Manch pay

[RandD boy]

Forgive me if I'm out of date but whatever happened to the banding pay dispute that was going on at manch? Has it been sorted or been dropped or other? Curious about wether it might have an application for some of us others if it went ok.

[250 kts]

I would suggest the lack of replies indicates my question-what the hell are you on about?????:confused::confused::confused:

[9th Dan Vectors]

This is my first post, however as a MACC controller I know the company and the Union have let us down. The extent of which is massively upsetting. Airing our views on this website will get us no further unfortunately, than the attempts to right the many wrongs we are subjected to via the company grievance procedure. What we can do though is look any controller at another unit in NATS or Europe in the eye and know we match up. I am not second rate and neither are any of my colleagues. We should not be thought of as such by our fellow sector controllers in the UK. Company culture dictates we should be regarded as second class. Why?

[Loxley]

I think any ounce of sympathy that people had for the MACC guys and gals over the move to Scotland evaporated when MACC started banging on about banding. MACC seem to think that they were the only unit who didn't get what they wanted or felt they deserved when banding came in. Guess what...............you weren't! Plenty of units felt they weren't having their hard work aptly recognised by the company as a result of banding. Why do MACC think they're so special?

[anotherthing]

9th Dan Vectors


Company culture dictates we should be regarded as second class

What do you mean by this? is it because of Banding you feel this way, or because of the move to Prestwick?

[Stupendous Man]

Would you care to explain why being at Prestwick makes you second class?

[flyingwithstyle1]

banding is certainly causing a problem at my band 2 unit up north. Several ATCOs are looking for better paid jobs outside NATS. If there is any attempt to alter pension terms and conditions then that will certainly make it easier to leave. I am watching what happens with the BAA pension issue with interest:E.

[ImnotanERIC]

wouldn't worry about it, when nats sells of nsl because it doesnt make any money you will be working outside of nats.

Result eh?

:oh::oh::oh:

[Geffen]

If nsl sold all their loss making airports it would be in the money! maybe even stay in nats!

[Ceannairceach]

Loxley - I don't think anyone at MACC begrudges any other unit their right to equal pay with their colleagues. Indeed, we were against the banding structure as a whole at Manch, not just for ourselves.

So we don't think we're special. Far from it. We think we're equal with our colleagues across the company - and demand to be paid equally - as should anyone who is a victim of this unjust and divisive system.

[RandD boy]

ok but back to my original question; is it all finished with or resolved one way or another? Also, what's the way it's being done (if it still is)? Is it a union complaint or a complaint to management or what? i'd seen rumours it was a legal case of some sort but if so, how? is manch saying the banding system is illegal? i know some decisions have been a bit unpopular but surely NATs managers arent daft enough to put something into place and carry it on if it's illegal. last one-was anyone put under any pressure to stop complaining about it or leaned on to give it up or were they all left to get on with it?

[250 kts]

I would have thought that a "banding pay dispute" may just involve every union member having some idea what is going on.

The banding and associated pay rises were voted in by a massive majority. We are now about to be paid the last part of the 3 year deal. I would suggest that any "dispute" will be attempt to be addressed in the pay negotiations for 2009 onwards. Assuming there is any cash available to give us a pay rise at all!:ugh::ugh:

RanD-I see you work at LACC-why don't you pick up a phone to MACC and ask one of them what is going on??:confused::confused:

[ImnotanERIC]

I tried that once, was told very quickly that they were far too busy to answer the phone if it was not an operational call. what with their increased traffic levels and all.

[Homo Simpson]

Fact is the massive majority that voted in the pay deal, which had the banding at its heart were mmm let me see ah thats right the very people that were going to benefit from it the most. You have the numbers.
The reasons given for bringing it in and i am comparing here at Manchester with Band 5 units only, are just bollocks. We can easily question and show that every justification for the banding is wrong.
That is why the equal pay claims are landing on managements desk every week.
We are meant to be working together to assist each other not having a great big bloody wedge shoved between us which unless you are dumb is all about saving money!
If other units want to fight banding then do it, dont have a pop at Manchester because we are taking them on. For too long we sat about and moaned and bitched and took what was thrown at us. Well we have had enough and thats why there has been a far more determined mood to fight back.

[250 kts]

Homo,

I accept all of your arguments. But who do you want parity with exactly? TC, AC, Farnborough? Or should we all be paid exactly the same-in which case I guess we can say good bye to airport contracts,especially the one at Manchester which I understand is making a sizeable loss already.

Remember your reps voted very strongly in not going into units when it comes to pay and unfortunately this is what we are left with.

[Squawk 7700]

In answer to your question 250kts. I personally want parity with those that work within the same company and hold the same license i.e an ACS rating. As we are all aware we are a mobile grade, therefore we cannot choose where we are posted, therefore it follows that we should all be paid the same. I believe you cannot penalise someone ( in pay terms) who performs exactly the same function as anyone else in the company with an ACS rating because they were posted somewhere beyond their control.

[Hootin an a roarin]

I am a mobile grade and have an APS and ADC rating. By that logic can I please be paid the same as Manc tower?
Alternatively for parity I provide a tower and approach function, which is more than the controllers at LHR do, so should I not be paid more?

What a c**p argument.

If you mean that you are moving the same traffic in similar circumstances then I agree you should be paid more. But just because you could be posted anywhere doesn't mean we should all be on a par with everyone else. I think most people by that argument would want/get a pay rise.

[250 kts]

7700-so a London City tower controller gets the same as a Heathrow God:):)??

And what about those in the company who hold all of the ratings-TWR/APC + Area?
I accept the ratings may not all be current but those staff are arguably of greater use to the company in terms of potential flexibility than those without.
And how do you get round the issue of different pay on the same unit?

I take it from your post that you didn't want to go to Manchester in the 1st place and have been trying for years to get out?

[Ppdude]

Atco 2 should get same money as atco 2. Simple

Same job, same contract, same responsibilty, same hours.

[throw a dyce]

Does the Manchester Airport contract make any money? If it doesn't then you could say that Band 2 units that are in profit,are subsidising Atco's who earn £17K more.
Ppdude.What about Atco 3s.

[Hootin an a roarin]

"Atco 2 should get same money as atco 2. Simple"

Fair enough, lets save some money and make every ATCO 2 Band 4!

"Same job, same contract, same responsibilty, same hours."

Also airport Watch managers are ATCO2's. Lets give them a £15 grand pay rise eh. Simple?

If that works across the board then lets go for it. I'm quite happy to take the pay rise to a Stansted ATCO3 but with lower traffic levels. I've got even more responsibility, I carry out radar duties.

[Over+Out]

If Manchester, or any other unit want more money, then please come and work at TC. We are short of staff. You will then be extremly busy and be paid accordingly.
I am fed up with hearing Manchester moaning, come south and be a band 5 ATCO.

[radar707]

Over+Out,

You obviously haven't tried getting released from a regional Unit any time in the last few years, there are many out there who would love to go south but can't because they have to wait for students to come in from the college to train and validate 2 ratings, by the time that has happened, someone has retired or left NATS, thereby needing to wait for another student from the college (there aren't many as they all go to TC or the London Airports) to come along and validate 2 ratings, by which time........

[Roffa]

No issues with Manch being Band 5, it might even happen in the next pay round. Stranger things have happened.

You'll still be playing catch up though because expect a certain very recently slightly expanded unit near the south coast to be Band (wait for it...) 6, which you can then strive for as well when you've moved north of the border :}

[opnot]

Roffa
What a divided company we have become. Area controllers and airfield controllers uesd to be in it together with a common aim .Thats all gone ,we are better than you seems to be the order of the day now, congrats to Nats mangement ,divide and conquer.

[Roffa]

Blimey, you chaps bite far too easily.

[rab-k]

What a divided company

Ever heard of NSL and NERL?

That boat already sailed.

Banding? Just a means of keeping London Weighting without calling it thus. I don't think anyone seriously believes its about traffic complexity anymore.

[eyeinthesky]

London Weighting: that reminds me: have TC signed up for the buy-out of London Weighting like AC did now that they have moved down South?

[wizad]

if macc get band 5, then TC get a new shiny band 6!!!!!

[Scuzi]

eyeinthesky, we have been given the option of receiving it as normal for 3 years or to take a non pensionable lump sum of 3 years worth which, fingers crossed, should be paid this month.

[Manchester ATC]

WHY IS EVERYONE WORRYING WHAT WE ARE BEING PAID
We wont be at Manch much longer.
:ok::{:confused:

[RandD boy]

Does that mean you wont be taking your airspace with you then?
Even from down here your comment makes you look very much like a manager or a bod charged with giving out the management line.:=

[250 kts]

RandD,
Once again I ask what are you on about???:confused::confused:

Do you really think that Manchester moves to Prestwick and they don't take the traffic and airspace with them?:ugh::ugh:

Why don't you go out and find the information yourself rather than come on here for it-it's all out there in the public domain what the plans are.
Manchester ATC.

Not sure anyone really bothers about what you get paid up there but there seem to be plenty at Manchester that care about what we get paid at LACC or should I say the new LATCC.

[RandD boy]

It was a rhetorical question.

[Ceannairceach]

All I care about, basically, is fairness and equality. We all do the same job, so we should all be paid equally. Quite simple really. And I don't care if you're south, north, east or west of where I am.

There is never a need need for cross-unit bickering or cyber willy waving.

We all try to stop those funny little blips hitting each other in exactly the same way, after the same training, and therefore using exactly the same skills and knowledge.

If you believe that you're worthy of more money than someone doing exactly the same job as you then I think that management have "won" whatever battle it is they're waging, and you need to take a closer look at your own ego and self-importance.

I couldn't care less if someone who was sat on their fat behind in some god-forsaken hell hole which handled 10 flights a day at the most got paid the same as me, as long as I get paid what I earn.

I don't begrudge anyone who went through what I went through to become what I am now, the right to have equality pay-wise, with me. For he or she worked just as hard to get through college and then validate as I did. And he or she has the same worries, stresses and strains as I have and everyone else has.

The moment any of us believe that we're more essential than our colleagues is the day we may as well disband the union and start doing "personal favours" for those in the upper echelons of our ever-changing company.

Perhaps one day some of you may realise that your inflated ego is getting in the way of your deflated humanity.

[oneowl]

[QUOTE]WHY IS EVERYONE WORRYING WHAT WE ARE BEING PAID
We wont be at Manch much longer.
28th November 2007 22:58
[QUOTE]Manchester ATC
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does that mean you wont be taking your airspace with you then?
Even from down here your comment makes you look very much like a manager or a bod charged with giving out the management line.
28th November 2007 23:48
I think you may have misunderstood the undertone of the term "won't be at Manch much longer" 2+2+???:confused:

[ImnotanERIC]

ceanair, if only people did work as hard as each other to a) leave the college and b) validate, then i would agree that people should get the same pay.

it is easier to validate at units with lighter traffic.
And it is easier to get out of the college if you have some assets that other students don't.
bring on band 10 for the new "super" unit:D:D:D

[anotherthing]

I'mnotanERIC


bring on band 10 for the new "super" unit


Glad you think that we TC Bods have improved your unit by 5 bands :}

[Scuzi]

I thought ImnotanERIC was a TC bod since he claims not to be an ERIC :E

Regarding the pay, I can't say I agree entirely with Ceannairceach. I don't understand how it is fair for a Manchester controller, soon to be living in Scotland, to be paid the same as someone who lives on the south coast and works a busy TC sector. The considerable difference in the cost of living is one factor but there is also the difference in the levels of traffic and complexity.

[rab-k]

The considerable difference in the cost of living is one factor but there is also the difference in the levels of traffic and complexity.Fair point on the cost of living, so why not just call a spade a spade and return to the regional salary differential that we used to have?

As for complexity, did the ATCOs at ScACC and MACC who validated on sectors AC off-loaded to those units suddenly jump to Band 5? The fact is they didn't, therefore how could sectors sufficiently complex to justify Band 5 one day only be worthy of Band 4 the next?

Yes it is more expensive to purchase/rent a house and live in S'ampton and I have no probs with additional allowances to take that into account. But a blanket unit differential on the basis of "complexity"? Until such time as individual sectors, rather than units, are graded on complexity then there will be those at ScACC and MACC who will, with some justification, continue to regard the existing system as flawed.

[Ceannairceach]

Exactly.

What precisely was wrong with the "London-weighting" system in place before this banding scam came into place?

[Gonzo]

Shhhhhh, don't tell 'em lads......they don't know! :E

[anotherthing]

Scuzi

I'mnotaneric claimed his location was Swanwick well before TC moved, so I have always taken it as meaning that although he was an En-route Contoller, he was not an En-Route Incompetent Controller!

[ImnotanERIC]

I don't think the "c" stands for controller.

[BDiONU]

I don't think the "c" stands for controller.
I'm sure it must stand for Colleague.

BD

[bad_at_radar]

Im all in favour of the guys down south earning more beacuse of the diffence in costs of living...fair is fair...

Just MACC are joining an equally disillusioned group however we are just alot quieter about it!!

[anotherthing]

'sfunny

I have mates at Scottish who admit it's not as busy as down south.

They must be lying!

[anotherthing]

Ac or TC?

One has almost enough staff, the other closes sectors because of a lack of staff... unless they close sectors to enable longer breaks.

As for equipment - yes it's modern, but you have phone lines that work and a radar that displays.... what more do you need to do your job? Brand new equipment is all very well but it doesn't always have advantages of kit that has been in place for ages and is therefore bug free.

[oneowl]

anotherthing,

Just curious has to how many of your stretched staff at AC had to be plugged in for 12 out of 16 hours over 2 shifts this weekend.

I bet more than a few of them were putting the finishing touches to their Christmas shopping before I got my first break.

You guys don't know you're born!

[anotherthing]

12 out of 16 hours?

Sounds like a SCRATCOH bust to me

[PPRuNe Radar]

You could in theory work 13 hours maximum on SRATCOH over the period mentioned.

Locally enhanced relief is not SRATCOH.

[ImnotanERIC]

honk honk