Can you get an Arrow 4 in to a 500metre strip

[Phil Space]

Are there any experts on here who can give advice on a T tail arrow working a 500m grass strip?

[gcolyer]

The POH probably says no. I would imagine you can. But the bigger issue is getting it out. I would imagine with half fuel and no pax you might be able to get out again.

[hobbit1983]

I'm by no means an expert, but I believe the T-tail produces problems with shortfield landings (as opposed to the 'standard' design) due to the elevator being out of the propwash.

When you say 'working' presumably you mean basing/regular use? I suspect that it may be possible to land/takeoff from a strip under certain conditions/weights, but some other combination of variable factors such as wind, density altitude, MAUW, runway condition etc would preclude a fair proportion of flights.

[S-Works]

If the POH says no then the answer is NO!

I seem to recall the term MACHO being used in Human Perf questions.......

[Kit d'Rection KG]

Phil Space,

If you can, the POH will tell you. If you can't, likewise. If you don't understand the POH, step away from the aircraft.

If you'd like people to respect you as an able aviator, don't post darn fool questions like this.

Proper pilots fly by the book.

[Granite City Flyer]

I'm certainly no expert (ex = has been, spert = drip under pressure),
but I have flown an Arrow 4 in and out of Derby rwy 23 without a problem.(LDA 341m, TORA 445m).

Usual caveats apply - obstacles, surface condition, pilot skill, aircraft condition/rigging, engine/prop condition esp. max rpm set correctly. Soft ground will punish you badly on the take off run, you'll get to a certain speed then stop accelerating.

Correct technique v.important. Use POH speeds and flap settings, do not add 5 for the wife, 5 more for the kids, a bit for the wind and some more for good luck (take off and landing).

If in doubt get some good training on short fields/strips.
If still in doubt get a Cessna instead.

[S-Works]

I have put a Duchess in and out of the same runway, does not mean i would want to do it with anything more than me on board and vapour for fuel. I also recall watching a warrior being pulled out of the hedge on that exact runway due to the pilot thinking they could get in and out of 'No problem'...........

the reason we read about so many people going through hedges is they were happy to ignore the POH.

I am the first to go for a bit of adventure but am against encouraging stupidity.

[Pilot DAR]

I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I've got a bunch of time in various models of the Arrow, as well as a few thousand hours in STOL Cessnas, and I'd only try a "T" tail arrow in and out of 500 meters if I were desperate. Flying one with only two of us on board on a hot day in Florida many years ago, 1200 meters was only just comfortable to clear 50', and I had to deceive the gear into retracting early to make that work out to my liking.

An Arrow I (low tail) is much friendlier in short runways, and I used to operate one regularly in and out of 500 meters, but I was at the top of my game every time, had no obsticles, was usually light, and had less than ideal room for error.

My qualified advice is don't attempt it in an Arrow 4, unless it's an emergency. If you're planning regular operations, I'd select either a different type (ideally STOL kitted) or a much longer runway. Pipers are great planes, and I'm not knocking them, but it's Cessna singles which shine in short field operations.

Pilot DAR

[norilsk]

The answer has to be......"Only ONCE"

[Granite City Flyer]

Wasn't encouraging stupidity, just saying its possible.

POH said it was OK on the day, we were 3 up with fuel from/to London.

I was just making the point that POH perf. figures (+facoring) only work if you fly the aeroplane how the POH tells you too.

[A and C]

The answer is writen quite clearly in the POH so lets not have any more rubbish on this thread.

Please could some one with a POH just give us the RTOW for an ISA day on 500 m of grass..............?

[Contacttower]

Don't have the Arrow IV to hand but for the PA28-161, at max weight on grass and including all CAA recommended factors I seem to remember 437m for take off. Certainly for the current Arrow the take off figures are almost the same as the Warrior (I think) at max weight...but I would say a light Arrow would outpace a light Warrior.

[Kiltie]

Depends if the 500m is TORA or TODA. I regularly use a 500m strip (TORA, with no obstacles) in a Turbo Arrow 4 with no problems, but set a personal precaution of no more than 30 US gallons and two on board. I haven't recently referred to the POH as such but it would be wise as another poster stated to use the CAA factoring system for grass which I recall is x 1.33 (check the AIC).

The only benefit I observed over the years with the low tail Cherokees is that the nosewheel can be lifted earlier using the propwash, but then a balance has to be struck with the consequent induced drag this presents.
No doubt I will be slated by other posters for not doing the performance calculations (as would your insurers!) but the fact remains, I've never had any problems with due caution exercised. As another poster declared, six cylinder Cessna singles are more capable on grass.

In summary, it can be done if the conditions are right, but you'd be best to prove it first with reference to the POH.

[sternone]

For the worldpeace i will not answer this question...

[Radar]

According to my copy of the POH,

Level, dry paved runway,

Sea level, standard temperature

No wind

25 degree flap

Max MP prior to brake release

gives

Take off run 1050 feet

Clear 50ft obstacle 1700 ft

[Contacttower]

Is that at max weight?

If you add grass factor to that then the take off does look a little marginal...better take the Cub :ok:.

[IO540]

The POH will give the answer for a HARD runway. There is no point in debating that bit.

(It may require quite aggressive techniques e.g. rotating just above Vs, with the stall warner going off for quite a while)

For GRASS, I doubt any POH will have the data because it varies so much. The CAA has for years been handing out a leaflet suggesting 30% is added to the takeoff distance for short grass, which may or may not be applicable to a specific type.

I would not take the TB20 to 500m grass, but 500m tarmac is fine at MTOW, ISA, according to the perf chart, and I've done it. Switzerland for example has plenty of 500m tarmac runways, operating all PA28 types, Mooneys, you name it.

[Radar]

Contacttower,

The figures I quoted are for max weight (2900lbs) and as IO540 stated, there are no data provided for operation of grass. Let's face it, the IV likes runway in comparison to convensional tailed varieties, regardless of whether that happens to be tarmac or grass.

[Final 3 Greens]

I operated a normally aspirated 4 with winterization (heavier battery in engine bay) out of 700m of grass quite comfortably, 4 up (2 kids though) and full tanks.

I operated the same aircraft out of 500m tarmac (POH calculations done in advance) and it was okay, especially with a 15kt headwind component.

Like IO540, I was not bold enough to contemplate 500m grass strips, but the aircraft owner did operate out of these and told me that it was doable with caution and good planning, e.g. know the acceleration expected against distance markers etc.

However he was far more experienced and a better stick and rudder man than me.

[scooter boy]

"Only ONCE" :D
My thoughts exactly!!

SB

[Daysleeper]

Don't forget light aircraft performance figures should be treated in the same way as car makers claims for miles per gallon.

[tb10er]

If you need to ask, then the answer is NO:confused:

[Zero Thrust]

I used to operate an Arrow IV non turbo from a 500 metre grass strip and although it was fairly easy to land the take offs were always an "eyeballs glued to the panel" affair.

I only used to take off one or two people on board and never more than half fuel and the a/c was generally airborne at about 350 to 400 metres.

The margin for error was at a minimum and so I stopped doing it. I have previously flown to many short and confined strips in many differing types of a/c and am pretty competent at it if I have to blow my own trumpet. (I have also come unstuck on a couple of occasions !)

My advice would be as a one off if you absolutely need to go there and if you have buckets full of experience but otherwise don't risk it.

[Phil Space]

Zero Thrust
You say you have come unstuck a couple of times. Care to elaborate?

[B2N2]

I have probably flown about 500 hrs in 7 different versions of the Arrow, with the exception of one ( Cherokee 180 Arrow with the Hershey bar wing) I would classify them all as performance pigs. On a hot day with full fuel and 2 up the take off distance and climb rate is pathetic.
I would be hesitant to take it out of a 400 m hard surface runway, no matter what the numbers say.
You simply leave no margin for error.

Grass has to many variables inherent to the "material".
Length of the grass has a significant effect on the numbers. Manufacturers generally do not provide charts for various grass lenghts.
The underlying turf is also important, how hard is the underlying surface?
What time of day? Moist grass with a soft surface underneath in the mornings?

Aviation is one of those deals where you don't want to re-invent the wheel.
Have others taken similar aircraft into this strip or are you the guinea pig?
How much time do you have in this particular aircraft? How well do you know it? You can have a fair amount of difference between two aircraft of the same make and model. Rigging,fuel control units, mixture settings, propeller wear, flight control cable tension,you name it.

To learn the performance of this particular aircraft: practice.
Take it into a long grass strip and practice landings at various speeds, flap settings,fuel loads, forward and aft CG etc.
Use markers or measure the distance between various reference points.
Even if you now can inconsistently do it within a specified distance, it's only a educated guess as to what you will be able to do at that other strip.
The grass length will be different, any slope will be different and the underlying surface will be different.

[Zero Thrust]

Didn't come unstuck with the Arrow IV, it was a long time ago on a planet far far away.

I am now older and less bolder !

I do however now fly a Twin Comanche from a 600 metre grass runway.

[Blink182]

It's about 450-500m grass on a hill top with good approaches.

There's a at least 10 per cent error to start with.............

[toolowtoofast]

How about Glassonby in a PA28?

Only looks about 350-400m long, using the barn at 20m as a scale. I think a PA28 would be struggling to be comfortable there. You'd get in POP, getting out would be fun. Even a late model 160hp 172 would use a lot of it. 180hp would be much better.

[S-Works]

I just went and got an aircraft that could operate out of these short strips with ease!!!!!

I think a lot of farm strips are "short" (although I don't consider 450m near short in my Cessna) because a lot of farmers did and still do fly old tail wheel type aircraft that require little ground.

They are not public strips so just cut them to meet their own needs. most of the farm strips I fly into (thanks to local contact and introduction to the flying farmers) hold a wealth of beautiful old aircraft maintained by flying enthusiasts. The common theme is most of them are classics and don't require much in the way of grass!

Granted there are more modern types as well but they tend to be of the homebuild permit type and again require little in the way of runways.