MANSTON -3

[Phileas Fogg]

Not a bad scam from somebody that bought the whole package for 350k!

[pottwiddler]

Surprised they've not 'acquired' this bit of pprune to sell off. :}

No kitchen sinks as yet but I'd like to buy the 'old' tower...I'm sure I could turn in into a pub for the future residents of 'Manston Heights'

Pub quiz Mondays nights but no Karaoke .

[Mickey Kaye]

Yep. Sell everthing off ASAP probably for peanuts then the place will never reopen.

Then get to the reason it was bought for in the first place - building

[SpringHeeledJack]

For some reason, it makes me sad to see all the bit s of the airport in the photos ready to be disseminated and dispatched to the four corners of the compass.The upturned tables from the cafeteria and bar have witnessed a few good conversations over the years looking out over the apron I'll wager.



SHJ

[LTNman]

Sometimes abandoned runways, taxiways and aprons can linger for decades, somehow I don’t think this will be the case at Manson.

[Cyrano]

Someone may want to archive Manston's Route Shop site (http://www.therouteshop.com/profiles/manston-airport/?utm_source=anna+week+2&utm_campaign=7ff4688069-anna_nl_030714&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_218fc68cd0-7ff4688069-86894941) for posterity...

[Out Of Trim]

I Really hope that the Council refuse any change of use for the land and it has to remain as an Airfield.

I may be biased, as I worked in the Old Control Tower when it was still White!

RAF Manston was my first tour as a young airman in 1979. I served three happy years here and would love it to remain the Jewel of Thanet as an important Airport for the local population and also provide leisure facilities rather then some poxy housing estate!

[Charley B]

Out of Trim
Great post..quite a few people are working hard to get this airport back and running..reading the Kent papers and watching the local news...the Save Manston group has over 8000 members now.

[LTNman]

I wonder if they are the same 8000 that were complaining about aircraft noise

[Charley B]

Definately not LTNman

[susier]

We drive past Manston very regularly. I've never flown there and generally don't intend ever to fly again, but I still love it being there. Seems to be just the odd turbo prop hanging about now, and one small passenger AC which seems to have been sitting on the tarmac for several years in the same position.


I don't think it's ever produced any significant amounts of noise, has it?


I wish it would. Would LOVE it to be designated a proper commercial airport, but then, I like planes :8

[pottwiddler]

It's one thing to sign a petition but to keep a failed business going requires people to reach into their pockets and I bet the petioners won't want to do that.
Manston only had 200,000 passengers at it peak in 2005. You cannot possibly sustain an airport business on that size of scale without people working for nothing.

[Twitcher]

The future would not be in passengers. It was carrying passengers that dragged it down in the past. It should be mostly cargo, and always should have been. Plus training, engineering, GA etc

[Andy_S]

The future would not be in passengers. It was carrying passengers that dragged it down in the past. It should be mostly cargo, and always should have been. Plus training, engineering, GA etc

I would broadly agree. Unfortunately, cargo tends to be a less profitable business than passengers, so Manston would need a heck of a lot more cargo just to break even.

[Charley B]

Riveroak are very experienced at Cargo...they are at DFW..they still want to buy Manston and turn it into a cargo hub...lots going on this week,hopefully all will be positive ..SOME pax routes may also be viable.AMS was and KLM were not happy when they were given their marching orders just as they were getting established..many Kent business pax went MSE--AMS..and then elsewhere..easy to park at airport.preferred to use airport rather than LHR as the hub and they said cheaper as well!

[Twitcher]

KLM figures were not bad, but Manston had to continually pay KLM to come here, and then there was the expense of all the extra staff needed.
You need several routes to make it worthwhile ..

[DrBeauWebber]

requires people to reach into their pockets and I bet the petioners won't want to do that.
But indeed we are already, in trying to get the airport to re-open.
You only have to realise it costs £100 to £250 extra per return journey via Heathrow, for car-rail-parking-hotel plus much of a day's work lost, to realise how much losing Manston is costing us.
Visitors/directors of my micro-SME scientific research firm had 8 flights booked via KLM & Manston when the closure "consultation" was announced, and I have already had to do two more.
So yes, we have 20,000 supporters and we are starting to back our petitions with newspaper adverts and other devices. We want Manston back as an operating airport.

[DrBeauWebber]

A study for by the Airports Commission found that a new estuary airport on the Hoo Peninsula in Kent, would cause "large scale direct habitat loss" to hundreds of thousands of migrating birds.

Airports Commission sink Boris Johnson's estuary airport plans (http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2014/07/08/airports-commission-sink-boris-johnson-s-estuary-airport-pla)

So we ask : Why not use Manston Airport in Kent ?

The fourth longest non-military airfield south of Manchester is Manston International Airport in Kent.
It is standing idle, because the owner has just shut it, we think to build housing. The airport closure was announced on the very day government support for new air-routes was announced.
It has HS1 trains, 1hour 17min from St. Pancras International in London via Ashford International, money already in place for further speed upgrades this Autumn, money just announced for a new adjacent HS1 station (the existing one at Ramsgate is all of 3 miles away). It has dual-carriage-way roads from the heart of London to the airport boundary fence via the M2 & A299 , from Ramsgate Port via the A299 and from Dover Port via A256 & A2.
We had KLM offering 30 minutes hops to Schiphol Hub, Amsterdam, then links world-wide - but they were told to leave. Manston Airport ran so simply and well that KLM only required a 30minute check in, making it a great London airport.
Save Manston Airport group has 20,000 passionate supporters trying their hardest to get Manston Airport opened again.
Please, PLEASE, why don't people use joined up thinking, we feel for the people near Heathrow Airport and Gatwick Airport, that are faced with their houses being destroyed. Here at Manston we want these planes that are fuelling the need for new runways at other London airports.

HELP US GET MANSTON AIRPORT OPEN AGAIN, PLEASE.

The Save Manston Airport group and more information can be found at :

Web: Save Manston Airport | Working to save Kent's International Airport from closure. (http://www.savemanstonairport.com)
www.facebook.com/groups/savemanstonairport

If you want to find out more about Manston Airport >

Arise to Protect - Save Manston Airport : https://www.facebook.com/download/preview/656369787776842

Manton Airport Kent has major travel advantages - v2b.pdf :
https://www.facebook.com/groups/616428761764523/645012062239526/
Also see :
Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/events/580892218698984/)

If you think it is a good idea to keep Manston Airport up and running, taking some of the load off the other London airports, then please sign these petitions :

Save Manston Airport group petition :
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/save-manston-airport
Official 10 Downing Street Petition :
Vote to keep Manston Airport open - e-petitions (http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/62738)
Others :
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/no-to-houses-at-manston-airport

[Charley B]

DrBW
Brilliant posts and most eloquently put :)
Far far better than i could ever have done!
CB

[Skipness One Echo]

So we ask : Why not use Manston Airport in Kent ?
The market doesn't want it and it's seen as miles from anywhere.
I mean when it was open, airlines weren't exactly battering on Infratil's door demanding access. The last time government policy tried to buck the market was Stansted, and that was basically gifted to Ryanair as no one else wanted it.
Think Mirabel in Montreal if you doubt it. Kent lacks the local businesses and critical mass of ease of access into London, it's not on the Tube or the DLR, whcih like it or not seem to be how people see a London Airport. Ask Gatwick!

[DrBeauWebber]

Dear SOE, you are quoting only two of the Myths that Manston suffers from :
The market doesn't want it ...
So when did you last (ever ?) see an advert for Manston Airport by the owners ?
On a London Tube train, pointing out you would be into the air quicker via Manston Airport ?
At a Travel Agent, telling you you could fly world-wide via Manston and Schiphol Hub ?
I thought not.
The only reason I knew KLM were flying from Manston was that I drive past the airport daily and saw KLM's banner on the boundary fence.

.... it's seen as miles from anywhere.
A committed Thanet District Councillor’s opinion “I have for many years looked into how and if Manston could work and found out that It could never be a commercial airport … there isn't enough catchment area this side of Maidstone to make it viable.”
The interim report from the Airports Commission into airport capacity and connectivity in the UK. (Davies Report) :
"The Commission noted that some people living in North Kent valued the role that the Airport played in supporting regional connectivity, but noted a number of significant challenges, such as relatively poor surface transport links and a large distance from significant population, which rendered any significantly expanded role for the airport implausible."

http://www.lab-tools.com/SMA/Plane%20at%20end%20of%20dual-cariageway%20+%20sign.jpg

As we can see, an uncongested dual-carriageway road runs right to Manston Airport boundary. This is the meeting-point of the A299/M2 to Central London, the A299 to Ramsgate Port and the A256/A2 to Dover Port.
And as I say, HS1 trains, 1 hour 17 min from St. Pancras International in London via Ashford International, money already in place for further speed upgrades this Autumn, money just announced for a new adjacent HS1 station (the existing one at Ramsgate is all of 3 miles away).

http://www.lab-tools.com/SMA/Manston-Google-Earth_v5_en.jpg

The crucial point is not distance, but as Sir Roger Gale stood up in Parliament, and said, time to backside on the plane. And that is where highly efficient Manston Airport (with its 30 minute KLM check-in) scores. We just have to get the message home. And as I said above, the good people of Kent are willing to pay for some of that out of their own pockets, if it gets their airport back and working.

These surface transport developments come together to favour Manston and extend its catchment area (defined as the region where Manston is the quickest airport to use) to :
a. Passengers: North beyond the 13 Category-A main-line stations in London (by road or rail) and West to the M23.
b. Perishable cargo: planes land without stacking, full loads are on their way to the M25 and the aircraft back in the air within 80 minutes. At other airports the cargoes are frequently still sitting waiting, uncooled, degrading.

This is some of our evidence, timings obtained directly from the web; these are 3D maps of Kent, with height of bars being populations, and colour being time to backside on plane :
http://www.lab-tools.com/SMA/Kent_Lon_MSE_vs_LHR-E_by_Car_3D_ccb.png
http://www.lab-tools.com/SMA/Kent_Lon_MSE_vs_LHR-E_by_Car_3D_ccb.png

So, Yes, SOE, I agree with you, we have to get these messages home !
cheers,
Beau

[pottwiddler]

In this day an age, smaller airports need to have many strings to their bow, Cargo, passengers, business handlers, maintenance and General Aviation. the wider the business base the more chance you have of survival. Pax or cargo alone will not work.

Location is everything too.

If only Manston was more western in it's location it would naturally attract more customers from the South East london Area, but airlines are happy making good profits out of LGW/LHR and SEN than risky bets on Manston.

[onyxcrowle]

A study for by the Airports Commission found that a new estuary airport on the Hoo Peninsula in Kent, would cause "large scale direct habitat loss" to hundreds of thousands of migrating birds.

Airports Commission sink Boris Johnson's estuary airport plans (http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2014/07/08/airports-commission-sink-boris-johnson-s-estuary-airport-pla)

So we ask : Why not use Manston Airport in Kent ?

The fourth longest non-military airfield south of Manchester is Manston International Airport in Kent.
It is standing idle, because the owner has just shut it, we think to build housing. The airport closure was announced on the very day government support for new air-routes was announced.
It has HS1 trains, 1hour 17min from St. Pancras International in London via Ashford International, money already in place for further speed upgrades this Autumn, money just announced for a new adjacent HS1 station (the existing one at Ramsgate is all of 3 miles away). It has dual-carriage-way roads from the heart of London to the airport boundary fence via the M2 & A299 , from Ramsgate Port via the A299 and from Dover Port via A256 & A2.
We had KLM offering 30 minutes hops to Schiphol Hub, Amsterdam, then links world-wide - but they were told to leave. Manston Airport ran so simply and well that KLM only required a 30minute check in, making it a great London airport.
Save Manston Airport group has 20,000 passionate supporters trying their hardest to get Manston Airport opened again.
Please, PLEASE, why don't people use joined up thinking, we feel for the people near Heathrow Airport and Gatwick Airport, that are faced with their houses being destroyed. Here at Manston we want these planes that are fuelling the need for new runways at other London airports.

HELP US GET MANSTON AIRPORT OPEN AGAIN, PLEASE.

The Save Manston Airport group and more information can be found at :

Web: Save Manston Airport | Working to save Kent's International Airport from closure. (http://www.savemanstonairport.com)
www.facebook.com/groups/savemanstonairport

If you want to find out more about Manston Airport >

Arise to Protect - Save Manston Airport : https://www.facebook.com/download/preview/656369787776842

Manton Airport Kent has major travel advantages - v2b.pdf :
https://www.facebook.com/groups/616428761764523/645012062239526/
Also see :
Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/events/580892218698984/)

If you think it is a good idea to keep Manston Airport up and running, taking some of the load off the other London airports, then please sign these petitions :

Save Manston Airport group petition :
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/save-manston-airport
Official 10 Downing Street Petition :
Vote to keep Manston Airport open - e-petitions (http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/62738)
Others :
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/no-to-houses-at-manston-airport

Im commenting so I can find this post later abd sign all your petitions.
One question I have which will no doubt bring being shot royally down in flames from those who seem to often jump on any idea that doesn't involve Heathrow or Manchester.
But.....
This new.Virgin Galactic operation.
They already have a spaceport in the US do the not?.
I recall reading they wanted one in the UK. But at the time I think for some reason ( n imsure someone can tell me.why) was being bandied about as being only suitable place.
So what about Manston?.
I confess I know little about galactic.
But I . assume it has the range to go intp orbit from the US and im theory land here im the UK.
Which for a tiny few would. Give a.double whammy of space flight and a.vwry quick trip to the UK.
And to my Knowledge off the top of my head Only three airports can take it.

Campbelltown macrahanish?
Elvington(former shuttle emergency strip)
And Manston.
So why not market it is Britain's spaceport.
Right on the coast
Nice long runway.
Plenty of land to build a.matching spaceport

[DrBeauWebber]

onyxcrowle :
Well we are told that Manston was listed as an emergency runway for the US Space Shuttle, so perhaps it would work. The runway is 2.75 km long, and is facing nearly due East, which is good for a space-port.

[DrBeauWebber]

EGHQ :
Well there used to be a shorter angled runway that could be re-instated, and one might be able to squeeze a secong parallel runway on the site.
But I don't think even Manston's most ardent supporter would suggest it as a Heathrow replacement, just take the pressure off for the calls for new runway building at Heathrow or Gatwick, or at the worst, just provide runway capacity for the 10/20 years it will take those runways to be built.

[Andy_S]

Brilliant posts and most eloquently put :)

They are indeed eloquent words; unfortunately, an airport can’t run on eloquent words…..

There is no doubt at all that local businesses found passenger services out of Manston useful. Unfortunately, there were never enough of them to make the airport commercially viable. Various airlines gave it a go, without success. The jury was still out on KLM; the MSE-AMS flights never achieved more than an average 50% loading, but let’s be generous and assume that KLM would have carried on if MSE had remained open. That’s two rotations per day. Even if that were viable for KLM, it’s nowhere near viable for the airport.

As for the rest, all the arguments about Manston’s runway length, transport links and lack of capacity at the major London airports have been doing the rounds for as long as I can remember. While I generally agree with claims made (although at risk of being picky, I would question the “4th longest runway” statement) the reality is that despite these apparent advantages, passenger airlines have been almost completely indifferent to Manston. That should tell you something….

[Charley B]

MSE was used many times as a bad weather diversion airport for aircraft from LGW and LHR...BA did most of their A380 training there..it was never given a fair chance to work..different owners things may well have been different!

[Andy_S]

..it was never given a fair chance to work..

Unfortunately, Manston Airport is (or was) a business, and no one owes it a living. It's not realistic to expect it's owners to absorb it's losses indefinitely.

[Cymmon]

Still not as long as Bruntingthorpe!

[DrBeauWebber]

Sorry for the slow replies, I had to wait for those long postings to get approval ….
pottwiddler :
In this day an age, smaller airports need to have many strings to their bow, Cargo, passengers, business handlers, maintenance and General Aviation. the wider the business base the more chance you have of survival. Pax or cargo alone will not work.*

Full agreement with you !
RiverOak, who are interested in buyimg/running Manston Airport had a finger in the pie of getting Fort Worth Alliance Airport (AFW) up and running as a cargo / mail package hub.
"Fort Worth Alliance Airport (AFW) is the world's first 100% industrial airport designed for cargo and corporate aviation. AFW features a vast array of flight services, including air cargo, corporate and military aviation, and is the cornerstone for the nation's fastest-growing industrial complex, the Alliance Global Logistics Hub."
They say they intend to have passenger opperations as well, at Manston.
Save Manston Airport and other local support groups are 100% behind RiverOak and its attempts to buy Manston Airport - sofar rejected by the current owner, even though they meet the asking price.

[DrBeauWebber]

Andy_S :
I would question the “4th longest runway” statement
Actually I said :
The fourth longest non-military airfield south of Manchester

My data was from Wikipedia :
List of airports in the United Kingdom and the British Crown Dependencies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airports_in_the_United_Kingdom_and_the_British_Crown _Dependencies#Airports_in_England)
And the Manston page, Manston Airport - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manston_Airport)
which (in agreement with other data) gives the length at
2,748 m 9,016 ft Asphalt/Concrete

Sort by decreasing length, delete airports listed as military, and keep those south of Manchester and I believe I am correct (unless you know otherwise) :
http://www.Lab-Tools.com/SMA/Airports_km.png

[DrBeauWebber]

Andy_S :
Manston Airport is (or was) a business, and no one owes it a living. It's not realistic to expect it's owners to absorb it's losses indefinitely.

Ann Gloag and Manston Skyport Ltd took over the running of the airport on 29 November 2013,
She promised to give the venture a full 2 years.
On 19 March 2014, it was announced that a 45-day consultation period into the closure of the airport had begun.
So the closure was actually announced 5 months 2 weeks 2 days after its new owner started running the airport. Was that a fair trial ?

Have recent owners have spent anything on advertising Manston Airport ? Have you ever seen an advert for Manston Airport ? On a London Tube ? In a travel agency ?
This is high-lited by a visit to the nearly city of Maidtone (40 miles from Manston), by the leader of the "Save Manston Airport" group
- the commonest response by the good people of Maidstone : "What Manston Airport ?".
This is no surprise to me - the only reason I knew that KLM had started flights to Schiphol Hub in Amsterdam, was I was driving past the airport perimeter daily, and there was a KLM banner on the fence saying flights were about to start ! I first flew in the second week, I last flew on the last day, and most flights were pretty full.

Why did the current owner announce the closure "consultation" on the very day that government support was announced for new air routes from regional airports ? Southend have already benefitted !

USA airfield operators RiverOak offered the full asking price of £7million, had it turned down, and still state : "RiverOak has developed a long term plan to own and manage Manston as an airport….". They were influential in setting up Alliance Fort Worth Airport in Texas a few years ago as a freight hub, and want to do the same for Manston : www.alliancetexas.com/Portals/0/PDF/Fort_Worth_Alliance_Airport.pdf

[Red Four]

Apropos post #1474:
Manston airport: TG Aviation lose High Court case against Kent Facilities Limited owned by Ann Gloag in a bid to return to the site (http://www.kentonline.co.uk/kent-business/county-news/flight-school-loses-manston-court-19970/)

[DrBeauWebber]

No, they lost the temporary injunction (other side claimed it would cost them £1m), full case returns to high court "later this year".

[Andy_S]

Actually I said "The fourth longest non-military airfield south of Manchester."

Indeed, which is exactly how I interpreted it. So you have:

Heathrow (x2)
Gatwick
Stansted
East Midlands

Which would make Manston #6. I must admit I was unaware that Birmingham was longer; if true that would make Manston #7. But it's a silly argument. No one disputes that Manston has a long runway, capable of accommodating the largest aircraft, so lets not distracted by irrelevant details.

I agree with your comment "was that a fair trial" as regards Ann Gloag's takeover. As I've said before, probably no-one but Ann Gloag herself really knows if she ever had any genuine commitment to Manston as an airport, but if she did you would have thought she would have given it longer than 5 months. My earlier remark related not just to her, but to previous owners, none of whom were able to make Manston profitable. How many different owners does Manston need before the question needs to be asked as to whether the problem isn't with the ownership but the airport itself?

You ask if I've ever seen an advert for Manston on a tube train. No, but why would the airport advertise in such a manner? Manston is not a London airport, so why target a London market?

I've never heard of this government 'support' for new air routes from regional airports, but I'm pretty sure that any such support was aspirational rather than financial. Airlines will fly to and from where it suits them - i.e. where there's money to be made - rather than to and from where it suits the government.

It may be that Manston can be turned round, but to do so will require an owner with deep pockets and a great deal of patience. Infratil, who have experience of operating airports, stuck it out for 8 years but eventually gave up.

[cornishsimon]

With NQY coming in at the reduced 2.74km !


cs

[DrBeauWebber]

Andy_S :
My apologies, you are of course right, I meant to say south of Birmingham - i.e. I am considering London civilian airports only.

Manston is not a London airport, so why target a London market?

But you clearly have not looked at my earlier 3D maps of Kent, which make it clear that from any of the 12 Category A London main-line stations, by road or by rail, now you are in the air quicker via Manston than via Heathrow. So of course Manston should be considered a London airport. This is the key point that the changes in road and rail links have made - There is no point looking back 10, 20 years in history. No Manston is not now just a Kentish airport, it is a ****-hot London airport.
The last two owners made no attempt to exploit these changes as they happened.

[ANGRYBEARD]

I've read many of the post consultation threads with 'interest', there seems to be the usual two camps, the 'nothings' or 'everythings'

So after several aborted posts, now I'll throw my hat in;

I used to work at Manston, a few years ago, during flybe times, having had a keen interest all my life, even doing work experience with the R.A.F. It was an amazing place, always so close to the promised land, a great bunch of people worked there, some I'm still pleased to call friends, and I'm gutted to of watched them lose there jobs.

Manston never was, or will be a Heathrow replacement, or the answer to the south east air travel question, or even a stop gap. What it could be, is a well run, reasonable profitable business, maybe some airlines, but mainly freight, training and overhaul.

The problem with Infratil was a complete lack of investment and no foresight. They bought the place for a quick profit before the market went into downturn and spent almost nothing other than covering losses. I remember plans to double cargo ramp capacity for minimal amounts rejected, with cargo aircraft having to wait on the taxiway whilst others were unloaded, to have two aircraft being seen to at once required all the equipment transferred right across the airfield to an apron not set up for the work. The equipment was knackered then, always breaking down, the amount of time a 747 was held up because the loader broke, old equipment caught fire whilst trying to impress possible customers, any stuff that HAD to be replaced was wrongly ordered and was out of action for months whilst airport staff tried to adapt it.

Nothing was permanent, even the terminal repaint was laughed at by the decorators as the paint work was the cheapest and barely fit for purpose. Any substantial new work was funded through other means, whether the wind farm, or insurance pay out's, etc.

Despite huge cost of management being brought from Prestwick, or the board flown from NZ, no decisions ever seemed to be made, and it always seemed to be a case or putting on this public image to try and get extra funding(9 million wanted for a new station only marginally quicker than from Ramsgate, well away from helping local business' profit) Infratil never intended to make it work and probably spent more in covering losses than what basic investment would have cost waiting for a sale.

From what I have heard, the present owner had no intention of making it work either, this is all word of mouth, but I've heard of golden handshakes arranged months in advance of consultation, a lack of desire to even paper over the cracks, stats showing profitability in cargo ignored, even facilities staff being rebuked for using long life lightbulbs. I must admit though, as soon as it was bought I saw asset stripping all over it.

Riveroak didn't look any different in my book, but seem to have some experience and plans, I've been told they have agreed all equipment needs replacing anyway, so auction not an issue, maybe they'll actually invest a little, with fit for purpose buildings built for new business' to base themselves in, an actual strategy and maybe that much needed ramp space.

Basically Manston needs a plan, stop trying to get the locals on side by talk of airlines, downplaying cargo for positivity points, if the council are going to go through the process of cpo, then they need a real plan in place and money to back it guaranteed.

I would prefer it all left alone, than years of uncertainty and another false dawn bringing it down, in the mean time i wish Avman, TG, polar and other firms based at the airport the best of luck and fingers crossed for their future.

[BISH-BASH-BOSH]

You boys really dont get it do you, Manston is finished as an airport, you need to look at the much wider picture. Scottish company, scottish independance, very large housing project pooring millions into the scottish economy !!!!!

[Planespeaking]

Or building the Manston housing development for all the Scots heading south after a yes vote for independence!!

[carlogie]

The South of England has only limited appeal; Norway and Germany much more.

On the other hand, the direction is likely to be the other way, once we regain our independence and can set our own aviation policy.

[Planespeaking]

Welcome Carlogie. Your first post I see. Whether Manston is given the kiss of life or not, I wish you and Scotland well. I would like you to stay with us, but if you cast off then may you sail in calm waters. Perhaps Manston could rekindle flights to Edinburgh and Glasgow. Whatever good luck.

[BISH-BASH-BOSH]

From Wiki,

Brian Souter (Ann Gloags brother) is a major financial supporter of the Scottish National Party (SNP). In March 2007, he donated £500,000, citing an imbalance of funding within Scottish politics.[24] He stated that it was his intention to redress an imbalance in funding: "as long as I can remember, the case for the union has been hugely financed by cash from London, while the case for independence has lacked resources. I hope my donation will help redress this imbalance".[25] Following the donation, SNP leader Alex Salmond was criticised for "pandering to homophobia" by accepting the donation[25] - particularly as the party had just opposed the right for gay couples to be given equal treatment by Catholic adoption agencies and had snubbed a gay rights debate in January 2007.[25] Salmond thanked Souter for his support, calling him "one of the outstanding entrepreneurs of his generation".[25] One month later, in April 2007, the SNP's commitment (made at the party's 2006 conference) to re-regulate the bus network was dropped from the 2007 manifesto, although the SNP denied any direct link.[26]

In February 2011 Souter again pledged financial support for the SNP, promising to match every pound they raised with a donation of up to £500,000. Announcing his support he said Salmond and the SNP deserved a second term in office.[27][28] The SNP won a resounding victory in the election with Salmond being returned unopposed as First Ministe

[Twitcher]

Taiwanese delegation to engage in Manston Airport talks - News - Kent News (http://www.kentnews.co.uk/news/taiwanese_delegation_to_engage_in_manston_airport_talks_1_36 83046)


A Taiwanese delegation is to visit Manston Airport this week, with a view to a possible takeover.

Members of the delegation will meet managers of the airport, which closed in May with the loss of 150 jobs.

They will also meet with the chief executive of the Thanet and East Kent Chamber of Commerce, David Foley.

It is the latest twist in the bid to find a buyer for the stricken site after it was taken over last October by businesswoman Ann Gloag.

She has so far refused to sell up - even to US investment firm RiverOak which placed a bid matching the £7m asking price hours before it was due to close.

The Taipei Representative Office in the UK will be represented by director of economic division Terry Lee, accompanied by Angela Kuo and Liang-l Yang.

The office says it is coming to seek business opportunities, having informed its headquarters in Taiwan about Manston Airport’s potential.

They have been invited by Liberal Democrat George Cunningham, who will be standing for North Thanet in the 2015 General Election.

Taiwan is currently in the process of merging the investment activities of its four main public pension funds, combining assets worth US$100 billion into what may become one of the largest sovereign wealth funds in the world.

George Cunningham said: “This visit shows considerable continuing international interest in Manston Airport. The opportunity is being created for the owner to engage with a much wider spectrum of potential investors than has been the case until now.”

Thanet District Council continues to investigate the possibility of serving a compulsory purchase order on the site.

[wallp]

Given the number of SouthEast airports, is there sufficient demand to make Manston a viable proposition as a commercial airport?

[pottwiddler]

Till the first house is sold, many people will refuse to believe that the airport is closed.

Which reminds me.

Monty Python - Dead Parrot - YouTube

[Out Of Trim]

I propose Manston, be nominated as a Spaceport and UK Space Centre. Keeping the Runway available for TG Aviation. Also keep the airfield available for Search and Rescue Helicopters.

Provide facilities fot the UK satellite building companies. Ie.Test and Launch facilities and an educational visitor centre for public and schools to encourage interest and career opportunities and promote new space technology industry in the UK.

[SWBKCB]

A spaceport under some of the busiest airspace in Europe - what could possibly go wrong?

[Planespeaking]

Thunderbirds are go ............ ooooh! :=

[IB4138]

Riveroak Investments, who offerred Madam Gloag her full asking price more than once, have agreed to underwrite 100% of the costs of Thanet Council's proposed CPO on the airport.

The fat lady has not been booked to sing as yet.

[wetlanding]

Are Avman still workg in there hanger or have they moved to Lydd yet, does anyone know what has happened to JOTA aviations RJ85 which was going to be delivered late May or early June 2014 to start service from Southend in late July many thanks for any information.

[Richard Taylor]

'A spaceport under some of the busiest airspace in Europe - what could possibly go wrong? '

'Thunderbirds are go ............ ooooh! '

Tracy Island...Boris Island... F A B ! ;)

[jigger01]

'A spaceport under some of the busiest airspace in Europe - what could possibly go wrong? '

'Thunderbirds are go ............ ooooh! '

Tracy Island...Boris Island... F A B ! ;)


Ahh yes, the sarcasm of those gloating...do you actually work in
Aviation? Do you?...coz if you do you should hang your head, as
ANY aviation space that turns to dust means less jobs for all
involved..or,are you too thick to realize that?
Or perhaps as your moniker tags you as 'Aberdeen' you have more
involvement than you are letting on...
Are you one of (the many) short-sighted 'developers' out to make a
quick buck and piss off back to your tax haven (where you may crawl
back under your rock)..where much excrement may be found..

[ATNotts]

jigger01

Until reading this post I had assumed that the age shown in your profile (3) was an unfortunate typo - now I'm not so sure.

In a capitalist economy, such as the UK's is, a business that makes no money for it's owners / shareholders is often closed down, and the site redeveloped - and as an unfortunate consequence people lose their jobs.

Many airports in the UK are losing money, some with threads on PPRuNe, are verging on dead ducks, even though local supporters often can't see it. UK airports are not akin to the NHS (a sacred cow that anyone who suggests radical change is lambasted) they are businesses that stand or fall on their financial (not their social) viability.

[Richard Taylor]

Jigger

It was a crafty gag in response to a reference to Thunderbirds by another poster, incorporating the words:

Boris
Tracy
Island
FAB

Hope that clarifies for you.

Off your not-very-high horse, please.

[Expressflight]

wetlanding

I believe that one of the hurdles delaying the certification of the aircraft (a BAe146-200 by the way) has now been removed so perhaps it won't be too long now.

[bricquebec]

Should this thread not be moved now to "Aviation History and Nostalgia"?

[pottwiddler]

Should this thread not be moved now to "Aviation History and Nostalgia"?
:D
You're so cruel, but so is business if the product does not fit the market.:ouch:

[IB4138]

There are some of us here, who are still fighting to remove Manston from the clutches of Madam Gloag and restore it as an airport.

Whilst this fight goes on, "clever" posts are totally unhelpful, unless, like Gloag you wish to see a garden city built on the site.

I like, ATNotts, now wonder about some persons posting fiction and if they have hidden agendas, IE Estate Agents or likely to profit from the activities of Gloag, her associates and/or companies, with their development scheme.

[Andy_S]

There are some of us here, who are still fighting to remove Manston from the clutches of Madam Gloag and restore it as an airport.

Then I hope you have a few hundreds of millions of pounds to spare.....

BBC News - Manston Airport would need 'hundreds of millions' to succeed (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-28539651)

[IB4138]

You clearly are not well informed or choose not to be, just quoting that article above. Read the full report and not just the bit the BBC have chosen for their story.

Try this for starters and do some more research into what is going on.:

American firm RiverOak offers to underwrite Manston airport CPO | Thanet Gazette (http://www.thanetgazette.co.uk/American-firm-RiverOak-offers-underwrite-Manston/story-21938965-detail/story.html)

[Andy_S]

You clearly are not well informed or choose not to be, just quoting that article above.

I'm as well informed as most on the subject of Manston; more realistic as well.

......do some more research into what is going on.

And maybe you should do the same. Start with RiverOak Investment Corp. You do realise what sort of company they are, don't you?

[IB4138]

You mean starting with the same thing that Gloag is doing today?

Manston airport: More than 700 lots auctioned off today and tomorrow by Peaker Pattinson Auctioneers from fire engines to flat-screen TVs (http://www.kentonline.co.uk/kent-business/county-news/manston-equipment-goes-under-the-21015/)

This would indicate just the opposite:

http://www.kentonline.co.uk/thanet/news/companys-new-bid-to-take-20858/

[SWBKCB]

This all seems very odd -

However, it says that as the new owner, it would focus on developing the cargo side of the airport's business but does not rule out possible passenger services in the future.

Like what Cargo business? and then in the next breath:

"We have strong grounds to believe that one of those competitors will consider Manston as a possible base for operations south of the Thames commencing in the summer of 2016."

Through the current terminal? Summer 2016 isn't that far away.

[STN Ramp Rat]

I believe the 146 departed Manston today for Southend, was that the last flyable aircraft left on the site?

[Charley B]

Yes it was. well .I thought it was.but see Twitcher's post below
There is one large aircraft left outside which will never fly again...:((

[Twitcher]

There remains an airworthy aircraft but permission to fly out was denied! anyway..

GOVERNMENT Minister without portfolio and Conservative Party chairman Grant Shapps will meet campaigners at Manston airport tomorrow.

The minister, who has responsibility for aviation, will be at the main building at 1.30pm.

It is thought the minister is hoping to see what level of support there is to keep the airport open.

On Facebook Save Manston Airport member Beau Webber urged supporters to turn out, adding: "We have been working for months to get the government to take notice, this is our chance to show what we think about Manston Airport."



Read more: Government minister visit to Manston airport | Thanet Gazette (http://www.thanetgazette.co.uk/Government-minister-visit-Manston-airport/story-22940106-detail/story.html#ixzz3DbfoDzq9)

[Charley B]

Excellent:)

[ericlday]

It is not the number of supporters that makes a route successful it is the number of people who actually purchase tickets.

[lotus1]

I hope everything works out well but I see the local council and councillors are having wet bums over a compulsory purchase I thought they suppose to welcome jobs for the area not just new houses in a area where unemployment is high

[Twitcher]

MINISTER without portfolio and Conservative Party chairman Grant Shapps has said the government is supporting the campaign to reopen Manston airport.

More than 100 campaigners fighting to save the airport turned out today (Thursday) to hear the cabinet minister tell them: “we back you- we are on your side.”

The MP for Welwyn Hatfield said central government understands that the airport is an important part of the local economy and: “wanted to see what is best for your community.”

Mr Shapps said: “We are reaching a critical moment as I understand things, this has obviously been an issue that has been running for a long time.

“The two local excellent MPs, Roger Gale and Laura Sandys, have been talking about this for a long time, they have talked to me about it before, they have also raised it with the Prime Minister.

“I just thought I was about time to turn those fine words into some action, come here and say to the local council, we are also supportive of your vision for your local area as central government.

“I know this area reasonably well, I know the two nearest towns Ramsgate and Margate and I know these are places that welcome jobs and need the prosperity.

“To throw away the single greatest unique asset the area has without properly thinking that through would be wrong.

“I know the council is thinking it through and I just want to say to them right here, the government is supporting you.”

Mr Shapps, who is a qualified pilot, also revealed he has used Manston in the past.

He appeared at the airport alongside Labour leader of Thanet council Iris Johnston and Conservative parliamentary candidate for Thanet South Craig Mackinlay.

US-based firm RiverOak Investment met with Thanet council officials today as discussions over the viability of a Compulsory Purchase Order (CPO) of the airport continue.

Mr Shapps said the government has put measures in place to speed up the compulsory purchase process for local authorities.

Read more: VIDEO: Government minister gives backing to Manston airport | Thanet Gazette (http://www.thanetgazette.co.uk/Government-minister-gives-backing-Manston-airport/story-22946946-detail/story.html)

[Mickey Kaye]

Fingers crossed

[Out Of Trim]

Please give Manston back to the RAF and still allow Commercial use, like the old days! SAR Helicopters to come back. Stil a viable airfield for UAS and AEF flying and plenty of airlines could use it for Flying Training on new types etc

[Fairdealfrank]

Please give Manston back to the RAF and still allow Commercial use, like the old days!
Like NHT? Could make sense, MSE is in quite a strategic location from a military point of view.

[Red Four]

...MSE is in quite a strategic location from a military point of view.

That must be why the RAF had no possible further flying need for it in the 1990's and sold it off.

[NorthSouth]

Strategic in 1940. Not in 2014

[Twitcher]

BREAKING NEWS: Manston airport SOLD | Thanet Gazette (http://www.thanetgazette.co.uk/BREAKING-NEWS-Manston-airport-SOLD/story-22966666-detail/story.html)

Manston airport has been sold to the firm behind the Discovery Park at Richborough it has just been announced - apparently ending hopes that it will reopen as an airport.

Trevor Cartner and Chris Musgrave have bought a majority interest in the 800-acre site from owner Ann Gloag.

The partnership has experience of large-scale regeneration projects and is part of the Discovery Park consortium at the former Pfizer facility in Sandwich.

The new owners envisage a £1 billion redevelopment of the 800-acre site, over a 20-years into a mixed-use scheme which they claim will help to create more than 4,000 jobs.

Trevor Cartner and Chris Musgrave recently met with the site’s owner, Ann Gloag, and reached agreement to acquire a majority interest.

Their plans include space for a wide range of businesses, with a focus on attracting companies interested in advanced manufacturing, as well as the provision of housing, shops, schools and community facilities.

Mr Musgrave commented: “Whilst it is too early to be specific about our plans, we will be looking to comprehensively redevelop the whole site to create a mixed-use community. This is in light of the fact that the airport has closed, the equipment has been sold and it will not reopen. We are aware that there were a number of job losses when the airport closed and a far greater number will replace these, and that the benefits will reach the whole of east Kent. We will assemble a first class team to produce and deliver high quality plans for the site.”

The plans are likely to include production and warehousing space in the development, which will meet a current shortage of space in Thanet for companies to grow and expand. It will also complement the Discovery Park scheme at Sandwich, where occupancy is already over 50% after only two years and recent demand for large production/warehousing requirements has been turned away due to lack of suitable accommodation.

Mr Cartner and Mr Musgrave are the team behind regeneration projects at Wynyard Park in the north-east of England, built on a site vacated by Samsung, and Discovery Park, where a new 220-acre science and technology park is being built on the site of Pfizer’s former headquarters.

[Barling Magna]

Oh dear. It seems a great shame that part of the site can't continue as a general aviation airfield......

[LTNman]

Bought for a £1, sack the staff, auction of everything in sight as quick as possible and then sell it on for ?????


Easy money comes to mind. I wonder what her profit was? I also wonder what the previous owners feel who could have done the same and made a fat profit but sold it on as a working airport.

[IB4138]

The fat lady has not sung yet.

Madam Gloag looks to have made a panic sale. Perhaps she can't take the heat after all....or there always was a hidden agenda.

Maybe Inspector Knacker needs to take a hard look at what has transpired here.

Something stinks.

[Charley B]

IB 4138

Sure does ...previous owners were all tied up with her Company apparently...she NEVER had any intention of making a go of it despite what she said to the press at the time of buying it..always a hidden agenda :(

[Buster the Bear]

Asset strip then move it on.

[SWBKCB]

....which doesn't automatically make it a case for Inspector Knacker, you may not like it but does it make it illegal?

[Barling Magna]

Does that make it illegal? Nope; that's just capitalism at work or, as Tory PM Ted Heath dubbed it, "the unacceptable face of capitalism".........

[Twitcher]

Thanet Eye | Keeping an eye out, so you don't have to?. (http://thaneteye.wordpress.com/)

It appears that the future under the new owners may not be so bright after all :ugh:

[Barling Magna]

What a story! As the article ends so eloquently a la Dave Allen, "May your God go with you". Only some supreme being seems able to save us from the unacceptable face of capitalism......

[compton3bravo]

That is excellent investigative journalism. I hope the person or persons involved get an award for it. As somebody has already said not everything is not always as it seems.
As Ted Heath said about Tony Rowland (re-LONRO) in the 1970s - the unacceptable face of capitalism - and sure enough it is still alive and kicking!

[CelticRambler]

Thanet Eye | Keeping an eye out, so you don't have to?. (http://thaneteye.wordpress.com/)

It appears that the future under the new owners may not be so bright after all :ugh:

On the contrary - it could be argued that the "fair market value" of this failed development site is in or around 1p - in line with the value of similar assets managed by the current owners - rather than the £1 AG paid for it. I reckon even TDC could find that much down the back of a sofa ... especially if there are political worms in that there can that's just been opened! :E

[NorthSouth]

A truly great piece of research. But surely the lesson is that it's not the "face" of capitalism at all, it's the guts. The way it appears on the surface is irrelevant, it's the nitty gritty of the massively complex network of shell companies, hollow ownerships, derivatives, debt transfers, subterfuges and conspiracies that is the reality of how it works. And this is increasingly the day to day reality of how companies operate in so many sectors of the UK economy.

The evidence that Gloag is still involved is particularly damning, and deeply insulting to people in Kent, especially in the Council, who are trying to do an honest job of fostering economic prosperity and creating jobs. Why do so many people remain so credulous in the face of cynical egotists like these?

I don't know who Thanet Eye is but I know a lot of projects that could do with his/her forensic skills.

NS

[Fairdealfrank]

A truly great piece of research. But surely the lesson is that it's not the "face" of capitalism at all, it's the guts. The way it appears on the surface is irrelevant, it's the nitty gritty of the massively complex network of shell companies, hollow ownerships, derivatives, debt transfers, subterfuges and conspiracies that is the reality of how it works. And this is increasingly the day to day reality of how companies operate in so many sectors of the UK economy.

The evidence that Gloag is still involved is particularly damning, and deeply insulting to people in Kent, especially in the Council, who are trying to do an honest job of fostering economic prosperity and creating jobs. Why do so many people remain so credulous in the face of cynical egotists like these?The unacceptable face of crony capitalism?


I don't know who Thanet Eye is but I know a lot of projects that could do with his/her forensic skills.
Indeed, we could do with someone of with these skills here in Middlesex.

[Charley B]

It shows a disgraceful state of affairs that has been allowed to happen...brilliant investigatory skills :)....shows how much skullduggery has been involved there and for so long!!

[lotus1]

I see the local press has picked up story could some one be ready to sell again in the morning?

[Twitcher]

The Truth is Out There ?.. if you choose to see it. On borrowing big and the thin line between optimism and denial | Thanet Eye (http://thaneteye.wordpress.com/2014/10/17/the-truth-is-out-there-if-you-choose-to-see-it-on-borrowing-big-and-the-thin-line-between-optimism-and-denial/)

More investigation in to the finances


BBC News - Manston Airport protest held as Thanet talks continue (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-29658131)

[pottwiddler]

It's all very well campaigning to reopen the airport but there three issues.
There's no equipment. It's all been sold off.
What about people? Who is going to staff the airport? ATCOs would have found alternative work by now or at least being interviewed for positions elsewhere. Similarly Engineers and ground handling staff who can move will have by now.
As for investors? Who would invest in what is already a failed business? It didn't attract business when it was open, who is going to go there when it rises from the flames. Like Blackpool, once an airport closes it's doors for good or to commercial traffic, aviation business will not bases their business plans on a facility with poor prospects..

[Twitcher]

Have you read the full story with American investors fully prepared to fund the CPO by the council, buy everything to get it back up and running and they also have a list of cargo airlines to return and others to start new services.

[pottwiddler]

It's going to take a LOT of money to do that and it's not going to happen overnight. The investors such as Infratil got their hands burnt why would anyone else buy into it. It's a VERY risky bet.
I'm all in favour of Manston being an altenrative to LHR and it has certain advantages, such as land, willing population, connections and airspace but that sort of money is scarce these days. (Eurozone slowdown)

[NorthSouth]

It's all very well campaigning to reopen the airport but there three issuesYou forgot the fourth one, which is that the delightful human being that ostensibly "sold" the airport in fact still has a financial interest in it, as the wonderful Thanet Eye has demonstrated. This must surely guarantee that no return to aviation is possible.
NS

[N707ZS]

Teesside businessman Chris Musgrave (Wynard Estates) buys Manston Airport (kent) off Stagecoach owners.
Wonder if he's seen Peels plans for DTV and thought it was a cheap way to build on an airport site.
Teesside entrepreneur Chris Musgrave spearheading £1 billion scheme in Kent - Gazette Live.

This was posted on the DTVA thread by one of our thread idiots there should be a link which doesn't copy for some reason.

[SWBKCB]

also have a list of cargo airlines to return and others to start new services

Such as? Manston had Cargolux, Saudi, etc and still struggled

Unless they've captured the likes of FedEx, UPS, DHL (in which case the level of investment needed moves to a whole new level) who's around that will make a sustainable business?

[Twitcher]

The lack of passenger services will make costs less for starters. Fewer employees required. Businesses other than Cargo and passenger operations are also encouraged by the would be owner.

[SWBKCB]

Which doesn't answer the question - where's the cargo market to be tempted back/expanded? Which airports make money purely on cargo without major investment to create/support hubs for the big boys?

[IB4138]

SWBKCB

I suggest you direct your question to Riveroak Investments, as no one here and only they can answer your question.

[vulcanised]

Sadly, I think there are even more dark dealings to be revealed and the outcome will not be a functioning airfield.

[Red Four]

Good that this is likely to stay around now:

New owners of Manston donate land to Spitfire Museum - News - Kent News (http://www.kentnews.co.uk/news/new_owners_of_manston_donate_land_to_spitfire_museum_1_38087 60)

[NorthSouth]

It's just wonderful that we can depend on such selfless philanthropists to secure the future for local charities. And a clear indication that the new owners are so different from the previous ones.

[SWBKCB]

Two sides to the story?

Legal threat by businessman over Wynyard Park allegation (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/11545547.Legal_threat_by_businessman_over_Wynyard_Park_alleg ation/)

[DrBeauWebber]

Two sides to the story?
Not really - only Company's House side - go read it all there .....

[DrBeauWebber]

RiverOak visit Thanet to drive the Manston Airport CPO process forward.

**BREAKING NEWS** pro-Manston Airport groups welcome George Yerall, Niall Lawlor & Tony Freudmann from Riveroak who are now in Thanet!!! WOW they really mean business, they will be here for a while!!!! These are some of the most senior people at Riveroak check out their details : RiverOak Investment Corp. (http://www.riveroakic.com/about.html)
Save Manston Airport group say “Lets give them a warm Thanet welcome!!!!!!!!”
SMA know from Thanet District Council public statements that RiverOak are the only remaining possible Indemnity Partner for TDC.

Mr Yerrall said:
“We are in Thanet to achieve our goal to become Thanet District Council’s commercial partner in a CPO process and save Manston as an operating airport.
“The people of Thanet deserve nothing less.”

RiverOak remains committed to becoming a partner with Thanet District Council, which is currently considering a Compulsory Purchase Order of the Manston site, and will indemnify the Council – and therefore the taxpayer – against all costs arising out of the CPO. It aims to reopen Manston as a Sky Port and Integrated Aviation Services Hub within 3 months of the confirmation of the CPO and expects the new operation to move into profit within 2 years.

Phase 1
Following a successful CPO, the focus will be on re-establishing the airport’s cargo business, particularly on perishable cargo, which successfully represented Manston’s core business for several years prior to its closure.
Perishables are considered by the aviation industry to be the most rapidly growing air freight sector and Manston Airport is ideally suited, geographically and with the physical infrastructure of a long runway, hangars and space for development, to cope with virtually any level of demand.
We also plan to build up to five new hangars offering extensive capability for aircraft maintenance repair and overhaul operations (MRO) and aircraft recycling.

A number of original equipment manufacturers (OEM) have already expressed a keen interest in having a facility there.

Jobs for East Kent - Our plans for Manston will create significant local skilled employment, with an estimated 400 direct jobs being created in the first phase, as well as additional indirect jobs and economic benefit in Thanet and the East Kent region as a whole.

Phase 2
While cargo, teardown and MRO will form the core business plan, when the airport becomes operationally profitable RiverOak will consider adding passenger services, focusing on both routes to leisure destinations as well as number of scheduled business routes.

RiverOak UK web site :
Home - RiverOak Investments Corp (http://www.riveroakinvestments.co.uk/)

In a submission to the Transport Select Committee inquiry into Smaller Airports, RiverOak Investment Corp has called for an amendment into existing legislation regarding airport ownership and the responsibilities of owners when considering shutting them down.

RiverOak proposes that there should be an amendment to the Act obliging owners who intend to close an airport to consult with the interested parties mentioned in the Act; the imposition of a cooling off period of 12 months to enable further consultation to take place and, during that time, the prevention of asset stripping or other disposal of key airport equipment.

…. the focus will be on Manston’s potential to become a major hub for freighter traffic entering and leaving the UK. With capacity fast running out at London’s other airports, and with limits on how much cargo business can switch to the Midlands and North, RiverOak believes that Manston will have a key role in ensuring that the UK does not lose business in this crucial sector to competitor airports elsewhere in Europe.

RiverOak has been at pains to avoid unrealistic estimates. However, based on previous employment levels at Manston and on industry averages, we believe that a future scenario where Manston handles 150,000 tonnes of cargo annually, has five teardown lines in operation, one MRO operation, 750,000 passengers annually, and a growing private jet and flight training business can generate around 1,000 jobs.

RiverOak Investment Corp Llc - written evidence to Commons Select Committee on Smaller Airports :
http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/transport-committee/smaller-airports/written/13332.html

[paully]

Hmm...sorry to rain on peoples parade, but this is just too good to be true...have you all wondered what Riveroaks real intentions might actually be??...No mention of how they are going to get the airfield licence re instated...They are Hedge Funds after all..

[Charley B]

Many other airports ... large ones in the UK are also owned by Hedge Funds..River Oak are 100% committed to running MSE as an airport

[racedo]

Many other airports ... large ones in the UK are also owned by Hedge Funds..River Oak are 100% committed to running MSE as an airport

Hedge Funds sole purpose is to make money and extract as much as possible from each deal.

Manston was a very small regional airport that even when passengers using it had a limited number of flights.

Much as I would love to see it develop I doubt it ever will because it has too much competition and the capital investment needed plus running costs just will never make it profitable.

Get people to publish a real business plan rather than airy fariry aspirational one and then ask who is providing the funding and what profit will be made to reapy this funding and see what happens.

Council has no business using Taxpayers money on a folly.

[Charley B]

Council is NOT using taxpayers money..ALL expenses incurred are being paid for by River Oak..see documents
MSE is going to be mainly a Cargo hub.a thing that they did very well .fresh produce was turned round quickly and efficiently MSE could have operated so well..read all the ex staff comments... if it had not been intentionally run down by the owner..she never intended to run MSE as an airport sadly..she had other ideas !!

[DrBeauWebber]

No mention of how they are going to get the airfield licence re instated.
Oh we have a statement from the relevant minister - all ready to reinstate, as soon as he is asked.

[DrBeauWebber]

read all the ex staff comments
For example :
Ex Air Traffic Controller, staff and a tenant slam incompetent Manston management
http://www.savemanstonairport.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Ex-Air-Traffic-Controller-staff-and-a-tenant-slam-incompetent-Manston-management.pdf

[DrBeauWebber]

Council is NOT using taxpayers money..ALL expenses incurred are being paid for by River Oak

RiverOak from the start have stated :
“To be clear, what is proposed involves a transfer of ALL the risk surrounding the CPO from Thanet District Council to RiverOak. If the CPO fails for some unforeseen reason we will have to meet all the legal costs. Similarly if the eventual price of the land is higher than expected, we will have to pay it.

"We are not asking for any public funds to support this process; not from Thanet, not from KCC and not from the British Government.”

It is particularly noteworthy that as well as picking up the tab for all the CPO costs, RiverOak Heads of Agreement states that they will pick up the tab for all TDC legal costs for preparing the CPO.

[paully]

Dr...

If something sounds like its too good to be true, its usually because it is....we shall see

[Real World Sanity]

I see Beau Webber is broadcasting Riveroak propaganda far and wide! I have some questions for him, I have asked them many many times, yet Beau simply abandons his posts and hides rather than try and answer the inconvenient questions I pose him.

Lets see if he's braver in this forum;

1. Why is it, until the current owners bought a stake in the brownfield site at Manston, Riveroak's frontman was the only person or company to seek permission or zoning for houses at Manston?

2. If Riveroak are so keen to buy Manston, why did they not do so in the 2(ish) years it was for sale before Ms Gloag bought it?

3. If as he claims RO will be "picking up the tab" for the CPO process, why are TDC taxpayers currently facing a £90k bill for work already carried out, when will that be paid?

4. Is there a precedent anywhere for a property developer to have land they have purchased perfectly legally taken from them, and handed to another property developer?

5. If there is as much support for Manston as Beau claims, why have thye last 3 events staged by the SMA been embarassing failures?

6. How will the property developers Riveroak secure planning permission for Manston now that it's required as it is no longer an airport, due to it no longer holding a licence? (Promises of assitance getting the licence back is irrelevant even if that's true or possible)

7. If the going price for Manston is demonstrably approximately £30 million, how will the property deveopers Riveroak pay for the CPO, and the airfield, when they state they only have £20 million, and even that they are not prepared to place in escrow, so that TDC's costs would guaranteed to be covered?

That will do for now. I challenge you Beau, do you have answers, are are you going to run and hide as you have every other time you've been challenged?

[SWBKCB]

I'd be a bit dubious about a business case based on air freight of perishable goods - the supermarkets are in a cost cutting mood (and make MOL look like a beginner) and are looking to replace as much imported stuff as possible with homegrown - there's millions going into horticulture (look at Thanetearth just down the road)

And another latecomer to the aircraft recycling game?

[Real World Sanity]

Is it difficult to find staff to slate their management or tenants to slate their landlord (unsurprising that that has happened here, given that the tenant needs the runway, but doesn't have a lease securing the use of said runway)?

[Real World Sanity]

Seems the author isn't overly happy he can defend his assersions when challenged, and has taken down the site.

[racedo]

“To be clear, what is proposed involves a transfer of ALL the risk surrounding the CPO from Thanet District Council to RiverOak. If the CPO fails for some unforeseen reason we will have to meet all the legal costs. Similarly if the eventual price of the land is higher than expected, we will have to pay it.

It will be supposedly guaranteed via a Limited Liability Company that gets folded as soon as the costs mount up and it has failed.

[racedo]

I'd be a bit dubious about a business case based on air freight of perishable goods - the supermarkets are in a cost cutting mood (and make MOL look like a beginner) and are looking to replace as much imported stuff as possible with homegrown - there's millions going into horticulture (look at Thanetearth just down the road)

I'm with you on that as if going to hit Supermarket RDC's then need to be bringing it into the Midland because that really is the HUB rather than Kent.

As you point out Planet Thanet has been very successful if taking a share of UK Market, another one or two operations like this and imports reduce even further.

Sadly I see no USP in Manston that is not elsewhere closer to where it is needed.

[kcockayne]

Andy Wilby's letter is very interesting & informative as regards Manston. It would seem that the Management there were pretty poor & more than contributed to its demise.
However, I've had intimate & deep experience of management at a few airports, & what Andy says is pretty much par for the course (if a little bit worse than in my experience). That is, managers running airports with very little practical experience, knowledge, ability & nous !

[Real World Sanity]

Finding staff that critisise the management/owners of a business really is nothing unusual in that. They have a view of a large operation from their very limited view. Would you as a Tesco cashier for an opinion as to the correctness of the companies property investment strategy? I'm sure the ATC guys were great at moving a couple of planes a day around. Running an airport is a whole different ball game.

[Heathrow Harry]

If you were ambitious you probably wouldn't be at Carlisle, Manston, Prestwich, Donnie, Teeside, Newquay, Dundee etc etc

[kcockayne]

Real World Sanity

I've been VERY close to Senior Management ie involved in planning & strategic decisions/implementation on many occasions (particularly at one "successful airport"); & I can tell you that it was not a pretty sight & did not fill me with confidence in their skills including professional knowledge & understanding, marketing, knowledge of regulations, professional regulations & International Standards & Recommended Practices, staff relations, commercialism etc. etc. etc.
I know that there are two (or more) sides to every story, but I know who had the most professionalism in my experience - & it wasn't the Management ! It was more the Staff.
I appreciate that a "good" Management team does not, necessarily, need to know the details of everything that it is dealing with & obtains the necessary technical & professional advice from "the experts". But, getting it to listen to, understand, accept & implement decisions based on that advice was a VERY uphill struggle !
More or less everything (professional , regulatory & human resource-wise) had to be spelled out to them word by word. On some occasions only downright opposition & intransigence finally got the essential points through to them. But, it took an awful lot of effort.

[Twitcher]

From Andy Wilby, ex ATC at Manston: I was so irritated by the constant rumour about KLM "pulling out" of Manston that I wrote to my colleagues there to ask if they would put the matter straight. These two emails are from the MD of KLM Cityhopper:-

KLM SAY THEY WERE "STABBED IN THE BACK" BY MANSTON OWNERS.

From: Kreiken, EJ (SPLZA) - KLM
Subject: Re: KLM services from Manston
Date: Sunday, 26 October, 2014, 21:33

Dear Mr Wilby

Thank you for reply and kind and realistic words and you can use my response (in full) to put matters straight and in perspective as they really were at the time. Everytime we hear about Manston we feel the lost opportunity for the UK, the Kent region, local employment and our lost venture which did not get the time to materialise with a full summer season. Thank you once more for your professional controlller work guiding our aircraft and crews. The UK has to come to grips soon with her policy for regional airports and these airports (and e.g. amongst others our Klc operations) and airline connections are a vital lifeline for a modern economy and society as yours is. Hope is no strategy unfortunately. I wish, your family well to make ends meet, find new opportunities for emplyoyment and we are convinced that definitively destructing such a runway and location as Manston is in the long run not such a wise decision as understatement in the greater and continuously expanding London area as well as of a relatively booming South East England. Many regional airports now vie for our connections to Europe and the world.

Sincerly yours
Boet E. J. Kreiken
MD KLM Cityhopper

Date: Friday, 24 October, 2014 17:44
Dear Mr Wilby
Thank you for mail to our fine colleagues of KLM Cityhopper and they forwarded your request to me.You can understand how frustrated we were earlier this [year] after all our efforts and commercial and operational investments into the KLM/KLM Cityhopper Manston-Amsterdam connection to the world and to continental Europa. The whole sales force of Air France- KLM group was engaged, time, money, focus, campaigns, publications and whatsoever were put into it. As you say in the world
famous English Navy “all cannons out and fire”. We did that commercially and operationally. I still applaud our colleagues for all the work they did at the time to market, distribute and sell this new connection.

We did what we promised and delivered accordingly and with our reliable and punctual scheduled operation. The way and the speed in which Manston was closed is and was pretty shocking (not what we expect from a classic Kentish environment and also given the warm support we got from many fine associations and citizens of Kent and its surrounding area’s) and I can assure you we did lose money because of the closure, why: because we had to reroute our already booked loyal passengers again and arranged for same of course , extra costs for KLM. We also had to reroute our network and replanned where to put the assets, we lost weeks as well in this whole process (opportunity losses) and had to write off all the commercial and network investments made in the Manston campaign. Very frustrating for many in our company and just before the summer season!

The fact we started Manston and connected it to the great KLM Schiphol hub was a show of proof that we DID put our money where our mouth was. The whole story made up later on that Manston had to close because of KLM is complete nonsense, incorrect and complete reversion of truth. To protect the interest of our passengers and given the formal legal notice and risk stated by Manston Airport and its owners at the time that they would fully close the airport very quickly we had NO other choice to ACT. We are no fools and again we have the interest of our passengers at heart as well as of our company.

We were proud to fly on Manston and to start an operation is always pretty costly, risky and complex and the 2014 Manston was fully fixed in the KLM Network/Summer/Winter schedules. The booking window was fully open for a year ahead! Basically by suddenly closing the airport we never really got to the core of the business case in real life market circumstances. This is all I can and wantto say.

AirFrance-KLM , KLM and KLM Cityhopper showed their true colors as airline entrepreneurs in the Manston-Kent area . We did it and were – at least we felt it that way - stabbed in the back due many local and UK circumstances mixed with those of other private actors completely outside our control and again we had to act accordingly. We run an airline and serve passengers and with all respect do not run airports and or investment fund ventures. You can imagine how we look back at this whole very difficult experience. If we would have known this we would never have started the operation in the first place. We took the risk and due to airport closure we lost .We do not cry over spilled milk anymore now and this chapter is closed. I just write to you to put matters in its REAL perspective and to protect our name, brand and honor of our staff which did so much to start and fly the Manston operation. We are proud to serve and fly our millions of passengers from England, Wales and Scotland all over the world on our KLM Cityhopper and KLM aircraft serving British primary and regional airports. The association between our 2 countries and between KLM and the whole of Britain is very very strong and will remain to be so. Also many airports, their owners, cities and counties in the UK are happy to see the blue birds of KLM/KLM Cityhopper connecting their communities , industries and citizens to the Europe and The World and vice versa. As oldest commercial airline in the world still operating under its own brand name KLM Royal Dutch Airlines (95 years now) we continue to fly over the North Sea to serve United Kingdom whatever it takes!

I wish you well and sincerely yours,

Boet E.J. Kreiken
Managing Director
KLM Cityhopper

[Barling Magna]

Incendiary stuff. I wonder though.......do you think the Managing Director of KLM Cityhopper wanted his personal emails placed on PPRune?

[Real World Sanity]

Given that KLM's loadings were running at somewhat less than 50%, and the routes from Manston were clearly a loss leader for KLM, they would be looking for the cheapest possible airfield fees.

Given that every other airline had turned down the "opportunity" to fly fropm Manston, and Manston was losing £10k a day, is it any wonder that KLM were upset that they had to move to an airfield that is able to charge a profitable rate for it's services, rather than a cut price attempt to draw in any business at all, which even then failed to attract anything profitable.

These comments from KLM really mean little if anything. All they are really saying is that they are unhappy that their cheap place to run a loss leader from is no longer available to them.

You'll notice that nowhere do they say that their Manston operation made a profit, wonder why that might be ;)

[Twitcher]

Incendiary stuff. I wonder though.......do you think the Managing Director of KLM Cityhopper wanted his personal emails placed on PPRune?
He does say ...


Thank you for reply and kind and realistic words and you can use my response (in full) to put matters straight and in perspective as they really were at the time.

[Barling Magna]

True. I wonder though.

Sad, sad tale isn't it?

[Fairdealfrank]

Real World Sanity

I've been VERY close to Senior Management ie involved in planning & strategic decisions/implementation on many occasions (particularly at one "successful airport"); & I can tell you that it was not a pretty sight & did not fill me with confidence in their skills including professional knowledge & understanding, marketing, knowledge of regulations, professional regulations & International Standards & Recommended Practices, staff relations, commercialism etc. etc. etc.
It's not surprising, for the real top jobs it's not what you know it's who you know. It always was and always will be.

That's why the useless boss who finally gets the chop is given a massive bonus for being useless, then turns up in a new top job a few weeks later. Failing that there's always a quango chairmanship or two.



I know that there are two (or more) sides to every story, but I know who had the most professionalism in my experience - & it wasn't the Management ! It was more the Staff.
Again, it is always the way.


I appreciate that a "good" Management team does not, necessarily, need to know the details of everything that it is dealing with & obtains the necessary technical & professional advice from "the experts". But, getting it to listen to, understand, accept & implement decisions based on that advice was a VERY uphill struggle !
Exactly, it's a case of "why have a dog and bark yourself", but managers do need to take the expert advice offered and act on it. "Good management" is a management team that does this. Regretably most don't.


More or less everything (professional , regulatory & human resource-wise) had to be spelled out to them word by word. On some occasions only downright opposition & intransigence finally got the essential points through to them. But, it took an awful lot of effort.That's bad management, and the predominant style of mangement. Says it all really.

[litefoot1]

The KLM emails have been picked up by the Thanet Gazette.


KLM boss: Manston airport was ?missed opportunity? | Thanet Gazette (http://www.thanetgazette.co.uk/KLM-boss-Manston-airport-closure-8216-missed/story-23791153-detail/story.html)

[HZ123]

There has been a legacy of blind faith in support that the airport would succeed ! Sadly it is pointless blaming successive management teams for the failure's, airlines did not wish to fly there. Whatever the reasons behind KLMs' withdrawal the airfield needed considerably more movements daily to have any chance.

[LTNman]

Many Eastern European airports seem to survive on next to no movements but no doubt get state handouts via EU subsidies in part paid for by the British tax payer.

Isn't Margate and the area around Manston classed as a deprived area not that I am in favor of subsidies but Maston's issue could be that it is located in the wrong country.

[Twitcher]

Hundreds of campaigners fighting to save a defunct airport have gathered at the site for a visit by a US company that also wants to reopen it.

BBC News - Fight continues over Manston Airport (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-29863916)

[SWBKCB]

Many Eastern European airports seem to survive on next to no movements but no doubt get state handouts via EU subsidies in part paid for by the British tax payer.

Really? Care to support this - ever heard of the phrase "illegal state aid"?

[LTNman]

European Commission - PRESS RELEASES - Press release - State aid: Commission adopts new guidelines for state aid to airports and airlines (http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-14-172_en.htm)

Just Google "state aid for airports" it is all legal and has the full backing of the EU

[Fairdealfrank]

Many Eastern European airports seem to survive on next to no movements but no doubt get state handouts via EU subsidies in part paid for by the British tax payer.

Isn't Margate and the area around Manston classed as a deprived area not that I am in favor of subsidies but Maston's issue could be that it is located in the wrong country.


As Chancellor George Osborne says: the EU is not working for Britain.........

[SWBKCB]

So how is EU policy to blame for Manston's closing? :confused:Thought that was down to Free market economics??:O

[Fairdealfrank]

So how is EU policy to blame for Manston's closing? :confused:Thought that was down to Free market economics??


Think the poster was implying that there is no level playing field in the EU, and that the UK is at the wrong end off that playing field.

George Osborne appears to agree: "the EU is not working for Britain".

Obviously there are exceptions, but generally the EU prohibits member countries from providing state subsidies to industry and enterprises.

The idea is that firms that get into temporary trouble have to go the wall, tough luck. Again there are exceptions, e.g. the casino banks.

It's all part of the single market, and the inability of member countries to what they see fit and be in charge of their own destiny.

Just a thought about the most famous "lame duck" of them all, Rolls Royce. It went "belly-up" in 1971 and was nationalised/bailed out by the Edward Heath government. We joined the EEC/EC/EU in 1973.

Had it happened in 2001 instead of 1971, there would be no Rolls Royce.

[aw ditor]

So how come Prestwick got rescued for £1?

[SWBKCB]

I'm getting confused, so George Osborne would have stepped in and saved Manston if the EU hadn't stopped him? :confused:

[Fairdealfrank]

So how come Prestwick got rescued for £1?


AS mentioned previously, there are exceptions. Clearly there aren't enough of them.




I'm getting confused, so George Osborne would have stepped in and saved Manston if the EU hadn't stopped him?


Somehow don't think Manston Airport was on Osborne's mind when he made the comment.

[SWBKCB]

So why is it on the thread??

[Flying.Penguin]

So how come Prestwick got rescued for £1?

Because Scotland was on the lead-up to a referendum and the SNP were doing all they could to essentially buy votes. If there was no referendum I believe Prestwick would have been left to it.

[Fairdealfrank]

So why is it on the thread??
Read again from thread #1637 (written by LTNman) and see how the discussion develops...

[IB4138]

.....and there's more per Kentonline

Environment Agency stops breaking of aircraft at former Manston Airport site (http://www.kentonline.co.uk/thanet/news/environment-agency-stops-breaking-of-26850/)

[Twitcher]

Coverage in the Telegraph


City Diary: Dogfight looms over future of Battle of Britain airport - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/citydiary/11241683/City-Diary-Dogfight-looms-over-future-of-Battle-of-Britain-airport.html)

[Twitcher]

Manston Airport purchase plan likely to be dropped by Thanet District Council

BBC News - Manston Airport purchase plan likely to be dropped by Thanet District Council (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-30316772)

[DrBeauWebber]

Save Manston Airport Committee response to RiverOak’s reply to the Thanet District Council Officer’s report.

Recently Thanet District Council released a report by three interim Officers, who recommended not to proceed with a Compulsory Purchase Order for Manston Airport, as no Indemnity Partner has been identified.
RiverOak as the remaining possible Indemnity Partner, reply :

HAVE TDC OFFICERS EVEN READ RIVEROAK’S SUBMISIONS ?
Riveroak explain: TDC describe their proposal “as a "high risk option", this is plainly wrong, it betrays a complete misunderstanding of the draft agreement as well as the CPO process overall. We wonder whether the Council’s officers have even read it – there is no reference to it at all in the Report.”
Riveroak are disappointed in the “CURRENT administration”, “Such is our disappointment at the way we have been treated by the Council’s CURRENT administration…”, SMA certainly share that disappointment!
Riveroak give detailed evidence from government CPO protocol, that the route followed by the TDC officers is incorrect. They have described a process that is inappropriate and wrong in law, and have therefore misdirected the leader of the council Iris Johnston and her cabinet.
The Committee of SMA would expect elected councillors at every level, in Full Council, in the Cabinet and in the Scrutiny Committee, to subject the officers to the most intense interrogation. If they don’t feel confident in doing this themselves with the correct level of expertise they should invite the DCLG (Department of Communities and Local Government) to examine whether the 151 Officer’s Report is up to scratch or does it indeed have these fatal defects as RiverOak are stating.
Full council should seek Advice from Department of Communities of Local Government.
Riveroak say the 151 officer’s report to TDC is “full of inaccuracies and omissions, and MISREPRESENTS our submission to the Council.”.
The committee of SMA have been impressed with this: “We have invested an enormous amount of time and money in developing and promoting a viable business proposition for Manston Airport, We have set up an investment fund specifically for that purpose. We have instructed leading solicitors and surveyors, and two Queen’s Counsel, to advise us. We have begun negotiations to restore commercial cargo services to Manston. We have so far spent some £600,000 in doing all this.”
They have had top notch legal advice and have named who they have received this advice from - unlike TDC. TDC has, to date, refused to release the information relating to who they have received their advice from, even to the Cabinet. SMA ask “Why is this?”
Riveroak quote from a government guidelines on CPO : “A general indication of funding intentions ... will usually suffice to reassure the Secretary of State that there is a reasonable prospect that the scheme will proceed." this implies that the decision on funding would be made by the secretary of state, and it would not be for TDC to throw it out on a financial point.
On the due diligence process, they have supplied all the information and the Officers have completely ignored them.
Riveroak say : “We have asked to see the Council’s legal advice and have suggested that the Council’s advisers speak to our advisers to no avail. We doubt that the Council’s legal advice in reality supports the line that they are now taking. We challenge the Council to produce their legal advice.”
Riveroak : “In the course of formulating our response, with great disappointment we have learned that the Council Labour Group at a meeting on 14th October approved a resolution “that the Labour Group on Thanet Council should oppose all moves to acquire Manston Airport by compulsory purchase, irrespective of whether a suitable indemnity partner could be found”.
SMA ask - Has even one member of the cabinet prejudged this ?
A Committee member comments : “The perfect storm has arrived. I don't think I have ever seen an elected council commit suicide by choice!”
The full Riveroak response :
News - RiverOak Investments Corp (http://www.riveroakinvestments.co.uk/news/)
The government's guidelines on CPO which Riveroak quote:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/compulsory-purchase-and-the-crichel-down-rules-circular-06-2004

[01475]

Well I'm sure a property developer with absolutely no vested interest at all is the person to listen to with respect to whether or not their proposals put the public purse at risk!

The whole matter is nothing but a minefield that could blow up spectacularly, and the current owners of the land would do everything possible to make it do so.

I'm sure the council would accept an indemnity policy from a proper insurer, and I'm certain no insurer in their right mind would write such a policy.

[Twitcher]

Cabinet votes CP-NO on Manston airport- for now | Thanet Gazette (http://www.thanetgazette.co.uk/Cabinet-votes-CP-Manston-airport/story-25666711-detail/story.html)

[DrBeauWebber]

Manston runway vs Gatwick 1 runway :http://www.savemanstonairport.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/GE-Manston-Gatwick-1_cr_en.jpg
Here are same-scale Google Earth images of Manston (top) and Gatwick 1 (bottom) runways.
For Gatwick the usable length of its main runway (08R/26L) is 11,178 ft (3,407 m) when aircraft take off in a westerly
direction, and 10,863 ft (3,311 m) when takeoffs occur in an easterly direction.
Manston is double ended 9,016ft (2,748 m), and there is no difference.

[SWBKCB]

And your point is?

[Twitcher]

Manston could still have a future as an airport - according to a planning masterplan Thanet council has published.

While the council recently decided against an attempt to compulsory purchase the site, a new report appears to keep the door open to the prospect of it being revived as an airport.

The council has published a 15-year strategic blueprint for the area, setting out key policies on issues such as housing development, economic regeneration and the environment.

Thanet council says that Manston could still be an airport as it unveils draft local plan (http://www.kentonline.co.uk/kent-business/county-news/thanet-council-leaves-door-ajar-30013/)

[Twitcher]

The future of Manston Airport will be under the spotlight at Westminster today when MPs take evidence from both its new owners and those who want it to be kept open.


Future of Manston Airport in Ramsgate to be discussed at Westminster today (http://www.kentonline.co.uk/thanet/news/airports-future-discussed-at-parliament-31125/)

[Red Four]

Probably inevitable:
BBC News - Manston loses search and rescue service (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-31542599#?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed)

[Heathrow Harry]

Manston just doesn't have the catchment area to succeed - the nearest town of any size is Maidstone and that is almost as close to LGW as Manston

The area around Manston isn't exactly booming economically and so you aren't going to get the business traffic

Cargo?? Only if you pay them to come..........

When airports such as Leeds are suffering you can see you need a lot of punters to be attractive

[blackbeard1]

"The former owner of Manston Airport has been told by MPs to put her deal with the new owners into the public domain to counter claims of asset stripping."
BBC News - Manston Airport: Ann Gloag told to reveal sale details (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-31862552)

[pottwiddler]

You may want to read this too for background information.

House of Commons - 9th Report - Smaller airports - Transport (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201415/cmselect/cmtran/713/71306.htm)

[nigel osborne]

Can someone tell me what is going to happen at Manston , can it be saved as an airport or is it going to housing ?.

I just keep reading news report after news report about Govt committee reports, reviews, more reports and more reviews and on it goes.

Trying to wade my way through all the woffle ans spin and everyone blaming everyone else...


can anyone say whats going to happen next please !



Nigel

[SWBKCB]

Basically the site has been sold to a firm of developers (see post 1579) with a history in industrial parks and most of the aviation related infrastructure has been sold. The rest is just noise.

[nigel osborne]

Thanks SWBKCB.


Quite sad end to a great drome :sad:

Nigel

[moonburn]

Incorrect SWBKCB by guite a way. The new "owners" have been discredited and a massive scam and developers cover up exposed, involving local and county councils, false accounting and representation, lack of democratic process and that's just for starters. Pro airport groups numbering over 30,000 people in total have pursued this to westminster and have gained the support of ministers, mp's and the transport select committee. The fight for Manston has only just begun and will be very, very interesting. Watch this space or the Save Manston Airport.org.uk website.

[SWBKCB]

Which of that isn't noise?

[Heathrow Harry]

sounds like local government across the world to me..............

Manston is dead and gone

[Twitcher]

PwC to report back to DfT and Thanet Council on the future of Manston Airport.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/consultant-for-manston-airport-review-announced

[canberra97]

There is no economic case to re open Manston as an operational airport again, the airlines that were using the airport and there wasn't many of them have long gone elsewhere with no likeyhood of them returning so we should all face up to the fact that the end has come for Manston to be a viable airfield and to just allow the site to be redeveloped into housing and an industrial site which in the long term will hugely benefit the area more than one or two flights a day if the airport was to reopen.

History and nostalgia is one thing but the reality is real, there is absolutely no need what so ever for Manston to re open and the sooner people realise that the better it will be for any significant development of the site.

[GHEVY]

The discussion regarding this has gone full circle quiet a few times I think. From the perspective of an outsider, what I find astonishing is how much government in the UK is allowed to exert influence over, and interfere in what is essentially the sale of a private enterprise, from parliament to local council. To each country its own and I respect that but personally I much prefer the more business culture in North America, as harsh as that free market culture may seem to others.

[DrBeauWebber]

Well, now and over the last few months, a huge amount has happened regarding Manston Airport. Here are a few updates about where we are, in getting our Manston Airport back.

All of us – Sir Roger Gale MP, the Transport Select Committee, The Department for Transport, Thanet District Council leader Iris Johnston, USA company RiverOak (still totally committed to reopening Manston despite the hurdles placed in their path by TDC), the pro-Manston groups Save Manston Airport, Supporters of Manston Airport, Think Support Manston, Why Not Manston, Manston Works and others – all are working together to Save Manston Airport, and will continue to do so. We are not going away.
The total membership of the pro-Manston Airport supporters has increased to around 30,000. The Save Manston Airport Association now has over 9,100 members.

We all gave extensive written evidence to the House of Commons Select Committee on Transport (Smaller Airports) over the Autumn and Winter, and then took a 49 seater coach-load of members up to the Select Committee at the Houses of Parliament, on 2nd February, when we the public, the “owners” and the councils gave oral evidence, on the special Smaller Airport case of Manston.

We took a further coach-load up on the 23rd February, when Robert Goodwill MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport, and Ben Smith (Deputy Director Aviation Policy and Delivery, Department for Transport) gave evidence. Others travelled by train as well on both occasions, and overflow rooms were needed at the HoP.

http://www.savemanstonairport.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/DSF2482-2-300x201.jpg

http://www.savemanstonairport.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/DSF2546_en-300x201.jpg

We do have to say we cannot be more pleased with the way the Select Committee, under Madam Chairman Louise Ellman, listened to all, considered the evidence carefully, and then reported. None of the major players escaped unscathed. Questions like “Who actually owns the Airport” and “Where did this £7m come from” and “What support has KCC given TDC” remain, as we understand, not yet fully answered to the Select Committee.

The report is published in full at the following link, but you can also read a 1 page summary as far as it affects Manston Airport :
• http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201415/cmselect/cmtran/713/713.pdf
• Smaller Airports – Manston – SMA 1 page summary
http://www.savemanstonairport.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Smaller-Airports-Manston-SMA-1-page-summary.pdf

http://www.savemanstonairport.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/GrantShapps-TrustRiverOak-10646741_857959567568510_2744825176413724975_n-300x169.jpg

http://www.savemanstonairport.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/10408171_10153094757511445_6676833175312688841_n-300x224.jpg

Are we getting support from central Government? Certainly. Cabinet Minister Grant Shapps came down to talk with Thanet District Council, and speak with us at the Airport, in the Autumn, the Prime Minister has said he “wants it sorted”. Transport Minister John Hayes has been down numerous times to speak with TDC, and us – here he is at a surprise meeting at the Airport, talking with a few of our members.

We again went up to London on the 3rd March, with RiverOak, with MPs Sir Roger Gale and Laura Sandys, to deliver a letter to No 10 Downing St., outlining Manston Airport’s outstanding suitability as a reliever airport for the London Airports System. :

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RiverOak Investments, Save Manston Airport and Why Not Manston? deliver Reliever Airport case to the Prime Minister - RiverOak Investments Corp (http://www.riveroakinvestments.co.uk/riveroak-investments-save-manston-airport-manston-present-reliever-airport-case-prime-minister/#more-904)

Now the Transport Minister has just come down to Kent again on Thursday 17th March, in bitter weather, especially to tell us that the Department for Transport have now appointed PwC to look into the matter of the Compulsory Purchase Order, and examine both RiverOak and TDC's documentation.

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https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1069685093057960

We expect that PwC, with revenues of £25 billion per year, and with 200,000 employees, should be able to do the job quickly.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/consultant-for-manston-airport-review-announced

In Sir Roger's speech he makes the crucial point that not all PwC's findings have to wait to be announced until the end :

http://www.savemanstonairport.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Roger-Moat-1-LOW-RES-300x287.jpg

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=961505070547292

As Sir Roger said, the urgent need is for a statement from PwC on RiverOak's suitability to be an Indemnity Partner for TDC - a company like PwC will already have extensive documentation on the Brookfield/RiverOak consortia (Brookfield have just purchased the rest of Canary Wharf for £2.6b).
Sir Roger, and John Hayes, expect a statement from PwC on this "within days". Then TDC can again meet and discuss the CPO, hopefully with the assurance that RiverOak’s statement that they will cover all the costs of the CPO stands, and that there is no way that they can be left out of pocket.

Other points I want to draw your attention to :
The Labour Shadow government appear to have woken up to what the TDC Labour group are up to : On Thursday, as well the Government Transport coming down to talk to us at Manston, the Shadow Transport minister Mr Dugher came down to visit the campaign office of South Thanet Labour candidate Will Scobie.
http://m.thanetgazette.co.uk/Shadow-transport-secretary-government-slow-act/story-26201266-detail/story.html

But what he ended with is a lulu :
"it is really important that local residents have a big say, after all it is their area and it will be their airport."

So Manston Airport is being noticed nationally – As well as the Conservatives and Labour, UKIP also have made it their main plank down here in Thanet, and no one doubts Russ Timpson's and the Lib Dem's commitment to Manston Airport. We are indeed forging true cross-party support for Manston Airport.
Now we need Thanet District Council to listen to them all and go for the Compulsory Purchase Order.

Kind Regards, Dr. Beau Webber
Chairman, Save Manston Airport Association

[Heathrow Harry]

you'd think there was an election coming.......

"t is really important that local residents have a big say, after all it is their area and it will be their airport."

fine as long as they pay all the costs now and in the future

[asdf1234]

Two points re the excellent summary on support for Manston.

1. PWC as agents for Infratil sold the airport to Ann Gloag. Good to see they still have their noses stuck firmly in the trough despite being at the heart of the botched original sale. Go PWC, Go! Ra-Ra-Ra!

2. Other bidders for the airport enjoyed explicit support for their business plan from KCC. Why won't RiverOak talk to these other bidders to strengthen their own business plan?

Another, unrelated, but interesting point: Charles Buchannan, ex MD at Manston and now firmly ensconced at Manston's rival Lydd (aka London Ashford International) submitted a proposal to the Davies enquiry stating that Manston was linked to London via a rail link that went via the Medway towns. One can only assume Mr Buchannan doesn't know much about railways (despite a previous role with Eurotunnel) as if you go in the opposite direction (via Canterbury and Ashford), you get to London a whole lot quicker. And with network rail committed to line improvements the journey will be sub 60 minutes by
2017. No one can be sure but misstating the rail connection time cannot have helped Manston's cause as a relief airport in front of the Davies Commission.

[SWBKCB]

^^^ What HH says!

When did Manston last make a profit? Aviation seems to be full of people with great ideas about what to do with other people's money.

[DrBeauWebber]

"2. Other bidders for the airport enjoyed explicit support for their business plan from KCC. Why won't RiverOak talk to these other bidders to strengthen their own business plan?"

None of the bidders offered a 25 year fully costed business plan as specified by the relevant Thanet District Council Officer : "25 year cash flow of income against costs, under different potential scenarios - using best mid and worst assumptions".

"Aviation seems to be full of people with great ideas about what to do with other people's money."

RiverOak say :
“We are firm in our belief that Manston has a viable future across many lines of air freight, aviation
services including maintenance, recycling, private charter and commercial passenger services.”
“To be clear, what is proposed involves a transfer of ALL the risk surrounding the CPO from Thanet
District Council to RiverOak. If the CPO fails for some unforeseen reason we will have to meet all the
legal costs. Similarly if the eventual price of the land is higher than expected, we will have to pay it.
We are not asking for any public funds to support this process; not from Thanet, not from KCC and
not from the British Government.”
It is their money and they are prepared to risk it.

[SWBKCB]

But presumably not enough money that the owners would be willing to sell it to them? They want to buy it at the price they want to pay, not what it costs.

[Andy_S]

None of the bidders offered a 25 year fully costed business plan as specified by the relevant Thanet District Council Officer : "25 year cash flow of income against costs, under different potential scenarios - using best mid and worst assumptions".

How can anyone predict what will happen to the aviation industry over the next 25 years?

Playing with scenarios and assumptions over that time frame might as well be a work of fiction.

[DrBeauWebber]

But presumably not enough money that the owners would be willing to sell it to them? They want to buy it at the price they want to pay, not what it costs.

They have offered the full asking price of £7 million. Which is also the value listed on the relevant Companies House docucuments.

[deedave]

Readers should take care when pro-Manston lobby groups make claims of support running into the tens of thousands. Most of this support appears to exist in cyberspace and is viewed with suspicion. The recent "biggest ever rally" to mark the anniversary of closure attracted some 200 people. The only scientifically accurate data taken by the council on local opinion was regarding night flights, where the vote was 2-1 against. Be careful.

[SWBKCB]

They have offered the full asking price of £7 million. Which is also the value listed on the relevant Companies House documents

The price is what somebody is willing to sell it at.

[Andy_S]

They have offered the full asking price of £7 million. Which is also the value listed on the relevant Companies House docucuments.

So basically, they've offered to pay no more than the asset value of Manston.

Somehow that doesn't fill me with confidence..........

[DrBeauWebber]

DeeDave - over 10,000 membership signatures have been collected on paper by one of the other pro-Manston Airport groups.

On Monday 21st July a petition was presented to 10 Downing St, by the Thanet MPs Sir Roger Gale and Laura Sandys, TG Aviation and the Save Manston Airport group. This petition had 26,524 signatures in support of re-opening Manston as a working airport : 16,552 online & 9,972 on paper

A 38 degrees double poll "Yes to CPO" / "No to CPO" run by an independent organisation has reached the heady total of 41 votes against re-opening Manston Airport, and remained at a steady 98% votes in support of reopening, across both Kent and Thanet.

http://www.savemanstonairport.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/38-degrees-poll-300x281.jpg

[SWBKCB]

How often have these people flown from Manston? How much money are they prepared to put in?

[deedave]

These petitions are well known in East Kent and are rapidly losing credibility. None of the signatories, whether online or on paper have been independently verified, and anyone with an ounce of common sense knows how such things can be altered to suit the needs of a lobby group. The only proven survey was taken by the council which showed a 2:1 opposition to night flights. The reality is probably that the local population has little interest in Manston Airport, as evidenced by it's poor economic performance when it was open. The core group of activists looks to be a couple of hundred people, as this is the number who turn up to the various rallies. A local schoolteacher is standing for parliamentary election as candidate for the "Manston Independent Party". It will be interesting to see how many votes she gets.

[01475]

I seem to recall that the last re-opening plan I saw failed because it involved the local authority taking significant financial risk in the event of the failure of the airport (which the pro-airport crowd claimed was minimal as the developer offered to underwrite it, but which was not at all as the in the event of the failure of the airport the developers ability to make good on the promise was likely to be limited ).

Has the plan actually changed since then, or are they just hoping that some publicity will bully the local authority into signing on the dotted line?

[deedave]

No new plan has been announced.
"Bullying" is probably the correct term.
Google "support manston facebook" and you can see it for yourself.
Kent County Council has produced a succint and accurate description of the airports 15 year "commercial" history.
This can be found by Googling "manston pickle facebook".
Good Luck!

[DrBeauWebber]

This is a continuation of the Save Manston Airport Newsletter, posted 21st March : #1673
Updated 2015-04-01

So Manston Airport is being noticed nationally – As well as the Conservatives and Labour, UKIP also have made it their main plank down here in Thanet, and no one doubts Russ Timpson's and the Lib Dem's commitment to Manston Airport. We are indeed forging true cross-party support for Manston Airport.
Now we need Thanet District Council to listen to them all and go for the Compulsory Purchase Order.

But we also need to ask what is the situation regarding Manston Airport at Kent County Council (KCC), and we need an explanation of KCC Leader Paul Carter’s position on Manston Airport. On the surface, the matter could not be clearer :
On Thursday 17th July Kent County Council (KCC) held a Council Meeting, and unanimously supported : “Kent County Council supports the actions taken so far by Thanet District Council to retain Manston as a regional airport. We recognise the value that a regional airport brings to East Kent and are disappointed at its closure. Kent County Council will explore with Thanet District Council ways in which it can support proposals to retain Manston as an airport.” KCC’s first ever unanimous Full Council vote !
Excellent – so what have they done to support TDC in the intervening 8 months ? – Well after much investigation they claim to have sent one email to a TDC officer.

The Select Committee on Transport (Smaller Airports) had this to say :
Kent County Council

49. Kent County Council (KCC) is the local transport authority for Kent, which means it has strategic oversight of aviation in the county. On 17 July 2014, KCC considered the case of Manston airport. County councillors agreed the following motion by 82 votes to nil:
That Kent County Council supports the actions taken so far by Thanet District Council to retain Manston as a regional airport. We recognise the value that a regional airport brings to East Kent and are disappointed at its closure. Kent County Council will explore with Thanet District Council ways in which it can support proposals to retain Manston as an airport.[69]

Paul Carter, Leader, KCC, attended and voted at that meeting.

50. In September 2014, Paul Carter commented on the sale of Manston to Chris Musgrave and Trevor Cartner:
Chris Musgrave and Trevor Cartner have a fantastic track record in taking over large and difficult sites following the demise of earlier uses, and regenerating them to create jobs and bring economic benefits to the wider area. Their team has done this at Wynyard Park in Billingham, where they have created 2,000 jobs and attracted £200 million of private investment, and at Discovery Park here in Kent where more than 1,000 new jobs have been added to the 600 that Pfizer left behind. I have every confidence that they can do even more at Manston.[70]
Paul Carter's remarks in September 2014 were inconsistent with the motion agreed by KCC on 17 July 2014.

51. We asked Paul Carter to explain his position. He told us that "the motion that was supported unanimously by the county council said we would be prepared to support Thanet district council in a CPO process at Manston, provided a viable and thriving airport could be delivered at Manston."[71] He subsequently admitted that there was no such caveat to the KCC motion.[72]
He also reiterated his enthusiasm for the redevelopment of the Manston site rather than its operating as an airport.[73]
We asked him whether Trevor Cartner or Chris Musgrave had shown him detailed plans for the redevelopment. He replied, "They showed me nothing."[74]

52. Kent County Council has the legal and financial resources to assess complex CPO cases. Despite having agreed a motion to support Thanet District Council, it failed to deploy those assets. In failing to support Thanet District Council's scrutiny of the proposed CPO at Manston, Kent County Council also failed to fulfil its strategic oversight function as the local transport authority.

What has been Paul Carter’s response to this challenge by the Transport Select Committee ? Well he has had produced (we believe using KCC officers’ time and KCC money) a glossy 36 page PDF document traducing Manston Airport and RiverOak, and extolling the property speculators who are in charge of Manston Airport.

The Save Manston Airport association took a full 32 seater coach of supporters to County Hall, to attend the most recent KCC Full County Council.

Although Councillor after Councillor tried to raise the matter of Manston Airport, discussion was disallowed as the Leader Paul Carter had ignored the matter in his address. Councillor Will Scobie challenged the chair on the relevant point of the constitution, but this also was disallowed, though now is a matter for further discussion.
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Current question remain, among others concerning why TDC did not reply positively to KCC’s apparent single offer of legal assistance ? This is under investigation by TDC.

Today, 1st April, the Secretary of State for Transport - The Rt. Hon. Patrick McLoughlin - came down to Manston Airport at 1.00 p.m. to meet with Sir Roger Gale and Craig Mackinlay. At very short notice on a week day about 150 people turned out to cheer the unveiling and signing of a 5 point action plan. The Conservatives have firmly nailed their Rosette to the mast, there can be no going back for them ! As Sir Roger said, there is no Plan B.
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Patrick McLoughlin, Secretary of State for Transport at Manston Airport 01/04/2015: "I just wanted to come down today to give you my assurance that we will do all we can to back the campaign and to see Manston being operated again as an airport and we will take the measures that are necessary to do that."
Sir Roger Gale: "The Prime Minister is behind this, the Department of Transport is behind it, that's why the Secretary of State for Transport is here today, the Department for Business is behind this. We want Manston up and running again, we are determined to achieve it."

Earlier in the week, commenting upon the announcement of new and extended Enterprise Zones, Communities Minister Penny Mordaunt has said: "….. our planning guidance is clear that aviation is a key driver for economic growth and that local authorities should always consider the role airports play in boosting connections for local people and businesses”.

The current situation is that Mr. Cartner and Mr. Musgrave, who are in charge of the airport, are publishing a whole page advert in two papers. The Save Manston Airport group raised over £1700 over the weekend, to fund a whole page advert as reply, in the Kentish Gazette, and the Supporters of Manston Airport are funding a £500 whole page advert in the KM Extra the following week.
Dr. Beau Webber
Chairman, Save Manston Airport Association.

[fairflyer]

Really think so many of the 'save Manston' protaganists are clueless about the consequential costs of reinstating and then maintaining an airport with very limited viability for significant commercial operations.

Take Cornwall-owned Newquay for example which costs in subsidy about £3m/annum to the council - not a huge figure compared to the estimated gross value added to the economy, nevertheless, it's a cost. But it's the huge capital costs that will hurt over the years.

Cornwall Council spent approximately £76m transforming the former military airfield to a fully compliant civil airport – of this, £49m came from European funding, with £27m coming from the Council. The European funding agreement committed the Council to having an operational airport for the next twenty years. If the airport was to close before the 20 years was up, the Council could have to repay the £49m. Kent wouldn't qualify for that type of funding anyway.

Cornwall considered selling the airport - but you can only sell an airport if there is someone willing to buy it. The Council did test the market to see if anyone was interested prior to the last unitary election, but no buyers came forward. The national context of why no-one was interested could be the reason several UK airports run by the private sector either closed
or were brought back into the public sector because they were not viable. (Cardiff and Glasgow Prestwick).

So, the 530,000 good citizens of Cornwall pay perhaps an extra £6/annum to keep the place running, but it's the great chunks of capital that will hurt periodically to maintain, upgrade and remain compliant - money that will have to be diverted from other local services - hospitals, schools etc. Do the people of Thanet really think they want to face that? Probably not when they see the numbers for the next twenty years or more.

[EastofKoksy]

Manston Airport is not viable as an airport business.

Several airlines have attempted to make money flying scheduled services in/out of Manston. Some went bust trying whilst all the others lost money. The airport just doesn't have the population in its catchment area to make services viable. It is in the wrong place.

The campaign to 'save Manston' is deluded. The only reason politicians are showing an interest is because there is an election campaign and UKIP is contesting one of the local seats.

[Twitcher]

Regarding the two previous posts ..

The council will spend NO money in opening or running the airport, the proposed buyer and owner will cover all costs.

There are no plans to fly scheduled passenger services from the airport. Freight and other non airline operations will be the businesses on site.

[paully]

Twitcher

What makes you so convinced that the next buyers/owners will be able to make a go of it...Since the RAF left all the others have failed :=

[bad bear]

Many airports and airlines quote the financial benefits for the area that an airport brings and claim thousands of jobs will be created if the airport continues or lost if it closes . There are even figures floated to suggest that the local economy benefits by £x millions. This is used to justify councils at places places like Prestwick and Derry spending large sums of money propping up dead airports. Many years ago there was an airline with F100s at Manston flying schedules Does anyone know if thousands of jobs in the local community were lost when the scheduled flights ended all those years ago and whether there was a big down turn in the local economy ?

bb

[SWBKCB]

All good knock about electioneering stuff!

However, surprised a Minister of State put his name to something which says the govt "...will make sure the CAA will grant the licence needed...as swiftly as possible".

Presumably this is sloppy drafting and means that the CAA will review the application quickly?

[deedave]

Accurate information for interested parties here.

www.scribd.com/doc/259697336/KCC-Position-Statement-on-Manston-Airport

[paully]

Thanks for that, a very interesting read and some real facts for once...

[lotus1]

I have just arrived back from alicante today total mayhem at Gatwick speaking to a family from Margate in immigration they wished now manston was open I also totally believe now regional airports should be used landed at gatwick at 1440pm left gatwick at 1620pm?

[Red Four]

Maybe suggest them to try Southend from Alicante - wouldn't take 1hr40mins to leave the terminal after landing.

[Twitcher]

"Transport Minister John Hayes Delivers Double Boost for Manston Airport
John Hayes, the Minister of State for Aviation, has today delivered a double boost to the campaign to save Manston Airport. He has announced:
A new deal for search-and-rescue services in the South East of England: Bristow, the company that provides search-and-rescue services on behalf of the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, had originally planned to base two helicopters at Manston, but the airport closed in May 2014.
The Minister of State and Prime Minister`s Special Representative has today announced that instead of agreeing a long-term contract for Bristow to base their helicopters elsewhere, he has agreed a one-year deal in which the helicopters are based only temporarily at Lydd Airport. This paves the way for the helicopters to return to Manston once the airport reopens.
He is removing one of the key barriers to the compulsory purchase of Manston: One of the key stumbling blocks to Thanet District Council issuing a Compulsory Purchase Order for Manston was the perceived lack of confidence in the financial indemnities offered by RiverOak - the US firm interested in buying Manston and running it as an airport. Following work by PWC, who were commissioned by the Government to review all the documents that have informed decisions in relation to Manston to date, the Minister has today told the Leader of Thanet District Council on the basis of the independent PWC analysis that he “is satisfied by the indemnity offered by RiverOak to protect the council against the costs of the Compulsory Purchase Order.”
John Hayes said: “I have been paying close attention to the future of Manston Airport throughout my time in the Department for Transport. And I believe the announcements I have made today are huge steps towards securing Manston’s future as a working airport. It is further evidence that it really is possible for Craig Mackinlay and Sir Roger Gale to deliver their five-point plan for Manston. Now, if local people want to see that plan implemented, they have to vote Conservative on May 7th - because while others may shout from the sidelines, the Conservatives have the strength to deliver.”
Craig Mackinlay said: “The good news just keeps on coming. I have wanted to give Manston a long-term future as a working airport for a long time. That’s why, back in 2001, I tried to launch a low-cost airline flying mainly from Manston to Malaga. So I’ve always been committed to the place. With the Conservative five-point plan to save Manston and the great news announced by the minister today, I am more confident than ever that we will succeed.
“The reason we are making such good progress is down to the fact that we have such a strong Conservative team, which includes Sir Roger Gale in North Thanet, important Ministers like John Hayes and the Secretary of State Patrick McLoughlin, together with a team of Conservative councillors, led by Bob Bayford. In contrast, UKIP - who have jumped on the bandwagon with Manston as with so many other issues - don’t have the power to deliver and to date have contributed nothing to this effort whatsoever.
Roger Gale has added:
“The fact that Bristows, a strong commercial organisation, are prepared to demonstrate their faith in Manston and their willingness to give us time to get the airport operational again speaks volumes. Search & Rescue will be coming home to the airfield where it belongs and this should send out a clear message, if nothing else does, that the Government means business and that there is no “Plan B”. I understand that there may be those who will say “It will all change after the election”. Those people are, quite simply, wrong. We are in this for the long haul: the nation needs Manston Airport, Kent – with or without the Leader of KCC – needs Manston Airport and Thanet needs Manston Airport and that is what we are going to have”.
And the Leader of Thanet`s Conservatives, Cllr. Bob Bayford, has said;
“I am satisfied that it is safe to proceed on the basis of the assurances given by Price Waterhouse Coopers via the Minister of State and can therefore say today, without equivocation, that a Conservative controlled council elected on May 7th will take immediate steps to instigate the processes necessary to compulsorily purchase Manston Airport on a back-to-back deal that will enable the airport to return to full operational status as swiftly as possible. Too much time has been lost and too much uncertainty caused already and we need to get on with this”

[Charley B]

Great news..badly needed as a diversion airport when there are problems at LGW or LHR :)

[paully]

I see Farage has got them seriously rattled indeed...Always beware of politicians making promises at election times. The famous prawn sandwich lasts longer :bored:

[lotus1]

Yes great news about time a bit of sence been made its a pity it's been shut down for a year with all problems which have occurred within the year

[deedave]

Apparently this information is based on a press release issued by the wife of a local Tory prospective parliamentary candidate. The leader of Thanet Council who herself had a meeting with the transport minister today has placed an email into the public domain stating that this information is untrue. PwC have issued no reports regarding Manston and the prospective purchasers have offered "nothing new". The owners of the Manston site are planning to report the Tories to the electoral commission. All very confusing. I can't find the press release on the candidates website any more. Has it been removed?

[NorthSouth]

Haven't they already sold off a lot of the key airport equipment including the radar? If so, add £5-10m to the bill. Plus the cost of relocating Bristows twice.

[SWBKCB]

Manston Airport announcements made by minister for aviation - News - Kent News (http://www.kentnews.co.uk/news/manston_airport_announcements_made_by_minister_for_aviation_ 1_4028574)

Manston airport: owners consider reporting Tories to Electoral Commission | Thanet Gazette (http://www.thanetgazette.co.uk/Manston-airport-owners-consider-reporting-Tories/story-26309662-detail/story.html)

Book your seats now for the judicial review...

[01475]

If the transport minister genuinely feels (on a basis informed by appropriate legal advice) that the guarantee is sufficient to protect the council then presumably he'll have no hesitation in offering to cover any losses on their part.

I don't hold my breath.

[SWBKCB]

Quote from Wiki

Purdah is the pre-election period in the United Kingdom, specifically the time between an announced election and the final election results.[1] The time period prevents central and local government from making announcements about any new or controversial government initiatives (such as modernisation initiatives or administrative and legislative changes) which could be seen to be advantageous to any candidates or parties in the forthcoming election. Where actual advantage to candidates is proven in law based on precedent cases to have been given this amounts to a breach of Section 2 of the Local Government Act 1986.

[Twitcher]

Their vision ...
Manston | Sharing The Vision (http://www.sharingthevision.co.uk/)

[PLAMALTN]

Honest question here folks, been out of the country training for a year and not really seen much to do with the closure etc. We overflew MSE the other day enroute to Brussels, the Captain and I got into a discussion as he was a regular with MK Cargo. He said it was a pointless exercise re-opening as airlines would no longer be interested. My question is:-

Are there any Airlines that are truly missing Manston, and if reopened who would they gain?

Is it really needed as a diversion airport, it may have had its share of diverts over the years, but they must have been few and far between, right?

I don't want any airports closed, we just failed to see any real justification for spending shed loads.

[BISH-BASH-BOSH]

Kingshill MK2
:D

[Andy_S]

In a dramatic election night, one story seems to have been quite forgotten.

That's right. In the Thanet South constituency, the Manston Airport Independent Party polled 191 votes. Man the barricades, the smell of revolution is in the air......:E

Just to put that into perspective, that's somewhat less than two thirds of the votes cast in favour of Al Murray, the Pub Landlord (318). Heck, even the Lib Dems received more votes.....

So much for the future of Manston Airport being a big electoral issue.

[compton3bravo]

The winning Tory candidate did mention Manston in his acceptance speech that he would do everything possible to get the airport open again. Who does he think will operate from there, answers on the back of a postage stamp please. Pi***ng in the wind I think.

[lotus1]

Now the blues are back in power let's see if they will keep to there promise to reopen manston . As much as I would love to see this happen I smell not just seaweed? But something else?

[lotus1]

I could be wrong but ukip have won the running of kent county council state manston is on the cards to get this up and running as a airport watch this space could be very interesting want to use this as a master diversion airport and not a big housing estate they have got my vote

[ifonly]

I could be wrong but ukip have won the running of kent county council state manston is on the cards to get this up and running as a airport watch this space could be very interesting want to use this as a master diversion airport and not a big housing estate they have got my vote

Without punctuation it's very difficult to understand exactly what your point is, but UKIP have gained overall control of Thanet District Council NOT Kent County Council.

[DrBeauWebber]

The vote was counted today for the Thanet District Council.
Final for all 23 Thanet wards:
51 out of 56 Councillors Pro for Manston Airport CPO :
Total ---- Con 18 ---- Ukip 33 ---- Lab 4 ---- Ind 1

[Charley B]

Great News :)

[paully]

So you think these guys are going to spend millions they havent got, opening an airport no one wants or needs, and certainly haven`t in the past..I think a housing estate is about right..It will generate loads more revenue without costing you ratepayers any money..Which bit don`t you like??..or could it be that you are`nt actually Thanet ratepayers??...hmm

[lotus1]

Not bringing politics in to the topic you mention much revenue the housing will bring in say that to the 150 people who lost there jobs when the airport closed the level of unemployment in the Thanet area is high so many broken promises which have left to nothing I say give the airport a chance no matter what party's are in .

[Andy_S]

I say give the airport a chance no matter what party's are in .

The airport has been "given a chance" for many, many years and has never even come close to being commercially viable.

[IB4138]

Don't be surprised if politics actually do play apart here.

Ann Gloag's, brother Sir Brian Souter, has been a big supporter of the SNP financially . The BBC reported in August 2014 that Souter had donated £1 million to the campaign for independence. There are no reports of if and by how much he may have financed the SNP in the recent election.

The UK Government have recently shown their support for Manston and now Thanet District Council is Ukip run, who want it reopened.

I can see a CPO backed and underpinned financially by Riveroak resurfacing.

[SWBKCB]

Politicians can't make airlines fly there or pay the bills - more likely there will be years of argument while the airfield lies empty and nobody wins* (least of all those living locally)

*except the legal profession, which is a given...

[DrBeauWebber]

"without costing you ratepayers any money" - still telling lies about the airport costing Thanet money ? :
RiverOak : “To be clear, what is proposed involves a transfer of ALL the risk surrounding the CPO from Thanet District Council to RiverOak. If the CPO fails for some unforeseen reason we will have to meet all the legal costs. Similarly if the eventual price of the land is higher than expected, we will have to pay it.
We are not asking for any public funds to support this process; not from Thanet, not from KCC and not from the British Government.”

[01475]

... a promise that is only as good as their ability to make good on it if the airport fails and they go out of business...

[litefoot1]

Manston airport: Thanet council Ukip leader Chris Wells says council will try to buy the site with compulsory purchase order (http://www.kentonline.co.uk/thanet/news/council-will-try-to-buy-36686/)

[kenparry]

Ref post 1726: that is just a recipe for throwing good money after bad. As has beeb said before, Manston has had many chances to stay open but the problems of poor surface links and lack of adequate local population are insuperable.

[Charley B]

Ken Parry
Riveroak want to make Manston a CARGO hub and do aircraft dismantling etc..later maybe pax flights..MANSTON had a great record of turning around cargo flights of perishable food etc and this is what RiverOak are after..not loss making pax flights as have been the case in the past

[deedave]

Manston accounted for an average of 1.5% of UK freight volumes. The vast majority of freight is carried through the two big London airports and Manchester in non-freight dedicated a/c. The Manston situation was always precarious due to it's remote location. Freight revenues were insufficient to make the site profitable and a number of operators (MK for example) were only willing to use the site at a collossal discount. The loss of Manston has had very little impact on UK commercial aviation. Three experienced airport owners tried and failed to stem the losses. Will this real-estate company do any better?

[GHEVY]

The irrational attempt at a CPO to please voters, will take years to wind through the courts. Meanwhile there are plentiful airports present already that are established in those areas where the proponents of Manston want to be active. For example Ostend, Belgium who also want to get into aircraft recycling, Kemble which has the salvage market already, and a plethora of cargo ports (mostly not doing well) such as Maastricht, Ostend, Liege, Frankfurt Hahn, East Midlands and others. I think the truth is, is that the Manston supporters see the airport not as a goal but as a means to resist the influx from people from London, housing, etc.

[IB4138]

Kemble which has the salvage market already

You are not up to date. A huge housing estate is proposed to go where Kemble is.

[SWBKCB]

Proposed by people who don't actually own the land... :E

[GWW]

UKIP'S leader-elect for Thanet District Council, Chris Wells, has said work will start on gaining a compulsory purchase order for Manston airport in "the next seven days."
The former county councillor, who was elected to represent Cliftonville East during Ukip's landslide victory at the district election last week, said: "We have to go back through the paperwork but our election pledge was that we would start work on it in the first seven days of office and we will do that. We will be moving the CPO forward.
"There are now 51 of 56 councillors, 33 Ukip and 18 Conservatives, dedicated to getting Manston reopened."
But the majority shareholders of the Manston airport site have said the CPO is doomed to fail.
.text-links-grid .videoCube { height: 4.7em; } .text-links-grid .trc_rbox_header_span, .trc_spotlight_widget .trc_rbox_header_span { font-family: 'verb_regularbold',Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 18px; margin-left: 10px; } .text-links-grid { margin-top: 20px; width: 100%; }
Trevor Cartner and Chris Musgrave, who also run Discovery Park in Sandwich, issued a statement saying: "We are of the opinion that the advancement of a CPO process by the district council will fail.
"There is no foundation on which a CPO process can be progressed and this has more to do with politics than the interests of the public. If Thanet District Council continue they will have wasted taxpayers money on a venture they could not win.
"We will be announcing details of our full masterplan for the old Manston airport in the summer, when we will consult the public in detail. The new business park alone will bring world class buildings to the site and 4,000 jobs, which will ensure the economy grows in East Kent. In turn, this will secure the future of the next generation of employees."
Cllr Wells said there were other priorities for the new council, including cleaning up the towns' grot spots and making sure revisions are made to the Local Plan.
He said: "There is a public consultation due to take place in September and during that process we are required to respond to residents' views. It is pretty clear that people do not want 12,000 homes on greenfield sites and we want a reduction in those housing numbers. The infrastructure is not there to support those houses."
The father of 12 has urged residents to keep 'trust and faith' in the new councillors as they start the job in hand.
He said: "They have voted for us in very large numbers and they have trusted we will deliver on our manifesto and campaign pledges. To deliver we need that trust and faith to continue. Give us time to move forward and you will have changes in how the council is run and how it works with its residents."
Cllr Wells said the ambition was to 'have the most boring council on earth' that would concentrate on delivering services to isle residents.


Read more: Ukip leader-elect vows Manston CPO work will begin in days | Thanet Gazette (http://www.thanetgazette.co.uk/Ukip-leader-elect-vows-Manston-CPO-work-begin/story-26489070-detail/story.html#ixzz3a8El41pI)

[pottwiddler]

I think this is going to end up very ugly for the council, possibly bankruptcy.

I'm not one for pessimism but Manston has been tried before by three companies, Wiggins, Infratil and Stagecoach (tenuous), and all three companies got their hands burnt.

It they make it work, well done, pats on the back to all around but I just can't see it working. There's not much wealth in Planet Thanet to justify an airport on their doorstep.

It's a shame but the reality is what it is.

[no slots]

The reason all the above failed was they didn't diversify enough. Wiggins went down because of EUJET. Infratil didn't invest anything as they went after a lot of airports, bought then on the cheap and then couldn't afford to run them properly. Stagecoach had their own agenda!If someone ran the airport properly,invested in people and infrastructure and focussed solely on the airport with diversity, then, they could probably make it work. Airports alone do not make money. The money is made from other businesses on or connected to the airport. Forget passenger services. Get a 24 hr licence, offer freight, training, dismantling, diversion facilities etc and use the unused land for industrial and housing or whatever. Market the place properly too. It's never had good marketing. Whoever buys it will have to throw £££££££££ at it to make it work, but, if it's done well no reason why it can't work. Don't expect to make shed loads of cash, be prepared and financed for a long run and be prepared for a long term investment. Good luck!:ok:

[NorthSouth]

Get a 24 hr licenceGiven the local authority's long-standing position on night curfews and movement limits, that's a non-starter. Or is noise more acceptable when you own the airport?:rolleyes:

[pottwiddler]

Ever heard of Return of investment?

Who is prepared to sink say £50/100 million in buying the airport, the equipment and employing the required personnel, their training, clothing etc, only to find that there's no commercial or general aviation customers willing to fly from the new airport.

But if they do come, how much are you going to make after depreciation, amortisation and taxes?(EBITDA) £500k? £1m?

Wouldn't you, as a banker, put your money somewhere else, which will get a better return? A business that is already established something with a PROVEN track record?

We're not out of the financial crisis woods yet, and the banker's mood isn't bullish at the moment and they would want to see a fully costed business plan that would include what appetite there is for aviation companies to move to Manston.

Maybe before the Council carry out a CPO, they first look around at the rest of the airport industry and see what a tenuous state it is in .

[Twitcher]

Pottwiddler...
Stagecoach, in whatever form they were in when they bought it, never gave it a go at being a success. They planned to shut it the day they 'bought' it.
Secondly, the council stumps up no money, the Americans fund the whole thing.

[racedo]

I believe there was a Chinese proposal a number of years ago to develop Manston as delivery hub for all Chinese Air Freight into Europe.

[deedave]

Thanet Council recently commissioned Falcon consultancy to investigate the future viability of Manston. The report concluded 100's of millions of pounds would be needed over at least 20 years and there was no guarantee of success. The council commissioned their own officers to investigate Riveroak who found them to be an unsuitable indemnity partner for a CPO. The airport has been market tested by some extremely competent owner/operators for 15 years and has failed. The only reason this saga continues is because of the political rhetoric of ambitious local politicians. The problem is that these politicians are delaying the economic regeneration of this site by the new owners- probably by several years, and they will be called to account for this in future. The loss of Manston has had zero impact on commercial aviation and Kent's future aviation needs will be met by the London airports and by Lydd. Manston was a great location for tactical short range military operations during two European wars but is a proven failure as a 21st century commercial facility. Time to move on.

[IB4138]

Thanet Council recently commissioned Falcon consultancy to investigate the future viability of Manston. The report concluded 100's of millions of pounds would be needed over at least 20 years and there was no guarantee of success. The council commissioned their own officers to investigate Riveroak who found them to be an unsuitable indemnity partner for a CPO.
That would be the now gone, previous ruling party at Thanet Council, who would have, as long as the world is round, commissioned said report to their given specs and hoped for conclusion for the report to the consultants. That's the way with these reports. Someone has to instuct and give perimeters to consultants.

The landscape has now changed. Anything that has the previous ruling council's monica on it regarding Manston Airport will probably be in the skip, heading there for landfill or in deep storage, if rejected by the new Ukip administration..

Times have changed.

[deedave]

You seem to be suggesting corruption in the council's commissioning of the Falcon report. This is a serious accusation and could have legal implications for anybody involved in this accusation. What facts do you have to back this up?

[SWBKCB]

Anything that has the previous ruling council's monica on it regarding Manston Airport will be in the skip or heading there for landfill.

which could be described as chucking good money after bad - given the previous record of Manston and the position of similar airports in the UK, any re-opening of the airport has to be a "brave" commercial decision and it needs to be considered if it's appropriate to involve public money.

[IB4138]

deedave
Your last post shows a total lack of understanding. I have made no such suggestions. You clearly have a lack of knowledge and I am trying to educate you, so you never make such an accusation again.

For any report, in any field, to be commissioned from a firm of consultants, the party requiring the report has to instruct them with clear instructions as to what they are to report on, with stated parameters and the purpose of the report (ie hoped for outcome).

[deedave]

No.

Before you edited your post it carried an implication that the previous administration might have gerrymandered the commissioning of the report to produce a "hoped-for" outcome- ie a negative report about Manston.

It is a matter of public record that all Thanet council have done everything possible to support Manston. It is only now that it has become clear that they have reached the end of the line.

The actions being proposed now go beyond what is reasonable both in terms of the health of the local economy and the aviation requirements of Kent

[DrBeauWebber]

Well it has taken a year, but finally the CPO for Manston is at last on its way :
Proposed by new TDC Council Leader Chris Wells,
"For Council to recommend that Cabinet review its position on
Manston Airport, taking into account any relevant changes in
circumstances since 2014."
Passed with none against and just 4 abstentions from the old Labour guard.
It took us a very hard year, but pat your selves on the back, guys of the Save Manston Airport association.
We wait for RiverOak to do their bit next, then we have the Cabinet to make their decision on the 18th June.
Bring it ON !!!
https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/10501905_10152961908107695_2892983134516670272_n.jpg?oh=3806 7431629df7a8d7ef1af091dfaa19&oe=55CAE8F6

[asdf1234]

Well it has taken a year, but finally the CPO for Manston is at last on its way :
Proposed by new TDC Council Leader Chris Wells,
"For Council to recommend that Cabinet review its position on
Manston Airport, taking into account any relevant changes in
circumstances since 2014."
Passed with none against and just 4 abstentions from the old Labour guard.
It took us a very hard year, but pat your selves on the back, guys of the Save Manston Airport association.
We wait for RiverOak to do their bit next, then we have the Cabinet to make their decision on the 18th June.
Bring it ON !!!
https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/10501905_10152961908107695_2892983134516670272_n.jpg?oh=3806 7431629df7a8d7ef1af091dfaa19&oe=55CAE8F6

Well done. Fantastic facility and given the right business plan it will do well. Ignore the naysayers, the capacity issues in the South East will see freight move to Manston as the London airports look to increase pax throughput.

The trouble with this forum is that too many post from an uninformed position.

[pottwiddler]

From us Naysayers, who are informed, having worked at Manston, you're all barking!:ugh:

As long as it's not taxpayers money crack on. And if you want to lose more money just give me a couple of million, I'll put it to some good use.

[Andy_S]

Ignore the naysayers.......

The trouble is the naysayers have been calling it right for as long as I can remember....

......the capacity issues in the South East will see freight move to Manston as the London airports look to increase pax throughput.

People have been making this claim about Manston as long as I can remember, and it's no more true now than it was then. Have you seen the well established storage and logistics industry which has sprung up around Heathrow? It would be difficult and expensive to replicate the facilities at MSE.

The trouble with this forum is that too many post from an uninformed position.

I've only been following the fortunes of Manston for about 20 years, so obviously I'm one of the uninformed. Perhaps you could explain to me how, since 99% of freight at Heathrow and Gatwick arrives in the cargo holds of passenger aircraft, exactly how passengers and freight are to be separated in a manner which allows freight to move to Manston?

[asdf1234]

The trouble is the naysayers have been calling it right for as long as I can remember....



People have been making this claim about Manston as long as I can remember, and it's no more true now than it was then. Have you seen the well established storage and logistics industry which has sprung up around Heathrow? It would be difficult and expensive to replicate the facilities at MSE.



I've only been following the fortunes of Manston for about 20 years, so obviously I'm one of the uninformed. Perhaps you could explain to me how, since 99% of freight at Heathrow and Gatwick arrives in the cargo holds of passenger aircraft, exactly how passengers and freight are to be separated in a manner which allows freight to move to Manston?

And 1% of the South East's non-below deck cargo throughput is? How much does Manston need of that market to be profitable on a cargo only basis? How long does it take to get a perishable load from the aircraft (wheels on ground) onto a truck (doors closed, departing) at Heathrow compared to Manston?

Running an airport at a profit requires granular knowledge of the operation on a financial and technical level; most of the posters on here don't have that knowledge.

If you know the answers to the questions above you will know that cargo operations at Manston can be profitable.

[kcockayne]

The fact remains, the airport has been closed !
That, in itself speaks volumes; in fact, everything that there is to say !

[SWBKCB]

And 1% of the South East's non-below deck cargo throughput is? How much does Manston need of that market to be profitable on a cargo only basis?

So the trend of the air freight business over the last ten years is going to be reversed? Look at the size of the whole freight fleet, look at the decline in conversions, look at the decline in the perishables market - something you want to base a business case on?