kicked out because they seldom go home....:ok: Dart board?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

what about the club house, RAF style, Portacabin or brick built?

--------------------------------------------------

It should look like the Squadron at North Weald.

[IO540]

Getting to sound more like a hostel for pilots kicked out because they seldom go home

No, that is the gliding club

:)

Still, give a bunch of anoraks a chance to decide what they want, and of course you will get a load of coat hangers for anoraks at the top of the list.

[KeyPilot]

For some reason, this thread has only just now entered my consciousness.

How to run a flying club? I would close it down and find more enjoyable ways to waste my money (sex, drugs, alcohol, ...)

[llanfairpg]

Key pilot you went to the wrong clubs.

Is all out there!!!!!!!!!