Where do you join crosswind?

[Mikehotel152]

At circuit height over the upwind numbers?

or

At circuit height where you anticipate aircraft will be turning crosswind after take off?

or

Somewhere else?

Eagerly looking forward to the usual flood of interesting responses! :)

[Vlad the Imbiber]

G-EMMA: That CAA diagram shows how to fly an overhead join. But the leg marked on it as "crosswind" is in fact not the true crosswind leg for a full circuit (i.e. one flown from the ground). I think the original post may be asking how do you join crosswind, if (say) you're approaching the field from the deadside and don't intend to fly a full o/h join.

[tigerbatics]

Always over the up-wind numbers. To do anything else is very dangerous and increases the chances of a mid-air with circuit traffic. And NEVER ever where you guess aircraft will be turning cross wind after take off.

[englishal]

Upwind numbers at circuit height without a doubt. That way anyone departing is hopefully below you, and you can slot into the circuit behind anyon already on downwind....Joining at CROSSWIND and you could easily smack into someone departing.....

[Tony Hirst]

I agree with G-EMMA, the crosswind join is as described on the CAA OHJ poster. As recently pointed out to me, the only problem with the poster is the start of the OHJ should be probably over the downwind numbers, not off to the side as it appears to show.

The only additional consideration is the length of the runway. If long, then the airfield may require you to bisect the runway for the reason that English Al identified.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

It should put me well above anyone taking off (though I would have watch out for what was going on).
I've had ATC hold a jet on line up on the runway until my crosswind join was well clear of the take-off path. I'm slightly surprised I wasn't asked to orbit somewhere on the dead side, it would have saved the jet a lot more in fuel than the orbit would have cost me.

[Tone]

Sadly the CAA drawing is missing a slight detail and that's the path of aircraft doing circuits. I have seen lots of conflicts between joining aircraft crossing the numbers and turning downwind and circuit bashing traffic already on their downwind leg. What is the general opinion about the best action to take if this happens.

Plan to go behind the aircraft already on the downwing leg? Even if this means you end up going 'upwind' (If you see what I mean)?

Add power and go over the top?

Thoughts anyone?

[Mikehotel152]

Thanks for the responses. I'm glad to hear that you all join over the upwind numbers because that is the way I was taught and have done ever since the early days of my PPL. :ok:

The catalyst for my question was a recent experience when joining crosswind which had the potential to be the situation Tone describes, so I'd be interested in your further thoughts.

[englishal]

Plan to go behind the aircraft already on the downwing leg? Even if this means you end up going 'upwind' (If you see what I mean)?
I'd plan to go behind if they were already on downwind..... I'd also be keeping an ear open and eyes open to other traffice from when I commenced the join...so hopefully should have a good picture of what is going on.

If it all goes to sh*te you could break away in the direction of circuit traffic back to the "dead side" and start again assuming there is no one else joining overhead :)

[Mikehotel152]

I suppose prevention is better than cure, but if you haven't been paying due attention to traffic already in the circuit when you cross those numbers, and there is a genuine risk of collision when you arrive at your turning point for the downwind leg, I would take any prompt action necessary to avoid the collision even if it risked flying temporarily the wrong way up the circuit, assuming, of course, that you immediately turn back after passing the other aircraft so as to minimise the risk to other aircraft in the circuit.

[tigerbatics]

Never fly 'up wind' whatever the situation. There is no conflict between joining traffic and circuit traffic merely a situation where there is a need to fit in.

How you fit in depends on the circumstances and the aeroplane types involved; their respective speeds and positions in relation to the runway and your own handling skills. There is no one answer.

If there is full ATC they will have a say as well!

[Mikehotel152]

"Never fly upwind" Tigerbatics?

I will happilly stand corrected on this, but as far as I can see ICAO Annex 2 simply says "on the right, in the right" and we're told not to pass under or over the aircraft with right of way. That leaves two options, turn left or right.

Turning left would seem to make the collision his problem as he becomes the overtaking aircraft and has to avoid running up your chuff, but you would then lose sight of the other aircraft, and I'm not sure the CAA would be sympathetic if he can't avoiding hitting you and the full circumstances come to light at a later date.

Turning right seems to follow the normal rules, although you might lose sight of him, and you would be wise to make an immediate left turn to avoid other upwind aircraft and then leave the circuit (and collect your wits from beneath your seat) or make a full 180 so you're heading downwind (and then collect your wits from beneath your seat)!

So which is it?:confused:

[englishal]

I would never fly "upwind" on downwind but would adjust my heading and speed on the crosswind leg to ensure I'd arrive behind the other traffic. If this is not possible, or dangerous due to additional traffic I may bug out and turn back into the dead side. (but in this case I probably wasn't paying proper attention)...

[llanfairpg]

There is no correct line to join a circuit crosswind. Stating that you always cross at the numbers suggests ‘bible of fool’s mentality’. The best place to cross is based on your judgement of where you want to turn downwind in the circuit and the pattern you want to fly from that point. Careful analysis of traffic in the ATZ using the radio and lookout may also cause modification of this line. I personally want to be on the line that everyone else is not taking having had a couple of near misses on the dead side. Many pilots are still descending on the crosswind leg and if you all take the same line guess what the outcome may be!
Flying a straight line in my opinion is fraught with danger on the dead side, try keeping the straight line bit to a minimum, make plenty of wing dips to clear the blind spots too.
Constrained rule based procedure is great in the classroom but flexible best practice based on current situation is superior in the air

[tigerbatics]

In general here I agree with Englishal in particular where similar aeroplane types are concerned.

[tigerbatics]

Ilanfairpg, Granted, but the important point is never to cross an active circuit crosswind at a point that traffic taking off will have arrived at.

Descending dead side obviously should be in a curve and if the runway is long a crosswind join downwind of the numbers, and by some way, may be correct. Upwind never is.

People also fly non radio.

[llanfairpg]

Ilanfairpg, Granted, but the important point is never to cross an active circuit crosswind at a point that traffic taking off will have arrived at.

If you look out the window and have a flexible plan you never will. Using the method desrcibed by some on here you have to cross at the numbers so if the aircraft that is taking off reaches your height and position over the numbers you collide, using my method you are not constrained to a particular crossing point only by the traffic you can see and hear. Besides how do you know what height an aircraft will reach by the end of the runway, too many variable factors here to make a sensible early judgement.

Upwind runway joins are quite permissable in some situations, your join is constrained by the ATZ not by folklore

Its bad judgement to cross a runway centreline at any point when an aircraft is below you and climbing on that centreline. Its completely avoidable by early planning and not sticking to a infelexible rigid course

[TheOddOne]

Descend on the deadside as I approached be at circuit height for the numbers unless someone tells me that is wrong? It should put me well above anyone taking off (though I would have watch out for what was going on).

I was given a h*ll of a telling off for doing that once at an airfield with a fairly long runway on the basis that some high-performance a/c at that field would be at circuit height by that point. Soooo...I started crossing riunways from the deadside nearer to the middle of the downwind leg, same level as any downwind traffic so I can integrate with them.

Now, I've recently had to start flying into a larger GA field with an 1800M runway that demands joins from the deadside overhead the upwind numbers. When I pointed out the potential danger here, I discover that they have a departure procedure where a/c have to maintain not above 500' AGL until beyond the upwind end. IMHO, it would be simpler and easier and make the downwind leg a whole lot shorter and quicker to get inbounds to join downwind from the midpoint. Mind you, they also expect you to take the downwind leg practically into the zone of the next aerodrome to the North, so there's probably no hope.

TheOddOne

[vee-tail-1]

Hmnn
Please don't try an overhead join at an uncontrolled a/f in France. By use of the unicom 123.5 you are supposed to have ascertained r/w in use, wind direction, and circuit traffic. You then join at cct height at the extended upwind end of the downwind leg. Never try to join crosswind, could be arrested for dangerous flying when you get on the ground. Having said that I guess it's OK to overfly the a/f at a safe height to check r/w etc. But please NO OVERHEAD JOINS.

"DGAC Order of 17th July 1992"
"Joining the circuit at a non-controlled airfield is to be effected:
At the start of the downwind leg.
At the circuit height of the airfield.
And assuring visual separation from other aircraft in the circuit, and giving them priority.
This order assumes that before it is complied with, the PIC has determined the landing direction in use at the airfield. DGAC has observed this order being ignored by some pilots, who join the cct in the middle of the downwind leg, or base leg, or direct in on long finals."

Guess EASA will eventually bring this in and goodby our standard O/H join

[whitehorse]

Some airfields demand an overhead join at 1500ft and let down on the crosswind leg to 1000ft QFE eg EGMD. Check the AIP before departure and don't assume all airfields have a standard overhead join.;)

[ShyTorque]

I always look before crossing the road. I always look before joining the circuit. If an aircraft is climbing in the circuit, he has right of way. If there is any chance that I may cut in front of him onto the downwind leg, I would extend upwind and go behind him. There is no problem extending upwind to do so. There is also no problem in using the radio to announce it, btw!

Imagine two high wing aircraft, one joining, one climbing. The pilot of the one climbing will be blind to one above and to his left, especially if that aircraft is slightly behind (and catching up due to higher airspeed). The one joining and turning crosswind will be blind to aircraft below and on his right....

To risk cutting in front of an aircraft already in the circuit, to some "pre-programmed" standard pattern, with no flexibility or forethought is terrible airmanship.

[DFC]

Everything works best for a left hand circuit.

The aircraft should join the circuit from the deadside by crossing the runway at the upwind end or close to that point over the upwind half of the runway.

There is no failsafe route.

While descending deadside, the pilot should have a good view of the aircraft in the circuit and on the ground departing.

In many cases it is not the departing aircraft which is the problem it is the one on final that makes a missed approach which can cause the most interesting situation.

One of the reasons for crossing at the upwind end is that everyone knows where to look to spot the aircraft.

As with the rest of VFR flying spot other aircraft and help them to spot you.

Regards,

DFC

[Mikehotel152]

It seems the consensus of opinon is to check Pooleys beforehand for joining instructions, keep your eyes open and adapt your join to the circuit as you find it. Good advice. Sadly, often the one thing people fail to do :*!

IMHO the average GA airfield has a relatively short, say 800m, runway and that would suggest to me that crossing the upwind numbers at circuit height is a sensible plan in the absence of contrary instructions.

Where you have longer runways - say the 1800m referred to above - crossing the upwind numbers seems problematic and crossing somewhere between mid-point and the upwind end might be a good idea! In any event, I would have thought that airfields with runways of that size are likely to be bigger GA or Commercial hubs which have ATC and specific joining instructions.

Anyway, thanks for all the thoughts Ladies and Gentlemen. :ok:

[Mikehotel152]

Yeah G-EMMA, it's always good to stick your neck out and ask these questions. What have you got to lose?!

I often found when training and now that I'm still on relatively low hours, that the books and FIs don't teach you everything - far from it - and as I don't personally have a whole lot of different experiences to draw on when faced with new situations, I open my gob without hesitation. It also pays to ask questions on PPRUNE even when you think you know the answer. Sometimes you may look daft, sometimes not...

On the flip side, it's sad that some people take unsavoury delight in putting you down when you do that. :( But there are some lovely, helpful people on here too :D

[eltonioni]

Trying to second guess the take off and climb performance of other aircraft sounds ridiculous to me. If you cross over the numbers you are where you are supposed to be, and more importantly where you are expected to be by anyone taking off.

[vee-tail-1]

Le Touquet summer before last. I am climbing out and am over the numbers at 500 + feet. A pair of G registered Cherokees appear from my right side apparently joining crosswind and pass just over my head. I hope they were arrested on landing and instructed in the French way of joining a circuit.
Why do we continue to teach and use in UK the "standard overhead join", it has only one advantage.. at least you will be close to a fire truck when you have your midair over the numbers! :}

[Mikehotel152]

Because this is the UK and we are stuck in our ways...:rolleyes:

e.g. flying in Vics during the Battle of Britain.

[Kirstey]

One does need to be flexible.. but 99% of the time, flying over the upwind numbers works. It also gives a fixed point to check for other traffic joining crosswind. If one of you is over the numbers and someone else mid runway, it could all end up in a mess. If everyone is aiming for the numbers then it reduces confusing and helps spot traffic.

If there's a Cub on the runway, just be very careful!

[tigerbatics]

The standard overhead join goes back to a time when almost all flights were non-radio. The signal square gave the required information which could be given in no other way. Hence overhead above circuit height to read it and descend etc..

There is still alot of non radio flying, more I suspect than many realise, and long may it continue. It really is the best way to fly and far more enjoyable. A good case can be made that it is safer too; but I won't go there.

[ShyTorque]

I still say look out of the window, use the radio where appropriate (listen out, build a picture of traffic but always watch out for the one not calling, for what ever reason, either a non-radio equipped aircraft, or one who forgot to call) and always be flexible and fit into existing circuit traffic because they have right of way. To assume that a join must always be over the upwind numbers, irrespective of traffic climbing in the circuit, is absurd and goes against common sense, as well as the rules.

The climb performance of some aircraft most definitely means they will be at least 1000 feet agl by the time they reach the upwind end even at the shortest of runways.

Consider this, if a mid air collision were to take place, between an aircraft in the circuit or one joining, who would take the blame?

[llanfairpg]

Consider this, if a mid air collision were to take place, between an aircraft in the circuit or one joining, who would take the blame?

Intersting point but it would be the rules of the air that would decide it not the fact that one is in the circuit and one is joining.

[znww5]

I'm sure this experience is not unique and as it is related to OHJ's it seems reasonable to post here.

Having called finals at an AFISO airfield, an aircraft which was already lined up decided to take-off. I continued the approach with the intention to go-around if I wasn't happy with the separation and as expected, I had to make the go-around call.

I started re-configuring the aircraft and commencing the climb on the dead side, aiming to level off at circuit height whilst remaining visual with the departing aircraft.

At this point, around about the centre of the runway, I noticed an OHJ aircraft approaching from the dead side, on a descending track which actually would take him just below me as long as I maintained the climb. In the event I had to maintain the climb to above circuit height in order to increase the separation.


So here are the questions:

1. Apart from calling 'short final' was there anything else I could have done better? (More concerned with ANC at the time!)

2. If OHJ traffic conflicts with an aircraft going around, is it the case that the go-around traffic has precedence?

I realise that the name of the game is avoidance, but any informed and constructive comments are most welcome :ok:

[digital.poet]

On the point of 'sticking to a rigid plan' rather than adapting to the situation....

The airfield where I am training does not allow standard overhead joins due to helicopter traffic and those fools who like to jump out of perfectly servicable aircraft operating on the dead side (although whether you could describe the jump plane as 'servicable' is a point open for debate!).

At one point in my training I listened to a incoming pilot 'request' (quoted due to A/G service at airfield) a standard overhead join three times, and be told three times to join downwind. Even as an 8 hours student I was sitting listening in horror.

To be honest, I am not even sure what happens here, presumably as the radio station is A/G they cannot enforce this policy if the pilot is bloody-minded enough to insist on the overhead join. He would probably do well to avoid the operators if he did though :E

[ShyTorque]

Intersting point but it would be the rules of the air that would decide it not the fact that one is in the circuit and one is joining.

Arguably quite so. In the OHJ situation, it could be argued that a joining aircraft is attempting to overtake one established in the pattern and climbing to circuit height. The joining pilot must therefore overtake on the right, i.e. for the normal left hand circuit, pass further upwind.

znww5,

The other aircraft joining, had he been aware of your presence, had two options. He could have either stopped his descent to circuit height and continued circling to space behind you, or he could have slackened his turn to pass behind you, which would have meant he merely had a slightly longer downwind leg. He obviously didn't consider either, effectively leaving you no option but to leave the circuit by climbing above the height of the pattern. Poor airmanship on his part.

[llanfairpg]

I would look at the ANO Rules of the Air Sec 2 page 9
13-6

[ShyTorque]

CAP 393 Air Navigation: The Order and the Regulations
Section 2 Page 9
(6) Subject to paragraphs (2), (3) and (4), if two or more flying machines, gliders or airships are
approaching any place for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude shall have the
right-of-way.

Yes, the joining aircraft falls foul of that one too; unless you mean it's acceptable to join at low level and barge in? No, I'm sure you don't! :)

[llanfairpg]

No I have my ANO--it goes something like this.

PPLs are dangerous in the circuit at any altitude. Whether in my Airbus or a C152 i am scared and I take as many precautions as possible to avoid encounters including non- folk lore patterns if required. (I like PPLs on the ground and in the bar, they are quite safe then)

To be more serious it sounds like the ANO is saying if you join at 500 feet you have right of way over everyone except those established on finals. I like it!

[ShyTorque]

To be even more serious, I think it means that if two aircraft appear on finals together, the lower one has right of way.

I think it's better to stick to basic airmanship rather than trying to find clever new ways to interpret what the ANO says.

[llanfairpg]

Oh thats not nice I was just beginning to like you!

[znww5]

Yes and the CAP extract in #43 is often used by the 'cutting-in' fraternity to justify their lack of airmanship - drives me nuts :ugh:

[ShyTorque]

llanfairpg,
No offence meant! I had assumed you were joking.... especially from your comment about ppls :p

[llanfairpg]

No offence taken!!!

I love PPLs but experience brings skill, knowledge, relaxation and confidence which is a great help in a busy circuit. We all know that the PPL enviroment is a very wide belt of experience and having spent many 1000s of hours sitting by students and PPLs in circuits I know that some do not have the lookout skills they should have. What is more worrying is that some, possibly due to poor instruction, are not seemingly aware of the increased risk of collision inside an ATZ.

All the above mean that when i join a circuit ,I am concerned for my saferty and that of my passengers and will manoerve my a/c as appropriate, I cannot guarantee this will in accordance with the ANO, i would like to think it would be. What i can guarantee is that it will not be in accordance with fok lore which gives us what I call 'flying by numbers' such as square circuits, 1000 feet circuit height, always climb straight ahead. never turn back after EFATO, always join overhead etc etc