Can you get an Arrow 4 in to a 500metre strip
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The POH probably says no. I would imagine you can. But the bigger issue is getting it out. I would imagine with half fuel and no pax you might be able to get out again.
Professional Student
I'm by no means an expert, but I believe the T-tail produces problems with shortfield landings (as opposed to the 'standard' design) due to the elevator being out of the propwash.
When you say 'working' presumably you mean basing/regular use? I suspect that it may be possible to land/takeoff from a strip under certain conditions/weights, but some other combination of variable factors such as wind, density altitude, MAUW, runway condition etc would preclude a fair proportion of flights.
When you say 'working' presumably you mean basing/regular use? I suspect that it may be possible to land/takeoff from a strip under certain conditions/weights, but some other combination of variable factors such as wind, density altitude, MAUW, runway condition etc would preclude a fair proportion of flights.
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Phil Space,
If you can, the POH will tell you. If you can't, likewise. If you don't understand the POH, step away from the aircraft.
If you'd like people to respect you as an able aviator, don't post darn fool questions like this.
Proper pilots fly by the book.
If you can, the POH will tell you. If you can't, likewise. If you don't understand the POH, step away from the aircraft.
If you'd like people to respect you as an able aviator, don't post darn fool questions like this.
Proper pilots fly by the book.
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I'm certainly no expert (ex = has been, spert = drip under pressure),
but I have flown an Arrow 4 in and out of Derby rwy 23 without a problem.(LDA 341m, TORA 445m).
Usual caveats apply - obstacles, surface condition, pilot skill, aircraft condition/rigging, engine/prop condition esp. max rpm set correctly. Soft ground will punish you badly on the take off run, you'll get to a certain speed then stop accelerating.
Correct technique v.important. Use POH speeds and flap settings, do not add 5 for the wife, 5 more for the kids, a bit for the wind and some more for good luck (take off and landing).
If in doubt get some good training on short fields/strips.
If still in doubt get a Cessna instead.
but I have flown an Arrow 4 in and out of Derby rwy 23 without a problem.(LDA 341m, TORA 445m).
Usual caveats apply - obstacles, surface condition, pilot skill, aircraft condition/rigging, engine/prop condition esp. max rpm set correctly. Soft ground will punish you badly on the take off run, you'll get to a certain speed then stop accelerating.
Correct technique v.important. Use POH speeds and flap settings, do not add 5 for the wife, 5 more for the kids, a bit for the wind and some more for good luck (take off and landing).
If in doubt get some good training on short fields/strips.
If still in doubt get a Cessna instead.
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I have put a Duchess in and out of the same runway, does not mean i would want to do it with anything more than me on board and vapour for fuel. I also recall watching a warrior being pulled out of the hedge on that exact runway due to the pilot thinking they could get in and out of 'No problem'...........
the reason we read about so many people going through hedges is they were happy to ignore the POH.
I am the first to go for a bit of adventure but am against encouraging stupidity.
the reason we read about so many people going through hedges is they were happy to ignore the POH.
I am the first to go for a bit of adventure but am against encouraging stupidity.
Moderator
I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I've got a bunch of time in various models of the Arrow, as well as a few thousand hours in STOL Cessnas, and I'd only try a "T" tail arrow in and out of 500 meters if I were desperate. Flying one with only two of us on board on a hot day in Florida many years ago, 1200 meters was only just comfortable to clear 50', and I had to deceive the gear into retracting early to make that work out to my liking.
An Arrow I (low tail) is much friendlier in short runways, and I used to operate one regularly in and out of 500 meters, but I was at the top of my game every time, had no obsticles, was usually light, and had less than ideal room for error.
My qualified advice is don't attempt it in an Arrow 4, unless it's an emergency. If you're planning regular operations, I'd select either a different type (ideally STOL kitted) or a much longer runway. Pipers are great planes, and I'm not knocking them, but it's Cessna singles which shine in short field operations.
Pilot DAR
An Arrow I (low tail) is much friendlier in short runways, and I used to operate one regularly in and out of 500 meters, but I was at the top of my game every time, had no obsticles, was usually light, and had less than ideal room for error.
My qualified advice is don't attempt it in an Arrow 4, unless it's an emergency. If you're planning regular operations, I'd select either a different type (ideally STOL kitted) or a much longer runway. Pipers are great planes, and I'm not knocking them, but it's Cessna singles which shine in short field operations.
Pilot DAR
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Wasn't encouraging stupidity, just saying its possible.
POH said it was OK on the day, we were 3 up with fuel from/to London.
I was just making the point that POH perf. figures (+facoring) only work if you fly the aeroplane how the POH tells you too.
POH said it was OK on the day, we were 3 up with fuel from/to London.
I was just making the point that POH perf. figures (+facoring) only work if you fly the aeroplane how the POH tells you too.
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The answer is writen quite clearly in the POH so lets not have any more rubbish on this thread.
Please could some one with a POH just give us the RTOW for an ISA day on 500 m of grass..............?
Please could some one with a POH just give us the RTOW for an ISA day on 500 m of grass..............?
Fly Conventional Gear
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Don't have the Arrow IV to hand but for the PA28-161, at max weight on grass and including all CAA recommended factors I seem to remember 437m for take off. Certainly for the current Arrow the take off figures are almost the same as the Warrior (I think) at max weight...but I would say a light Arrow would outpace a light Warrior.
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Depends if the 500m is TORA or TODA. I regularly use a 500m strip (TORA, with no obstacles) in a Turbo Arrow 4 with no problems, but set a personal precaution of no more than 30 US gallons and two on board. I haven't recently referred to the POH as such but it would be wise as another poster stated to use the CAA factoring system for grass which I recall is x 1.33 (check the AIC).
The only benefit I observed over the years with the low tail Cherokees is that the nosewheel can be lifted earlier using the propwash, but then a balance has to be struck with the consequent induced drag this presents.
No doubt I will be slated by other posters for not doing the performance calculations (as would your insurers!) but the fact remains, I've never had any problems with due caution exercised. As another poster declared, six cylinder Cessna singles are more capable on grass.
In summary, it can be done if the conditions are right, but you'd be best to prove it first with reference to the POH.
The only benefit I observed over the years with the low tail Cherokees is that the nosewheel can be lifted earlier using the propwash, but then a balance has to be struck with the consequent induced drag this presents.
No doubt I will be slated by other posters for not doing the performance calculations (as would your insurers!) but the fact remains, I've never had any problems with due caution exercised. As another poster declared, six cylinder Cessna singles are more capable on grass.
In summary, it can be done if the conditions are right, but you'd be best to prove it first with reference to the POH.
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According to my copy of the POH,
Level, dry paved runway,
Sea level, standard temperature
No wind
25 degree flap
Max MP prior to brake release
gives
Take off run 1050 feet
Clear 50ft obstacle 1700 ft
Level, dry paved runway,
Sea level, standard temperature
No wind
25 degree flap
Max MP prior to brake release
gives
Take off run 1050 feet
Clear 50ft obstacle 1700 ft
.
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The POH will give the answer for a HARD runway. There is no point in debating that bit.
(It may require quite aggressive techniques e.g. rotating just above Vs, with the stall warner going off for quite a while)
For GRASS, I doubt any POH will have the data because it varies so much. The CAA has for years been handing out a leaflet suggesting 30% is added to the takeoff distance for short grass, which may or may not be applicable to a specific type.
I would not take the TB20 to 500m grass, but 500m tarmac is fine at MTOW, ISA, according to the perf chart, and I've done it. Switzerland for example has plenty of 500m tarmac runways, operating all PA28 types, Mooneys, you name it.
(It may require quite aggressive techniques e.g. rotating just above Vs, with the stall warner going off for quite a while)
For GRASS, I doubt any POH will have the data because it varies so much. The CAA has for years been handing out a leaflet suggesting 30% is added to the takeoff distance for short grass, which may or may not be applicable to a specific type.
I would not take the TB20 to 500m grass, but 500m tarmac is fine at MTOW, ISA, according to the perf chart, and I've done it. Switzerland for example has plenty of 500m tarmac runways, operating all PA28 types, Mooneys, you name it.
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Contacttower,
The figures I quoted are for max weight (2900lbs) and as IO540 stated, there are no data provided for operation of grass. Let's face it, the IV likes runway in comparison to convensional tailed varieties, regardless of whether that happens to be tarmac or grass.
The figures I quoted are for max weight (2900lbs) and as IO540 stated, there are no data provided for operation of grass. Let's face it, the IV likes runway in comparison to convensional tailed varieties, regardless of whether that happens to be tarmac or grass.
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I operated a normally aspirated 4 with winterization (heavier battery in engine bay) out of 700m of grass quite comfortably, 4 up (2 kids though) and full tanks.
I operated the same aircraft out of 500m tarmac (POH calculations done in advance) and it was okay, especially with a 15kt headwind component.
Like IO540, I was not bold enough to contemplate 500m grass strips, but the aircraft owner did operate out of these and told me that it was doable with caution and good planning, e.g. know the acceleration expected against distance markers etc.
However he was far more experienced and a better stick and rudder man than me.
I operated the same aircraft out of 500m tarmac (POH calculations done in advance) and it was okay, especially with a 15kt headwind component.
Like IO540, I was not bold enough to contemplate 500m grass strips, but the aircraft owner did operate out of these and told me that it was doable with caution and good planning, e.g. know the acceleration expected against distance markers etc.
However he was far more experienced and a better stick and rudder man than me.
