Where do you join crosswind?
Thread Starter
Where do you join crosswind?
At circuit height over the upwind numbers?
or
At circuit height where you anticipate aircraft will be turning crosswind after take off?
or
Somewhere else?
Eagerly looking forward to the usual flood of interesting responses!
or
At circuit height where you anticipate aircraft will be turning crosswind after take off?
or
Somewhere else?
Eagerly looking forward to the usual flood of interesting responses!
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G-EMMA: That CAA diagram shows how to fly an overhead join. But the leg marked on it as "crosswind" is in fact not the true crosswind leg for a full circuit (i.e. one flown from the ground). I think the original post may be asking how do you join crosswind, if (say) you're approaching the field from the deadside and don't intend to fly a full o/h join.
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Always over the up-wind numbers. To do anything else is very dangerous and increases the chances of a mid-air with circuit traffic. And NEVER ever where you guess aircraft will be turning cross wind after take off.
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Upwind numbers at circuit height without a doubt. That way anyone departing is hopefully below you, and you can slot into the circuit behind anyon already on downwind....Joining at CROSSWIND and you could easily smack into someone departing.....
Formerly HWD
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I agree with G-EMMA, the crosswind join is as described on the CAA OHJ poster. As recently pointed out to me, the only problem with the poster is the start of the OHJ should be probably over the downwind numbers, not off to the side as it appears to show.
The only additional consideration is the length of the runway. If long, then the airfield may require you to bisect the runway for the reason that English Al identified.
The only additional consideration is the length of the runway. If long, then the airfield may require you to bisect the runway for the reason that English Al identified.
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It should put me well above anyone taking off (though I would have watch out for what was going on).
Sadly the CAA drawing is missing a slight detail and that's the path of aircraft doing circuits. I have seen lots of conflicts between joining aircraft crossing the numbers and turning downwind and circuit bashing traffic already on their downwind leg. What is the general opinion about the best action to take if this happens.
Plan to go behind the aircraft already on the downwing leg? Even if this means you end up going 'upwind' (If you see what I mean)?
Add power and go over the top?
Thoughts anyone?
Plan to go behind the aircraft already on the downwing leg? Even if this means you end up going 'upwind' (If you see what I mean)?
Add power and go over the top?
Thoughts anyone?
Thread Starter
Thanks for the responses. I'm glad to hear that you all join over the upwind numbers because that is the way I was taught and have done ever since the early days of my PPL. 
The catalyst for my question was a recent experience when joining crosswind which had the potential to be the situation Tone describes, so I'd be interested in your further thoughts.
The catalyst for my question was a recent experience when joining crosswind which had the potential to be the situation Tone describes, so I'd be interested in your further thoughts.
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Plan to go behind the aircraft already on the downwing leg? Even if this means you end up going 'upwind' (If you see what I mean)?
If it all goes to sh*te you could break away in the direction of circuit traffic back to the "dead side" and start again assuming there is no one else joining overhead
Thread Starter
I suppose prevention is better than cure, but if you haven't been paying due attention to traffic already in the circuit when you cross those numbers, and there is a genuine risk of collision when you arrive at your turning point for the downwind leg, I would take any prompt action necessary to avoid the collision even if it risked flying temporarily the wrong way up the circuit, assuming, of course, that you immediately turn back after passing the other aircraft so as to minimise the risk to other aircraft in the circuit.
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Never fly 'up wind' whatever the situation. There is no conflict between joining traffic and circuit traffic merely a situation where there is a need to fit in.
How you fit in depends on the circumstances and the aeroplane types involved; their respective speeds and positions in relation to the runway and your own handling skills. There is no one answer.
If there is full ATC they will have a say as well!
How you fit in depends on the circumstances and the aeroplane types involved; their respective speeds and positions in relation to the runway and your own handling skills. There is no one answer.
If there is full ATC they will have a say as well!
Thread Starter
"Never fly upwind" Tigerbatics?
I will happilly stand corrected on this, but as far as I can see ICAO Annex 2 simply says "on the right, in the right" and we're told not to pass under or over the aircraft with right of way. That leaves two options, turn left or right.
Turning left would seem to make the collision his problem as he becomes the overtaking aircraft and has to avoid running up your chuff, but you would then lose sight of the other aircraft, and I'm not sure the CAA would be sympathetic if he can't avoiding hitting you and the full circumstances come to light at a later date.
Turning right seems to follow the normal rules, although you might lose sight of him, and you would be wise to make an immediate left turn to avoid other upwind aircraft and then leave the circuit (and collect your wits from beneath your seat) or make a full 180 so you're heading downwind (and then collect your wits from beneath your seat)!
So which is it?
I will happilly stand corrected on this, but as far as I can see ICAO Annex 2 simply says "on the right, in the right" and we're told not to pass under or over the aircraft with right of way. That leaves two options, turn left or right.
Turning left would seem to make the collision his problem as he becomes the overtaking aircraft and has to avoid running up your chuff, but you would then lose sight of the other aircraft, and I'm not sure the CAA would be sympathetic if he can't avoiding hitting you and the full circumstances come to light at a later date.
Turning right seems to follow the normal rules, although you might lose sight of him, and you would be wise to make an immediate left turn to avoid other upwind aircraft and then leave the circuit (and collect your wits from beneath your seat) or make a full 180 so you're heading downwind (and then collect your wits from beneath your seat)!
So which is it?
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I would never fly "upwind" on downwind but would adjust my heading and speed on the crosswind leg to ensure I'd arrive behind the other traffic. If this is not possible, or dangerous due to additional traffic I may bug out and turn back into the dead side. (but in this case I probably wasn't paying proper attention)...
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There is no correct line to join a circuit crosswind. Stating that you always cross at the numbers suggests ‘bible of fool’s mentality’. The best place to cross is based on your judgement of where you want to turn downwind in the circuit and the pattern you want to fly from that point. Careful analysis of traffic in the ATZ using the radio and lookout may also cause modification of this line. I personally want to be on the line that everyone else is not taking having had a couple of near misses on the dead side. Many pilots are still descending on the crosswind leg and if you all take the same line guess what the outcome may be!
Flying a straight line in my opinion is fraught with danger on the dead side, try keeping the straight line bit to a minimum, make plenty of wing dips to clear the blind spots too.
Constrained rule based procedure is great in the classroom but flexible best practice based on current situation is superior in the air
Flying a straight line in my opinion is fraught with danger on the dead side, try keeping the straight line bit to a minimum, make plenty of wing dips to clear the blind spots too.
Constrained rule based procedure is great in the classroom but flexible best practice based on current situation is superior in the air
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Ilanfairpg, Granted, but the important point is never to cross an active circuit crosswind at a point that traffic taking off will have arrived at.
Descending dead side obviously should be in a curve and if the runway is long a crosswind join downwind of the numbers, and by some way, may be correct. Upwind never is.
People also fly non radio.
Descending dead side obviously should be in a curve and if the runway is long a crosswind join downwind of the numbers, and by some way, may be correct. Upwind never is.
People also fly non radio.
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Ilanfairpg, Granted, but the important point is never to cross an active circuit crosswind at a point that traffic taking off will have arrived at.
If you look out the window and have a flexible plan you never will. Using the method desrcibed by some on here you have to cross at the numbers so if the aircraft that is taking off reaches your height and position over the numbers you collide, using my method you are not constrained to a particular crossing point only by the traffic you can see and hear. Besides how do you know what height an aircraft will reach by the end of the runway, too many variable factors here to make a sensible early judgement.
Upwind runway joins are quite permissable in some situations, your join is constrained by the ATZ not by folklore
Its bad judgement to cross a runway centreline at any point when an aircraft is below you and climbing on that centreline. Its completely avoidable by early planning and not sticking to a infelexible rigid course
If you look out the window and have a flexible plan you never will. Using the method desrcibed by some on here you have to cross at the numbers so if the aircraft that is taking off reaches your height and position over the numbers you collide, using my method you are not constrained to a particular crossing point only by the traffic you can see and hear. Besides how do you know what height an aircraft will reach by the end of the runway, too many variable factors here to make a sensible early judgement.
Upwind runway joins are quite permissable in some situations, your join is constrained by the ATZ not by folklore
Its bad judgement to cross a runway centreline at any point when an aircraft is below you and climbing on that centreline. Its completely avoidable by early planning and not sticking to a infelexible rigid course
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Descend on the deadside as I approached be at circuit height for the numbers unless someone tells me that is wrong? It should put me well above anyone taking off (though I would have watch out for what was going on).
Now, I've recently had to start flying into a larger GA field with an 1800M runway that demands joins from the deadside overhead the upwind numbers. When I pointed out the potential danger here, I discover that they have a departure procedure where a/c have to maintain not above 500' AGL until beyond the upwind end. IMHO, it would be simpler and easier and make the downwind leg a whole lot shorter and quicker to get inbounds to join downwind from the midpoint. Mind you, they also expect you to take the downwind leg practically into the zone of the next aerodrome to the North, so there's probably no hope.
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Hmnn
Please don't try an overhead join at an uncontrolled a/f in France. By use of the unicom 123.5 you are supposed to have ascertained r/w in use, wind direction, and circuit traffic. You then join at cct height at the extended upwind end of the downwind leg. Never try to join crosswind, could be arrested for dangerous flying when you get on the ground. Having said that I guess it's OK to overfly the a/f at a safe height to check r/w etc. But please NO OVERHEAD JOINS.
"DGAC Order of 17th July 1992"
"Joining the circuit at a non-controlled airfield is to be effected:
At the start of the downwind leg.
At the circuit height of the airfield.
And assuring visual separation from other aircraft in the circuit, and giving them priority.
This order assumes that before it is complied with, the PIC has determined the landing direction in use at the airfield. DGAC has observed this order being ignored by some pilots, who join the cct in the middle of the downwind leg, or base leg, or direct in on long finals."
Guess EASA will eventually bring this in and goodby our standard O/H join
Please don't try an overhead join at an uncontrolled a/f in France. By use of the unicom 123.5 you are supposed to have ascertained r/w in use, wind direction, and circuit traffic. You then join at cct height at the extended upwind end of the downwind leg. Never try to join crosswind, could be arrested for dangerous flying when you get on the ground. Having said that I guess it's OK to overfly the a/f at a safe height to check r/w etc. But please NO OVERHEAD JOINS.
"DGAC Order of 17th July 1992"
"Joining the circuit at a non-controlled airfield is to be effected:
At the start of the downwind leg.
At the circuit height of the airfield.
And assuring visual separation from other aircraft in the circuit, and giving them priority.
This order assumes that before it is complied with, the PIC has determined the landing direction in use at the airfield. DGAC has observed this order being ignored by some pilots, who join the cct in the middle of the downwind leg, or base leg, or direct in on long finals."
Guess EASA will eventually bring this in and goodby our standard O/H join
Last edited by vee-tail-1; 2nd Dec 2007 at 18:23.
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Some airfields demand an overhead join at 1500ft and let down on the crosswind leg to 1000ft QFE eg EGMD. Check the AIP before departure and don't assume all airfields have a standard overhead join.