MANSTON -3

[Twitcher]

Some good news today for Manston....the news is also good for the staff at Gatwick
Date: 20 November 2007, London:
Andrew Duncan and Andrew Stoneman, partners and Joint Administrators from Menzies Corporate Restructuring (MCR), announce today the sale of the business and assets of DAS Air to Continental Aviation Services (Nig) Limited (CAS). The liabilities of the Company remain with DAS Air Limited (In Administration).
The Company, a long established UK based air freight services business operating routes between Europe and West Africa and between East Africa and the Middle East had ceased operations following the appointment of administrators on 17 September 2007.
The sale of the business should allow operations to recommence in the short term and preserves the jobs of 34 staff, who work at the Company’s sites in Crawley and Manston.
Andrew Duncan comments, “We’re pleased that the sale of the business represents the preservation of a long established African all cargo airline. It’s also good to note that of all the offers we received for the business from interested parties, CAS had the best funding package to acquire the business but also to fund investment and its future working capital requirements. I believe that this gives the business a very real chance to thrive and succeed, going forward.”
Vitalis Ibe of CAS commented, “We are very excited with the opportunity to acquire this business and Charles Goodrich has been appointed as the CEO. We are looking forward to building a brand new vibrant cargo airline and maintenance facility”.

[Paradism]

A very minor note that when previously visiting the Newmarket Holidays website, I have observed that they offered 13 holidays from Manston. This has now increased to 14. I have been unable to determine whether this will result in an extra flight, I suspect not. However, it should result in a few more pax passing through KIA.

[manstonman]

From the Infratil website: Freight increased slightly over the prior year due to the seasonal loss of some produce traffic at Kent, but the trends at both Glasgow Prestwick and Kent were encouraging.

IAE continues to have credible growth programmes for its airports, the necessary financial backing and very good, experienced, people to grow the business. Substantial work is progressing on developing new freight and passenger airline opportunities at all three airports.

[Paradism]

catflaps

Interesting comparing KIA to Lands End. Not really a valid comparison but since you raised it.

In the period you mention, statistics in the 12 months to Aug 2007, I observe that KIA managed 13,000 pax. That is an increase of 62% over the previous period. Lands End managed 28,000 pax, an increase of 27%.

As regards freight, for the twelve months 2006, KIA managed 20,841 tonnes and Lands End 85 tonnes.

I think a more interesting comparison would be KIA with Prestwick, especially since they have the same owner. Granted that KIA have a hill to climb in regard to pax, but they are consistently beating Prestwick on freight volumes.

[manstonman]

Some way to go yet to overtake Lands End.

But way out in front of Lydd

[Ad C]

It would be interesting, in my mind, to find out how the likes of Ostend compare with Manston or even Lands End. Are there any other Northern European airports that might be worthy of comparison with Manston?

[Manston Airport]

Is Land's End where they do flights in Sea Kings to some Islands of Cornwall daily? and I see there are some new routes in the newmarket Hoildays.

James

[airhumberside]

Penzance has the heli's - Lands End is Skybus

Ostend passenger numbers will be far higher than Manstons as they have a larger charter programme with Thomas Cook and the Belgium TUI group company

[Manston Airport]

Thats it airhumberside thanks for the update

James

[Jes]

Eurostar could get Brussels rival from Manston


Direct flights could start to Brussels from Kent after Eurostar slashed axed services from Ashford International station to the Belgian capital.

Steven Fitzgerald, chief executive of Infratil Airports, which runs Kent International Airport at Manston, told Kent on Sunday he is in talks with airlines about the idea.

The opening of the £100 million Ebbsfleet International station this week saw Eurostar cut the number of trains from Ashford to Paris and cancel all services to Brussels.

The loss of services at Ashford has come as a blow for the local economy – and led to calls for rival operators to be allowed to use the station.

Mr Fitzgerald said he believed there was demand for direct flights to Brussels from Manston.

“We’re working very hard on getting people to launch scheduled flights to a number of places,” he said.

“We’re being approached and continue to approach a lot of operators on a lot of flights and certainly, the fact Eurostar’s not going to be giving the same level of service from Ashford as it has in the past, is something we’re pointing out to people we talk to.

“Brussels is somewhere that people have got established links to, it’s a good destination anyway and it’s now higher up the list of destinations that we talk to people about.”

[alanlyn]

Mr al

Thank you for your e-mail we have at this time launched our Summer 2008 programme for Majorca and are running a programme to Gran Canaria in August only and we are currently in negotiations regards a programme for the Algarve.
If only everyone was as enthusiastic as yourself then we would be able to add further resorts to our Kent programme but regrettably local support is not the same as we experienced in Prestwick in our early years.

regards Kent Escapes

Marketing and Customer Relations


From:
Sent: 25 November 2007 14:51
To: letsgo
Subject: waiting

[manstonman]

Apologies to Kent Escapes if I'm being a bit too harsh but it really could do with carrying out some serious marketing regarding its services from Manston. I did a bit of poll around the office and in a pub (all within about 20 miles of Manston) and NOBODY was aware that you can fly to Spain from the old place. Try it yourself bet you get the same results. Isn't it also about time they updated their website as well?

[alanlyn]

Sorry i cant print ,my reply to Kent Escapes,but i did mention there 2007 web pages, and the month only holiday in August, not good enough for pensioners,

[kellyoldsmunt]

marketing was also a let down with eujet, there were people in dover that had no idea of the routes from kia.
it seems that a lot of people would love to see the airport operational again with pax flights, but it doesnt look like the companies involved are interested.

[flightless]

there are people living in Birchington 5 mins from Manston that didn't know you could fly from Manston, in comparison E.U jet came in with a blaze of publicity. Referring to the article in the Kent on Sunday thay have said that there are already services to Faro & Alicante, they are obviously not aware that the Alicante flight has been dropped. May be that was because most people wanted flight only and not the overpriced packages.

[alanlyn]

I paid 1800 pounds for two weeks in Faro, from Manston, ,all inclusive. I have just paid 1600 pounds for two weeks in Cuba all inclusive with 1st choice.But it was still worth the extra money to fly from Manston because all the upheaval at Gatwick.:ugh:

[PolPotMan]

First post for me but spend lots of time reading everyone elses...

Approx 12.30 this afternoon was driving past Manston and lucky enough to watch a shiny Oasis 744 making its approach, not 100% sure but saw a large jet climbing away few minutes after which I assumed was the same a/c.

What do Oasis use Manston for?

Would be great if they could do a weekly Manston-HKG flight, surely all the students in Canterbury from Hong Kong would use :)......I can dream!

However, having flown Oasis economy in June I would certainly only want to do it the front half of the plane!!

[AircraftOperations]

Crew training flights at Manston regularly includes the Oasis 747, amongst some other carriers.

[Jes]

Another Empost flight came in last night. Can our insiders tell us if this was another horse flight or not? Does the airport have the contract now? Or is other cargo being flown?

[HZ123]

aside; Is there any work going on on the 707, having past by a few times in the last few months it seemed to be rooted to the spot. Hopefully I am wrong.

[manstonman]

s there any work going on on the 707, having past by a few times in the last few months it seemed to be rooted to the spot. Hopefully I am wrong.

They were doing some tests about three weeks ago and belted it up the runway a few times

[manstonman]

Anybody know if the Skyvan G-PIGY which was parked up at TG yesterday is a permanent fixture?

[Throat]

G-PIGY is now also owned by Invicta Aviation, So I guess it will visit TG quite often now.

[alanlyn]

Mr Al

For you information the Kent Escapes website was updated actually the same day/time as I sent the e-mail to you.
I do understand your concerns over waiting to hear about our programme however the general lack of regional support, other than from your good self and friends, has meant we have had to seriously consider whether or not to fly from Kent International Airport at all and so being have had to consider the best routes that can attract or allow us to give the most competitive prices.

Once again I thank you for your continued support and hope we can be of service in 2008.

With regards

Marketing and Customer Relations

[Twitcher]

from uk-airport-news-info website...


Freight up 168 percent at Kent Airport
25.11.07

Kent International Airport (Manson) handled 4173 tonnes of freight in October - a new record for the airport since Infratil's acquisition in 2005. This represents an increase of 164% on the prior year and 232% on the September total.

The growth was driven primarily by the introduction of daily MK Airlines services, along with consistent traffic from other regular customers and the arrival of a new customer at the airport: Rock-it Cargo.

Rock-it specialise in the shipping of band and stage equipment for global concert tours. A spokesman for the airport said that this is an area of the business with good future potential given the flexible facilities, lack of congestion and the airport's highly committed team.

Rock-it used the airport for two 747 charters during October and more movements are planned for later in the year.

[deedave]

The above is a direct quote from the Infratil website - presumably a press release.

[manstonman]

Direct flights could start to Brussels from Kent after Eurostar slashed axed services from Ashford International station to the Belgian capital.

If it happens let's hope it's going to be a big step up from the Piper Navajo and a big step down from the £200 + return that Flywatch are offering out of Southend next year.

[furmanek]

Of all the routes in the World this seems the most ludicrous to me. OK so Ashford is restricting services via Eurostar, but you can still jump on a train from Ebbsfleet or a ferry from Dover or Eurotunnel from Folkestone. Are there really so many people let down by Eurostar in the Ashford area to warrant even considering this as a serious plan (Lydd just maybe but even then!!!!)? You will still be able to take the Eurostar from Ashford to Lille and change to the TGV services to Belgium/France and Germany, so just what the advantage of traveling from Ashford to Manston to catch a flight to Brussels would be (there wouldn't be more than a couple of flights a day) I am not sure. In fact by the time you have driven to Manston and arrived an hour early for a flight you may just as well have taken the Eurostar to Lille and changed trains? If this is Infratils level of marketing strategy then God help them!

[Jes]

I don't know if this criticism will be acceptable; my mild comments on Kent Escapes were zapped yesterday. I have heard that heavy canvassing for a Brussels service is being carried out in Sandwich. It will be very much a business service, so it might run on the back of Pfizer, but in general I share your views.

[manstonman]

Regardless of destination, would not any passenger service from Manston be a bit of a bonus at the moment? And who knows, it could be the catalyst to spur on others.

[furmanek]

No I disagree. The last thing the airport can have is another service that fails a few months later. The reluctance of operators now is partly based on the history of previous ventures, to have another half baked scheme start and fail would be more damaging than no service at all.

[manstonman]

But would it? Unlike the previous owner I get the impression that Infratil is not the sort of Company that would consider such an operation unless it had a fair degree of success. As I said, if it's seen to be working well regardless of destination it might be a spur for others.

[euroairport]

A local environmental group is set to embark on a new tree-planting project thanks to sponsorship from Kent International Airport and Oasis Hong Kong Airlines.

Details are on KIA web site.

Excellent PR for Airport , worth a look.

[manstonman]

Nice piece re the trees. Oasis do seem to have a fondness for Manston.

Correction to my earlier post, I said: Infratil is not the sort of Company that would consider such an operation unless it had a fair degree of success.

I meant: unless it was guaranteed a fair degree of success.

There, makes a bit more sense.

[furmanek]

Well I do hope your right, the airport cannot afford any more failures. It was more the fact that the route would have been very very low down my list of options that surprised me. I would have looked at Dublin, Edinburgh and Malaga initially, but never Paris or Brussels! Yes any routes would be a plus, we just don't want short term pluses. As I have said in previous posts even Krakow is more logical to me than Brussels.

I do think Infratil care about who operates (financially care). If they oversee one failure after another their revenue stream has no future. They need a sustainable partner. The damage by failures stifles the interest by more serious operators which ultimately will harm them financially.

[airhumberside]

Why not? Many other services rely on business support

[manstonman]

Anybody know the reason why the place seems to be overdosing on MK 747s? One's been over in freight for quite a few days now and the other's parked up alongside the passenger terminal. Normally they don't hang around for long and does seem to indicate that they are using Manston more and more as a base rather than their hub at Ostend where they are constantly bleating that they don't see any MK movements for days on end.

[Jes]

One of them went tech: that's all. The produce flights are daily "until March", then it becomes uncertain. The airport expects them all to revert to Ostend next summer. What's of more interest is the MK/BGA development.

Some new big fork-lifts were delivered this week, and the rumour is that the extension to E apron will start in January. Hidden big spending continues all around the airport on equipment and installations. Something's in the wind.

[manstonman]

BA Cargo?

[Manston Airport]

Eurostar could get Brussels rival from Manston

I think Eastern Airways with there J41 would be great on that route. But I think T3 prices are a bit much.



BA Cargo?


Yeah theres news that MK will do flights for BA Cargo to somwhere in America from MSE and PIK:ok:

James

[Paradism]

More detail available, courtesy of the Kent-Online website, of the new ground handling equipment at Manston. Four 2.5 tonne, one 4.5 tonne forklift followed in January by an 11 tonne and a 13 tonne. The larger vehicles to be used for unloading aircraft.

[Jes]

Thanks, Paradism: well-researched.

The Empost cargo last week was not horses; it was printed matter. It looks as though the airport has another customer.

[manstonman]

Over on the CAA website you'll find this:docs/5/ergdocs/ba_stanfeb07.pdf
'Extending the current Price Control on Stansted Airport - a Consultation' Response by British Airways (BA) plc

In paragraph 11 you will find BA's current thoughts on Manston . . . .
While some limited alternatives do exist [to Stansted], these are either substantially further away (e.g East Midlands, Manchester) and/or currently have inadequate facilities (e.g. Manston has inadequate security provision and other facilites while Luton has an insufficiently long runway for 747 Freighter operations; etc etc etc . . .

Somehow, I don't think we'll be seeing BA Cargo in Manston for a while!

[Manston Airport]

(e.g. Manston has inadequate security provision and other facilites while Luton has an insufficiently long runway for 747 Freighter operations; etc etc etc . . .


Right so Manston runway is not longer then Luton's :hmm::confused:

Luton 7,087ft
Manston 9,029ft

Plus whats the max take off weight for a 747?

James

[manstonman]

The BA response document says: Manston has inadequate security provision and other facilities (which BA don't specify), runway length isn't an issue.

[Paradism]

The detail beats me but this is all you ever wanted to know about Manston's runway:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/64/DAP_ACD_TYPEA_EGMH.pdf

[deedave]

BA cargo at MSE is a rumour that some people have been attempting to float for at least 10 years.
I daresay they will try and float it for the next 10 years as well.

At one point, it made it into the local media.

At the time, the owners pointed out that the runway was long enough for a fully loaded B747 to arrive, but a similarly loaded aircraft would be unable to depart without a runway extension.
.

[Throat]

Out of academic interest, do BA Cargo(GSS) actually have any direct long Haul flights out of Stansted, the only ones I've ever seen are via Germany. (And have better take off performance than Ryanair’s 737, so could properly use Lydd!)

[manstonman]

But why would they want to use a place that's even further beyond the back of beyond:confused:?

[manstonman]

Runway extension? Now the water pipe's been re-routed I guess they could get on and do it.

[airhumberside]

Wsn't there a public meeting about MSE last night? Any significant news from it?

[manstonman]

It's taken a long time but at last . . . .

KENT Escapes, the holiday charter company operating from Kent International Airport, near Ramsgate, has confirmed its summer break programme will include Palma, Majorca, as well as Las Palmas in the Canary Islands.
Richard Burke, managing director of Seguro Holidays , the operators of Kent Escapes, said: "Palma proved very popular last season and we are delighted to offer flights to Las Palmas as a new route to the people of Kent.
"The British holidaymaker is increasingly eager to try something new and the nation’s love affair with holidays to Benidorm and the Costa Blanca, served by flights into Alicante continues to wane. As a result the route will not be part of the Kent Escapes’ 2008 programme."
Flights to Las Palmas will be operated by Futura Airways, an airline with 32 aircraft in its fleet and the Kent Escapes passengers will fly aboard a Boeing 737 800. The flights to Palma will be aboard an Airbus A320 aircraft operated by LTE, a longstanding and respected airline operating from Majorca.
Mr Burke added: "In 2007 we saw a significant increase in the number of passengers we welcomed at Kent International Airport and we are confident our 2008 programme will prove to be popular.
"We have also added to the number of hotels and self-catering accommodation we now offer."

[deedave]

Surprised they're only confirming now.

PMI has been on their website for a while now.

The summer programme looks like 23-ish return flights - around 70% reduction on last year's capacity.

[tommyc2005]

I too am surprised by apparrently lacklustre release of the 08 programme, even more so by the lack of it. Much different to what I was led to believe earlier; I am shocked that Faro isn't there as yet, I was told it would be status quo on last year with the PIK a/c performing a W. I was also told that the new route would be all season, not just for 5 weeks. I have no confidence at the moment in the winter TFS actually being launched. On the possible plus side though, the Thursday PIK Faro schedule does still suggest a W elsewhere, but I suppose that could change.

Faro's figures for 07 were only slightly less than Palma's - Faro averaged 107, Palma 116. On the one hand both figures are slightly poor, but they aren't diabolical either. A firm foundation on which to build, if a little more oomph were put into marketing. Interestingly, as in 06, August was slower, something that leaving it until Nov/Dec to release the programme will do little to alleviate. Alicante averaged about 77 per flight, no shock that it went but early signs had been promising.

[manstonman]

"Wasn't there a public meeting about MSE last night? Any significant news from it?"

I went along. Hardly anyone turned up. There was a guy with an anorak who grilled the airport manager about progress on business flights. Apparently, the airport had sent a questionnaire out to the guy with the anorak earlier in the year. The airport manager was unable to report any progress at all. Still, the big advantage of Manston being so quiet is that the meeting could be held in the unused departure lounge.

Did you go out of personal interest or on behalf of others?

[kellyoldsmunt]

i think the BA cargo hope is still blowing in the wind, but they have been down to 'measure up' so as to use the space for pos.future diverts and as the expansion of echo is due to start very soon, they could dump, sorry, park quite a few units there. that would be after they move the radar to a new posn. for a clearer picture!

[HZ123]

As an employee it is most unlikely that BAWC would consider a move to KIA. Besides which it would be the decision of Global Logistics, that completely manage the package which BA outsource to them. Our bit is in the marketing and I see little credit in encouraging shippers to use your airport. I hope your summer programme helps the airport but it is depressing to see so few movements. I read the thread often but from the accountants view KIA cannot make any monies and continues to be a drain on whomever owns / runs it.

[no slots]

Could ASW be using MSE as part of their expansion next year?

[honest man]

Ipresume there was poor weather down there today when there was an OHK B744 training at Prestwick today?

[Paradism]

From the CAA

An Application for a Type B Operating Licence has been made by:
Sky Charter UK Limited
The Helicopter Centre
Manston Business Park
Manston
Kent
CT12 5DE

Helicopters! They have their ups and downs.

[Twitcher]

I went along. Hardly anyone turned up. There was a guy with an anorak who grilled the airport manager about progress on business flights. Apparently, the airport had sent a questionnaire out to the guy with the anorak earlier in the year. The airport manager was unable to report any progress at all. Still, the big advantage of Manston being so quiet is that the meeting could be held in the unused departure lounge.

Maybe you nodded off at this point but I read in the local press that Infratil mentioned at the meeting that next year they will release details of their 20 year plan for the airport.

[furmanek]

could you reference the "local press" article so that we can all check it out?

[Twitcher]

The Thanet Times dated 11 December, I read it in Tesco...I don't have it here to quote from exactly :}

[Paradism]

A precis of the announcement from Infratil re. KIA:

3,758 tonnes of freight in November, 26% increase over previous but 10% less than October total.

MK Airlines, Egypt Air and Cargolux continued regular services.

The year to date freight 17,245 tonnes November end.

Turkish A300 freight operator ACT Airlines, new customer.

Kent Escapes programme discussed plus Channel Island Travel Services will operate a weekly flight from KIA to Jersey in 2008.

KIA and Oasis Hong Kong Airlines, entered into a sponsorship agreement with a local environmental project, Trees for Thanet.

Full details available from Infratil website.

[Manston Airport]

plus Channel Island Travel Services will operate a weekly flight from KIA to Jersey in 2008

Be like the old days on a Saturday when A Aurigny Shorts SD3-60 did JEY-MSE-JEY:rolleyes: Will it be done by Aurigny? :hmm:


James

[Expressflight]

The MSE-JER would probably be flown by VLM as they operate many of the Channel Islands Travel Service weekend flights from various UK airports. Manston isn't yet on the CITS website as a destination for 2008.

[manstonman]

CITS comfirmed to me this afternoon that Manston - Jersey will be flown by VLM

[euroairport]

What do we know about ACT.
A one off, or using the airport weekly.
I have noticed that Atlas now use the place from time to time, one in tonight.
What's the news with the new owners of DAS any movements ?.

[manstonman]

Smart Wings charter to Prague in tomorrow

[Throat]

What do we know about ACT.
A one off, or using the airport weekly.

- Not sure, The only ACT, I remember visiting lately was the empost with the horses.

I have noticed that Atlas now use the place from time to time, one in tonight. A Wild Guess - Spice Girls tour set

[EGMH]

In total there has been 3 ACT airlines flights. 2 on horse carrying missions and another not related.

[manstonman]

:rolleyes: Very much alive and kickin' and are worth a small fortune.

[dionysius]

have asked before. is the bip now operational and open to handle livestock flights . if so they could increase the number of cargo flights as ostend tend to cater for horse flights.

[manstonman]

Anybody know anything about the emergency at manston yesterday?

[EGMH]

It was an African International DC-8 which had to turn back due engine fire warning indicator.

[Paradism]

A little more about the Direct flights from Manston airport to the Channel Islands next year from Kent News.

Starting May 10, every Saturday, KIA departing 3 p.m. to Jersey.

VLM Fokker 50 aeroplane operated by CI Travel Holdings Ltd.

A quote from the article in Kent News: “Among the factors that led us to choose Kent International Airport were the un-congested roads right to the airport, low cost car parking beside the terminal building, 60-minute check in times with no long walks to the departure gate, and overall a more relaxing airport experience."
--------
Fokker 50 has about 50 seats depending on density, max about 58 if crammed in.:uhoh:

[Barnaby the Bear]

Any extra flights have to be good news. But the factors quoted about the decision to use Manston must have been small. What other alternate airports are there not already flying to JER in the SE?
Lydd? They have uncongested roads albeit very small ones (and when no tractors are in the way) :}.. I bet parking is cheap, and I can guarantee check in times would be swift :}
Manstonman, your post on the 13th. C'mon you don't have to be the flight announcer.... Besides the website already has one! :E:E

[manstonman]

:ouch: Point taken, maybe I was just a bit too over-excited at the prospect of real live punters and not airport staff using the terminal again.
Anyone know why a Travel Service 737 been in a couple of times recently?

[EGMH]

The Travel Service 737 was doing a Newmarket holidays' weekend break to Prague.

Nice to see 2 MK 747's full with produce today.

[euroairport]

The Airport has it's first Hotel in a few weeks the Express By Holiday Inn Kent International Airport - Minster, which opens in the new year.

A strong sign that the whole area is on the up.

Who would like to write a review for the airport for 2007 ?.

[Barnaby the Bear]

Don't tempt me!:E:E:E

[Thanetflyer]

Good news about these flights. I do however remember that EU Jet tried the Jersey route and gave up on it after a few months. I suppose the aircraft are much smaller and so may be more viable. We have friends in Jersey so will definitely use the service if it survives.

[kellyoldsmunt]

the diference being that eujet was a scheduled service and not charter, something that a lot people especialy the press seem to not understand :ugh:

[pamann]

And don't forget that before EUJet there was a Saturday charter operated to Jersey by GR if I remember correctly?

[Twitcher]

I see their website is totally missing at the moment! Maybe they are giving it a long overdue overhaul.... but those clowns really need to sort themselves out!

[Paradism]

According to Kent News, KIA have announced another travel show to take place on January 12 between 10am and 4pm at the airport. It will be interesting to see if anything new is announced. At the time of posting the news was not on the KIA website.

Re: Kent Escapes website, I also noted its absence. Some of the links to Seguro were also down, so maybe it is a general upgrade in progress.

[manstonman]

I see their website is totally missing at the moment! Maybe they are giving it a long overdue overhaul.... but those clowns really need to sort themselves out!

I've also noticed that the Seguro site is down. Wouldn't surprise me if they've switched their servers off for the Christmas break!!!???? No wonder they have trouble filling their aircraft :mad:

[airhumberside]

Thy better get their site up soon as now is one of the busiest times for people booking summer holidays. A limited web page with a phone number would be better than nothing

[alanlyn]

we have given up with Manston,and holidays retired people dont want to go on holiday,when the children are on holiday, but when they go back to school,the holiday are few and far between,so its back to Gatwick,i hate it at Gatwick.Last year we did have Portugal till October,witch our flight was all most full.

[euroairport]

Business & 1st Class Flights from Kent International, Kent International.

I note getaholiday are offering the above to any destn from Manston any date.
Anyone have info on this.

[san diego]

I would be very wary of a website such as getaholiday It is not a member of ABTA nor, despite its use of the ATOL logo, does it hold an ATOL either. No company can sell flights that do not exist, so be warned!

[honeysweetcombe]

Happy New Year to all at MSE

[Twitcher]

Kent International Airport is hosting a holiday show to give local holidaymakers a taste of what is in store at a host of destinations. The show, in the terminal building, will include French and Spanish wine sampling, on-the-day holiday deals and the chance to win free breaks in Jersey or Verona. There will also be a range of entertainments for the whole family, including displays by the airport's fire and rescue service.

The show takes place on January 12 between 10:00 and 16:00. Matt Clarke, chief executive of Kent International Airport, said: 'We are really excited about the range of destinations our holiday providers are offering for 2008 and anticipate a great response from the people of Kent. The previous holiday shows we have hosted have proved extremely popular and the discounts available make it the perfect opportunity to book a summer holiday.'

[alanlyn]

A HOST OF DESTINATIONS ;;;;,PERHAPS I MISREAD THE THREE PLACES ON OFFER, THAT INCLUDES THE SATURDAY ONE TO Jersey.very disapointed myself,i was looking for an increase in holiday options,not a decrease in options.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[airhumberside]

It will include the Newmarket destinations served once or twice a year

[Twitcher]

Ah yes....but don't forget all the holidays with Newmarket, there are 13 holidays there too.

[euroairport]

Not a word about Kent Escapes, web site gone. ?
has the plug been pulled ?
No adverts in local press at the peak holiday booking time .
No posters in local travel agent.

[manstonman]

Both Kent Escapes and Seguro websites are suffering from "massive problems" according to one of their agents, the company has "definitely not" gone out of business.

[EIDFZ]

I still cant work out why there is no decent advertising in respect of the flights avaliable from Kent International, a big bill board poster on the wall of the terminal building will only be seen by people who already know the airport is there, whats wrong with the bill board at Pegwell !! like any company, advertising in a major part of its development.:ugh::rolleyes:

[Paradism]

I am at a loss to understand the lack of properly co-ordinated KIA internet publicity. There seem to be two unconnected websites:
kentinternationalairport-manston.com and manstonairport.org.uk. The second site was updated 2nd Jan 08 by the addition of a press release, which is very easy to miss, in the bottom RH corner announcing the Jersey flights. There does not appear to be any link between the two sites. Manstonairport.org.uk is more comprehensive since it contains all the "piloty" stuff whilst the KIA site seems to be consumer aimed.

Many UK airports have one site with appropriate links to the various types of information, this is what KIA needs. A more professional approach could work wonders.

[Jes]

They are unconnected.

[Manston Airport]

One website is done by the airport owner's and the other by someone who is intrested in Manston Airport I think. You may all know that BAA are going on strike soon so I am wondering what airlines plan to use Manston I bet Oasis will come to MSE is there any others? Lets hope they dont do when BA wanted to use MSE :ugh:

James

[EIDFZ]

Manstonairport.org.uk is run by a chap from T.G.Aviation, totally unrelated to Infratil Airports. Did hear that KIA even picked up some work from the site, perhaps he should be on the pay roll ;)

[Expressflight]

Do keep up James :) - the strikes have been called off.

[manstonman]

I e-mailed them some time ago about their website, apparently it's in the process of being redesigned.
Totally unrelated, what's happening with that 707?

[Twitcher]

I'm sure it wasn't too long ago that someone posted on here that it would be better to not open the airport for training flights and to keep ATC at home to cut costs :}

[niknak]

CatFlaps

No they're paid in a combination of share options, flying lessons and if they exceed their targets each week, they get sweeties...:rolleyes::=:E

Back to the real world, Manston ATCOs get a very competitive salary, good luck to them.

[Twitcher]

I see the websites are back. The Kentescapes website directs you to the Seguro site now, which is in BETA mode itself. At least they have something to direct people to at the open weekend coming up.

[Hangar_9]

What show :eek:........:p

If only Infratil could advertise such things on there own website?:ugh:

[manstonman]

I see that KentEscapes/Seguro are going out of their way to make it as difficult as possible to book flights again, the sites are currently undergoing "routine maintenance":ugh:

[alanlyn]

Kent Escapes is a joke ,offering very little ,but less every year,Manston working overtime to promote the air port,it needs a good reliable company behind them.:)

[niknak]

Travel agencies expect a commision from each holiday they sell and I suppose Kent Escapes are no different, if they aren't getting a decent cut, they won't headline Manston as the place to fly from.

Alternatively, Manston could do what many other regional airports do and set up their own travel agency, but this costs a fortune in start up and in annual running costs, takes a couple of years before they establish themselves and they have to cope with cut throat competition in the area.

Perhaps Manston will just have to take the plunge and decide which is more cost effective - reduce their own profit margin and pay the travel agent the going rate or set up their own.

[Private Flyer]

For eidfz,catflaps etc,
A few days ago, someone mentioned that pprune was talking about me.
So, I couldn't resist, so I joined.
I am "the chap from TG" who runs the website www.manstonairport.org.uk (http://www.manstonairport.org.uk)
I'm not part of anybody's organisation , but as I do a bit of private flying I hang around at TG somewhat.
The website started life purely for information for the private flyer just 18 months ago. Then I started to get "enquiries" and I have been able to pass on a couple which resulted in work. eg, Cargolux and VLM are the obvious.
I got permission from Matt Clarke to add some links for the airport, and that is where we are.
Do I have any more facts than anyone else? Well facts for MSE are like the stuff that comes out the rear end of rocking horses. But.
I had an e-mail conversation with the "charter manager " of VLM on the 28th Dec and at that time he said the Jersey flights are agreed, but contracts were not signed at that point.
As VLM are already involved in regional scheduled flights in UK , I also asked him if they had any interest in flying from Manston to say Dublin. In a word--NO.

Will Kent Escapes survive? Well it is like a shop that is never open. so where will that lead?
Freight is the answer to Manston it is said, and that is the business plan isn't it? Other than a few charters that is it.

[Expressflight]

At last!

A sensible post from someone who has actually got off his backside, done some research, spoken to an airline or two and produced a useful website.

A few of the regular posters here could learn from Private Flyer and limit their contributions to information they actually have, or rumours they have actually heard, rather than their constant speculation.

[Private Flyer]

Expressflight , don't be too hard on the regulars. After all it is a "rumour network".
Apart form that , thanks for the compliment

[manstonman]

Can't find a Lydd thread anywhere but this may be of interest here. The decision on whether or not Lydd was going to be allowed to expand was to be made on January 31st, this has now been postponed. The planning people apparently need more time and information.
The speculation is that because of the Government's new found fondness for nucleur power, Dungeness is one of the site's being earmarked for a new power station and the close proximity of an expanded Lydd is thought to present a major danger.

[Twitcher]

The following statement on their currently offline website will cause some of you to choke on your coffee.....

>
>
Due to overwhelming demand for Seguro Holidays 2008 season, we are having to upgrade our servers.

[manstonman]

It was mentioned in a news report on the radio this afternoon. It was being suggested that there is a strong possibility Dungeness could be chosen as the site for one of these new reactors and the delay is as a result of that.

[Private Flyer]

In common with all nuclear power stations , Dungeness has a two mile radius exclusion zone up to a height of 2000ft. Lydd already comes mighty close to that on it's southern boundary. So as I see it the only possible runway extension is to the North East back towards the built up area.
Hence there is a noise/environmental problem. Why Shepway is short of information on this is puzzling, one can only speculate. (costs money).
The existing reactor (one only operational) is programmed to be used for another ten to fifteen years, so any new build is not relevant, unless it gets any closer to Lydd Airport. (sorry, Ashford International Airport)

Also another constraint to the SW of Lydd is the Danger Area around firing ranges.
Returning to Manston
I see this morning that there is still "an overwhelming demand" at Seguro.

[manstonman]

All the stuff appertaining to the application can be found here:
http://www.kentnet.org.uk/laag/index.htm
Sorry to hijack this thread but can't find anywhere else to put it (behave)

[niknak]

Extraodinary isn't it!

Given the choice of a nuclear power station, which, however unlikely, could go bang and radiate the whole of northern Europe for 100s of years, against a runway extension at Lydd, whic, at the most would mean minimal increased noise for a very small part of the catchment area, they prefer the nuclear option.

It's a crazy world!:rolleyes::ugh::(

[Private Flyer]

Summer and Kent Escapes. In case members have not seen before.
the 2008 brochure shows two destinations, Gran Canaria Las Palmas and Majorca.

Majorca has 20 flights May thru Oct.
Mainly concentrated August and Sept.

Las Palmas has weekly flights from 29th July to 26th August. (School holidays .??)

[Jes]

Let's have some good news/rumours.

Cargo topped 4,000 tonnes in December.

Access to E apron is being improved.

An existing operator is planning a new freight route.

[manstonman]

Seems that things are beginning to progress slowly but surely, over on their web site they're advertising for:
Security Officer (http://www.kentinternationalairport-manston.com/careers.asp#Security_Officer)
Air Traffic Control Officer (http://www.kentinternationalairport-manston.com/careers.asp#Air_Traffic_Control_Officer)
Motor Transport Technician (http://www.kentinternationalairport-manston.com/careers.asp#Motor_Transport_Technician)
Ramp Agent (http://www.kentinternationalairport-manston.com/careers.asp#Ramp_Agent)

[EGMH]

Infratil December report for KIA-M

Total freight volume in December was 4,082 tonnes, 1,029 tonnes higher than the prior year total of 3,053 tonnes (+33.7%).

[Barnaby the Bear]

Same old useless thread. :ugh:

[manstonman]

Same old useless thread. :ugh:

Don't contribute to it then:rolleyes:

[MDIS]

Well said Manstonman

[manstonman]

Didn't hear mention of Dungeness on the radio. No mention of it in this report either.
http://www.localrags.co.uk/index.php...ticle&sid=4642 (http://www.localrags.co.uk/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=4642)

I suspect you are trying to suggest that I am posting misleading information. However, if you really are that interested in the radio report I mentioned, give me a day or two to find it and I'll upload it somewhere for you (or anyone else) to listen to.

[Manston Airport]

Access to E apron is being improved.

An existing operator is planning a new freight route.


Is E apron the Cargo ramp? :O Is this the route Cargolux planned on starting? :hmm:

James

[manstonman]

AIR traffic chaos at Heathrow, caused by the recent Boeing 777 emergency, was alleviated by Manston’s Kent International Airport.
With planes stacking up over Heathrow, air traffic controllers took the decision to divert planes to other airports including Kent International Airport.
Staff at Manston swung into action just minutes after the emergency to receive a British Airways Airbus 319 inbound from Dusseldorff.
After refuelling the plane, its passengers and crew took off for Heathrow.
Matt Clarke, Chief Executive of Kent International, said: "KIA is outside the London Air Traffic Management Area and with a flight time of just 15 minutes between us and Heathrow we are perfectly placed to help mitigate the impact of any disruption there.
"We could have handled many more of the 24 flights that were redirected and once again this shows the value of KIA as a regional airport and an alternative to airports operating at or near full capacity."

[Jetscream 32]

Best diversion day we had when i was there was 9 blue and white a/c all over the place. - chaos but fun....!

MSE could do 250,000 pax per annum no sweat, but visions or rose tinted specs for any pax numbers greater than 400,000 will never ever happen.

Half a dozen routes with a few atr 42's and a couple of charter 737 rotations for the summer season as already happening - best thing that could happen.

Not the 5th airport, not a major player just a regional airport for limited catchment and a decent length runway for freight dogs - altho revenues would jump massively if they extended the western end by 300 mtrs, as they could then take the 744 or md-11 long haul at MAUW :E

Say hello to Gina and mark for me....... :}

[alanlyn]

Did Not Under Stand Any Of That,please Explain,thank You:*:*

[niknak]

Good news that the diversions chose KIA, but this was a one off and totally exceptional event.

I would wager that not one of the the flights which did divert would ever be considered as a regular operation to/from KIA.

It would be great if Manston makes a success of the forthcoming summer season, but nothing should be construed from the events of last week as regards the future success of Manston, no airport makes money by waiting for diversions.

That's commercial reality folks.

[Expressflight]

Should that not read "......the diversion chose KIA" in the singular?

I thought it was just one A319 that diverted last Thursday.

[Twitcher]

Business leaders hope the opening of a new 105-bedroom hotel near Kent International Airport at Manston is a sign of confidence in Thanet.
The once-derelict, listed Art Deco Prospect Inn pub has been renovated and become the new hotel's foyer.

"A delegation of four recently went from Thanet to China to try to persuade the Chinese to invest in Manston," said Chamber of Commerce boss David Foley.

"We believe they have and there will be an official announcement in months."

Manston airport closed in July 2005 after the collapse of owner PlaneStation and budget airline EUjet.

It was bought the following month for £17m by New Zealand-based air operator Infratil.

"Infratil operate Glasgow Prestwick, which is where Ryanair flies," said Mr Foley.
"I don't think it would be a great surprise if within the next two years Ryanair started to operate flights from Manston.

"This would be a tremendous boon, not only to the local economy but to the whole of the South East."

Most of Thanet's accommodation is within easy reach of its seaside resorts including Margate and Broadstairs.

The hotel, built behind the 1937 Prospect Inn, will be operated as a Holiday Inn Express.

"We had a number of feasibility reports carried out when we acquired the site," said Jas Dhoopa, spokesman for developer Geminex.

"We do believe the airport, in time, will get a low-cost carrier.

"But there is enough business in the area, with the business parks and Pfizer to carry 105 bedrooms."

[airhumberside]

"I don't think it would be a great surprise if within the next two years Ryanair started to operate flights from Manston.
With all due respect to Mr Foley it sounds very much like he is putting two and two together and getting five. Just because FR serve PIK doesnt mean they will serve Manston. Indeed from Infratil reports they cant agree terms for major expansion with FR at PIK, so clearly the relationship isnt that good between the two currently

Would be great for MSE to get a LoCo but surely such comments just serve to raise hopes unneccessarily?

[Jetscream 32]

Back in 2001 when i was at MSE i got a contract offer from Sean Coyle for PIK flights then 2 further destinations within 18 months - he was only going to pay a FEW quid per pax all inclusive - i took it to the (large) controller at Berkely Square and said my recommendation was to take it and accept that we would have to be sharp and clever in landside revenues and car parking, and media sales etc to make the shortfall from what FR were going to pay but at least it would kick start us and get pax numbers flowing.

I also got an offer with KLM for an ATR 42 3 x times to AMS daily and got Pfizer to also lend considerable support... again took it too the now (larger) controller in Berkely Square to again be told to stop wasting his time and that he only wanted jets that paid full price or a fair price for said luxury of landing in Thanet...... :ugh:

After much bored..room infighting and the seaford $ervert bringing his chum along from paddy land - my deals were rejected for the clearly coherent business plan of EUjet...... I still have the full stock market business plan and fundraising prospectus - which i keep for rainy days..... :rolleyes: now i know how the country ends up with credit cooling if it was that easy to raise £25 milion quid from institutions based on such drivel and horse crap in a business plan.... Still at least Infratil have a long term view rather than pipe dreams..

Ho hum..! :}

[mattdking]

Two flights tomorrow from Manston operated by Thomson to Hamburg anyone know anything more about this?

[manstonman]

See they are due to go at 1700 and 17.50. Can't seem to find any reference to them anywhere else other than on their Daisy thingy.

[niknak]

Jetscream

I sniff bull****:rolleyes::confused:

Your plans for world domination sound pretty good but in reallity are of questionable substance.
I would love to see your evidence that the then owners of Manston turned down your proposals, especially the KLM proposal.

More than that, you claim to have done all this in or around 2001, but it appears that you've not been involved in anything in aviation with any success during one of the UK's most prosperous economic periods since?

Put up or shut up.

[Jetscream 32]

hey niknak - wow, didnt know you were such a good friend that knows me so well? - so the last time we met was???? --- hmmm me thinks never? - quite opinionated and un-imformed i think - where does the world domination thing come from??? you have no idea about my career - so wind your neck in...! :mad:

There are plenty of people from Wiggins still around and working at the airport who are able to verify the content of my previous post.... so how about you getting back in your cage...

:ouch:

[no slots]

Hey boys calm down eh eh calm down (scouse accent}
I do believe I know you both. Jetscream32 is actually telling the truth.It was well known at the time amongst the people there but as 32 said fatman was'nt interested in his proposals because they were "small fry".Its was always the case of trying to run before you can walk with the previous regime which ultimatley lead to their downfall. We'll never know, but I wonder if 32's proposal had been accepted if the old place would have been ticking away quite nicely today with everybody reasonably happy.Now play nicely:ugh:

[PPRuNe Pop]

Cut out the slagging guys.

PPP

[Jetscream 32]

Humble apologies - thanks no slots - im happy to come back and set it all up again if they want to pay me sums of cash that merits it... if only because i dont have a Stearman to fly down here altho the beach is nicer :}

[Paradism]

I see from Daisy that the Thomsonfly flights have indeed taken place, both 737's duly off to Hamburg.

[niknak]

Jetscream - you're not who I thought you were and I've also been put right by another source, so humble apologies old chap.
Niknak - wearing sackcloth and sitting on barbed wire.

[Jetscream 32]

:ok: no probs

[Paradism]

I see that Daisy is listing another Hamburg flight from Manston, anyone know what these flights are?

[Twitcher]

Passengers are for Cruises from/to Dover I believe :ok:

[Jes]

They're cruise ship crews.

[euroairport]

Picked up this little bit on infratil's web site. !!
A provisional deal was agreed with, Kent International Airport, where The Change Group will start operating when the number of international passengers using the airport passes the 500,000 mark.
I wonder when ?

[EIDFZ]

Hi What/who are the change group, sounds like LOST to me.

Jetstream, nice to know your still around, Nxxx i hope, always held back by threaterened individuals.

EIDFZ

[Paradism]

They are currency exchange specialists, easily found on the web.

[manstonman]

I see they're advertising now for a Travel shop assistant and an Executive Administrator is required to join the companyin a period of growth and expansion. Interesting!

[Taildragger]

Manstonman .... I doubt they would get many takers if the said something like "in a period of negative growth and downward passenger numbers and freight loadings" would they.?? :bored:

[manstonman]

They could of course have said nothing. Last year there were no jobs advertised at all, this year already 5 positions have been advertised. Not huge numbers I know but a sign to me that the airport is not going to end up as a housing estate in the near future.
Judging by the number of movements already this year, the amount of new equipment that's been brought in and the money that's being spent around the place generally I think Manston could be in for a very interesting year.

[Jes]

My spies tell me that cargo handled in January was 35% up on January 2007.

Only Wx diversions stopped it being another 4,000 ton month.

[catflaps]

"this year already 5 positions have been advertised."

Signs of high turnover, perhaps?

[africa man]

coming shortly you may soon see some interesting movements from west africa arriving for mx once the old Das Engineering facility is up and running with the new owners..

[alanlyn]

can some one tell me what is mx short for,thank you :confused::confused::confused:

[Expressflight]

Maintenance.

[eddieukuk]

Can anyone tell me if there is any future for low cost passenger scheduled traffic from Manston after the demise of EUJet. ie with J41 or ATR42 on the following:-
say MSE-MAN MSE-AMS MSE-DUB MSE-PARIS MSE-JER
MSE-NCL MSE-EDI MSE-PIK ???? or any other routes.

What are peoples feelings on a new conservative operator which is marketed properly and well funded. Start small with organic growth with proper equipment.

[alanlyn]

i personally think we need a service like e.u. jet offered but this time build up to a good reliable company.and dont spend your profits before you make them.good to see someone in Cornwall is interested in manston. everything you said makes sense .regardless of negative comments.

[eddieukuk]

We were looking into the possibility of J41's or ATR42's with a limited structure of say four or five routes to start with, being that this is mainly a "gut feeling" forum I was looking for ppls inputs.

[Twitcher]

Dublin, Edinburgh and Amsterdam would be the three I would choose to run if all were served with an early morning and late evening service. Eujet were planning to run an ATR on some of these routes.

[cornishsimon]

from another Cornish poster.......

how about an airline such as WOW using DH8-300's for some select services for instance they already have handleing contracts in place at the likes of DUB, GLA, NQY, NCL, JER etc

[Serenity]

How about getting Eastern to base/run some J41`s through Manston?Perfect for AMS, BRU, CDG! :ok:

[Paradism]

eddieukuk

Clearly there is a demand for air travel from MSE, EUjet demonstrated that. It was generally accepted that they used the wrong aircraft and did not dump their low load factor routes quickly enough. There was a lot of discussion of the Planestation/EUjet combo, not only on this site but also on financial websites which may be worthwhile for your research.

Despite what others may say, I have relatives who regularly used the MSE/Spain services and others who used the Manchester/MSE route whilst living in Cumbria. The MSE/MAN route was no more expensive than rail and was a lot more convenient. The crucial aspect was the saving of the London rail interchange. I know that one journey was 42 minutes flight time whereas the train London to Thanet took significantly longer.

Good luck to you if you go ahead.

[V800]

As a resident of SE London I would love to fly from MSE again, but it will only be on a reliable airline that can publish a timetable and stick to it.

My experience with EU Jet was a trip to Nice where they pulled forward the return flight time without telling anyone and I only just made check in, followed by a day return to Amsterdam when they cut back to a single daily flight I cancelled and got my refund just before they went bust.

The Kent Escapes farce last year with that MD80 has also left them and by association the airport with a tarnished reputation.

Perhaps the airport need to do a deal whereby the reductions in landing fees are in the form of a rebate following satisfactory performance and in the case of a KLM feeder to Amsterdam the passengers bags turning up on the same flight.

[niknak]

Eastern don't do low cost operations, it's unlikely that they'd be interested in operating from Manston unless certain guarantees were in place and there was a proven demand for their type of service, although Manchester is a possibility.

The only realistic operator to AMS is KLM or VLM, as has been suggested previously the majority of AMS passengers from UK regional airports are interlining onward and no other operator can afford to provide such a service.

I've no doubt that low cost to Dublin and probably Edinburgh/Glasgow would sell like hot cakes, it's purely a matter of attracting the likes of Flybe, possibly Ryanair and that's no easy task given their demands.

Now that Eurostar have pulled direct services to Brussels from the UK, a BRU service may work, but competition elsewhere may put the kybosh on that.

As with many routes elsewhere, when one starts up, others follow, hopefully that will be the case here.

[Jetscream 32]

eddie,

sounds like you have the business plan i wrote for MSE 7 years ago - j41 or atr-42 is the perfect a/c for mse, first year pax numbers 30,000 rising to peak of 80-100,000 after 4/5 years - primarily business routes, with avg sector times of 75 mins, avg fare price of 99 each way.

not all your routes i would fly, but some certainly
i had contract negotiations with pfizer and cummins and saga as well as several others.

Eastern would fly any route i wanted as long as we underwrote them and basically guaranteed the route financially, the fat controller denied.......

KLM came to table - the fat controller denied..... VLM said no due to dilution of LCY pax base.

if your serious about operating from mse then i will stop what im doing, as i have started revisiting my original plans - to set this up....

great minds think alike.....

cheers :D

[eddieukuk]

Thanks for the candid responses. Does anyone know anything about J31's to be really conservative about load factors.

ie MSE-AMS MSE-MAN-DUB ??

Any more ideas ??

[honest man]

The same farce happened at Prestwick last year but Seguro as we know them have survived albeit some pax that got caught up probably wont be back

[manstonman]

Thanks for the candid responses. Does anyone know anything about J31's to be really conservative about load factors.

ie MSE-AMS MSE-MAN-DUB ??

Any more ideas ??

There's over 700,000 (and rising - fast) East Europeans living here . . . . and the weekend party crowd would be interested in some of those destinations too.

[deedave]

eddieukuk

Asking the opinions of local private pilots regarding commercial route possibilities seems an odd choice.

With the greatest respect to fellow posters, most ppl's and other visitors to this forum have vested interests - primarily keeping the runway open so they can continue to pursue their hobby.

If you really want to assess the situation, you should should visit East Kent for a couple of weeks and research the social and economic climate here. I would also recommend you spend an afternoon studying previous pprune Manston threads in detail.

As someone who has financed Manston in the past I would offer the following advice.

The global economic situation has changed substantially for the worse since EUjet days, and that change continues.
Locally, while there are a number of new local initiatives in place, there have been substantial employment and business losses in the last 5 years, and you will not find these reported on this thread. Also, the hitherto vigorous and vocal political support for MSE seems to have evaporated.
The fiscal prognosis for a regional like Manston remains poor.

What is more important than aircraft type and routes, is your source of funding.
"Manston" and "profit" have never occupied the same sentence so you will need money and lots of it. Infratil have certainly underwritten operations in the past, although whether they would do this for a turboprop operation I do not know.
If you have managed to find other people interested in sustaining indefinite losses in a "vanity" operation, then well done and good luck.

One thing I have learned is that there are people who are more interested in the thrill of putting aircraft into the sky than turning a profit, and Manston may continue to function on this basis for many years.

[Baltasound]

Now that Eurostar have pulled direct services to Brussels from the UK, a BRU service may work, but competition elsewhere may put the kybosh on that.


Bemused; since when have Eurostar pulled Brussels from the UK? I presume you mean from Ashford, which is true as the service there has been transferred to Ebbsfleet instead to all intents and purposes. Which from North Thanet/ Medway maybe easier to access - I will leave it to the locals to comment on that.


[QUOTE] Despite what others may say, I have relatives who regularly used the MSE/Spain services and others who used the Manchester/MSE route whilst living in Cumbria. The MSE/MAN route was no more expensive than rail and was a lot more convenient. The crucial aspect was the saving of the London rail interchange. I know that one journey was 42 minutes flight time whereas the train London to Thanet took significantly longer.
[QUOTE]

Plus from 2009 there will be a move to shift some Thanet Railway services out of the S.London terminals to St Pancras via HSL2 - with a stop at Stratford and from there it will be a 20min or so hop to LCY. So domestically Ashford etc will come within 30mins of London.

[flightless]

to back up Paradism regarding the flights to Spain (Murcia, Alicante) I also have friends and relatives that used the E.U jet flight to Murcia, I myself used them 5 times during thier short stay at Manston. You know a lot of us 'Kent Bumkins' actually own properties on the Costa Blanca so to fly from Manston was a dream. This could also explain why the take up on the the 'Benidorm Package holiday' was so poor, most of the takers on that route wanted 'Flight Only'.
I feel that 'Kent Escapes' fiasco's unfortunatly have left a big black mark against Manston, lots of people assume that 'Kent Escapes' and 'Kent International Airport' are one and the same therefore lots of moans and groans regarding the holidays are directed at Manston and not Seguro Holidays.
Some time back at one of KIA open days they did a survey that was directed at business travellers they said they would be doing one for us pleasure trippers, but as yet nothing.

[Jetscream 32]

deedave

what you say is completely correct - the eu jet was farcical and i resigned over deal when it was tabled - as you cannot force bums on seats irrespective of aircraft size.

A small regional business airline operating primarily for the business market will sustain 2-5 30/42 seat aircraft with no real dramas at all - the seat price will mirror eastern airways and cannot survive if you think a loco can make it happen - it wont.

The market for mse will be niche as their is insufficient demand for a q400 so the market should be fairly secure for the incumbent operator small, high quality, efficient regional airline serving the local business community.

[eddieukuk]

Thank you for the feedback everyone both positive and negative. Gives us some food for thought.
Many thanks
Can anyone comment on the Manx2 set up ?

[niknak]

Balta - quite correct, I was under the impression that Eurostar no longer did any services to Brussels - I'll clean me spec's.:)

[honeysweetcombe]

I was one of the number 1's,Cabin Crew, for Eu jet and can safely say that MAN was a profitable route along with EDI, AMS, Murcia, DUB, infact all the Spanish routes were good. However the likes of Nice were not good with only 6 paxs sometimes they felt like they had their own privat jet!!! PM me if you need any further details.

[EIDFZ]

HONEYSWEETCOMBE is exactly right, i worked in dispatch in the EU-JET days and the figures were approx EDI 72 out/in every day MAN 60 out/in everyday DUB and AMS were the same, DAVEDEE is right, private pilots aren't the people you should take advise from, but then bitter money looseing shareholders aren't either. Someone at Manston must have the figures for all routes that were flown, i think you will be suprised by the numbers that did eventually(all be it EUJET had already borrowed to much money by then) use the service in the end, and also the amount of people that traveled from London, i once saw the figures and was amazed. I also was privvy to alot of customer feedback, it was suprising how many people were much more comfortable with travelling from a small airport like Manston than travelling from the big three.
EIDFZ

[flightless]

How great to at last hear the positive side of EUjet endeavours. Its a pity that there hasn't been more information along these lines. I wish someone would get some sort of campaign going to support the airport and to give the general public a chance to say what they want. It seems that the ante brigade always have a voice, but those of us that want to see a budget airline come to Manston, cant seem to get our act together. Perhaps if we made enough noise someone out there would listen.

[Jetscream 32]

flightless,

the chances of mse getting a low cost carrier is almost nil - the market would just about cope with ryanair on a couple of routes but even that may be a long shot.

i do keep saying a little regional airline with some "w" routes would be a sensible plan but pax numbers and confidence for east kent needs to grow in a structured way - not in a way that it all falls apart becuase it has no chance of survival but sounded like it would work.

[flightless]

I agree with your point jetscream but how can pax numbers and confidence grow if there is nothing on offer. We all have our own opinions as to why EUjet failed, starting up on borrowed money is never a good idea and taking on to much to soon I think was thier downfall, but, they did have some success, surely one of the big boys have the courage to put thier toe in the water and try. You cant build on something that isn't there, the longer Manston sits in the shadow of what happened with EUjet the more apathetic the public become.

[Jetscream 32]

they do - but you must remember the reason eu jet failed was because they only had one type of aircraft, and that aircraft was tooo big for the local market to cope with.

the infrastructure costs associated with that type of aircraft and operation never had a chance of survival from day 1 - and being as im the one that put all the other airline deals on the table only to have them rejected beacuse they were too small.........

Oliver Iny in the boardroom at barking mad square in london..... We dont want propellors we only want jets - and they will pay.....

At that point i tendered my resignation.......

[MDIS]

Just look at SOU when they started, albeit with a larger catchment area before any one else says it.

Manx operating as BA Express with 4 J41's and a Manchester based ATR once a day.

Routes were GLA, EDI, BRU, JER, CGI and IOM at weekends. Brymon and Air France operated to CDG and KLM Cityhopper to AMS.

When the market had been proved on the J41s and customer demand had risen sufficiently the aircraft were upgraded to 50 seat Embraers on some of the routes.

This should be the way to approach MSE.

MDIS

[Andy_S]

those of us that want to see a budget airline come to Manston, cant seem to get our act together.

Flightless,

With respect, budget airlines aren't remotely interested in whether you can "get your act together". They are only interested in whether they can make money.

I can't speak for individual EUjet routes, but taken as a whole the average loading over the route structure they operated rarely exceeded 40% (this was clearly demonstrated by the CAA statistics for Manston).

Also, passenger loads and passenger yields are quite different. With the greatest of respect to the people who worked at the airport and for the airline, cabin crew and dispatchers may be better informed than anyone about the number of passengers on board the aircraft, but unless you actually see the detailed financial breakdown of what they're paying vs what the costs are then you're not getting the full picture.

There are many lessons to be learnt from the EUjet debacle, which I don't propose to repeat. But the biggest one, unfortunately, is that Manston doesn't appear able to support a large scale budget airline base. I remember after EUjet folded there were confident predictions that other airlines, having seen what worked, would quickly move in to cherry pick the best routes. We're still waiting.

Jetscream IMO talks sense in describing a more modest proposal, based on a niche operation primarily serving the business traveller and starting with a limited number of routes. Even then, I wonder if sweeteners would be required to attract such an operator.

[Jetscream 32]

im that confident i would do it myself - if i could find a small local syndicate that wanted to bank-roll the pre-operational stage.... however with a STN based airline shortly to be suspended from the stock market - the raising of capital for airline start ups is always difficult.... however not impossible for the right business plan.... ho hum..!:ok:

[MDIS]

How much would be needed?

[deedave]

A few years ago I believed in an optimistic future for Manston so, like many others, I bankrolled the operation.
Now that I understand the realities of this part of the world a little better I can see that commercially viable civil aviation at Manston is not meant to be.

Clearly there are are other visitors to this thread who disagree.

However, back then I was willing to "put my money where my mouth is".
Jetscream is now offering you the opportunity to do the same.

A bit of remortgaging, and an input of 100K each, and you have a nice little syndicate.

Who's first?
.

[catflaps]

Fuel costs are the elephant in the room. Nobody wants to talk about them because the prospects are so alarming.

[Jetscream 32]

thats what hedging is for...... and being as its a new start up - its easy to build your plan on the current price rather than getting in the poo with an existing plan that never accounted for such a hike.. !!

[MDIS]

DD

Do you mean that you bought some shares?

There was me thinking as I look at the correspondence from Grant Thornton that it was the bank that bank rolled the operation.

Lots of people lost money on the shares but do not consider they bank rolled the operation.

If you are so certain the operation being suggested is guaranteed to fail keep your cash in your pocket.

If it fails you can say "I told you so" and you wont have lost any money
If it succeeds perhaps you will be tempted to buy in later!

No one is forcing you!!

MDIS

[deedave]

Infratil reports 3729 tonnes of freight at Manston in January. Down 9% on last month, up 32% on last January. No mention of passenger plans.

Also on freight, it appears MK, now that they have UK AOC, have applied to the CAA "to operate scheduled flights between any combination of points within the holders Air Operators Certificate"

Presumably this will enable them to deliver loads to airports closer to their destination, without having to default to Manston followed by a long road trip.

[Paradism]

Conversely Deedave, it will allow scheduled flights from Manston to anywhere else within the limitations of their AOC.

[Kakpipe Cosmonaut]

Seeing as BAA have stated that the 'new' East terminal (old terminals 1 and 2) will not be ready for the 2012 Olympics, this would be a perfect opportunity for Manston and an airline to step in and establish themselves. There are going to be alot of people and things to be moved in the S/E over the next 4 years, and as long as the infrastructure is efficient to get into London, this could be the making of Manston. It may well be worth investing in improving the infrastructure for this event, as it would certainly be paid back over the next 4 years, then you would have an airport which would finally realise it's potential. And maybe Thanet's potential.

[kellyoldsmunt]

Its a pity that the local council wont give the same support to MSE as the council in Notts. look at the success of Robin Hood airport. from a run down ex-RAF base to a successful, modern pax facility in no time at all.
and you are right to piont out that although certain flights from manston were above average load, it is the profit from those routes that count, not the load, some tickets were sold at £1. with a full load this might equate to £106 per movement, not profitable at all.
manston must have full backing of local council, banks and a succesfull lo-co
company to thrive. unfortunately we thought this would happen within a few months of the demise of eujet, still waiting............

[deedave]

Thanet Council and KCC have bent over backwards to accommodate MSE since day one.

It is only recently that this support has begune to wane.

Also, Kelly, with respect, if you really think a full Fokker can equate to revenue of only £106 then you need to learn a little more about lo-co pricing structures.

[flightless]

Well I think we all realise that selling tickets at £1 was certain suicide for EUjet, but I shouldnt think anyone would expect an experienced carrier to be that stupid. If the price set was a little above the cost from the big three then I am sure people would be prepaired to pay, I for one would !!
I am off to glorious Stansted in a couple of weeks really looking forward to the 2 hour drive finding the parking space waiting for the bus to take me to the terminal and I love the 2 hour check in time, takes longer to get on the plane than the flight to Spain.
I know the flights to Murcia were popular and some of the other destinations, and a lot of the others were a dead loss but its not hard to pick the good from the bad. Smaller planes and the right name behind them I feel sure could make a go of it.
Having said all that if my memory serves me right, Infratil said right from the start that they were not too interested in the passenger side of things and that they would concentrate on cargo, so perhaps I am clutching at staws.

[Andy_S]

It may well be worth investing in improving the infrastructure for this event, as it would certainly be paid back over the next 4 years, then you would have an airport which would finally realise it's potential.

How can you say for sure that any investment would "certainly" be paid back? I've heard words like "definitely", "certainly", "undoubtedly" etc used in connection with MSE too many times before. What's to say that Infratil wouldn't end up pouring money in for no gain at all?

BTW, what investment would be needed?? There's a long runway, cargo handling facilities etc already in place. I don't think the infrastructure is holding anything back.

Also, I think you need to look at a map. Of course there will be economic activity associated with the olympics site, but I can't see that Manston is particularly well placed to capitalise. There's a big container port just a little way downstream and three airports closer to Stratford than Manston, two of which already have public transport connections.

[manstonman]

Paradism said: Conversely Deedave, it will allow scheduled flights from Manston to anywhere else within the limitations of their AOC.

Same question I asked on the MK thread: Is there a possibility they could be looking to launch pax services?

[nickmanl]

I fear you may be slighlty clutching at straws manston man, although stranger things have happened in aviation!

[niknak]

How do you make a small profit in the airline business? - Start off with a very big one.

So said Sir Freddie Laker, (one of the few things he and Lord King agreed upon).

All this talk of "investing £100K each" in a new airline to operate from MSE is a tad optomistic and even naieve, even if you had 10 people foolish enough to part with that sort of cash (which you wouldn't), you'd run out of money within a month.

A service airport for the 2012 Olympics? Dream on!:rolleyes:

MSE barely has sufficiant terminal facilities for current trade, there's no Government subsidy available for developing airports for the 2012 Olympics, nor is private cash likely to be forthcoming.
If you assume that someone was daft enough to operate into MSE for 2012, how would the passengers get to the Olympic site? The existing transport infrastucture is completely inadequate, and like the airport investment, no one in their right mind is going to invest for a one off event which will show no return afterwards.

Someone mentioned Robin Hood - there's a significant difference there - Robin Hood is owned and operated by a company with far greater business skills than Intratril.
Peel saw the opportunity, bought the site, went out and got the best part of £80m of European money, put in a significant wedge of their own cash in and have come up with an airport which in the long term, will make money for the investors.
They face significant competition from other regional airports but still are making signifcant progress, MSE has, in theory a much larger passenger catchment area, but has failed to capitalise upon it's opportunities.

The only way MSE will see scheduled passenger services run on a long term basis is by attracting an existing operator who has the fleet and marketing nous to make it work and that assumes that the airport company has a marketing team in place who can go out and attract that sort of trade - hopefully recent changes will make that possible, but I do wonder.

[manstonman]

I fear you may be slighlty clutching at straws manston man, although stranger things have happened in aviation!
A Change of name and application to run scheduled services . . . but you're probably right.

[Jes]

Freddie Laker might have said it, and many others probably did, but

"industry executives like to cite former American Airlines chief Bob Crandall, who once apocryphally offered that the best way to make a small fortune in flying was to start out with a big one."

[MDIS]

Glad to see that negativity is alive and kicking on the thread.
Also pleased to see that some posters ae still able to take quotes out of context.

I assume Deedave was being sarchastic when he said,
"A bit of remortgaging, and an input of 100K each, and you have a nice little syndicate."

Jetscream said that the local syndicate was for pre operational stage only backed up by a city investment.

But you are correct Nik Nak a few hundred thousand, even a million would be gone in a very short space of time.

I would take issue with your condemnation of Infratil in terms of their business skills as they seem to be doing OK in NZ.

I would agree that it would be impossible to obtain a Government grant to develop an airport for the 2012 Olympics, but I do not undetstand your statement that the terminal facilities are barely enough for current trade. The terminal facilities are exactly the same as tey were when EUjet were operating and that coped with 350,000 pax!

I do believe that a small, well managed, non ego based, lean operation with tight financial controls and strong backing would be successful at MSE, but I guess we will just have to wait and see.

MDIS

[Jetscream 32]

I do believe that a small, well managed, non ego based, lean operation with tight financial controls and strong backing would be successful at MSE, but I guess we will just have to wait and see.

Exactly - nothing more to add other than an airport name change - who's interested? :E

[deedave]

Quote-

"I assume deedave was being sarcastic when he said - "a bit of remortgaging and an input of £100k each, and you have a nice little syndicate.""

I most certainly was not.

I would not touch Manston with a penny of my own money, but there are people who regularly visit this forum to tell us that Manston is "on the up".

Jetscream is now offering you the opportunity to back this up with hard cash.

So, in all seriousness, I ask again -

Who's in ?
.

[flightless]

so Deedave are you saying you would not use the airport even if it did get a good pax service ???

[deedave]

Flightless-

Wake up at the back!

This conversation is about investment.

[euroairport]

From the start I am not making a case for manston, I just think that in the case of problems at a major airport like the 777 at heathrow, when ATC needs to put aircraft down, you do need to have places where large jet's can land.
Pehaps it should get some assistance for just that reason.

[Andy_S]

I believe Manston is already recognised as a diversion airport. Obviously large jets can already land.

Not sure what other "assistance" is needed.

[flightless]

I do realise that Deedave but you seem so ante Manston that I thought perhaps you would not support any venture in any way

[alanlyn]

what ever you may think ,Manston will become a major airport,like it or not ,it can only be a good thing for Thanet we all need air travel,and an ideal place for cargo,a lot of people have places in Spain and need to get there quickly.

[Andy_S]

I hope this will be taken constructively rather than negatively.

Your enthusiasm for your local airport is in many ways commendable. However, I've been hearing bold predictions about how Manston will quite definitely become a major airport, "like it or not" for as long as I can remember, and the truth is that they have continually fallen well short of reality.

Yes, a lot of people do have places in Spain. But certainly not enough, in Thanet, to make Manston a "major airport". Probably not even enough for a single daily rotation.

The unfortunate truth is that Manston is not in an advantageous location. Too far from London to realistically be a London airport, yet sufficiently close that the actual London airports, with a huge range of destinations and regular & frequent flights are within reasonable travelling distance of East Kent. 70% of the catchment area in the sea. The new CTRL making high speed rail an increasingly attractive alternative for short haul European travel. The list goes on.

Certainly, there is a market to be served in East Kent. But a limited market, made even more limited once much of it has drifted off to Gatwick and Stansted. And that remaining passenger base can only be viably serviced (IMO) by a similarly modest airline operation. I think Jetscream talked of an outfit carrying 100,000 pax annually to a restricted range of destinations after several years of development, which seems sensible to me.

I do agree with you on one point. I think Manston can continue to develop, and ultimately prosper as a freight airport, and seems to be making steady progress in this respect.

[MDIS]

To clarify, Jetscream is asking for investors in an "Airline" and not in Manston Airport which I am led to believe is already owned by Infratil and is not for sale!!!!!

DD you say that you bankrolled Manston before and as I commented I assume that you mean you purchased shares in Planestation which subsequently purchased the stock of EUjet. You like a lot of other people believed in the management and the potential, however, we were wrong and lost a few quid. Jetscream would appear to know the inner workings of MSE prior to EUjet and seems to have the contacts in the industry which may be a runner subject to the business plan and therefore backing.

Be very clear, any new airline would be a customer of the airport and would pay landing fees and handling charges. It would neither own nor be owned by the airport

I for one would potentially throw my hat into the ring.

MDIS

[Jetscream 32]

All airline business plans are written to full fare costings and ops costs - ie we run a spreadsheet on the published tariff - and screw the airports like hell to make the bottom line better but never bank on it.

All of the routes/airports i would like to run - offer a thing called "New route incentives"

The Incentive
If an Airline introduces a Route that is not currently served from the Airport then an All-Inclusive Charge will be payable for each departing Terminal Passenger. This charge will replace the Passenger Facility Charge, Passenger Security Charge, Runway Charge, Air Traffic Sservice Charge and Aircraft Parking Charge.

For Manchester the incentive is for a 3 year term it is £3 in first year 4 in second and 5 in third and full tariff thereafter.

This however does not including handling which for a turbo-prop aircraft is going to be about £200 per rotation.

Keep an eye on KM...... :ok:

[deedave]

Plus, of course, ACMI, fuel, marketing, and associated taxes.

[Jetscream 32]

dd - i was only commenting on airport charges- not a/c.. in total there is about 50 line items that have a financial number attached to them to be taken into consideration in writing an airline business plan.

The prospectus for raising money in the city for an airline will typically be 100 pages of data and numbers - and they need to stack up..... - but hey i for one would not be talking about it if it didnt have legs...!!:ok:

[deedave]

Jetscream-

Indeed - I added my comment because this thread attracts a number of local novices, and I was concerned lest they go away with the belief that a turboprop operation can run on £200 per rotation.:eek:

[eddieukuk]

I was under the impression that you could run an F100 for £106 a rotation - lol lol lol .... £1 a seat and all that.
:O

[Jetscream 32]

weh hey..... booom boom as basil brush used to say....! :ok: its all good

[kellyoldsmunt]

back in your prams kids.
the point was... 106 seats at £1 each = £106.

obviously this doesnt pay for the beer and crisps let alone the insignificant cost of fuel and salary!
nice to see deedave at his negative best again :ugh:

and as for the council bending over backwards, well i think a visit to a chiropractice would do them good. latest investment wheeze is to support a load of chinees companies supposedly gagging to relocate to thanet, maybe this could be a kickstart ? :ok:

[flightless]

Deedave, I agree there are a lot of local novices on here but I dont think they are all stupid as you imply.
There are a lot of Locals that want to see the airport make good and are
trying to keep abreast of what is going on. I think any new venture may need a bit of support from the local novices.

[manstonman]

Indeed - I added my comment because this thread attracts a number of local novices, and I was concerned lest they go away with the belief that a turboprop operation can run on £200 per rotation.:eek:

When and what does a "local novice" have to do to get accepted by the Brotherhood? Can I borrow the book you read? :ok:

[Paradism]

According to Kent News, Kent County Council ("KCC") are to invite London mayoral candidate, Boris Johnson, to visit Kent International Airport. Boris is said to have previously described Heathrow as "a planning error", interesting concept!

As an aside, according to another article I read, can't remember which, KCC bought the Manston Business Park from Planestation when it went into liquidation, I knew it had been sold but was not aware it was KCC that bought it.

[eddieukuk]

Saw an article on the news about Manston airport. Did anyone see it ?

[alanlyn]

please explain more.KENT on SUNDAY had a few reports on Manston.

[euroairport]

Noticed on daisy flight in tomorow from LONDON HELIPORT
Must be Boris coming down to have a look round.

[manstonman]

please explain more.KENT on SUNDAY had a few reports on Manston.
Caught it on a radio news this morning. Paul Carter, leader of the KCC was saying that Manston can play a vital role in solving the shortage of airport capacity in the region and can easily handle up to a million pax a year.

[angels]

Folks, catflaps has got it spot on.

Whether or not he wants a busy airport in his back yard is irrelevant. Read what he wrote in his first paragraph.

Still, I wish Manston well, it has a lot of history in which my Dad played a small part.

[EIDFZ]

CATFLAPS Of course, Manston is a no-goer as an alternative. The approach route passes directly across the town of Ramsgate and thousands of people would suffer a dramatic loss of their quality of life if major expansion took place.

You may find it hard to believe, but if there were to be an expansion thousands of local peoples quality of life could drastically improve.

As for people and complaints, i heard one year 2865 complaints were recieved in reference to noise ect, 2789 were from the same four people!!

Not all the people in London live in the centre, i heard some live in the south of London, if this is true the travelling time to Manston would be greatly reduced.

And on a personal note i think Cameron will be the next PM, not may people want a Scotsman with a fake smile:yuk::yuk:

[angels]

I live in south London a few hundred yards from the A2.

It would need a really cheap fare to get me to motor down to Manston. I've nothing against the place, but it's just too far. Under 'normal' traffic conditions I can get to LCY in 10 minutes, LGW in under an hour, LHR in just over an hour and STN in 50 minutes.

[manstonman]

You quoting best case. What are "normal traffic conditions" on the M25 or through London exactly?
A2/ M2/Thanet Way is a great drive, hardly ever gets snarled up (I do it most days) and when you get to Manston you can park within 200 yards of the terminal building and not have to pay the extortionate amounts of money other airports charge for you to park your car. And who knows, before the end of the year we may even have a proper airline to fly with as well.
Re the KCC story, there's no mention of Lydd in their piece, do they know something?

[Expressflight]

Why do some posters continue to delude themselves into believing MSE has a future as a London 'overspill' airport?

Just look at the distances to Canary Wharf for example:
STN 35 miles 51min drive in average conditions
LTN 37 miles 66 min drive
SEN 38 miles 65 min drive
BIG 17 miles 47 min drive
MSE 72 miles 96 min drive

Why would anyone choose MSE as opposed to any of the above?

By the way, how many LCY diversion did MSE attract yesterday, when SEN and STN were also both below minima?

As a regional airport supporting a very limited number of routes flown by Q400 or ATR - yes. As a freight hub - also yes.
But as a London airport - not a hope.

[manstonman]

You would be lucky to get to STN and LTN in the times you've quoted, SEN's got nothing to offer anyway and in any case needs a runway extension and BIG has something in it's lease which prevents it from taking scheduled flights. You could send 'em all down to Lydd I suppose but that really is the a*se end of beyond.

[nickmanl]

manstonman, you are forgetting however regardless of how long it takes to drive to Luton or Stansted they do have a high speed rail link from both airports. With East Midlands trains for example it is only 20 minutes from Luton Airport Parkway to St Pancras, something which Manston cannot offer.

The argument regarding the reasons for Manston seems to change all the time. One minute everyone is arguing Manston has a big enough demand in its immediate catchment area to support flights, then you all change and start suggesting it its a viable alternative to London! :ugh: Surely the failings of EUJet suggests it isn't the latter?

If it really does take 96 mins from London to Manston surely we can consider East Midlands airport as a viable alternative as well, considering I have done that journey about 15 minutes quicker than that!

[Expressflight]

Manstonman

The driving times I quoted are from Google Maps, so I assume they have made some effort to ensure that they are accurate.

SEN has a great deal to offer as a London area airport. The plans in place, which include a 250m runway extension and an on-site rail station, will enable SEN to realise its potential over the next three years.
While there is no guarantee that those plans will come to fruition, they certainly stand a good chance of doing so, as the new owners are likely to have the financial resources to make it happen.

As far as Biggin Hill is concerned, are you unaware of the high volume of bizjet traffic that it now handles? It's not just scheduled flights that a London area airport needs to attract to be a success.

[toptrumps]

As manstonman says And who knows, before the end of the year we may even have a proper airline to fly with as well. ;)

[manstonman]

Expressflight:
Do you regularly drive to STN or LTN? Googlemaps are having a laugh!
I thought we were arguing about the suggestion that Manston could take some of the load off the London airports. So how many average punters do you know who travel by Bizjet? So that rules out Biggin Hill as a viable alternative what with its lease conditions and all. SEN may get a runway extension and a railway station in 3 years but then it might not (look at Lydd), Manston already has the facilities and subject to traffic increasing significantly it wouldn't be outside the realms of possibility for it to get its own station as the local railway line runs quite close by and there's no major obstructions and lots of open land to build it on. It would also be on one of the routes that connect to the high-speed CTRL line.

nickmanl:
If you go back to around post #182 on this thread you might discover that EUjet was actually doing OK, bad management brought about its downfall. In any case what is everybody's problem with Manston getting a pax service or three? I suspect there may be some out there with a vested interest in seeing it fail and become a building site? :sad:

[alanlyn]

Why dont we just suport Manston airport what other airports do is not our concern one day we will proud of Manston and what they have achieved .We have been waiting for Manston to take off .lets hope it wont be to long .To those who are ante Manston ,Life will carry on reguardless of what they say.

[MDIS]

Guys during EUjet operations even the marketing team at MSE were amazed at the percentage of pax that were being attracted by EUjet from South London. I admit this was most probably due to the very cheap seats on offer.

However, why oh why is everyone so hung up on onward travel to London? The potential pax who will use Manston will come from Kent, Sussex and Essex.

Pax who want to travel to North London will not use MSE.

Just because Gatwick, Heathrow, City and Stansted are called London Airports it does not mean that the inbound and outbound passengers only come from London.

Get a grip!! Whilst it is possible to fly into Southampton and then hop on a train to London in about 75 mins SOU does not claim to be a London Airport nor would it be regarded as such but it is handling nearly 2million pax

MDIS

PS Catflaps, I do agree Boris won't be Mayor but I think the jury is out as to whether Gordon holds on.

[flightless]

Well said MDIS. I made that point some time back, not everyone that comes to England wants to end up in London. I am sure that there are other tourist destinations other than London. As you said the idea is to take some of the load away from the big three, so it seems that an already built airport, thats ready to go, would be a good place to start. I am sure that not every passenger carried by EUjet came from Thanet.
Lets hope something comes about soon, perhaps Boris Johnsons visit will put a bit of government interest into Manston and who knows maybe a bit of cash to spend on some good PR. Still I wont hold my breath!!

[airhumberside]

It would also be on one of the routes that connect to the high-speed CTRL line.
The CTRL at Ashford is about half an hour away from Manston isn't it? So over an hour to London by train? Not really that attractive. Think the best plan is London Manston for freight and Kent International for passengers

[Expressflight]

Manstonman

I'm sorry that my quoted driving times don't suit your argument, so let's try AA Routefinder instead for the times to Canary Wharf:
STN 78min
LTN 75min
SEN 69min
MSE 108min
Perhaps the AA are "having a laugh" as well as Google.

As far as whether bizjet traffic forms an important element of London area traffic, are you aware that in 2007 Luton had 25,600 such movements and Farnborough 26,500?
I would have thought that, with MSE as well placed as you claim to cater for London bound/originating traffic, it would be a good idea to try to pick up some of that business. Or is it just passenger flights which contribute to airport revenues?

[nickmanl]

It appears this thread just goes round in circles. There is an awful lot of people feeling victimised on here! No one has anything against Manston. Some people however, just have differing opinions regarding future operations at the airport.

We can argue all day about how successful EUJet were, but at the end of the day they aren’t in operation any more. I’m sure people from London did fly with the airline. However, as mentioned before in all likelihood this was as due to the dirt cheap prices on offer. Would people from London seriously be tempted if an airline started operations whose prices were not all £1? I really don’t think they would, especially considering the low cost airline hubs located at airports which are much easier to access.

I can’t believe people here are claiming the immediate catchment area is big enough to support flights! C’mon guys, Ramsgate has a population of 40,000 people. The immediate catchment area might be around 200k max but if we go any further than the pull of Gatwick and other airports comes into play. That pop figure is no where near big enough to support an airline, therefore London has to be targeted to attract people. However the location of the airport and lack of infrastructure could be a real problem. Are people seriously suggesting people would come from abroad to visit Ramsgate? I really doubt it! In all truth the airport isn’t even well located for the rest of Kent.

I can’t believe Southampton is being compared to Manston, They are very different! Southampton is located in a much bigger conurbation with the local population totalling probably something like 500k, not to mention its importance as a dock and port.

In truth I don’t claim to know enough about the area. Perhaps a few selected routes may work in turboprop aircraft but whether it is sustainable long term is anyones guess. I do however really doubt whether a serious, long term operation will ever happen. You have to ask yourself would an airline operation work which would see the airport operator make a profit or would it have to be a deal where huge incentives are put on offer to attract an airline? Aviation has boomed massively in the last ten years and Manston was constantly overlooked. What with a possible recession on the way, perhaps Manston has missed the boat, and no matter how much blind optimism people have will change that.

[catflaps]

"In truth I don’t claim to know enough about the area. Perhaps a few selected routes may work in turboprop aircraft but whether it is sustainable long term is anyones guess."

It may suprise a few of you, but it is over ten years since the terminal freehold was sold into private ownership and nine years since the rest of the airport followed it. In all of that time there have been constant cries about how profitable and successful it could be. Yet, year on year it has cost the owners millions and generated few jobs. We were constantly told "Time will tell." I think time HAS told, and it has told us that Manston is in the wrong place. In my opinion, the window of opportunity has now closed and Infratil would be well-advised to cut their losses and propose some alternative use for the land which will be of real benefit to the local population.

P.S. I hear (from someone who's been in touch with his office) that Boris won't be coming to view it. Perhaps Carter needs to have a rethink.

P.P.S. EIDFZ posted the following: "I heard one year 2865 complaints were recieved in reference to noise ect, 2789 were from the same four people!!"
I don't know where you heard this chum but it is absolutely false. The complaints statistics are publicly available and I suggest you refer to them before posting in future. Manston generates a large number of complaints considering how little used it is.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Heads up please!

Some snide remarks are being made and reported. Two posts have as a result been deleted by us.

If any of the regulars, or anyone for that matter, cannot control snide or abusive posts OR posts that you just want to make a childish comment about - then don't! Everyone is entitled to an opinion in a debate and anyone who doesn't like it stay out of the thread. THINK before post!

Forums are for ALL to enjoy not just those who think their opinions are superior to others.

Get the point? Good, now enjoy.

AA&R Mods.