How would you run a flying school/club?
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How would you run a flying school/club?
This is mainly for the qualified PPLs (There is a similar thread for instructors)
Do you ever think to yourself, "If i was running that club/school I would do this or that instead of xxxxx. I would be really interested to know?
It could be anything from the greeting you get as you go into the building, the state of the aircraft, the way you were taught, the instructors, the syllabus, the land away cross countries, the instructor dress code, etc etc.
So if you were to start your imaginary flying school/club tomorrow what would you do differently and why?
Do you ever think to yourself, "If i was running that club/school I would do this or that instead of xxxxx. I would be really interested to know?
It could be anything from the greeting you get as you go into the building, the state of the aircraft, the way you were taught, the instructors, the syllabus, the land away cross countries, the instructor dress code, etc etc.
So if you were to start your imaginary flying school/club tomorrow what would you do differently and why?
Spoon PPRuNerist & Mad Inistrator
Is this in "Nirvana" or the real world?
I only ask because in Nirvana you could run the most wonderful school / club and not worry about the whopping losses...
Unfortunately, Carlsberg don't do flying clubs, but if they did...
SD
I only ask because in Nirvana you could run the most wonderful school / club and not worry about the whopping losses...
Unfortunately, Carlsberg don't do flying clubs, but if they did...
SD
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Yes I was thinking about the real world but I like the sound of what I know you are proposing. Tropical Beach, no cloud, no students, no income tax, no aids, great fun
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I've been involved in a number of organizations ("clubs" mostly) which somehow have to combine volunteers with people who make a living out of it. I find that most people struggle to keep the club atmosphere, where a lot of things are done by volunteers, for the members, combined with paid services.
My flying club is a club. It is run by a volunteer board of directors. All the aircraft are directly or indirectly owned by the club. The club (a large one: something like 600 members) has a few paid staff who manage the reception and do a lot of other admin stuff. This obviously includes invoicing the hiring of the aircraft, landing fees at home base etc. The rental rates for the aircraft are public, as are the total number of hours flown and the cost associated with running an aircraft (fuel, maintenance, insurance, ...) so people can verify that the club indeed offers the aircraft for the lowest decent rate possible.
All flying instructors are nothing more than members of the club, as is the CFI. The club, as a courtesy, provides a feature in the internet booking system that when you book a club aircraft, you can also book an instructor, if the instructor has identified himself as 'available' for that period of time.
Payment for flight training is done to the instructor direct, although every member is free to keep an account at the club and the club, again as a courtesy, allows you to deposit money into an instructors account if that's what you agreed with him/her. But for all practical purposes the instructors are freelance, with no labour contract between the instructor and the club.
The CFI, instructors and the board of directors have gone through the hoops of getting the club registered as a "registered facility" for PPL training. A few instructors including the CFI have also created a separate organisation, called the FTO, which is certified for CPL/ME/IR training, but I don't know the specifics about this.
The maintenance organization we have is a separate "BV" (Ltd. in the UK), which is wholly owned by the club, but financially separate. They have paid staff and the club pays the maintenance organization for any work done. They also maintain a few non-club planes, and for historic reasons some club aircraft are maintained by another, commercial outfit on the field.
The bar is contracted out to a caterer.
A few members have aircraft of their own, which they make available for club use (typically for the complex and multi part of CPL training). As a courtesy, these planes are included in the reservations system as well, but the rules on usage/checkout etc. are set by the owner. The club, as a courtesy, will handle the invoicing for the plane rental, and I assume the club charges a small fee for that (on the order of 5 euros per flying hour or so).
All in all I think my club has struck a good balance. I have heard of clubs gone under because they were run as a commercial school by the CFI, leading to the situation where fresh PPLs would run away because they were not, for all practical purposes, welcome to rent planes there anymore - because the CFI did not make money from rental. I have heard commercial schools go under because they were too expensive. And I have heard clubs go under because they were not run professionally enough, leading to the situation where instructors could not count on having a somewhat decent stream of business and as a result offering their services elsewhere. Or the situation where flights were wrongly invoiced or not invoiced at all because the reception staff was made up of club "volunteers", who were forced to do reception duty once or twice a year.
My flying club is a club. It is run by a volunteer board of directors. All the aircraft are directly or indirectly owned by the club. The club (a large one: something like 600 members) has a few paid staff who manage the reception and do a lot of other admin stuff. This obviously includes invoicing the hiring of the aircraft, landing fees at home base etc. The rental rates for the aircraft are public, as are the total number of hours flown and the cost associated with running an aircraft (fuel, maintenance, insurance, ...) so people can verify that the club indeed offers the aircraft for the lowest decent rate possible.
All flying instructors are nothing more than members of the club, as is the CFI. The club, as a courtesy, provides a feature in the internet booking system that when you book a club aircraft, you can also book an instructor, if the instructor has identified himself as 'available' for that period of time.
Payment for flight training is done to the instructor direct, although every member is free to keep an account at the club and the club, again as a courtesy, allows you to deposit money into an instructors account if that's what you agreed with him/her. But for all practical purposes the instructors are freelance, with no labour contract between the instructor and the club.
The CFI, instructors and the board of directors have gone through the hoops of getting the club registered as a "registered facility" for PPL training. A few instructors including the CFI have also created a separate organisation, called the FTO, which is certified for CPL/ME/IR training, but I don't know the specifics about this.
The maintenance organization we have is a separate "BV" (Ltd. in the UK), which is wholly owned by the club, but financially separate. They have paid staff and the club pays the maintenance organization for any work done. They also maintain a few non-club planes, and for historic reasons some club aircraft are maintained by another, commercial outfit on the field.
The bar is contracted out to a caterer.
A few members have aircraft of their own, which they make available for club use (typically for the complex and multi part of CPL training). As a courtesy, these planes are included in the reservations system as well, but the rules on usage/checkout etc. are set by the owner. The club, as a courtesy, will handle the invoicing for the plane rental, and I assume the club charges a small fee for that (on the order of 5 euros per flying hour or so).
All in all I think my club has struck a good balance. I have heard of clubs gone under because they were run as a commercial school by the CFI, leading to the situation where fresh PPLs would run away because they were not, for all practical purposes, welcome to rent planes there anymore - because the CFI did not make money from rental. I have heard commercial schools go under because they were too expensive. And I have heard clubs go under because they were not run professionally enough, leading to the situation where instructors could not count on having a somewhat decent stream of business and as a result offering their services elsewhere. Or the situation where flights were wrongly invoiced or not invoiced at all because the reception staff was made up of club "volunteers", who were forced to do reception duty once or twice a year.
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Thank you for that llooong reply, do you think that could work in the UK or is it more in keeping with Holland that seem to have a more laid back attitude to life than we have.
Is there anything you would like to see being done differently there?
Should add that in my experience of working in 12 schools/clubs, committee run clubs or autocratic owners had the lowest standards
Is there anything you would like to see being done differently there?
Should add that in my experience of working in 12 schools/clubs, committee run clubs or autocratic owners had the lowest standards
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If I owned a flying school, I would make sure students had a reason to stay once they have qualified, rather than moving to another club. For the first instance, I would make sure all the planes look good on the inside and out. Stripping down the club 172 and putting in new seats and windows will make a world of difference in my opinion. I would make sure that all training aircraft are of the 4-seat variety, so that students can jump in the back of eachothers lessons and learn topics which are further along their course, eg, taking a lowhour student up in the circuit before they join the circuit themselves should be a great help, plus it helps keep the club atmosphere so that students will have "flying partners" once they have qualified. So now that my 2 PA-28's and C172's are freshly painted and given new seats, I would give the students a retired-airline instructor or instructors who aren't going to buzz off to the airlines as soon as they have enough hours.
There would also be 3 aircraft which would be available for tuition and hire after the PPL
1. A 4-6 seater twin piston for advanced flying and multi-engine experience, IFR-equipped of course, for IMC, Multi and IFR training.
2. Full-aerobatic 2-seater (eg, Extra 300) for members who have their PPL and at least 75 hours P1 time. Students would be encouraged to enter competitions once they are suitable, with the club's logo on the side
3. An old, perhaps as old as WW1 plane, such as a Tiger Moth of Chipmunk, something with an element of aerobatic intrigue, to keep things interesting for students, because who woudn't want to fly a 70-year-old biplane?
The club would modern enough, with 1-2 operations staff, a computer and printer that lets members print off the weather and notams before flight.
Regular flyouts to foreign or exciting destinations will keep the members happy and feeling as though they have achieved something, which they will have.
Please send your CV's for instructor vacancies in about 12 years time, and I'll get back to you as soon as possible...
There would also be 3 aircraft which would be available for tuition and hire after the PPL
1. A 4-6 seater twin piston for advanced flying and multi-engine experience, IFR-equipped of course, for IMC, Multi and IFR training.
2. Full-aerobatic 2-seater (eg, Extra 300) for members who have their PPL and at least 75 hours P1 time. Students would be encouraged to enter competitions once they are suitable, with the club's logo on the side
3. An old, perhaps as old as WW1 plane, such as a Tiger Moth of Chipmunk, something with an element of aerobatic intrigue, to keep things interesting for students, because who woudn't want to fly a 70-year-old biplane?
The club would modern enough, with 1-2 operations staff, a computer and printer that lets members print off the weather and notams before flight.
Regular flyouts to foreign or exciting destinations will keep the members happy and feeling as though they have achieved something, which they will have.
Please send your CV's for instructor vacancies in about 12 years time, and I'll get back to you as soon as possible...
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I would like to send mine now!!!!!
You have reminded me that in most of the organisations i was involved in once the stude had the PPL it was goodbye. No wonder so many pack up!
I used to run fly ins(loose formation) to different airfields but its dificult to be CFI and get involved. I suppose this is where the Club is better. It is great to see a happy club where members are welcomed and encouraged. I used to get fed up saying to reception staff , "come on xxxx, say hello to the nice man" (and under my breath, that's paying our wages!!)
The one big black mark with a lot of schools is the total non welcome you get when you walk through the door. I took my son(by road) to Derby recently and they looked at us as if we had crawled out of cheese. They soon came out when we went upto one of the aircraft!
By the way I think you need more than just flying events, you need social events to maintain interest and of course they are a lot cheaper. Much more encouragemnet of cost sharing too but people need to know each other and be confident, thats were social events and good standards come in
You have reminded me that in most of the organisations i was involved in once the stude had the PPL it was goodbye. No wonder so many pack up!
I used to run fly ins(loose formation) to different airfields but its dificult to be CFI and get involved. I suppose this is where the Club is better. It is great to see a happy club where members are welcomed and encouraged. I used to get fed up saying to reception staff , "come on xxxx, say hello to the nice man" (and under my breath, that's paying our wages!!)
The one big black mark with a lot of schools is the total non welcome you get when you walk through the door. I took my son(by road) to Derby recently and they looked at us as if we had crawled out of cheese. They soon came out when we went upto one of the aircraft!
By the way I think you need more than just flying events, you need social events to maintain interest and of course they are a lot cheaper. Much more encouragemnet of cost sharing too but people need to know each other and be confident, thats were social events and good standards come in
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Well as a joint company it would have to be the Marijuana School of Flying.
Although i would like to point out I only do alcohol and if some of the posters on here are members, plenty of it!
Although i would like to point out I only do alcohol and if some of the posters on here are members, plenty of it!
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luigi_m. You've just described my club.
Well, almost. The airplane variety is a little different. With a fleet of C152, C172, PA28-161, PA28-181, DA-40, DR200-120, DR200-160, DR200-135CDI and a R2160 we have just about everything you might conceivably need as a PPL. Through club members we have access to an Arrow (for complex ratings) and a Seminole (I think) for multi-engine. The R2160 is of course used for aerobatics, including competition. We have a formation team that regularly flies 9-ship formations. The only thing missing, really, is some sort of tailwheel aircraft. Maybe a vintage aircraft or a CAP10C or something. And it would be nice to have one or two plastic fantastic, Rotax 912 powered two-seaters for very cheap touring.
Oh, and there are various club events throughout the year. Flyouts (Flying Legends @ Duxford), club weekends/weeks and a rally competition held throughout the year. Some club flights have been as far as the North Cape, to Lands End, Eastern Europe and to Morocco, and that's just the ones I know about. More locally, we have an annual Goodwill day where we take young patients from some nearby hospitals flying (last year we had close to 100 patients spread out over some 60 flights), we have the annual Open Day where people can get cheap trial lessons, flight sim events and the occasional party.
What is really, really important is that the people who "formally" run the place (the board or CFI) give others the freedom (and encouragement) to organise things. Don't try, as a CFI or other hotshot, to be involved in everything. Even people who barely have their PPL might be wizards at organizing things like charity flights, open days, flyouts etc. If you have a dozen or so enthousiast volunteers and you manage to keep them motivated, you've got a proper club.
Well, almost. The airplane variety is a little different. With a fleet of C152, C172, PA28-161, PA28-181, DA-40, DR200-120, DR200-160, DR200-135CDI and a R2160 we have just about everything you might conceivably need as a PPL. Through club members we have access to an Arrow (for complex ratings) and a Seminole (I think) for multi-engine. The R2160 is of course used for aerobatics, including competition. We have a formation team that regularly flies 9-ship formations. The only thing missing, really, is some sort of tailwheel aircraft. Maybe a vintage aircraft or a CAP10C or something. And it would be nice to have one or two plastic fantastic, Rotax 912 powered two-seaters for very cheap touring.
Oh, and there are various club events throughout the year. Flyouts (Flying Legends @ Duxford), club weekends/weeks and a rally competition held throughout the year. Some club flights have been as far as the North Cape, to Lands End, Eastern Europe and to Morocco, and that's just the ones I know about. More locally, we have an annual Goodwill day where we take young patients from some nearby hospitals flying (last year we had close to 100 patients spread out over some 60 flights), we have the annual Open Day where people can get cheap trial lessons, flight sim events and the occasional party.
What is really, really important is that the people who "formally" run the place (the board or CFI) give others the freedom (and encouragement) to organise things. Don't try, as a CFI or other hotshot, to be involved in everything. Even people who barely have their PPL might be wizards at organizing things like charity flights, open days, flyouts etc. If you have a dozen or so enthousiast volunteers and you manage to keep them motivated, you've got a proper club.
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The answer depends on how good the location is in terms of population wealth, and what the competition is.
Assuming loads of BMW Z4 owners, a nice clean airfield with a hard runway, and no other school around, there is no doubt that one would set up an upmarket flying club, well organised and with a pretty girl on the reception desk. And modern planes of course; none of the 1950s junk. Salaried instructors, no ATPL hour builders (some builders are good but they leave soon because they get jobs). Do the whole lot from PPL to IR.
But if - as is most likely - there will be local competition operating the usual knackered old junk, you will never make money because they will always undercut you and you will never achieve a dominant market share. Your only hope will be to draw in as much business as you can, hoping they will go bust. The trouble is that aviation is full of people who are willing to work for nothing and turn up and sit by the phone on an OVC002 day just in case a bunch from the local council estate book a pleasure flight (a "trial lesson"). So pushing the competition out could take years.
Also there are not many airfields in a good location that are not threatened with closure.
So, I don't think much can be done to improve matters.
Assuming loads of BMW Z4 owners, a nice clean airfield with a hard runway, and no other school around, there is no doubt that one would set up an upmarket flying club, well organised and with a pretty girl on the reception desk. And modern planes of course; none of the 1950s junk. Salaried instructors, no ATPL hour builders (some builders are good but they leave soon because they get jobs). Do the whole lot from PPL to IR.
But if - as is most likely - there will be local competition operating the usual knackered old junk, you will never make money because they will always undercut you and you will never achieve a dominant market share. Your only hope will be to draw in as much business as you can, hoping they will go bust. The trouble is that aviation is full of people who are willing to work for nothing and turn up and sit by the phone on an OVC002 day just in case a bunch from the local council estate book a pleasure flight (a "trial lesson"). So pushing the competition out could take years.
Also there are not many airfields in a good location that are not threatened with closure.
So, I don't think much can be done to improve matters.
Spoon PPRuNerist & Mad Inistrator
I think that you have to decide up front whether you are talking about a club or a flying school.
The latter is a business, not a charity, and the owner expects to make a profit / living out of it.
A club, on the other hand, can be operated basically as a non-profit-making organisation - insofar as the members can afford to keep it running.
SD
The latter is a business, not a charity, and the owner expects to make a profit / living out of it.
A club, on the other hand, can be operated basically as a non-profit-making organisation - insofar as the members can afford to keep it running.
SD
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Ive come across hybrids, clubs that were businesses owned by two directors in this instance but sort of run by a committee. I say sort of because the one director just overuled what he didnt like!
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I may have read through this a little too quickly but so far I haven't seen anyone mention activities to encourage people to be more safety conscious. I'm not just talking about trips to D&D etc but rather along the lines of Herefordshire Aero Club's policy of charging members only the PPL hire rate when undertaking further training such as IMC and Night Rating. As far as I am concerned this means it becomes affordable and should encourage people to do further training. They also have a nice little caravan site where I can park my tin tent whenever I'm down there.
They also have a nice little caravan site where I can park my tin tent whenever I'm down there.
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The ideal flying school would be a J3 Cub operated off a grass field, with no need to ever deal with the bureaucracy nor need any permission from same to teach flying.
No radio, no need to enter controlled airspace.....just teach hands and feet flying and good Airmanship.
No radio, no need to enter controlled airspace.....just teach hands and feet flying and good Airmanship.
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Chuck had a feeling you were gong to say that but I must insist we have Tiger Moths & Chipmunks after all we are British old chap (Well I am anyway)
What is it about grass runways, they just seem to make flying more relaxing.
HAC have some nice touches you have described two of them but that clubhouse needs sprucing up. If it was being run in a business like fashion it it would be completely redecorated. The bar is very uninviting and really scuffy and the toilets are disgraceful.
What is it about grass runways, they just seem to make flying more relaxing.
HAC have some nice touches you have described two of them but that clubhouse needs sprucing up. If it was being run in a business like fashion it it would be completely redecorated. The bar is very uninviting and really scuffy and the toilets are disgraceful.
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School for Perfection - Richard Bach
Say Chuck, you wouldn’t happen to be Drake, from the Richard Bach story ‘School for Perfection’ ?
Now that is the way to run a flying school.
Safe Flying,
Richard W.
Now that is the way to run a flying school.
Safe Flying,
Richard W.
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Have to say i would have thought you would have jumped in straight away with the time on the ground. Is it fair you pay for 20 minutes holding on the ground at the flying rate--I do not think so especially as the airframe and engine hours are taken from take off to landing.
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Chuck had a feeling you were gong to say that but I must insist we have Tiger Moths & Chipmunks after all we are British old chap (Well I am anyway)
The Tiger Moth belongs to me and once you learn to fly the Cub I'll check you out in the Moth.
The Chipmunk is just to modern so you will have to buy your own.
This is my garage at home......
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...h/P1010897.jpg
The Tiger Moth belongs to me and once you learn to fly the Cub I'll check you out in the Moth.
The Chipmunk is just to modern so you will have to buy your own.
This is my garage at home......
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...h/P1010897.jpg