MANSTON -3

[Harry Wayfarers]

So how pray, are you in a position to comment from your little island near Manila?

Perhaps it is you embarasing yourself with your posts. Unless you are another of the minority who has a personal axe to grind with those trying to get the airfield reopened.

IB4138,

I have no axe to grind regarding Manston, indeed I have a soft spot for the place, from my living in Kent to my days in the RAF to my days putting DC8F's in there for maintenance thru to my day trips to Ramsgate when I lived/worked in Ostend.

But I don't have "STUPID" written across my forehead, these people, with the doc as their spokesperson here on PPRuNe, knowing that everything else that has been tried has failed now claim Manston's future, lifeline, is as a dedicated freight airport and the most recent discussions, posts, here had been that Manston's runway simply isn't long enough for what they are proposing.

Now should you wish to take up this argument, that of course the runway is long enough "We've had A380's and B747F's in there previously", then before you start arguing go and grab yourself some B747 and B777 performance tables and go figure how much runway either of them need to depart at MTOW (maximum take off weight).

Then please get back to me with your findings.

[01475]

You're being very negative.

There's no reason to suppose Manston couldn't be very successful on the back of freight operators bringing in empty 747s. No other airport in the UK specialises in this untapped market.

And on top of that there would likely be a double daily Amsterdam service.

And the fire training. Never forget the fire training.

[deedave]

Infratil had Manston up for sale as an operational airport for a very long time at a modest market price. Nobody wanted it. Riveroak didn't come forward. Edi Truell didn't come forward. The new "mystery investor" didn't come forward. In the end Ann Gloag took it off their hands for £1. Now we have these three investors sniffing around to try and get a compulsory purchase of the "airport". What has changed? Why simple- it's not an airport any more and therefore worth a great deal of money after business/residential development. Are any of these investors showing interest in acquiring any actual operational airports elsewhere? I think we all know what's going on!

[IB4138]

Well, that's flushed out the bully boys, seeing an opertunity to attempt ridicule, commenting without much recent local knowledge or having been at Manston recently, if ever, on the present situation. At least I am there every three months or so. davedee does at least say he is in Thanet, although he still has a personal fight and will not disclose his reason, despite many requests.

You don't have to have technical knowledge to have been involved in the aviation industry. There are other areas.

You are also entitled to have a second career, especially when your first was curtailed on medical grounds.

[Tagron]

Harry Wayfarers

Now should you wish to take up this argument, that of course the runway is long enough "We've had A380's and B747F's in there previously", then before you start arguing go and grab yourself some B747 and B777 performance tables and go figure how much runway either of them need to depart at MTOW (maximum take off weight).

(end of quote)


The inability to depart at MTOW is not of itself a bar to successful commercial operations. All over the world aircraft (passenger or cargo) operate from runways where MTOW cannot be achieved. In the case of a limiting runway the essential calculations are:

What is the performance limited RTOW ? With maximum payload what is the weight available for fuel, hence what is the maximum range achievable ?
OR
With fuel for the longest anticipated sector, what payload can be carried ?
In both cases is the need for a nonstop flight essential?. Is a tech stop feasible, even an attractive option ?

It then becomes a commercial decision for each company as to whether it can operate profitably within those constraints. Those posters who have pointed to the previous operation of 747 cargo flights through Manston are perfectly correct to do so. As I understand it these were regular flights not one-off charters and they only ceased using Manston when its closure became inevitable.

For the record I am not expressing a view as to likely success of a reopened MSE.

[Harry Wayfarers]

You're being very negative.

There's no reason to suppose Manston couldn't be very successful on the back of freight operators bringing in empty 747s. No other airport in the UK specialises in this untapped market.

And on top of that there would likely be a double daily Amsterdam service.

And the fire training. Never forget the fire training.

LOL ... Just two questions:

1. Just how are these operators supposed to make any money if they are flying empty B747's around without any revenue load, and:

2. Why is such a market for flying empty B747's around untapped?

[Harry Wayfarers]

Harry Wayfarers

Now should you wish to take up this argument, that of course the runway is long enough "We've had A380's and B747F's in there previously", then before you start arguing go and grab yourself some B747 and B777 performance tables and go figure how much runway either of them need to depart at MTOW (maximum take off weight).

The inability to depart at MTOW is not of itself a bar to successful commercial operations. All over the world aircraft (passenger or cargo) operate from runways where MTOW cannot be achieved. In the case of a limiting runway the essential calculations are:

What is the performance limited RTOW ? With maximum payload what is the weight available for fuel, hence what is the maximum range achievable ?
OR
With fuel for the longest anticipated sector, what payload can be carried ?
In both cases is the need for a nonstop flight essential?. Is a tech stop feasible, even an attractive option ?

It then becomes a commercial decision for each company as to whether it can operate profitably within those constraints. Those posters who have pointed to the previous operation of 747 cargo flights through Manston are perfectly correct to do so. As I understand it these were regular flights not one-off charters and they only ceased using Manston when its closure became inevitable.

For the record I am not expressing a view as to likely success of a reopened MSE.

Tagrom,

Are you aware of the minimal profit margins in the dog eat dog air freight business and how "Every kilo counts"?

Cast your mind back to the B747F crash in Bishkek a few months back, the aircraft was en-route HKG/IST, a walk in the park for a B747-400, except that being a freighter it was so damn heavy out of HKG they couldn't get enough fuel on to make it direct to IST thus it was tech stopping for fuel in Bishkek ... "Every kilo counts"!

[deedave]

Harry. I can't speak for 01475 but I think you may have missed the point of their post. Manston has cornered the niche market of mostly empty aircraft over a number of years now. We are told the Amsterdam flights were a long way from being anything like full, and I can personally vouch for the large number of EUjet flights carrying fewer than 10 people. We are all familiar with nouvelle cuisine- a small amount of food on a big plate. Manston could tap into the market for "Nouvelle Aviation".

[deedave]

(Yes I think 01475 was joking)

[asdf1234]

LOL ... Just two questions:

1. Just how are these operators supposed to make any money if they are flying empty B747's around without any revenue load, and:

2. Why is such a market for flying empty B747's around untapped?

I watch this thread with amusement because so many people post without knowing the facts about Manston.

Manston averaged circa 25,000 tonnes of cargo per annum, was 8th largest airport in the UK for total freight handled and was 5th largest for freighter dedicated cargo (i.e. not under floor cargo).

CargoLux served the airport with their fleet of 747's as did others and they weren't put off by the runway length.

Inbound freight was the biggest business, especially fresh produce.

3 large warehouses, one dedicated exclusively to refrigerated produce (100 tonnes could be kept refrigerated at anyone time). Equine Border Post was state of the art.

No night time flying then. However just before the airport sold night time flying was about to be approved. With night time flying and the London markets crying out for fresh produce early in the morning, coupled with a 10 minute "landing to first truck on the road" time, there can be a future for Manston in freight operations.

Sometimes people overlook the facts.

[deedave]

Manston may have been 5th/8th largest airport for freight, but if memory serves the last time I checked CAA stats this translated to approx 1% of UK freight yield. Not much. The Equine border post was widely publicised some years ago but remained virtually unused according to recent reports.

[Andy_S]

With night time flying and the London markets crying out for fresh produce early in the morning....

And yet London still manages to get it’s fresh produce without Manston. Where’s it coming from?

Sometimes people overlook the facts.

I think the most fundamental fact is that no one has ever made any money out of running the place as an airport……..

[SWBKCB]

And yet London still manages to get it’s fresh produce without Manston

and the trend to use air freight for exotic fresh produce is a declining one.

[Harry Wayfarers]

Harry. I can't speak for 01475 but I think you may have missed the point of their post. Manston has cornered the niche market of mostly empty aircraft over a number of years now. We are told the Amsterdam flights were a long way from being anything like full, and I can personally vouch for the large number of EUjet flights carrying fewer than 10 people. We are all familiar with nouvelle cuisine- a small amount of food on a big plate. Manston could tap into the market for "Nouvelle Aviation".

Deedave,

Regarding AMS I'll speak in Manston's favour regarding that one ... In this day and age and particularly on this forum people only think LCC type point to point traffic whereas the mentality is often that those Manston passengers were only travelling to/from AMS at perhaps something like GBP100 round trip.

But the truth is that those passengers were travelling to/from much further afield than AMS and paying perhaps an average several hundreds of GBP's per round trip so whilst people may mock the loads of whatever, 30 or 40%, but a 30 or 40% KLM load probably generates more revenue than a 90% LCC load.

Previously I put empty freighters in to Manston, they went there for maintenance with Jet Support but as I understand it at the time Manston closed there was no heavy jet maintenance provider whilst the future proposal is freight, not maintenance.

[01475]

Apologies; I was confusingly obtuse and sarcastic at the same time!

I'd love all the airports to succeed. But fate stepped on Manston's toe and walked off.

I wasn't of course suggesting that maintenance, part loaded freighters, AMS flights or Very Important And Significant Fire Training make an airport.

Re the AMS flights, the loadings clearly weren't a problem to KLM as KLM were upset they had to stop. But then just about any airport with a non-grass runway can support flights to AMS... But they are a problem to the airport, as they indicate that this is how many people a day want to fly from Manston to far more than just AMS.

If I were to try to be positive and see a future then clearly it would not be to try to recreate a part of what the airport was before, which already hasn't worked. And I can't see an alternative when the SE already has so many other airports.

Sadly this airport is probably less needed than Ciudad Real's.

[racedo]

Manston as an airport is dead, flogging the dead horse is not going to make it live.

[IB4138]

For you who are not aware, some aviation is still taking place at Manston with Polar Helicopters still operating.

Ask youselves this, as many local people are:
Where are these businesses going to come from for the industrial units if they are ever built? There are hardly any locally showing interest. Is there a queue of would be companies looking to sign up? I think not.
Similarly where are the occupants for the proposed houses to come from? Workers in the yet to be new business park? More communters to/from London? Sure there is a train that can wisk people to/from the Capital in just over an hour, but is there any room on the rails/stock to expand these services and other required infrastructure, schools, health care units etc?
What is obvious there are the solar panels in fields which used to grow crops, with sheep grazing around them, keeping the weeds down. There isn't much employment in that, but its fairly new and forward thinking in producing lamb as a bi-product of electricity production. Also the massive produce growing houses being errected, where conditions are controlled to maximise product/yield. Not much employment there either. Add the Tattinger investment in new vinyards, ( practically same soil and conditions as in France to grow grapes for fizz) again maintained under modern controlled/covered conditions and that is about it.

Perhaps Manston's fate is to become a massive temperature controlled sea of growing houses for fruit and veg (some not native to Britain and presently imported) to feed not only the UK's requirements, but export to Europe and other parts of the World as well.

[SWBKCB]

Perhaps Manston's fate is to become a massive temperature controlled sea of growing houses for fruit and veg (some not native to Britain and presently imported)

Let's put it this way - the supermarkets are putting money into these sorts of ventures and are very keen to reduce their dependance on air freight. And in the food industry, what the supermarkets want....

[DrBeauWebber]

A Manston Airport Forecast, compiled by the Save Manston Airport association, from RiverOak Report Volume 3 by Dr. Dixon.

Dr. Dixon's report may be seen at :
https://static.secure.website/wscfus/10240501/5581847/manston-airport-a-national-and-regional-aviation-asset-volume-iii-the-forecast-2017.pdf

For those that would rather read a precis :

The figures in Dr. Dixon’s forecast for Manston Airport have not just been plucked from the air, but have been derived from over a year’s worth of data collection and detailed analysis. See Volumes 1 & 2 for more details.

https://static.secure.website/wscfus/10240501/5581843/manston-airport-a-national-and-regional-aviation-asset-volume-i-demand-in-the-south-east-of-the-uk-2017.pdf

https://static.secure.website/wscfus/10240501/5581846/manston-airport-a-national-and-regional-aviation-asset-volume-ii-a-qualitative-study-of-regional-demand-2017.pdf

The air freight forecasting method that Dr. Dixon has used is based on the following methods :

The collection and analysis of this data is described in Volume II of this series of reports and consisted of face-to-face interviews with representatives from key stakeholder groups including Kent transport infrastructure, Government and public sector, industry associations, freight forwarders and consolidators, local businesses who import/export, and cargo airlines.

Other data was used to provide an overview of the industry, which allowed the primary data to be put into a global and national context ….. [and] to project growth from the short- and medium-term market data forecasts.
“… freighters are expected to continue carrying more than half of global air cargo traffic ….” (Boeing, 2014)

In addition, the qualitative findings indicated several issues that present opportunities for Manston Airport. These include the [lack of] sufficiency of slots at South East airports, bumping of freight from passenger aircraft, security issues particularly with outsized cargo speed of turnaround and bottlenecks for air freight a particular concern due to, “longer processing time because of security” (ACI-NA, 2013, p. 5), and review of current regulatory controls on the charges and services Heathrow offers to airlines, due to expire at the end of 2018.

The passenger forecasting method used by Dr. Sally Dixon were as follows :
Interviews were carried out to establish the potential markets for the airport, which include: Resumption of scheduled service twice daily to a hub airport, a [low cost carrier] base for two aircraft at Manston rising to three, the charter market resuming, stimulated by regional developments such as the Paramount theme park and Ebbsfleet Garden City development, which are expected to increase demand for both in- and outbound flights, and flights from the US that tie up with cruise ships leaving from Dover.

It should be noted that the key next steps, in calculating the expected number of freight movements and tonnage forecasts, involve detailed considerations over the predicted plane types (ICAO design code) , and similarly for passenger forecasts by year and by ICAO design code.
A key point is that to enable these increased freight and passenger movements both additional plane parking stands (from the current ~2) and other infrastructure upgrades are required : freight operations commence in year 2 with 7 freight plane parking stands, and there are expected to be 13 by year 5, with 19 by year 20. Passenger operations will commence in year 3 with 3 stands, with another added in year 15.

The key forecast figures, to be carried over into the detailed jobs calculations in Volume 4, are as follows :
Table 1 Summary 20 year freight and passenger forecast - extracting just Years 5, 10, 20 :

http://www.savemanstonairport.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Table-1-Y51020.png

[Harry Wayfarers]

So Doc,

Noting that Sally has supposedly communicated with cargo airlines and noting her very detailed analysis predicting 340,000 metric tons of cargo by year 20, without the time nor enthusiasm to read thru tens or hundreds of pages of gumph, can you explain which UK airport(s) these cargo airlines are utilising at the moment to fly their thousands of metric tons of cargo thru?

[Council Van]

The 20 year forcast for freight is greater than the current amount through East Midlands, the main UK hub for DHL, UPS and the Post Office.

[Harry Wayfarers]

The 20 year forcast for freight is greater than the current amount through East Midlands, the main UK hub for DHL, UPS and the Post Office.

But how many "Cargo Airlines", with dedicated freighters, are currently operating thru UK and with what frequency of service?

[DrBeauWebber]

can you explain which UK airport(s) these cargo airlines are utilising at the moment
When one reads the 3 reports it is clear that the whole point is that this cargo is currently NOT going through UK airports, due to lack of capacity in the South East, but is going via Continental airports, and is being trucked across the channel.

[Harry Wayfarers]

When one reads the 3 reports it is clear that the whole point is that this cargo is currently NOT going through UK airports, due to lack of capacity in the South East, but is going via Continental airports, and is being trucked across the channel.

Airports such as Stansted, Bournemouth, Exeter, Birmingham, Coventry, East Midlands, Norwich, Tees-Side, Leeds, Doncaster etc. etc. etc. have plenty of capacity.

The truth is that quite literally every British cargo airline that has tried to make money has gone bankrupt, go on Doc, take a wild guess how many freighters 'British Airways World Cargo' own and operate?

[paully]

They all overlook, or probably not aware, that much of the freight from Manchester airport cargo terminal is trucked to, amongst other places, the south east airport of Stansted. Its also probably cheaper to truck it from the near continent than fly it direct. Logistics is a complex business and freight doesnt care where it goes from and to..

[deedave]

These forecasts should be considered on the context of other forecasts that Mr Freudmann has paid people to provide since 1999 when he was CEO of Wiggins/Planestation. They were similarly optimistic and unrealistic and remained unrealised. These were provided at various meetings and through press releases. I think I may still have records of some of these forecasts in the attic. Worth a look.

[deedave]

Question- I recently attended a briefing at which it was explained that one of the reasons for Manston's lack of potential as a freight operation is that bellyhold cargo via the established UK airports is considerably cheaper than dedicated freight carriage- which is all Manston can offer. Does anyone have specific information regarding this?

[Heathrow Harry]

How much money will Dr Dixon put on the table to back her forecast?

[Harry Wayfarers]

By Year 5 some 1,880 passengers per day, that would be the equivalent of some 19 Fokker 100's full every day.

Has Doc Dixon ever heard of an outfit called EUJet who went bankrupt trying to fill significantly less than 19 Fokker's a day?

But Doc Dixon bases her stats upon an average of 135.59873 passengers per movement, that by year 10 have increased to 144.4464 and by year 20 151.40385 passengers per movement, so her sights are set upon larger aircraft than the Fokker ... Best let KLM know so they may get their act together :)

[Andy_S]

From Volume 1:

"The airport would provide almost immediate relief to the pressing situation that is causing £2bn in potential trade to be lost to the South East each year we remain without additional runway capacity"

This implies that airlines that can't get into Heathrow, Gatwick or other London airports due to lack of runway capacity would switch to Manston in a heartbeat if it were re-opened.

The reality is that Manston was available previously, and airlines simply ignored it. It's been proven to be an entirely false assumption that airlines will happily use any airport as long as it's in the South East. If they can't get into LHR, LGW or to a lesser extent STN or LTN then they probably won't bother.

[Harry Wayfarers]

"Banging Head" & "Brick Wall" spring to mind.

How much did these clowns pay Azimuth Associates for such a load of spiel because I'll provide them with even better spiel than that if they pay me for it!

lack of capacity at south east airportsSTN has capacity available, they're developing additional capacity at LTN to be available next year, SEN is crying out for business, LHR's additional runway whilst they're talking of additional runways at STN & LGW such airports as BHX & BOH are well placed to assist the south east, whilst the Doc believes that cargo travels in bellies because of no capacity.

If the south east was/is so strangled, as these muppets try to have us believe, then why have such airfields as Hatfield, Greenham Common, Upper Heyford, Wethersfield and, indeed, Manston closed whilst other airports such as Cambridge, Oxford and Shoreham tried for passenger services and failed miserably?

[AirportPlanner1]

Manston could be a successful regional airport with a modest freight operation as they've handled in the recent past, something along the lines of 2/3 x daily to AMS with KLM on a small jet, 1x daily to DUB with EIR and Thomson doing a couple of flights a week to Palma/Ibiza/Tenerife plus training, maintenance and GA. The problem is the returns from that sort of activity wouldn't justify the costs associated with purchasing the site and getting it up and running again.

[DrBeauWebber]

RiverOak Strategic Partners’ plans for Manston set to create almost 30,000 jobs in Thanet and the surrounding area.
Even in first year of operation almost 6,000 people will find employment as a result of Manston’s revival.

Under RiverOak Strategic Partners’ plans to reopen Manston Airport, as an air freight hub with passenger services and business aviation, more than 4,200 people would be employed directly at the airport site by its twentieth year of operation, with a further 26,000 jobs created in the wider economy.
The figures have been revealed as the final report in a four volume set, entitled Manston Airport: a regional and national asset, is published, considering the socio-economic impact of reopening the airport.
The four reports were commissioned by RiverOak Strategic Partners, from respected aviation academic Dr Sally Dixon of Azimuth Associates and include detailed business modelling, interviews with airlines, freight forwarders and integrators, together with analysis of the pent-up demand for air freight, which is currently costing the UK economy more than £2 Billion in lost income.
Dr Dixon’s reports show that air freight is increasingly being bumped from busy passenger aircraft, causing delays as goods bound to or from UK businesses and consumers have to be flown into and out of northern European airports and trucked across the Channel. In comparison to its congested neighbours in the South-East, Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted, Manston Airport represents an ideal opportunity to deliver runway capacity to meet this pent-up demand – and, in doing so, thousands of jobs will be created for Thanet and the wider Kent region.
George Yerrall, director of RiverOak Strategic Partners, said: “From the date that the airport reopens, almost 6,000 jobs would be created - around 850 jobs on the airport site itself and a further 5,000 indirect and catalytic jobs in the wider economy, in associated industries or businesses.
“The positive economic impact grows each year along with the airport. We have forecast up until the twentieth year of operation, by which time 30,000 people in Thanet and East Kent would be able to trace their job to the revival of the airport.
“We have a real opportunity to tap into a proven demand for air freight that other South-East airports simply can’t meet. The £2 billion lost to the UK economy each year is set to almost double by 2050, even with an additional runway at Heathrow. Manston Airport is ideally placed to help recapture this traffic, which is being displaced to northern Europe. In meeting this demand, we create huge employment potential for Thanet and provide a powerful economic boost for the nation.
“We are in the process of discussing with local colleges and businesses how best to maximize career and supply chain opportunities in Manston.”
Employment at the airport would be a mix of role types, including:
• Freight services
• Passenger services
• Rescue and Fire Fighting Services
• Airport operations
• Maintenance
• Site and freight security
• Administration
• Air Traffic Services
Dr Dixon is an academic attached to Cranfield University. She is a specialist in stakeholder involvement with major airport infrastructure, lecturing on stakeholder influences on airport master planning to Cranfield MSc students. Dr Dixon holds a PhD from Cranfield and an MBA from Kent University and is a member of the Royal Aeronautical Society.
She adds: “Thanet District Council’s economic development plan is ambitious. The council is starting from a challenging situation, given that local employment, productivity and wages are generally lower than in other parts of Kent. My research evidences that a vibrant air freight hub at Manston will be vitally important in stimulating thousands of high quality jobs at the airport and in the local area, helping the council to deliver an economic output that puts Thanet on a par with rest of Kent.”
RiverOak Strategic Partners is preparing for the next stage of consultation on proposals to reopen Manston Airport. The consultation is now expected to start in June, after the General Election. Full details of how local people across East Kent can participate in the consultation will be published shortly.
The Report IV :
https://static.secure.website/wscfus/10240501/5744273/manston-airport-a-national-and-regional-aviation-asset-volume-iv-the-social-and-economic-impacts-of-airport-operations.pdf

[01475]

Pent up demand? Seriously?

[Andy_S]

Pent up demand?

These were exactly the words used by Wiggins when they ran the place.

It turned out to be untrue then, and it's untrue now.

[deedave]

This is a joke. Even the Manston faithful on their social media sites aren't gullible enough to believe it. Sorry Dr Webber but you've got no chance of convincing the professionals who frequent PPRune.

[willy wombat]

Surely it is time to accept that, sadly, Manston is an ex parrot.

[kcockayne]

You have got to be kidding ! These sort of forecasts, provided by " eminent consultants" , are designed to tell the company that commissioned them exactly what they wish to hear , & display to the relevant authorities & the public ie to fool them. I well remember the BAA (who were commissioned by the States of Jersey to prepare a report which supported the incorporation of the airport) forecasting 6 million pax per year for Jersey Airport. This was in 1994, when the annual total was c2 million. Since then, the total annual pax have dropped to one & a half million.
Don't be fooled. This is total nonsense !

[AirsideOps787]

As much as my heart would like to see Manston re-open, can some of us take a small dose of reality here please? I'm sure Dr Dixon is very good at what she does, but looking at her profile she's written a lot about aviation, but her profile doesn't show any actual operational knowledge or experience. In fact, Azimuth shows that her experience is 'airport related projects'. Whatever that means?

“We are in the process of discussing with local colleges and businesses how best to maximize career and supply chain opportunities in Manston.”

Really? Tell me, how many PSAs does it take to passengers on your supposed freight focused airport? Are there that many ATCOs, Fire Fighters and Operations personnel who are qualified in the Thanet area ready to fill those roles? Clearly a massive jobs creator there.

Even if you were successful, you actually need people with management experience and knowledge to run the damn place! The CAA would expect those appointed into safety critical roles e.g. Accountable Manager, Safety Manager, Compliance Manager, Manager ATS, Manager RFFS to be competent. And you don't go to a local college for that!

Can you honestly seen experienced professionals jumping at the chance to work at an airport which has a worse financial record than most third world nations? An airport that is going to be losing money hand over fist from the moment it opens, with the hope of an airline or two taking the risk of operating from there. Given that one of the worlds most respected airlines has already said it won't be back?

I know were my C.V. is going to be. In my desk.

[Harry Wayfarers]

LOL ... 850 airport jobs if/when Manston re-opens.

How many personnel were employed at Manston when it closed?

[deedave]

144 part-timers

[paully]

Nobody wants the airport, they all want the land its sat on..The various parties involved are just coming at it from different angles, that`s all.

[Harry Wayfarers]

Nobody wants the airport, they all want the land its sat onTo anyone, other than a doctor it seems, that appears to be oh do true, indeed so obvious.

Just take a few other ex military airfields around, who would ever have imagined Lasham to remain successful after all these years, just look at what they've achieved at Kemble, the owners of Kemble have tried for something similar at Llanbedr but alas, Dunsfold have achieved what seems to be a profitable business, Church Fenton is trying to make a go of things and none of these, well perhaps Kemble being in a particularly beautiful part of the country, have location in their favour.

They're making their money from flying club activities, from aircraft recycling, aircraft parking/storage, maintenance, film shoots etc. and not one of them from cargo movements.

This Dixon character, as the other doc posted, has forecast freight and passenger movements up to some 25 years in advance but she hasn't forecast any general aviation movements or any aircraft parking/storage revenue whilst she simply doesn't realise that Manston's runway isn't long enough for heavy freighters.

She can waffle away at Cranfield as much as she likes, she can be a member of the Royal Aeronautical Society, I'm sure these look great on her CV, but how many general aviation owners/pilots did she talk with, did she enquire of any of the big boys regarding developing an out of town maintenance facility at Manson as CWL did with BA, how many heavy freighter loadsheets has she prepared, does she know the first damn thing about runway performance etc. etc. etc?

Ex military airfields without location in their favour can make for a viable business but they need to multi-task because it's very hard to make money in aviation.

But then these people aren't interested in making money in aviation ... They just want the real estate!

[kcockayne]

I will say it again; these people only say what the people who commission them want them to say. End of story.

[TCAS FAN]

Harry Wayfarers

Dunsfold may operate profitably, but its not because of aviation. Any profit is generated by hiring out the runway for non aviation activity to the likes of Top Gear, Mc Claren etc and renting out old hangars to non aviation businesses.

If the owners could get planning consent for housing, which they have tried many times to do, they'd shut the airfield down overnight.

Again its the case of not the airfield, but the land its sat on.

[Harry Wayfarers]

Harry Wayfarers

Dunsfold may operate profitably, but its not because of aviation. Any profit is generated by hiring out the runway for non aviation activity to the likes of Top Gear, Mc Claren etc and renting out old hangars to non aviation businesses.

If the owners could get planning consent for housing, which they have tried many times to do, they'd shut the airfield down overnight.

Again its the case of not the airfield, but the land its sat on.

They're making their money from flying club activities, from aircraft recycling, aircraft parking/storage, maintenance, film shoots etc. and not one of them from cargo movements.

Did I not make the point clear enough?

[FlyboyUK]

Re: Dunsfold, the housing has now been approved on the site

[paully]

As in the fullness of time, it will also at Manston

[Heathrow Harry]

It'll be sad day TBH - we'll have to find another lunatic thread to cheer us up on a wet day.......

Leeds East perhaps......................

[DrBeauWebber]

Videos of Sir Roger Gale and Craig Mackinley (both standing again for parliament), and Tony Freudmann, Director of RiverOak, all talking about Manston Airport.

2017-05-14 - Sir Roger Gale - Arrows BBQ - P1040174
https://youtu.be/oJVi92OMhsc
2017-05-14 - Tony Freudmann - Arrows BBQ - P1040172
https://youtu.be/H9yxURWU3Y0
2017-05-14 - TF Q&A - Craig Mackinlay - Arrows BBQ - P1040173
https://youtu.be/0e6H5hN9Huo

[runway30]

I just thought I would post this from the Dr's LinkedIn profile. Just because you have a PhD from Canfield doesn't automatically make you an expert on airports.

'The focus of her ground breaking doctoral research at Cranfield was on stakeholder involvement in decision-making. Sally is a leader in the field of stakeholder consultation on major infrastructure projects and has a track record for delivering workable, innovative solutions to the issues faced by organisations today.'

[paully]

Videos of Sir Roger Gale and Craig Mackinley (both standing again for parliament), and Tony Freudmann, Director of RiverOak, all talking about Manston Airport.

2017-05-14 - Sir Roger Gale - Arrows BBQ - P1040174
https://youtu.be/oJVi92OMhsc
2017-05-14 - Tony Freudmann - Arrows BBQ - P1040172
https://youtu.be/H9yxURWU3Y0
2017-05-14 - TF Q&A - Craig Mackinlay - Arrows BBQ - P1040173
https://youtu.be/0e6H5hN9Huo


I`m just amazed that you can be taken in by 2 `snake oil salesmen` and a struck off solicitor :D

WTF ? Who?s Tony Freudmann? ? Herne Bay Matters (http://hbm2015.com/wtf-whos-tony-freudmann/)

[Buster the Bear]

RiverOak announces dates for seven public consultation events in bid to re-open Manston airport - Business - Kent News (http://www.kentnews.co.uk/business/riveroak-announces-dates-for-seven-public-consultation-events-in-bid-to-re-open-manston-airport-1-5035954)

[Harry Wayfarers]

Videos of Sir Roger Gale and Craig Mackinley (both standing again for parliament), and Tony Freudmann, Director of RiverOak, all talking about Manston Airport.

Manston isn't an airport and hasn't been for the past few years

[Heathrow Harry]

That Herne Bay Matters link is hysterical ! What a bunch of shysters !

[Harry Wayfarers]

Tony Freudmann



Was a solicitor until he was struck off (http://hbm2015.com/nnf/library/law/tony-freudmann-struck-off-solicitors-roll-for-27-counts-of-misappropriation-of-client-funds/).
Recently appointed as an MD at RiverOak and their only Director with any experience of running an airport
Responsible for airport acquisition strategy at Wiggins. MD at Manston when its owner went into administration. All the airports acquired for Wiggins by Mr Freudmann were former military bases with “ample availability of surrounding land which can be developed using the real estate experience of Wiggins.” All the airports acquired by Mr Freudmann failed, either as a result of breach of contract, voluntary liquidation, non-payment of rent and/or heavy losses. One of these was Lahr Airport in Germany – more of that airport anon
Having been “let go” by Wiggins, he bought up a number of travel companies. Under his ownership, they went to the wall. Also tried to establish a new route from Manston to Norfolk, Virginia. Secured public funding for the flights. Not one flight took off and the public investment was lost completely
As a representative of Integeral, in June 2012 approaches the new owners of Lahr Airport with a business plan to make a commercial success of the airport focussing on freight, teardown, and being the base for a new West African airline (sound familiar?). A few months later, the wage bill for workers at Lahr ceases to be paid
In 2013, introduced Ann Gloag to the opportunity to purchase Manston Airport and Prestwick Airport. He then tried to buy Manston Airport himself from Ms Gloag. In anticipation of getting hold of the land, Mr Freudmann asks Thanet District Council if they will approve planning permission on the Northern Grass for 1,000 houses.



Come on Doc, I've got a beer resting on this that you're going to attempt to bullsh1t your way out of this one so please don't disappoint!

[01475]

So the man took money that wasn't his while in a position of trust.

What could possibly go wrong?

[Heathrow Harry]

cleary fit to run any airport............................. or a Premier League Football Club......

[Harry Wayfarers]

http://images.crystalscomments.com/6/6743.jpg

[DrBeauWebber]

2017-06-02 - Manston s48 notice - Times

http://www.savemanstonairport.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/2017-06-02-Manston-s48-notice-Times.jpg

[Heathrow Harry]

downloads available from 12th June @ RSP - Home (http://www.rsp.co.uk)

should make interesting reading..................

[Harry Wayfarers]

Thanks Doc,

I had been wondering about THE BATTLE OF BRITAIN THANKSGIVING SERVICE and now you have informed us nicely, kind of a shame you can't make a blog of it.

[01475]

I wonder how long it'll take Riveroak to move a bit to the left into the liquidations column.

[Jetscream 32]

priceless comment !

[SWBKCB]

Updates on "Riveroak" owenership

Welcome to Morningstar Asia ? Other Asia (http://www.oap.morningstar.com/ap/PRNewswire/Default.aspx?rkey=20170324EN45225&filter=3104)

The new operating company which is not affiliated with RiverOak Investment Corp., LLC, is fully resourced and funded to accommodate all costs arising from the Development Consent Order application to acquire and reinstate Manston as a fully operational airport and will be operated, owned and managed completely independently of RiverOak Investment Corp., LLC. Directors of RiverOak Strategic Partners Limited are Niall Lawlor, Tony Freudmann, George Yerrall, Nick Rothwell, Rico Seitz and Gerard Heusler. Messrs. Lawlor, Freudmann and Yerrall have assumed day-today operational control of the project.

And some views from the other side of the arguement

Stone Hill Park (http://www.stonehillpark.co.uk/rsp-urged-to-come-clean-with-the-public-in-access-discussions)

Stone Hill Park (http://www.stonehillpark.co.uk/rsp-report-reveals-true-extent-of-night-flights)

[Heathrow Harry]

ahhhh - Belize owned eh? Now it starts to get interesting.......................

[Barling Magna]

1.4 million passengers a year by 2040 eh? Hmmm....

[paully]

The Doc is even funnier..Not only does he hang around and quote struck off solicitors, one of his MP chums/supporters has just been charged with a criminal offence by the Police...
:South Thanet Tory candidate Craig Mackinlay charged over expenses - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-40129826)

This thread is the gift that keeps on giving :rolleyes:

[01475]

When you're reading something lawyers wrote you need to be really careful... and most particularly so with that press statement they've put out.

I think it actually says that the company has the resources to make the application, not the resources to build the airport?

[Harry Wayfarers]

I'd like the Doc to post us a link to his CV so we may read of his extensive background in airport management & development etc.

[Barling Magna]

Dr Webber's academic credentials are certainly impressive and he has clearly undertaken some impressive work in the field of physics and thermo-dynamics. Seems a little light on the aviation front though..........

https://www.kent.ac.uk/physical-sciences/publications/home/jbww.html

[southside bobby]

Becoming hilarious.....a couple of posters from a struggling airport pouring scorn on a totally failed airport....keep it up.....

[Barling Magna]

Fourth EZY to be based at SEN next year, pax figures now growing rapidly. SEN's location scores heavily over Manston's, I'm afraid.

[southside bobby]

Priceless....Location......that would be a different type of sea & water lapping around half of the catchment area then....By the way Manston was struggling too until the owner/operator had the bright idea to start an airline!!..It could be well perceived that was gonna fail apart from the Manston supporters with finally Manston becoming the totally failed commercial airport it is....

[Barling Magna]

Oh dear, what a sad life you must lead. Nothing better to do than be unpleasant for no reason?

Southend has a catchment of 1.5 million within 20 miles, it isn't in the middle of nowhere like a certain Bishop's Stortford International is, and East London is ten miles further on. It has its own railway station. In what way is its location inferior to Manston's?

[southside bobby]

Barling Magna.....Whoooa......Calm yourself man...You too might be to old to play the snowflake....so when is reality unpleasant & leads you to portray my life as sad?...pray do explain dear boy..... & its one of your invalid points isn`t it when Bishop`s Stortford International to use your own invective..(STN I guess you mean) & only as you mention it,far from being in the middle of nowhere as in your terming is actually an International Gateway for London & much much farther afield,it has more destinations to Europe than any other airport....& does not rely on a mere 1.5M catchment....in fact STN would regard SEN`s catchment as it own too I would imagine,if only allowing for that fact of total destinations flown,let alone freq & pricing..Your geography but more importantly perhaps economic geography is lacking dear chap....Anyways a cheap shot I know but if SEN was totally surrounded by catchment & not half being water then perhaps you could double your quoted available market size.....If SEN is so connected why it being artificially stimulated as per my previous comments....SEN`s location also might have nothing to do with Railway Stations,but it`s location within the industry`s psyche...The industry has never asked for or sought the SEN development/redevelopment & have not been lured,whatever may be their reasoning?....Apologies not trying to be unpleasant I just ask & have been asking questions which no SEN poster is game enough to challenge with honest reasoning or statements,only with bluster....Good Luck SS & apologies to the Manston thread for use for the reply...

[Barling Magna]

The unpleasantness refers to your words "hilarious" and "priceless", neither of which are reality, but opinions. In terms of being in the middle of nowhere I meant that Stansted's immediate catchment is much smaller than SEN's.

There is no way that SEN will ever again dominate STN as it once did, STN has the infrastructure and the critical mass to continue to prosper. However, there's no reason why SEN can't prosper too albeit at a much lower level of pax than STN.

Manston, on the other hand, is unlikely to ever prosper again unless investment on a gigantic scale is involved. A great shame. I remember seeing Air Ferry and Invicta DC-4s and Vikings there so many years ago but even then the airport struggled.

[Harry Wayfarers]

Becoming hilarious.....a couple of posters from a struggling airport pouring scorn on a totally failed airport....keep it up.....

If you're referring to me Bobby then which airport thread, of the many that I have posted in, are you referring to as 'struggling'?

My local airport goes from strength to strength, when I arrived here 6 years ago we had two flights per week, ATR72's, one on a Monday and one on a Friday albeit only on one hour sectors as that is all the length of runway would permit.

Over the past 4 years, it has taken them that long, to extend off one end of the runway by about the size of a postage stamp whilst we now have a terminal building and no longer have to wait in the open air ... although I do still prefer to wait in the airport car park until the ATR72 has performed it's flyby over the top before making it's visual approach to land.

These days we're up to as many as 4 or 5 flights daily, up to 3 ATR72's and 2 BAe146-100's and in another few years, or however long it may take them to extend off the other end of the runway, we might even be able to accept Q400's and BAe146-200's.

And, who knows, in the future they may even think about introducing such things as fuel and runway lights and, if they really push the boat out, even an instrument aid such as an NDB.

Have a nice day Bobby!

[Heathrow Harry]

Gents - lay off - you'll get this thread locked and that is to no-ones benifit..............

[Harry Wayfarers]

Gents - lay off - you'll get this thread locked and that is to no-ones benifit..............

I recently dropped by the STN thread, there appears to have been some sort of cat fight going on, Essex Girl vs Essex Girl or Hertfordshire Girl or whatever, somehow it appears to have found it's way to this Kent Real Estate thread, hopefully it has since returned to Essex or Hertfordshire or wherever it belongs.

[deedave]

I think the trick is to stay on topic chaps. The topic is Manston Airport. A little tricky as there is no airport at Manston but please do your best.

[DrBeauWebber]

Manston Airport - Airside building Change of Use Enquiry.
Inspector sides with RiverOak Strategic Partners(RSP) on all four counts,
Dismisses Stone Hill Park Appeals.

This Enquiry concerned the possible change of use of four key airside buildings - if they had been converted to non airport use, this would have seriously compromised the ability to handle cargo on the airport.

However these appeals were rejected, and all Manston Airport remains designated as an airport.


SHP and TDC Plans in Tatters
Following the decision by the Planning Inspector to dismiss the Change of Use Appeal, a number of things become clear:
The Avia report is now totally discredited.
The saved Policy EC4 stands so aviation only at Manston.
The 2017 Revised SP05 Local plan for Manston must be scrapped.
2500 houses must be reallocated so SP11 will also have to be changed.

SHP Planning Application must be put on hold for the foreseeable future.


Planning Inspectorate :

Overall Conclusions and Planning Balance
47. The relevant legislation requires that the appeal be determined in accordance with the statutory development plan unless material considerations indicate otherwise. The Framework states that proposals should be considered in the context of the presumption in favour of sustainable development, which is defined by the economic, social, and environmental dimensions and the interrelated roles they perform.
48. I have carefully considered the various arguments made by the appellant in support of these appeals. The re-use of the buildings would generate certain economic benefits, although as the appellant notes, they would be relatively modest. The proposals could be seen as making efficient use of existing underused buildings, and as a pragmatic response to the fact that the airport has not been operational since 2014. I have also weighed in the balance that the Council has changed its original stance, and is no longer resisting these appeals.
49. Balanced against these factors is the conflict with the adopted development plan, which recognises the economic importance of the airport and safeguards the appeal site for aviation uses. Such an approach is in accordance with the Framework and with national aviation policy. In these respects, I consider Policy EC4 continues to carry significant weight in the overall planning balance.
I make no judgement on the merits or otherwise of RSP’s plans, or their future success. However, given a DCO application is currently being prepared, the possibility of the site being used as an airport in the future cannot be ruled out.
This being so, and until a new policy framework exists at the airport, I see little justification for departing from adopted development plan policy which identifies the appeal site as falling within the ‘Airside Development Area’ where aviation uses are appropriate.
50. I have taken account of the appellant’s contention that the resumption of airport use by RSP would not be prejudiced or compromised if these appeals were allowed because any future DCO would likely include compulsory purchase powers to secure vacant possession of the airport. However, I am not persuaded that granting permission for development that does not accord with the development plan can be justified on the basis that compulsory purchase powers can be used to reverse it in the future.
51. I have taken into consideration the latest emerging local planning policy which proposes to re-designate the airport for mixed use development. However, the consultation process has only recently occurred and the emerging Plan is subject to various outstanding objections and its policies may change. In accordance with Paragraph 216 of the Framework, I find little weight can be given to the emerging policy.
52. Overall, I conclude that the appeal schemes would conflict with Policy EC4 of the Local Plan, as well as its wider economic development and regeneration objectives. The proposals would conflict with the Council’s current approach to the location of new development within the airport, which is consistent with national policy. The benefits of the scheme put forward by the appellants do not justify departure from Policy EC4 of the Local Plan. Hence I find there are no material considerations of sufficient weight that would warrant a decision other than in accordance with the development plan. Accordingly, I conclude that the appeals should be dismissed.

[01475]

I remain in admiration of your commitment to the cause, but also confusion and bewilderment at your commitment to the cause.

However this doesn't mean that it's acceptable to mislead, which you have started to do first gently and more recently increasingly less so.

I would therefore politely point out that your bullet points bare only the vaguest connection to the rest of what you posted. In particular a and c do not follow, d follows only temporarily, and e and f do not follow. g is correct, though. I find it disappointing that a man of your skills, and who is undoubtedly capable of communicating clearly and accurately, would use his communication skills they way that recently you have started to do :-(

[deedave]

01475 is entirely correct. Dr Beau Webber your "bullet points" are pure fiction. We need to see the inspector's report in full but it would appear from his initial statement that he takes the view that the new local plan has not yet been implemented (mixed use development for the former airfield) so the old plan remains until the new one is adopted.

[Harry Wayfarers]

Doc,

You have lost all credibility here mate, give up your one man campaign here and go enjoy your retirement.

[IB4138]

Glass houses, stones........

[Jetscream 32]

Bottom line is when Oliver Iny tried to develop Manston with TF by his side all the dreams were wild ones... we all remember the EU Jet operation! It might survive as a small regional airport offering a double daily to AMS with an ATR along with a few charters to the sun for SAGA / Cruise operators for fly cruise type stuff, but you'd actually be better using all that space and building massive hangars for MRO & Biz Jets with a heli-shuttle to town.

No matter what the dreams, to get that airfield back to licensed state with all of the fixed costs involved you can kiss goodbye to at least £10 mill and then you will be looking at a min of £3.5m + per annum in operating costs.

I somehow doubt TF has backers to the tune of £15 Mill+ in liquid cash for an airport surrounded by water on 3 sides!

[Andy_S]

I remain in admiration of your commitment to the cause, but also confusion and bewilderment at your commitment to the cause.

I've often wondered what's in it for Dr BW?

[01475]

I'm just assuming he really really cares about this. Almost more than anyone cares about anything. He could have had a railway line re-opened or something!

[ANGRYBEARD]

Bottom line is when Oliver Iny tried to develop Manston with TF by his side all the dreams were wild ones... we all remember the EU Jet operation! It might survive as a small regional airport offering a double daily to AMS with an ATR along with a few charters to the sun for SAGA / Cruise operators for fly cruise type stuff, but you'd actually be better using all that space and building massive hangars for MRO & Biz Jets with a heli-shuttle to town.

No matter what the dreams, to get that airfield back to licensed state with all of the fixed costs involved you can kiss goodbye to at least £10 mill and then you will be looking at a min of £3.5m + per annum in operating costs.

I somehow doubt TF has backers to the tune of £15 Mill+ in liquid cash for an airport surrounded by water on 3 sides!

That, plus the cargo and you'll have what it was doing before.

Although having seen the place recently, stripped down and decaying, I think the money would be nearer £40 million, all those skilled stuff have been scattered in the wind

[lotus1]

With regards to costs of running manston always atopic I wonder if the rate payers of Kent are going to get a shock with the news that 16000 yes possible new houses are to be built around Canterbury as reported in local media and the proposed 5000 new houses on the manston site who will have to pay for new hospitals and services ? I know what I would go for let them carry on with the airport

[deedave]

Lotus- 2500 new houses on the former airfield not 5000. Housing on 1/3 of the site, 1/3 business use, 1/3 open green space. The housing allocation for Thanet has been made by central government. If it doesn't go on the former airfield it goes on greenfield or is added to existing residential areas

[lotus1]

No matter if it's 2500 houses do you think ramsgate Margate or even Canterbury health trusts are going to cope with these new houses can you imagine if reported in the local Kent news today that the green light has been given for the new development in Canterbury 16000 new houses in the area some one is going to have to pay for the services its logic?

[deedave]

Population growth is a reality of human existence and always has been. Facilities are provided by society as required. However this is an aviation forum so this discussion belongs elsewhere.

[Harry Wayfarers]

Each time the Doc may resurrect this thread with the latest Manston non-event, whether it be access being granted or a sparrow farting, it brings out the same old, or similar, responses to the effect that the Doc is dreaming or similar yet he conbnues posting here in belief that it helps Manston's cause, why give him the satisfaction!

Going back as far as the 1970's, perhaps earlier, all RAF Manston had based there were two yellow helicopters, since going commercial what movements has Manston had ... EU Jet would have had a maximum of 6 whispering Fokkers, KLM similarly a whispering Fokker twice a day, but neither of these operations lasted for very long, the occasional heavy freighter in for maintenance, for shooting a James Bond movie and occasionally one with a revenue load on it, occasionally an IT charter, a diversion, some circuits and bumps for crew training ... I mean that the number of movements at Manston has hardly been disturbing the 'Garden of England' existence.

Now what occurs to me that normally when there is a proposal for something noisy, particularly one that will involve noisy transports and pollution, the protesters will be out in their droves like when they proposed that Filton become a commercial airport, who remembers Swampy and the Newbury by-pass, additional runway(s) at STN, the farmer at Carlisle, the SEN expansion being another one but at Manston ... Nothing!

So my guess would be that the locals around Manston are relieved that it has closed and they've got better things to do than protest because they realise that the Doc and his misfits haven't got a hope in hell of getting it re-opened.

[kcockayne]

Pretty much "summed up in a nutshell",Harry. Nothing more need be said, in my opinion.

[01475]

I see the issue of the airport is causing political problems again...

Beverly Martin defection: UKIP loses control of its only council - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-40691149)

In October 2015 five councillors defected from the UK's first UKIP authority due to concerns over the council's lack of action over Manston Airport.

...


"The first one when I became an independent was specifically on the issue of Manston.

They must all know it's a dead duck. I suspect that once a party thinks they can still win the council while admitting this the majority of their non-delusional representatives will start saying it...

[deedave]

The person highlighted in the news item in the above post pretty much illustrates the profile of the average person campaigning to open the former airfield. Aviation expert? Draw your own conclusions!

[Harry Wayfarers]

Right ...

I might be half a world away but I have some guests staying with me at present, he now lives in Margate but he grew up in Ramsgate, we got on to discussing what the locals think that Manston may re-open..

He explained that a new town has sprung up between Margate and Ramsgate, I think called Weston Cross, it has been specifically populated by people from the London Borough of Lewisham and there is significant local animosity regarding.

As they have been informed there are two choices for the Manston airfield site, another new town housing even more people from the London Borough of Lewisham or an airport and given the two choices they'd prefer an airport.

But ... They have been bullsh1tted that a re-opened Manston would be an alternative to a 3rd runway at LHR, my guest I was talking with imagines jetting off to wherever from a re-opened Manston whilst all we hear here are plans for it to re-open as a, pretty much, dedicated freight airport ... even though the runway isn't long enough!

So somebody is bullsh1tting both locally in Thanet and here on PPRuNe and I think we all know who ... My guest questioned "Have you heard of the American investment group behind it?", I jokingly replied "Have you heard of who the t0sser is behind that American investment group?"

Keep up the good work Doc! :)

[ANGRYBEARD]

Right ...

I might be half a world away but I have some guests staying with me at present, he now lives in Margate but he grew up in Ramsgate, we got on to discussing what the locals think that Manston may re-open..

He explained that a new town has sprung up between Margate and Ramsgate, I think called Weston Cross, it has been specifically populated by people from the London Borough of Lewisham and there is significant local animosity regarding.

As they have been informed there are two choices for the Manston airfield site, another new town housing even more people from the London Borough of Lewisham or an airport and given the two choices they'd prefer an airport.

But ... They have been bullsh1tted that a re-opened Manston would be an alternative to a 3rd runway at LHR, my guest I was talking with imagines jetting off to wherever from a re-opened Manston whilst all we hear here are plans for it to re-open as a, pretty much, dedicated freight airport ... even though the runway isn't long enough!

So somebody is bullsh1tting both locally in Thanet and here on PPRuNe and I think we all know who ... My guest questioned "Have you heard of the American investment group behind it?", I jokingly replied "Have you heard of who the t0sser is behind that American investment group?"

Keep up the good work Doc! :)

I'm from Thanet and I feel you may of got some of the facts wrong... It is Westwood Cross and it has been in development since the late 90's. Primarily a retail and entertainment area,opened over 10 years ago with the housing part of it only being quite recent. It is a long way from being a town and up take has been quite limited, with most of the abandoned farm land remaining empty.
As far as people coming from Lewisham??? The whole of Thanet is populated with people from the London area, with the seaside draw being bigger than ever with the reinvention of Margate. There are only probably a few dozen houses built so far and the planned site of the school is now a supermarket. From the site you can see one of the many areas designated a business park, lying empty, but the space here is nothing compared to the large areas planned for business and industrial use next to Manston, with the first new buildings there in over 10 years.
Riveroaks plans have been well advertised in the local press, with the links we have on this forum. There have been no lies. I don't want to disrespect your guests, but they have obviously heard what they want to.
The owners plans for Manston have been little more than a map coloured in, freight has always been the main earner for Manston, with other potential following, passenger flights are planned on the same scale as ever, with the increasingly affluent, growing local population wanting the choice to connect to the world or take their holiday charter without enduring the misery of the M25 and the chaotic, in personal experience of the London airports.

[Harry Wayfarers]

I'm from Thanet and I feel you may of got some of the facts wrong... It is Westwood Cross and it has been in development since the late 90's. Primarily a retail and entertainment area,opened over 10 years ago with the housing part of it only being quite recent. It is a long way from being a town and up take has been quite limited, with most of the abandoned farm land remaining empty.
As far as people coming from Lewisham??? The whole of Thanet is populated with people from the London area, with the seaside draw being bigger than ever with the reinvention of Margate. There are only probably a few dozen houses built so far and the planned site of the school is now a supermarket. From the site you can see one of the many areas designated a business park, lying empty, but the space here is nothing compared to the large areas planned for business and industrial use next to Manston, with the first new buildings there in over 10 years.
Riveroaks plans have been well advertised in the local press, with the links we have on this forum. There have been no lies. I don't want to disrespect your guests, but they have obviously heard what they want to.
The owners plans for Manston have been little more than a map coloured in, freight has always been the main earner for Manston, with other potential following, passenger flights are planned on the same scale as ever, with the increasingly affluent, growing local population wanting the choice to connect to the world or take their holiday charter without enduring the misery of the M25 and the chaotic, in personal experience of the London airports.

Whether it be Weston Cross or Westwood Cross might be considered nitpicking!

As for connecting to the world Manston had that opportunity with KLM connecting Thanet to KLM's, and all their codeshare partners, world, but two or three Fokkers, or whatever, a day don't make for a viable airport.

You say that freight has always been the main earner for Manston, is that because it failed so miserably trying to attract passengers that the occasional freight movement won every time?

I worked for some 7 years in the cargo airline business, I do recall the occasional loaded freighter going thru Manston but more often than not the freighters were in Manston for maintenance with Jet Support, they weren't carrying revenue loads and what part of "THE RUNWAY ISN'T LONG ENOUGH" do you people have difficulty understanding?

And, yes, I did put a loaded freighter in to Manston one day, it was an F27 on it's way back DUS/SEN when pretty much all of England fogged out, Manston popped up with 1,000m RVR so we diverted it in there ... There, you can add a diverted F27 freighter to your statistics!

As for holiday destinations, EUJet tried it with modestly sized F100's and they failed miserably, Flybe had a route or two out of Manston but they couldn't make those work, as per my previous post the people of Thanet are being led to believe that with a re-opened Manston they can be jetting off to a holiday destination of their choice from their doorstep airport, well someone needs to tell these people the truth!

[Andy_S]

I really hope that it becomes a thriving working airport again........

I can't recall any point at which Manston could be described as "thriving".......

[asdf1234]

Whether it be Weston Cross or Westwood Cross might be considered nitpicking!

As for connecting to the world Manston had that opportunity with KLM connecting Thanet to KLM's, and all their codeshare partners, world, but two or three Fokkers, or whatever, a day don't make for a viable airport.

You say that freight has always been the main earner for Manston, is that because it failed so miserably trying to attract passengers that the occasional freight movement won every time?

I worked for some 7 years in the cargo airline business, I do recall the occasional loaded freighter going thru Manston but more often than not the freighters were in Manston for maintenance with Jet Support, they weren't carrying revenue loads and what part of "THE RUNWAY ISN'T LONG ENOUGH" do you people have difficulty understanding?

And, yes, I did put a loaded freighter in to Manston one day, it was an F27 on it's way back DUS/SEN when pretty much all of England fogged out, Manston popped up with 1,000m RVR so we diverted it in there ... There, you can add a diverted F27 freighter to your statistics!

As for holiday destinations, EUJet tried it with modestly sized F100's and they failed miserably, Flybe had a route or two out of Manston but they couldn't make those work, as per my previous post the people of Thanet are being led to believe that with a re-opened Manston they can be jetting off to a holiday destination of their choice from their doorstep airport, well someone needs to tell these people the truth!

Too much fiction Harry and not enough fact. Looking at 2011 the airport was ranked 8th largest in the UK on total freight handled, and 5th largest when considering only dedicated freighter cargo (i.e. excluding pax ops cargo).

25,500 tonnes of imported cargo in 2011. Runway too short??? I don't think so. And all of this 25,500 tonnes being delivered by "the odd freighter movement"??? I don't think so.

It's a rumour network here but when the facts are to hand, let's use them rather concocting fiction.

[Jetscream 32]

For Freight it really was a dream place for the importers and in particular Tesco that were using MK for the perishables from Africa. I believe the record for on chocks to first truck loaded with LD3's and then truck landside on its way to DC was 8 minutes, that was achieved when the new apron was laid.
The only issues was the runway was not long enough for the fully laden MD 11 which was where the money really was - a 300 mtr extension and the airport would still be busy as a freight / regional pax airport - still all history now and the like of MK dont really exist anymore.

[Harry Wayfarers]

Too much fiction Harry and not enough fact. Looking at 2011 the airport was ranked 8th largest in the UK on total freight handled, and 5th largest when considering only dedicated freighter cargo (i.e. excluding pax ops cargo).

25,500 tonnes of imported cargo in 2011. Runway too short??? I don't think so. And all of this 25,500 tonnes being delivered by "the odd freighter movement"??? I don't think so.

It's a rumour network here but when the facts are to hand, let's use them rather concocting fiction.

Ah ... IMPORTED cargo, a heavy freighter needs less runway to land than it does to take off, so this was inbound freight only, hardly a profit making business if every other sector was a ferry flight.

Runway not long enough for a heavy MD11? ... The runway isn't long enough for a heavy DC8, DC10, B747, B777 or pretty much anything of a similar size, for a heavy one of those need a minimum of 10,000ft and then some.

8th largest in freight handled in 2011, well I can think of an obvious first four or five, three LON's, MAN & EMA, then I'd suggest we are scraping the barrel for numbers 6 and below!

Guess what the number 1 airport in Wales was during 2011? ... LOL

[asdf1234]

Ah ... IMPORTED cargo, a heavy freighter needs less runway to land than it does to take off, so this was inbound freight only, hardly a profit making business if every other sector was a ferry flight.

Runway not long enough for a heavy MD11? ... The runway isn't long enough for a heavy DC8, DC10, B747, B777 or pretty much anything of a similar size, for a heavy one of those need a minimum of 10,000ft and then some.

8th largest in freight handled in 2011, well I can think of an obvious first four or five, three LON's, MAN & EMA, then I'd suggest we are scraping the barrel for numbers 6 and below!

Guess what the number 1 airport in Wales was during 2011? ... LOL

So you agree that there were substantial movements, there was substantial cargo, however because it was inbound and not outbound that still makes the runway too short :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Guess what? Of the total freight Luton shifted last year, 80% was freight in and just 20% freight out. Stansted? 67% of the total freight was freight in.

Manston is viable as a freight hub. Imported fresh produce made up the bulk of its activity, and given its faster hold-to-truck-to-road times over Heathrow, Gatwick et al, the fresh produce got into the London markets quicker despite Manston being further away by road.

Harry, I suggest you stick to reminiscing rather than attempting to shoot people down, like the good Doctor, who might actually have a valid point.

[inOban]

How much of our imported fresh produce goes to London markets, and how much to the supermarket distribution centres? And where are they? And how is this produce arriving now? Just asking.

[Andy_S]

Guess what? Of the total freight Luton shifted last year, 80% was freight in and just 20% freight out. Stansted? 67% of the total freight was freight in.

They’re not good comparisons, though. Both those airports have substantial passenger traffic, so don’t need to maximise freight in the way Manston would need to.

Manston is viable as a freight hub.

History would suggest otherwise. Whatever volumes of fresh produce were being flown in, wherever Manston stood in the freight rankings, it was never enough to make the airport commercially viable. Various people have tried, without success.

Imported fresh produce made up the bulk of its activity, and given its faster hold-to-truck-to-road times over Heathrow, Gatwick et al, the fresh produce got into the London markets quicker despite Manston being further away by road.

The trouble is that really only works for intermittent freight deliveries. If Manston were to start dealing with the sort of volumes of freight that would make it commercially viable, that rapid turnaround time would be degraded and any time advantage compromised.

[Harry Wayfarers]

So you agree that there were substantial movements, there was substantial cargo, however because it was inbound and not outbound that still makes the runway too short :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Nope, I never suggested anything of the sort!

Guess what? Of the total freight Luton shifted last year, 80% was freight in and just 20% freight out. Stansted? 67% of the total freight was freight in.

LTN & STN make their money from SLF, the type of freight that walks on, the carry on stuff is merely the icing on the cake of an already profitable product.

Manston is viable as a freight hub.

Then why has it changed ownership, ahead of insolvency, more than once and ultimately been sold for real estate development?

Harry, I suggest you stick to reminiscing

I am, once upon a time Manston had an RAF base and then a commercial airport, oh bygone days but we can all reminisce of what could have been!

[ANGRYBEARD]

Whether it be Weston Cross or Westwood Cross might be considered nitpicking!

As for connecting to the world Manston had that opportunity with KLM connecting Thanet to KLM's, and all their codeshare partners, world, but two or three Fokkers, or whatever, a day don't make for a viable airport.

You say that freight has always been the main earner for Manston, is that because it failed so miserably trying to attract passengers that the occasional freight movement won every time?

I worked for some 7 years in the cargo airline business, I do recall the occasional loaded freighter going thru Manston but more often than not the freighters were in Manston for maintenance with Jet Support, they weren't carrying revenue loads and what part of "THE RUNWAY ISN'T LONG ENOUGH" do you people have difficulty understanding?

And, yes, I did put a loaded freighter in to Manston one day, it was an F27 on it's way back DUS/SEN when pretty much all of England fogged out, Manston popped up with 1,000m RVR so we diverted it in there ... There, you can add a diverted F27 freighter to your statistics!

As for holiday destinations, EUJet tried it with modestly sized F100's and they failed miserably, Flybe had a route or two out of Manston but they couldn't make those work, as per my previous post the people of Thanet are being led to believe that with a re-opened Manston they can be jetting off to a holiday destination of their choice from their doorstep airport, well someone needs to tell these people the truth!

I won't be getting into one of these forum arguments, my reply to your previous message was due to you stating the facts of locals, who as I mentioned seem to of paid attention to what they want, rather than published fact.

2-3 Fokkers was never intended to make the place a viable airport, the catchment area has always been to limited and a regional connection was what KLM wanted to achieve as they had done at Norwich and other smaller airports and they were disappointed when the airport closed.
The money was always in freight movements, usually inbound fresh produce with a 747 able to be landed, unloaded and on the road custom checked within an hour being a big appeal. Freight going out was more limited, but printed matter, live animals (the equine facility was one of the few investments that infratil made) and specialist loads-I remember a AN-124 spending some time being loaded with a satellite. Training requirements, GA movements and as you mentioned maintenance counted for other aircraft.
EUJET tried to take on the concept of city breaks with multiple flights to differing Western Europe destinations, but with limited catchment as mentioned, it had mixed results. It was hastily set up and being bought by the airport operator was always a bad business decision. The flybe flights were always doomed to be nothing more than a test of using sat aircraft in the middle of the day to destinations more likely to appeal to business persons who would waste a day taking a flight at such a time.
The holiday destinations I refer to were the charter packages throughout the season that gave locals a choice of holiday with the previously mentioned appeals, These were often fully booked.
What I have said is what the locals have been told, go through the thread, look at the links and tell me where your statements have got fact from, no one promoting the airport has ever said Manston will take on the role of Heathrows third runway, the closest has been that taking a more regional approach, including MSE would reduce the of traffic needing Heathrow. Living in Thanet I have travelled internationally both making the trip to London airports and through Manston and beyond and I can tell you which I preferred.
Please don't come back slating my responses, look into what I say. As far as Manston now, I would love for it to succeed, I know that better investment when it was open would have seen it hold its own, but the tens of millions required to reopen it would never be returned.

[asdf1234]

They’re not good comparisons, though. Both those airports have substantial passenger traffic, so don’t need to maximise freight in the way Manston would need to.



History would suggest otherwise. Whatever volumes of fresh produce were being flown in, wherever Manston stood in the freight rankings, it was never enough to make the airport commercially viable. Various people have tried, without success.



The trouble is that really only works for intermittent freight deliveries. If Manston were to start dealing with the sort of volumes of freight that would make it commercially viable, that rapid turnaround time would be degraded and any time advantage compromised.

Good points Andy, however the financial failure of the airport was down to the freight income not being sufficient to cover overheads that were in place to attract pax operations. The 24 hours fire cover being just one example. If they had concentrated solely on freight the P&L would have looked different.

To grow freight they needed night time flying which I believe was granted just prior to the sale to Ann Gloag.

[deedave]

Manston never handled more than about 1.5% of UK freight tonnage. This may indeed have made it 5th in the UK but it's still only 1.5%.

[Harry Wayfarers]

2-3 Fokkers was never intended to make the place a viable airport, the catchment area has always been to limited and a regional connection was what KLM wanted to achieve as they had done at Norwich and other smaller airports and they were disappointed when the airport closed.The NWI/AMS route was started by Air Anglia, once British & Commonwealth Shipping bought in that became Air UK, once KLM bought in that became KLM UK, KLM didn't achieve anything from NWI except what was already in place for them to buy out.

Right, I'll get back to sucking eggs :)

[lotus1]

I use to go down to manston quite a lot before the restaurant was changed prior Eujet days use to get quite a lot of the air crews use this I remember one Sunday when the Folkestone air show was on the airport was high in activity with civil aircraft an an124 landed then 2 air Sofia an12s then mk dc8s African international then to round of a il76 I wonder if the British service personal thought they where in the iron curtain also there was a outfit based for a wihile remember OMega air with there 707s bit of a mystery when one of there 707s run of the runway in Africa somewhere with UN Troops on something about the brakes did a bit of leasing out in the early 90s on IT FLights great clip on YouTube

[SWBKCB]

For Freight it really was a dream place for the importers and in particular Tesco that were using MK for the perishables from Africa.

Tesco and the other major supermarkets are doing their best to reduce the amount of perishables shipped by air freight - declining market :confused:

[01475]

Manston never handled more than about 1.5% of UK freight tonnage. This may indeed have made it 5th in the UK but it's still only 1.5%.

Shall we also get Swansea re-opened? Was the 2nd biggest airport in Wales at one point only recently :-)

[compton3bravo]

I would go for Anglesey as the second airport for Wales not Swansea. Whoever thinks Manston would be a viable airport want their heads testing. I am all for airports but not this one. It would be better used as a lorry park especially after Brexit whenever that might happen, because the EU are really going to make things difficult - remember two years ago at Dover!

[Harry Wayfarers]

I would go for Anglesey as the second airport for Wales not Swansea. Whoever thinks Manston would be a viable airport want their heads testing. I am all for airports but not this one. It would be better used as a lorry park especially after Brexit whenever that might happen, because the EU are really going to make things difficult - remember two years ago at Dover!

I'd suggest that England's Chester Airport is the 2nd busiest commercial airport in Wales.

OK, a thread drift, but this is a forum of Airlines, Airports & Routes and Manston doesn't have any of those so we may as well chat about something aviation related!