De ice fluid

[ORBITAL]

Does any one know the correct de ice fluid to use on light aircraft.
BS number and any name or code.
Thanks.

[gcolyer]

I use Kilfrost RDF.

www.kilfrost.com (http://www.kilfrost.com)

[NutLoose]

As said, it's the killfrost you want :)

[javelin]

If you are rich that is......................

If it's a Cessna 150 or the like, use Halfords best :ok:

Used it for years on parachute aircraft parked outside.

[javelin]

Further to last

http://secure.silmid.com/varius.engine?w=2&ref=18&language=1

[TheOddOne]

If it's a Cessna 150 or the like, use Halfords best

OK on paintwork, but does it not cause blooming and other damage to perspex?

Use an aircraft cover for protecting the transparencies, then turn the a/c into sun to warm up the perspex whilst mechanically removing the worst of the frost. Then use cheap car de-icer on the wing & tailplane surfaces. Allow at least 30 mins to do an a/c properly on a frosty morning.

The other problem I find at this time of year is that the interior gets damp and combined with warm, moist exhaled breath causes chronic misting up inside. We use a sponge fitted with a chamios cover (also from H*lfords) but you have to keep wiping and wiping until the heater gets going, usually well into the climbout.

The alternative is to pay for hangarage, presently around £3.5k p.a. round our way. (if you can get it!)

TheOddOne

[RatherBeFlying]

Having had an interesting low level tour in the ravine past the runway while building flying speed:uhoh:, I am now a big fan of carrying a couple spare jugs of automotive windshield washer fluid in the car if the a/c I'm about to fly has been parked outside.

I am no longer a fan of simply scraping between the rivet lines.

Yes, do keep it well away from the perspex$$$$$

And make sure the wing and tailplane sparkle.

[L-Band]

Use Fluid O2A, this is used in the TKS de-icer system and on Cessna windshield de-ice systems. Just fill up a garden spray bottle.:)

L

[S-Works]

I use truck de-icer which is exactly the same stuff as the aviation deicer in a different tub (according to the distributor and the spec sheets), safe on plastics and paintwork. I mix it thick and spray the struts and leading edges and prop and it stops ice on cloud climbs.

[IO540]

I've had the Aeroshell TKS fluid from Silmid.

Hugely expensive stuff - not sure anybody would use it for de-icing the airframe. One 20 litre drum was about £200, and it is very heavy - I bet the stuff as a SG higher than water because I can lift 20kg easily enough.

Flying schools use all kinds of stuff, sprayed on with the B&Q pump-up bottles used to spray Cuprinol etc on wooden fences, but the rental scene isn't that worried about long term corrosion issues.

[S-Works]

Oh come on IO, the rental scene is just as concerned about corrosion as you and I, these are their bread and butter and an airframe out of action for corrosion is not earning money. You really must have had a bad time with a school somewhere to be so down on them ALL the time!!!!

Truck deicer and the aero shell stuff is identical, just one has 'paperwork' and the other does not. 20l drum about £20!

I use a B&Q pump to put it on and it's worked fine for me for years and nothing has rotted off my aircraft!

[IanSeager]

bose, do you have a product name or link for the truck de-icer?

Ian

[S-Works]

Not to hand, the drum is in the hanger. I will get it when I fly tomorrow and post it. Found the company on eBay a few years ago while trying to source TKS fluid (which I also bought 25x20l drums off for £160.!). I asked them for something suitable for an aircraft and they came up with this stuff. I was a bit wary at first coming from the certified aircraft mentality! But it works fine, the spec she is the same as the aeroshell deicer so I am happy enough.

[IanSeager]

25x20l drums off for £160

500 litres for £160?

Ian

[S-Works]

Yeah! Cool eh! A clear out of a unit, pallet load sat at the back unopened and they guy put it on eBay with no understanding of the value. I was the only bid! Price included shipping...... :p

Mind you I just sold a computer on eBay for more than I paid for it new! It's a funny world!

[IO540]

Yeah! Cool eh! A clear out of a unit, pallet load sat at the back unopened and they guy put it on eBay with no understanding of the value. I was the only bid! Price included shipping

It's always interesting to find out the real story behind something, isn't it?

;)

I was going to say it must have fallen out of the open cargo door of a 747.

£160 would probably only just cover intra-UK haulage on 500kg. I have just paid £120 on haulage from Felixstowe to Worthing, 300kg.

[S-Works]

Steady IO, thats a bit close to the knuckle insinuating it was knocked off!!!

I put all my old tat on eBay and it seems to sell well.

Anyway you are just jealous you paid more than that for a single drum!!! I might sell it off by the drum! Although I have used a bit on the DA42 recently.

[IO540]

Would never suggest any such thing, bose -x :)

But the end result is just the same as far as the price you paid - somebody sold the stuff without knowing what it was worth.

Deicing fluid suitable for aircraft (the issue is more aluminium corrosion in inaccessible cavities, than paint coming off, BTW) is always expensive, and I am sure that if the pricing was bogus the airlines would do something about it. It costs a huge amount of $$$ to spray an airliner which got covered in ice while parked.

Schools I trained at used car antifreeze. Should be safe on paint but not so sure about aluminium.

I flog all my old stuff on Ebay too.

[Kit d'Rection KG]

+++MASTER CAUTION+++ :\

Some types of de-icing fluid qualify as Dangerous Goods and as such must not be carried on board aircraft unless the various appropriate approvals and processes are in place. That, generally speaking, precludes carriage in private aircraft. :{

(I wouldn't ever put anything not meant for aircraft, on my aircraft). :cool:

[Fuji Abound]

Although I have used a bit on the DA42 recently.

So where did you say you knocked it off from.

Pssss - I wouldnt tell Diamond if I were you - it might be a very good reason for them to invalidate the warranty.

[S-Works]

I thought sitting in a diamond invalidated the warranty?
:p

[Fuji Abound]

Na, only the warranty on the engines, the G1000 and the transfer pumps.

Of course you might have thought the German bits would work. :)

[RatherBeFlying]

Lets not forget that after removing ice and/or frost from an a/c, there's a big difference between: flying it on a nice day and
flying it in icing conditions
Choose your fluids accordingly.

[scooter boy]

Fluid sprayed on to the airframe when the A/C is on the ground is v different to that which is exuded from a TKS system.

I know of a TKS deiced aircraft (not my own) whose TKS system is heavily contaminated with debris caused by using cheappie fluid. This is a very expensive and essential system to risk by using fluid which could be contaminated with particulate debris. Although the constituents may be present in the same quantities in truck deicer you may have some grit/debris in there which wouldn't matter if you were deicing trucks but would make a huge difference if your TKS stopped due to a blocked filter or blockage of the laser drilled holes in the titanium leading edge panels in heavy icing conditions.

Aeroshell 07 is a little cheaper in the channel Islands but still v expensive, it remains my first choice. (and I have used less than half a 20L drum this year so far).

SB

[S-Works]

Er where did we get into a discussion of putting truck deicer into a TKS system?

[scooter boy]

About here:

"Truck deicer and the aero shell stuff is identical"

SB

[S-Works]

About here:
"Truck deicer and the aero shell stuff is identical"
SB
Now now, read the whole post, we were talking about deicing the outside of airframes using a B&Q sprayer, for this purpose the truck de-icer is the same stuff and more than adequate for the job.

At no time did I suggest putting it in the TKS. In fact I pointed out that I put the real stuff in the TKS system on the Diamond. I just happen to have rather a lot of it in the back of the hanger! :p However the truck de-icer is exactly the same constitution and a visual comparison does not show the piles of hole clogging debris that you are panicking about. Whether I would use it in the TKS system is a different matter.

[Fuji Abound]

At no time did I suggest putting it in the TKS.

Quite so.

However as I mentioned if you let on you will invalidate the warranty. Diamond do not and will not approve any other deicer for use on the wing preflight - rightly or wrongly!

[javelin]

I refer the honourable gentlemen to my previous answer - go to Halfords :E

[dsiltcat]

So Bose, did you get the name of the truck de-icer that's just like RDF? You were going to post it. I rarely need it as we have hangarage but there are occasions when fluid would come in handy - but I'm not going to pay £120 for 25 litres, which would last me until global warming eliminates the problem.

[llanfairpg]

Halfords stuff etc is not anti ice, you may well need an anti ice as well as a deicer or a good lawyer.

It sounds like a great bargain on a forum to use unapproved fluids but it may not sound so sensible in a litigation court room.

I remember a CFI who used to swear by a good broom as a deicer, he spun in after take off at Edinburgh.

[scooter boy]

I remember a CFI who used to swear by a good broom as a deicer, he spun in after take off at Edinburgh."

Spot on llan - If you can afford avgas and the cost of flying then you can afford to use an approved deicer.
Anything else is not only a false economy but also potentially dangerous.

In the last 12 months I have used less than 20 litres of aeroshell 07 as an in flight deicing TKS fluid - it is very pricey but works very well at melting all the nasty rapidly accumulating white stuff off the windscreen, prop and the leading edges esp when I cross a front.

My aircraft has never required external deicing as it rarely sits outside rotting (in the winter I stick it in a hangar even when away from base if I am spending the night away)- The aeroshell costs me approx £1 per flying hour extra per annum to use and I don't begrudge it.

Why not put the aircraft inside a hangar if you plan an early departure the next day?

SB

[100LL]

You can use either, Kilfrost TKS 80, Aeroshell Compound 07 or alternativly AL-5 (DTD 406B) On the DA 42. They are all approved.

Get looking as nobody has got any Aeroshell compound 07 in the UK, that I know as we wanted some last week.

[Fuji Abound]

100LL

I understoood Diamond had only approved the Aero Shell? Clearly you know differently?

I also couldnt find any Aero Shell two weeks ago.

Have you got suppliers of the alternatives?

[TheOddOne]

As an interesting aside (well, to me, anyway)...

We ran up the fleet of PA28s yesterday as they hadn't run for a few days and would be likely laid up for another few. I ran one at 1500-1800 RPM slightly leaned off until the oil temperature was just into the green arc. The weather conditions were 125m in fog, -2/-2. When I'd finished, I had a look at the prop; there was a THICK layer of ice on the leading edge and all down the back of it, both blades, on the inboard half. That was just from running it on the ground in the fog! Of course, there's absolutely NO anti/de-ice capability on the Warrior, aside the Pitot heater.

Hopefully the benefits of keeping the battery charged and thoroughly warming up the oil will offset any additional condensation that might happen inside the crankcase as it cools down again!

TheOddOne

[100LL]

Had a company in Belgium Email us last week touting for customershttp://www.aero-sense.com/TKS.htm I think they have some.

We are down to our last 40 Lts, we tried to get some last week but could not find any. Silmed are quoting at least 7 days.

Try Aero-sense dont know what the shipping from Belgium would be. Alternativly try and find something that complies with DTD 406B, thats listed as an alternate for Diamond.

[IO540]

Prop de-ice is a serious business. I reckon that many of the reports of performance loss due to structural icing are in fact caused by loss of power due to prop icing.

I've been into icing conditions (safely, with warm air below etc) to see the impact on the IAS and while I had difficulty picking up more than about 5-8mm of rime/clear in the time I had, I saw a negligible speed drop. My prop is TKS de-iced and the fluid also sprays all over the front window as a result. It's a relatively cheap installation (about £3k) and obviously very effective.

The problem with ground running as described above is that the RPM is low and the prop blades are doing a very low mach number (or TAS if you like). At full cruise RPM, say 2400 or 2500, most of the blade is doing the bigger part of mach 1 and the corresponding aerodynamic heating protects the outer part of the blade from icing. You can still get icing lower down the blade, and those parts are traditionally protected either with TKS or by electric heating. But during a low speed ground run the whole prop can get covered with ice.

The SOP for icing conditions includes going to max RPM, for the reasons above.

Supercooled water can exist (stratus cloud) only between 0C and about -15C and thus any airframe component which heats up by more than 15C will not collect ice. This happens (assuming a surface parallel to the airflow) at about 350kt TAS and, as well as comprehensive anti-ice systems, is what protects jet aircraft and gives them the tremendous mission capability compared to what we have.

[llanfairpg]

Prop de-ice is a serious business.Any type of icing is serious business, aircraft + ice on turn you into a test pilot--good luck.

By the way dont forget dont forget that Kilfost is supposed to be mixed with hot water. I once nicked a small amount of the concentrated stuff to deice my car windscreen it was useless!