Taking passengers flying as a Christmas present

[luigi_m_]

With the giving period coming up, a couple of my friends have asked me if I would do a flight for their parents as a gift. I currently rent a Cessna 172 from my local club and am happy to take passengers flying, but I wondered what implications there were to these actions.

First of all, as I am only a PPL, I realise that I cannot be paid for flying passengers, so would only charge my friends up to 100% of the operating costs of the aircraft for the time (rent, fuel, landing).

In regards to insurance, the club offers day insurance at £5 which I would include in the price of the flight and I would make the passengers aware f this.

As I am not an instructor, I would obviously fly the left hand seat and give the passengers a full safety briefing for pre-takeoff, takeoff, airbourne, landing, etc.

I promise to make it an enjoyable experience and promote GA as a safe and fun hobby.


Anything else I may need to add?

[Saab Dastard]

would only charge my friends up to 100% of the operating costs of the aircraft for the time (rent, fuel, landing).

You can't do that - at most, your passengers can contribute an equal share of the cost as you - e.g. if you have 2 passengers they can contribute at most 2/3 of the cost. You should get the passengers to settle the insurance cover separately with the club.

Also, you cannot accept any payment or expenses relating to the flight, other than the cost sharing above. Nor can you advertise the "service".

Otherwise, there is no problem with taking your friend's parents flying.

SD

[Sam Rutherford]

Brief them with a smile, take out the insurance and have fun.

If someone trys to 'come after you' because you may have done something only an FI or CPL should have done - then they obviously have far too much spare time and their job can probably be merged with somebody elses (who couldn't care tuppence about what you want to do!).

Now I'll duck for cover :)

Sam.

[Squawk7143]

Jeez...does anybody read airlaw anymore.....:rolleyes:

[llanfairpg]

Yes Squawk, Litigation Solicitors and Barristers do!

Cost SHARING is legal and there is no legal requirement for you to sit in the left seat, you could sit in the right hand seat if you wanted to but you would need to check with your CFI, it may require a check ride or be prohibited by the SO's. why bother anyway-pax will be happy in any seats.

Do consider your responsiblity to the pax in regard to safety briefings etc.

I would find another flying school if yours charges £5.00 per pax, like everything shop around, many make no charge

[Squawk7143]

Lanfairpg,

Ah humour.....:D

....and apparently PPL's do air law as well? No? or did you do your licence on another planet?

As for the RHS, I do not know so I will not comment other than to ask what an inexperienced PPL taking friends flying might do if he inadvertently got into cloud and needed instruments? :sad: ...ask a barrister perhaps?

[llanfairpg]

He would possibly do the same as an instructor would if sitting in the right hand seat, turn back or fly the aircraft with reference to the instruments in front of him. Its only when you sit in one of the front seats upside down that it gets confusing.

and apparently PPL's do air law as well? No? or did you do your licence on another planet?

No idea what you point is you asked if anyone reads air law anymore. Obviously on the planet you are on they do not.

[Mikehotel152]

Hey, No fair! :* That's my idea.

I had cunningly realised that I could save my precious pennies, avoid braving the pre-Christmas town centre, and give my family presents of vouchers entitling them to a flight with me.

Well, I figured, they have all said they'd love to come flying and I was already going to take them up for a jolly, and I have to spend money on hour-building anyway, so why not? I'm not going to fall foul of any law because I'm not charging them.

Everyone wins! :)

[llanfairpg]

Why not dress up as Father Christmas get upto a 1000 feet and say, "Hey anyone know how to fly an aircraft" It always goes down well!

[Squawk7143]

Outstanding !!! your a hoot, :D

Let me keep it simple then, cost sharing is covered in airlaw 101 for PPL's. Every PPL should know it without asking....that's my point.

As for your comment that inexperienced PPL's would do what an instructor would do ...eh? Well hey, . I'll be sure to tell every inexperienced PPL I meet that it's ok to fly from the RHS and just to do what an instructor would do.....if it doesn't work out call llanfairpg..:ok:

[luigi_m_]

Mikehotel, it wasn't actually my idea, one of my friends just wrote it on my Facebook page, and before I knew it, I had more requests

Saab, I'll take into consideration that passengers can only pay towards the cost of flying, eg, 2/3 in total, that is fine, as I'm happy to pay 1/3 of what I normally pay.

I'll think about the Father Christmas fancy dress idea, although I'm sure most people will waint to wait until March time to do the flying, so I'll wear an Easter Bunny outfir instead...

[llanfairpg]

Squawk Yes i would recommend you keep everything very simple.

Oh by the way have a look at air law especially the section that says it is the duty of a commander to check an intended route for the presence of IMC BEFORE flight.
Its not the seat that you sit in that makes you a commander its the attitude you arrive at the flying school with.

I have seen very experienced pilots/instructors continue into conditions that sensible inexperienced pilots would have turned back in. In fact I buried two of them at Elmdon Church 20 years ago. RIP Steve Harris and Nick Harper my best instructor and receptionist aged 21 and 19.

Inexperience with caution is better than experience with bravado, everytime

[Squawk7143]

llanfairPG....wow...you are taking this personally arent you?

So, weather doesn't change after take off then ?

Flying from the RHS is no different to flying from the left for an inexperieced pilot then ?

So it's about attitude when I turn up.... ??????????????????????:confused:


And I do not get the point of your comment about the accident 20 years ago other than that you obviously want to let me know what an experienced old hand you are..

yada yada yada....time to do something different:bored::confused:

[llanfairpg]

Your ignorance is sadly only exceeded by your ignorance

[radicalrabit]

Suppose I fly to where ever to conduct Diver training, in my (what ever it is I buy) that I pay for and three divers say "can we come with you ?" and just get in providing their kit isnt going to be a problem weight wise. What is wrong with that?
Its not costing me anything as I was going anyway and they had the opportunity to fly BA or cheap air if they wanted to.. ?

Then whats the difference if six of them turn up and I have a big enough what ever to throw them all in? I am not charging them for coming with me and they dont have to pay if they dont want to but can if they like contribute but as I am going anyway it doesnt really matter..or does it? I would really like some (sensible) answers.....

[Squawk7143]

PG,

Nop, I made a straightforward comment, you made some pronouncements and when I asked prefectly valid questions you 1. took the hump and 2. strayed from the point in my view.

I did not take your sarcasm, deal with it.... not ignorance , just a discussion, sorry if you cannot deal with someone who doesn't happen to agree with you. Frankly I think you have made an argument out of nothing.

[Sam Rutherford]

1. Perhaps Squawk and PG could start a new thread to bash each other in? - er, just a thought. :p

Radical Rabbit, whilst they pay nothing - you are okay. Whilst they pay their share of direct costs you are okay (ie 3/4, 5/6 or 129/130 dependant on the size of your aircraft?!).

In reality, if you choose to ask the 5 of them to cover the full cost of the flight - and you go for free - then you are unlikely to go to prison but it is not permitted.

I (ahem, occasionally) drive my car in excess of the speed limit, that is a risk I assess and take.

The rule exists to prevent PPLs flying commercially - I don't see that either you or Luigi M are planning on doing that.

It's ultimately up to you, assess and decide.

Sam.

[BackPacker]

Radical, don't forget that compressed gas cylinders are by default forbidden on aircraft unless non-pressurized. There are exceptions, but diving cylinders are not one of them.

Agreed, has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but since you brought up the divers, I thought I'd mention it anyway.

[dublinpilot]

Sam,

The cost sharing rules in the UK, only allow for up to 4 people. You can't cost share between 6 people.

dp

[Gertrude the Wombat]

wrote it on my Facebook page, and before I knew it, I had more requests
Whoops! - illegal advertising of cost sharing flights anyone?

[Mikehotel152]

Surely having a Facebook account is a serious offence in itself?! :eek:

Mind you my Facebook account gets plenty of use...

[llanfairpg]

Squawk the comment that you made was that a pilot should already know about cost sharing as he has completed an aviation law exam to hold a PPL.

In my opinion that type of attitude is not only very condescending, smug and arrogant but totally unnecessary and does nothing towards fostering a helpful informative forum where pilots can seek advice.

You also stated that you were not sure if a pilot could fly in command from the right hand seat. In that assumption, which is widely held you are incorrect, and I have had this discussion with many self appointed experts over the last 30 years.

You also made comments about what the pilot would do if he got caught out in bad weather. I am making the assumption that sensible pilots who arrive at the aerodrome with the right attitude do not choose to fly in marginal weather. Weather does not suddenly arrive and envelope you when you on take off, apart from in fairy stories.

A PPL should be flying passengers as a Christmas present in VMC, if VMC doesn’t exist and is not forecast to exist don’t go flying and then you wont get caught out, its not rocket science.

In my experience of flying of nearly 20,000 hours from instructing from Jersey --Sumburgh and operating commercially from Greenland to Algeria the only few times I have got caught out is when I have broken the rules and most of those occasions were as a low hour instructor in Scotland.

I have nothing to deal with (your comment) and its people like yourself who make me very glad I am no longer involved with PPL training

[J.A.F.O.]

Luigi

Not sure you've quite got it, yet.

Saab, I'll take into consideration that passengers can only pay towards the cost of flying, eg, 2/3 in total, that is fine, as I'm happy to pay 1/3 of what I normally pay.


If you have 1 pax you must pay at least half, 2 pax means a third and 3 pax a quarter.

Just wanted to make sure it was clear.

I don't even know what a facebook is.

[englishal]

So what I would do is....

Take them flying and have a good time...Pay for everything myself..

Assuming we make it back in one piece........if my mate happens to want to bung me a few hundred quid as a belated Christmas present, nothing to do with flying, then so be it ;)

[J.A.F.O.]

I take people flying for nothing but accept donations in the form of beer.

[Squawk7143]

PG,

I think everyone has had enough of this don't you ?

But for the record, I think you need to read the post again

"You also stated that you were not sure if a pilot could fly in command from the right hand seat. In that assumption, which is widely held you are incorrect, and I have had this discussion with many self appointed experts over the last 30 years."

No I did not, I said I did not know and would not comment

"You also made comments about what the pilot would do if he got caught out in bad weather. I am making the assumption that sensible pilots who arrive at the aerodrome with the right attitude do not choose to fly in marginal weather. Weather does not suddenly arrive and envelope you when you on take off, apart from in fairy stories."

No I did not, I asked how an inexperienced PPL would cope from the RHS if he needed instruments in say cloud.

IHMO most inexperienced PPLs would struggle from the LHS with passengers on board. Imagine the problem looking across from the right seat.

As for the rest, I have to say I share your view, I too am glad that you are no longer in the PPL world.

Now unless you feel compelled to have the last word ( and I am sure you will ) let this be an end to our discussion.:bored:

[rsuggitt]

"With the giving period coming up, a couple of my friends have asked me if I would do a flight for their parents as a gift."

Hi Luigi,

It's fun to fly with passengers, but just to share some experiences.... many people have said that they'd like to come flying with me.....
But it's sometimes difficult to co-ordinate dates/times/planes....
Some people will drop everything if I say 'I've got a plane on such and such a date, do you want to come'
Others will tell me that they have to go shopping or were going to meet friends.
Sometimes I've asked people to tell me when they are free so that Ican try to book a plane on that date, but often I dont get a definite reply.

The first lot are usually real fun to take flying, they usually really enjoy it.

The others often mean it when they first say it, but I think they then get cold feet when they realise that it can really happen.

May I suggest ... if people dont make an effort to make time to come flying with you, dont keep calling them, it's a waste of time.

R

[llanfairpg]

Squawk --Amen

I think yes you might have had enough of it, no one else is interested in what you have to say.

If you feel pilots should already know the answer to the questions they are posing on this forum I suggest you stick to watching CBBC because that attitude is not whats needed on a forum.

Make a contribution other than a criticism of the original post and you will not attract criticism of your ego..

Note to moderator

I think people who criticise people for making a post rather than just helping them with it should be removed from this forum

[Mikehotel152]

I agreed with llanfairpg! :D

[llanfairpg]

Luigi --You said

I promise to make it an enjoyable experience and promote GA as a safe and fun hobby.

Anything else I may need to add?

I would just like to add that I think that is a lovely attitude

[Human Factor]

I take people flying for nothing but accept donations in the form of beer.

I like to think of it more as a free gift. :ok:

[radicalrabit]

Does this mean I can only take 4 or that only four can contribute to the costs ? Just a matter of interest .. anyone? I am sure there is a verbatim quote out there somewhere...