(Loose) formation flying

[BackPacker]

Just an idle thought, nothing serious for now planned...

Suppose I have a need to fly two aircraft a fairly long distance (say cross-channel) and the other pilot is not suffiently experienced enough to make such a long flight on his own, or we just like each others company, and we decide to make this a formation flight.

Mind you, not the military-style, white-knuckled, wingtip-to-wingtip aerobatic formation flight you see on shows, but just a leisurely, safe (25 meter or more separation in all three dimensions) formation of two aircraft. Take-off and landing not in formation but separate. Assume two basic PPLs 100 to 200 hours each, no IMC/IR and decent VFR forecasted.

Can anyone give me pointers on how to do this safely, how tiring it really is, and how to handle ATC (incl. transponder) in a formation? Terminology? Other tips? Any legislation specifically covering this sort of thing?

[SNS3Guppy]

Backpacker,
75 meters can disappear very quickly in a moment of inattenttiveness. Something to keep in mind.

[Three Yellows]

Simple. DON'T DO IT.

Even loose formation is not as easy as it might appear.

Take off ten minutes apart and make your own way there.

Meet up at the other end for tea and medals.



Would be my advice, fwiw.

(600 hr/SEP/MEP/PPL/Night/IMC)

PS, A mate and I tried it once on a short hop, worst thing we ever did.

[Fuji Abound]

I doubt you would want to fly "in formation".

Formation flying is a definite skill and certainly not one to expereince with another pilot who by the sound of it might be a bit of a "novice".

Far better, fly "in company with".

Put more simply this is a very lose formation of you and another, in which you take the lead and he follows.

You would simply tell AT that you are G-XXXX in company with G-XXXX another C152 or whatever.

Expect air traffic to tell the other aircraft to switch their transponder to standby.

When you arrive at your destination you might want to sign of the company call with G-XXXA breaking company with G-XXXB and calling for joining instructions. G-XXXB can then call for instructions in turn.

You might also want to think about whether you are going to agree an air to air frequency and what you will do if for any reason you get seperated.

Also you will need to give your friend some advice on how to maintain the company. For example the cruise speed you will use and the position he should adopt relative to you.

Formation flying is great fun but at least take some tips on here from people who have done it before if that is really what you want to do.

[Three Yellows]

Fuji,

I'm surprised at you encouraging these people to do this. No disrespect to Backpacker and friend but, the clues were in the question...

low hours ppl and "long trip". Sorry, cross channel, even SAM - MP isn't a long trip for most.

There's enough to do if its your first X channel... without switching freqs to talk to your mate.. you should know how busy London will be if the conditions are good vfr as described in the question. Also mid channel, talking to London, getting the LFAT Atis, joining in with the 1000 other people over Bolougne isn't the time to be giving your mate a teach in on Box 2.

If you want to show him, fly together in one plane first.

Rant over.

[Fuji Abound]

Sorry crossed with TY.

TY is right, however flying in company works pretty well BUT it can be demanding in its own way.

The two aircraft are reasonably spread - whatever you are both comfortable with - AND I had a greater deal more seperation in mind than the poster!

However, the purpose in your case is to help the follower, but in fact the follower is working harder than the leader to maintain the "in company". On the plus side, all the time he is maintaining the company he really only has to worry about aviating, look out and Ts and Ps, rather than navigating or cummunicating, but he cant ignore these in case the company breaks.
If you want to give it a try you might do well to do a short trip with your friend first and see if he found it easier for him.

[Fuji Abound]

Three Yellows.

Sorry posts crossed again.

Yes, fair enough and I do agree.

I was so much intending to encourage as to point out the possibilities.

Also to be fair the poster did say "becasue we like each others company".

In the right weather I am not so sure it is that much of a problem.

I have done plently of formation and in company flying. It usually doesnt work because of a poor pre flight briefing, assuming the other pilot has sufficient experience.

Clearly it is not the best thing to be trying for a first time in c££p weather or on a busy week end.

However with really good viz and on a quiet weekday, setting up behind your friend for a x channel and breaking of the, in company with, well before you reach your destination is a very agreeable way to fly.

In short you need to think why you want to fly in company with your friend and what you are seeking to achieve AND if it does not work be prepared to break off AND for your friend to be certain he can complete the flight WITHOUT you as leader.

[BackPacker]

Fuji, thanks. That's the sort of response I was looking for.

So far it's just a hypothetical scenario, but you can assume that both pilots are qualified enough to make the trip on their own if need be. It's not intended as a cross-channel lesson.

More specifically, I'm thinking about the scenario where we would have three or four aerobatics pilots who all want to participate in an aeros contest a significant (two hours or more) distance away from our home base (Rotterdam), but the aeros plane itself can only take two people and virtually no baggage, and has a very limited (barely sufficient) avionics stack for long-distance touring. The other plane then would be an IFR Warrior or Diamond or something taking the other two pilots, the bags and such.

But don't worry about the exact scenario. Just interested in the technical/legal/ATC aspects of formation, or better, "in company with" flying.

Fuji, what's the distance between the planes if you fly "in company", what's the position of the chase plane and what sort of elements do you discuss pre-flight?

[FREDAcheck]

Take off ten minutes apart and make your own way there.
TY I'm not questioning your advice but I have a question. Is it easier to fly 10 mins behind someone not in sight and wondering if you're catching up, or 1/4 mile behind and in sight? I've not done either but should imagine both are quite demanding.

[rolling20]

As an x RAF display pilot i knew said to me after my first hairy formation flight:'Leave it to the people who get paid to do it!!!'
Enough said i think...

[Rod1]

I regularly fly in Combine with other aircraft. If you are over flying wilderness arrears, or water it can add a significant safety net if the engine stops. We generally fly about 1/3 of a mile apart, in good VMC.

The important thing to remember is that both aircraft must be capable flying the trip unaided. It is very easy to get separated if the vis reduces a little and very hard to meet back up again.

Rod1

[englishal]

DIY formation flying is the biggest cause of midairs according to the NTSB....Don't do it unless you both have been trained, and agreed beforehand.....

FTR, I like at least 10mins between myself and someone else.

[Three Yellows]

Well there you are, as with everything in aviation, many different answers.

But, Backpacker, you seem to have moved the goalposts a bit, originally you asked

the other pilot is not suffiently experienced enough to make such a long flight on his own,
Assume two basic PPLs 100 to 200 hours each, no IMC/IR and decent VFR forecasted.


and now you are saying,

More specifically, I'm thinking about the scenario where we would have three or four aerobatics pilots who all want to participate in an aeros contest a significant (two hours or more) distance away from our home base (Rotterdam), but the aeros plane itself can only take two people and virtually no baggage, and has a very limited (barely sufficient) avionics stack for long-distance touring. The other plane then would be an IFR Warrior or Diamond or something taking the other two pilots, the bags and such.


So which is it?

I would also caution against just listening to the answer you most like the sound of,

Fuji, thanks. That's the sort of response I was looking for.



please remember the people on here who have advised against it.

Anyway, whatever you do, be safe and perhaps get some proper training first so that you have the airmanship skills and the knowledge to answer these questions.

Can anyone give me pointers on how to do this safely, how tiring it really is, and how to handle ATC (incl. transponder) in a formation? Terminology? Other tips? Any legislation specifically covering this sort of thing?



Sorry, I don't mean to sound like an old fart, I'm a pretty adventurous PPL, tried it once, wouldn't do it again without significant professional tuition.

FTR, when I say leave 10 mis between take offs, what I really meant was long enough for it to be two seperate flights without bumping in to each other. 10 minutes is a very long time when you are sitting there waiting to go.

[BackPacker]

So which is it?

Both, actually. Using myself as an example: I have a little over 100 hours TT (75 PIC), done the aerobatics course and are now starting training for my first aerobatic competition. I have also been to the UK a grand total of two times (three legs as PIC), both times in a very-well equipped DA-40 TDI (dual GNS430, ADF, autopilot, mode S). If I were to have to do that in our Robin 2160, which we use for aerobatics, and which only has one VOR, no DME, no ADF, no autopilot and a GPS without moving map and a 5+ year old database, I would like to have a friend with me. Far enough away not to cause a hazard if your attention lapses for a dozen seconds, but close enough to see. The 1/3 of a mile that Rod1 mentions sounds good to me.

Yes, I know it would be legal and doable to take the Robin across alone but at the end of the day it is a minimally-equipped Day-VFR only aircraft. On a channel crossing, particularly the lack of DME, to back up dead reckoning, is something that worries me. Especially having seen the perfect-VMC-is-almost-like-IMC phenomenon. As Rod1 said, the friend provides a safety net that's pretty invaluable if something goes wrong. No better way to ensure a quick rescue than a plane circling overhead.

Having said that, don't worry about the exact scenario. It's not relevant. Assume, again, two pilots competent enough to do the trip on their own with spare mental capacity, two planes with almost identical cruise speeds, and a "loose formation" with enough separation to avoid hitting each other if somebodies attention lapses, but close enough to see. What's discussed in the pre-flight brief, how do you operate en-route, what do you tell ATC, etc.?

And once again, this is a hypothetical situation. At this point in time I have no firm plans. I'm here to learn about the risks and the rewards. If the risks are too great, I won't do it. But just telling me not to do it, without why, won't teach me anything. Yes, I understand that flying in a tight formation (and that is, as far as I'm concerned, anything close enough to give me the jitters) is risky. But flying approximately five minutes apart, same track, without a DME to give accurate position reports is risky too.

[Fuji Abound]

1. Select a reference point close to the airport. Agree to orbit at that reference point. Agree the direction of orbit, the height and the pressure setting to use.

2. Agree the aircraft to depart off the orbit first, second and so on, and as you are flying in company the distance, height and position separating each of you. Agree on a cruise speed. Obviously with aircraft of different speeds selection to suite the slowest is vital.

3. Agree on who will make the calls to AT and what information will be passed and if the company change height, direction or altimeter settings how and when these changes will be made.

4. Agree on what action you will take if the company breaks “formation” for any reason.

5. Agree on an air to air frequency if you are going to use one (and are permitted to do so), whether the aircraft each have a second box and can monitor a second frequency or how you will initiate air to air if the need arises.

6. Agree where and in what other circumstances you will separate from the company and how you will go about this. For example, despite the forecast, you are mid channel and unable to maintain visual contact. The follower might say G-XXX2 breaking company with G-XXXX1 will climb to 4,000 feet on 1015 and will route direct to Z.

7. Agree a clear strategy in the event of a comms failure of anyone in the company or in the very unlikely event an aircraft suffers an engine failure and has to ditch.

As others have said, if you are relying on the lead aircraft for navigation, then a company flight is a bad idea - you need to be certain you could under take the flight by your self.
Flying even in company requires attention to detail. You are using the size and relative position of the aircraft in front to maintain your position, but even in company the cues can change quickly if for any reason the aircraft in front changes speed or direction.
You are NOT flying in formation which is a completely different matter.

[formationfoto]

Proof, as if needed, that the word 'Formation' in a post can chill the blood of some and raise the blood temperature of others.

Suffice it to say the term formation if correctly used has a clear meaning to do with primary references and responsibility of parties. A loose gaggle is a different matter. There are many posts on this.

It is simple if you haveny practiced and briefed then there is a clear answer - dont do it.

Personally I would rather be five feet from an aircraft knowing where it is than fifty feet or five hundred feet and wondering where it has gone. BUT I have trained and practiced.

Having said that I was once in a jodel with no instrumentation on a club fly out over the channel and took the opportunity of tagging along with a Cessna 150 for the return journey. He had instrumentation. The vis meant that I could only just see where the water and sky were. Much easier to keep the right way up following loosely his wing as a horizon.

It was the safer option but I still wouldnt advise planning to do that.

[KeyPilot]

As a pilot who regularly (several times a year) flies very long distances (getting on for 1000nm) in formation, including a channel crossing, I am reading this thread with great interest.

I very greatly enjoy formation flying, and when done properly it is a major win-win for getting multiple aircraft to cover a large distance - the most experienced guy, or at least the one who knows the route best, leads and the no. 2 (and 3, 4, ... if they exist) only have to focus on their station-keeping. The minimum equipment requirements for the non-lead aircraft is lower (esp. no need for transponder), there is no need to be familiar with the route (but they will learn it for next time), R/T is simplified, and **crucially** it provides an additional safety margin in the event of going into the Channel - faster alerting of D&D, relaying lat/long of survivors, and can be helpful with overland situations too.

BUT - and it is a very big but indeed - formation flying is a very specific flying skill which must be learned. It is highly dangerous to engage in DIY formation flying (as someone else described it), whether formal close formation or loose formation. Crucially - and I disagree with some previous posters over this - it is a myth that flying in loose formation is more safe for novices than close formation, for two reasons. First, in close formation you have no option other than to be highly and minutely focussed on the aircraft you are formating on. As it requires less concentration, loose formation can lead to a lower level of awareness of the location of the lead aircraft - which is still quite near!! This could be - and has been - a recipe for disaster. Second, in loose formation you are naturally going to be less focussed on navigation, situational awareness, etc. Again I fear that this can lull the non-lead pilot into a false sense of securiy and can impair the process of responding to a changing situation. Lastly, in the event of comms problems in formation (which I have experienced several times) you need to be within visual range of the other aircraft to pass hand signals.

My advice is pretty clear - get some proper training in formation flying from a reputable outfit, which will cover not only joining, leaving and station-keeping, but also focussing on "formation management" issues: planning, briefing, hand-signals, dealing with emergencies, formation leading, etc. etc. Once you have had this training, go and enjoy it - formation flying is imho one of the most rewarding aspects of flying, and one which very few civilians get to appreciate properly. Until then, go as two singletons - it's safer overall.

[stickandrudderman]

Edit: I just read the post above after posting; looks like a close match in many ways.

So that would be "Formation Posting" then?:)

[Rod1]

If you look up the radio term “Combine” this will answer your question.

You must agree all the points before takeoff, as has been mentioned. If the faster aircraft takes off second he can usually join without ever loosing visual contact with the lead aircraft.

Flying 1/3 mile trail is not the same as a close formation. Two experienced pilots flying appropriate aircraft can fly the length of the UK with little problem provided the weather is good.

If you are tail end charley you are checking the leads nav, and maybe doing the radio. The aircraft not doing the radio will be asked by ATC to squawk standby. In good weather, it can be very relaxing. The gotch is that if you stop paying attention to your position and you suddenly get separated you are on your own with a very big circle of uncertainty!

I flew to Wick for the PFA rally this year. I flew in combine with an RV4 on the way up, and on my own on the way back. It was much harder work on the way back, but it was all really good fun.

Rod1

[Fuji Abound]

So that would be "Formation Posting" then?
Not with 51 minutes between the posts, more like I will follow you veeeery leisurely. :)

Some good posts but a couple of comments:

1. There are not many of substance. Formation flying and flying in company has associated risks and everyone has made that clear. However plenty is written on aeros and in the same way you would be unwise to teach yourself. Having given the warning "dont try this at home" the poster is entitled to comment on what is involved.

2. I am not convinced that two aircraft flying in company in good viz is quite the challenge some of these posts might give the impression. There are clearly some associated risks, but with a good brief beforehand, a text book understanding of the issues involved and a reasonable level of experience it should not cause a problem.

My introduction was many years ago not long after I started flying. It was a cross channel and the delivery driver of a Yak was a bit worried about making the crossing in poor viz and with barely adequate equipment. He asked if he could formate on me. Strangely enough not disimiliar to the circumstances outlined. Perhaps stupidly I said he could - I had never flown in formation before. I told him so. He gave me a short brief over a cup of coffee. Off we went, he formating on me - I never thought an aircraft could settle so close on my wing. The weather was rubbish but cross we did. I loved it and it got me started. I subsequently found out who the driver that day had been - I guess I shouldnt have been worried.

[M609]

I've been on the "receiving end" of several formations of GA aircraft on long-ish trips as a controller. When the pilots involved are 'professional' it's great. When it's clear that the parties involved are a bit uncertain about what to do, it's not much fun. (4 Germans doing a sudden "fan" split in between other tfc on downwind........ :uhoh: )

Many groups fly past here each summer, and the ones that I find most "pro", fly as singletons, and are obviously following a game plan with time and speed spacing.
(Long trail with 5-10 miles gaps, same speed)


As a PPL I would never attempt it without instruction from someone experienced in formation flying.

Our military customers never take formation flying lightly, for obvious reasons.
Would a MIL pilot accept to fly any kind of formation with a pilot who's skill level in formation flying is unknown? :)

[scooter boy]

I had an opportunity to fly my aircraft in a 4 ship formation at Sun 'n Fun 8 years ago for a photo shoot.

I had around 600h TT at the time and was very familiar with the aircraft but deferred the formation part of the flight to a very experienced ex-military training pilot who kept a very tight formation far better and more safely than I could ever have hoped to. The experience was one of the most exhilarating I have ever had in an aircraft and I can really see the thrill of it as well as the practical advantages it offers.

A few months before this I had attempted to formate with a far slower aircraft being flown by 2 good friends (one of whom was an airline pilot) up in Canada. It very nearly ended in disaster - I came very close to hitting them and killing all of us as I attempted to formate on them but bowled past them trying to slow down (at double their cruise speed). Things can happen very fast when you are close together, so unless you are trained I would recommend a healthy degree of separation.

IMHO It is a very good way to kill yourself and take a friend with you unless you have been properly trained.

SB

[gasax]

Read the Pprune for hysteria!

OK just me over-reaction. If people posting here cannot maintain their position at something more than 100m and less than a mile I hope they spend most of their time at the keyboard rather than in the air!

My friends and I have done a fair amount of flying in company. With simple agreed instructions and a bit of discipline it is straight forward, fun and makes for an interesting trip. As for dooming people to collision and death - get a life!

The important things are to have that sset of rules arranged, to ensure that if people don't or can't follow them there is an agreed fallback and its pretty easy.

We started doing it beause only 1 of the 3 aircraft had a transponder and with the welcoming attitude of many 'international' UK airports getting a transit was tricky. Adding the magic 'formation' to the call usually got us through! We still do it from time to time although now there are lots of (becoming obselete) transponders between us.

Stick to a spot - which the lead aricraft can see - typically 4.30 at 500m plus. Follow the leader! Especially on the radio! After the initial joining call split up and adopt line astern at suitable spacing - from there on its one your own - individual coms with the tower. Joining up - agree where and what height, breaking up agree either a frequency to call on where the others will know what your intentions are or another method.....

[scooter boy]

"get a life!"

I have one thanks, I thoroughly enjoy being alive and want to keep things that way.;)

At 500m separation you are practically counties apart, aircraft get closer than that in the circuit!

SB

[Mikehotel152]

Formation flying as though you're in a Vic over the Channel in the Battle of Britain or on a magazine photoshoot has got to a dangerous pastime unless you're well trained.

IMHO flying withing 25 metres of another aircraft is undesirable because of the small margin for errror. Say one guy avoids traffic by turning left. The other chap is checking his chart or avoiding a large seagull. Oops, you're dead...

But I don't see the problem with flying in company with set parameters eg two pilots in each aircraft so that the handling pilot can concentrate on handling while the other pilot does the nav/radio. It happens in Club Fly-outs all the time and is probably safer than having 10 aircraft converging on the same destination without any coordination!

And compared with flying the circuit at most training airfields where you regularly have 3 students or low hour PPL aircraft at various speeds and altitudes on each leg, not to mention the fancy-dan CPL students joining left base in twins, it's a doddle. :rolleyes:

[Fuji Abound]

Yes, I agree.

I think there is a huge difference between formation flying and flying in company.

The title of the thread is deceptive and there are a lot of comments about formation flying .. .. ..

so I think it is worth repeating formation flying requires training,

but flying in well spaced company if everyone is properly briefed is a different matter.

[BackPacker]

Is "in company" actually a properly recognised ATC term? What are the other proper ATC calls to make when joining up, when communicating to ATC that you're a formation (just "<callsign> formation" or something else?), and what are the proper calls to split apart?

I don't have CAP416 to hand here. Feel free to refer me there if there's proper information in there.

[gasax]

I don't hink 'in company' is in the book. But a little common sense on the radio usually works. And most ATC seem to prefer talking to a 'combine' - to use the RAF word - which we never did, than in talking to 3 aircraft any number of which might squawk.

Then use your normal calls simply adding in that you are splitting apart. Or that one of you has gone AWOL and is no longer party of the formation. As the radio man you simply have to use the normal calls with the additional information that either ATC or the otehr aircraft in the formation need.

"G-ZZZZ approaching blah for joining information. the other aircraft will leave formation and contact you direct for landing clearance" as an example when you are splitting up on arrival.

[Zulu Alpha]

One of the problems that i've encountered in flying cross country in loose formation is the radio.
Unless you both have two radios, then one aircraft will be doing the communication for "a flight of two? aircraft". They will have their radio tuned to the local ATC frequency and this cannot be used for communication between the aircraft.

The lead aircraft will be doing all the navigation and therefore may not always have sight of the second one. It is easy to lose sight of the second aircraft unless they are very good at holding position and height.

If the second aircraft gets the frequency wrong when changing from one controller to another, then he will have lost communication, so I have found it useful to have a "go to" frequency in the event you get separated.

The other 'issue' is where the second aircraft needs to get the attention of the first aircraft. If they both only have one radio this is difficult unless they talk on the ATC frequency (vey much frowned upon) or pull ahead to attract attention (can be dangerous).

So with two radios it is easier. With only one then you do have to agree up front a way to attract attention or to cope with being on different frequencies.

I assume that you have also done some formation work, otherwise keep at least a 25-50 mtr distance.

[eharding]

If you can arrange the necessary logistics (sole access to a Yak-52 or an Extra 300 for a week, budget for 15 hours+ flying plus transits; ideally you should be comfortable with flying basic aerobatic figures in a safe, smooth and predictable fashion on type) then the North Weald formation week, run twice yearly, is a fairly unique institution, taught by serving and retired military instructors, is the best way for a PPL - probably anywhere, not just the UK - to get to grips with the subject.

I'd argue there are two distinct, but related, aspects of the training.

First is the art of flying close formation - for the formation members, station keeping, sequencing of formation changes, safety protocols for joining and departing formation. At first this is enough to fry your brain - you've spent your entire PPL career up until this point trying to stay as far away as possible from anything else in the sky, and then to be flying a few metres from someone's wingtip, but with expert tuition becomes, if not second nature, another skill to be practised. As a formation lead, the responsibility of having another anything from 1 to 8 aircraft depending on your ability to fly smoothly and predictably, and be mentally far enough ahead of not just your own aircraft, but the entire formation, is actually a far more demanding task.

Second, and probably more relevant to the OP and the concept of flying 'in company' is adopting a rigourous and standardised approach to the pre-flight planning, briefing, RT during the sortie, and finally post-sortie debrief. The training emphasises planning every aspect, from start-up, taxi, take-off, through to rejoin, landing, shut-down - and plan for failures or emergencies at each stage. Assume that at any stage comms and visual contact could be lost - ZA mentions a 'go to' frequency, known otherwise as a collector; 'safe haven' altitude spacings for each formation member in the event of visual contact loss. Notams, diversions, fuel planning, weather.....plan and brief as much as you can. The more preparation, the less RT within the formation is required, to the point of almost trappist minimalism. The post-flight debrief is as important as the pre-flight one, because something will *always* end up not going to plan - if not for you, then for someone else in the formation - you only learn from your mistakes if you learn you've made a mistake.

The course *is* bloody hard work, particularly for the first few days. Its also some of the best fun flying you can have as a PPL, bar none. I've been lucky enough to attend three courses (and would be there twice a year every year without fail apart from the inconvenient fact that my fellow Yak group members are also champing at the bit to attend).

If you have access to the relevant hardware, and want to learn about formation from the professionals, then you should seriously consider the NW course - but failing that, get some training from one of the other organisations. Self-taught formation is a formula for the same pseudo-Darwinian effect as self-taught aerobatics - not survival of the fittest or smartest, just survival down to sheer luck.

[julian_storey]

Golly what a lot of scaremongering!

Flying in 'loose formation' with a friend is some of the best fun you can have with a PPL.

The advice given by Fuji on this thread is pretty much spot on in my view.

The key things to remember in addition are:-

1) Don't get too close. Sounds really obvious but it gets tempting to try to get 'just a little bit tighter' onto your friend. Don't! It's not big or clever. Just dangerous!

2) Don't show off / dick about.

3) Don't contemplate doing this with anyone who you think might possibly try showing off / dicking about.

Assuming two sensible, moderately competent PPL holders doing this in good weather, not getting too close to each other and having followed Fuji's sensible advice - this really isn't dangerous.

[Fuji Abound]

My goodness - why is it that there seems to be a complete inability to distinguish between flying in company and in formation.

I get the distinct impression that there are more than the usual number of people on this thread who have very little idea about either, never mind actually having done either.

It is really difficult to debate something like this if you havent done it.

I think you might what to introduce your comments by telling us whether you have flown in company and / or in formation. Tell us a bit about what training you had (if any) and what you took away with you from the experience. We might all have something to learn.

[Mikehotel152]

Firstly, we were talking about flying in company only. You can leave formation flying out of this debate!

Secondly, the fact that something is inherently unsafe is not a good reason for prohibiting it. :ugh:

One of the biggest problems with this country of ours is the Nanny State. Every few days there's a new government or caa regulation which regulates what was once left to an individual's judgment. We see it everyday; people who haven't had to think for themselves because they are duped into a false sense of security by adherence to rules. It seems that these rules are simply designed to protect idiots to the detriment of normal people. Flying in company is not against the rules, nor is it dangerous as long as it's done by reasonably competent people.

IMHO driving down the M25 at 80 MPH with a hundred other motorists, some of whom passed their tests decades ago, some of whom passed their tests but are awful drivers, and others for whom 'a test' was 200 Marlboro lights under the pub table. That, my friends, is far more dangerous, requires far more concentration and luck, than a few competent PPL holders flying within visual range of each other AND it's seen as acceptable. Let's get this in perspective!

I agree with Julian, what a load of scaremongering. It's common on this site - granted - but it's frustrating nevertheless. :suspect: The same people who make these comments probably drive at 40 MPH in the countryside - because it's safer - but then bumble on into a built-up area and past a school at the same speed...As long as people use their brains and training, surely this is all an over-reaction.

Bring on the flak! :rolleyes:

[eharding]

My goodness - why is it that there seems to be a complete inability to distinguish between flying in company and in formation.

IMHO - the difference has nothing to do with separation, but everything to do with training, preparation, and attitude. The military might typically punt around the place in a tactical formation spread over a couple of miles, but all of the things I've outlined above will still apply.

To return to the OPs topic - flying in company or loose formation to shepherd a less well equipped aircraft or less experienced crew somewhere - is not a good idea. I've been there, done it, and not in a hurry to go back. If you're not confident, or the kit not capable enough, to make the trip on your own, then come up with a different plan.

[Fuji Abound]

eHarding

If you can arrange the necessary logistics (sole access to a Yak-52 or an Extra 300 for a week, budget for 15 hours+ flying plus transits; ideally you should be comfortable with flying basic aerobatic figures in a safe, smooth and predictable fashion on type) then the North Weald formation week, run twice yearly, is a fairly unique institution, taught by serving and retired military instructors, is the best way for a PPL - probably anywhere, not just the UK - to get to grips with the subject.

Really? To me this suggests (since that is how you open your post) that these are the essential prerequisites for two friends who wish to fly their C152s in half mile company. I dont buy it.

probably more relevant to the OP and the concept of flying 'in company' is adopting a rigourous and standardised approach to the pre-flight planning, briefing, RT during the sortie, and finally post-sortie debrief.

I would be interested to know what was wrong with my preflight brief set out earlier. Simple, to the point and it works. More importantly it is not rocket science.

The training emphasises planning every aspect, from start-up, taxi, take-off, through to rejoin, landing, shut-down - and plan for failures or emergencies at each stage.

Ah yes, but given the scenario above and discussed earlier of our two friends, I would be really interested to know the essential elements of start up, taxi, take off, rejoin, landing and shut down that are essential to two friends who agree to meet up over a known land mark, follow each other to a destination and break company well before joing the curcuit?


Pure and simple I just dont think this stacks up - unless I have missed the point.

All very valid if we were talking about formation flying but I think we moved away from that many posts ago.

[eharding]

Fuji.

Extra points if you can work the quote attribution magic.


All very valid if we were talking about formation flying but I think we moved away from that many posts ago.


Well, lets return to the detail of the OP's query....


More specifically, I'm thinking about the scenario where we would have three or four aerobatics pilots who all want to participate in an aeros contest a significant (two hours or more) distance away from our home base (Rotterdam), but the aeros plane itself can only take two people and virtually no baggage, and has a very limited (barely sufficient) avionics stack for long-distance touring. The other plane then would be an IFR Warrior or Diamond or something taking the other two pilots, the bags and such.


I apologise for my less than crystal-clear style, but the point I was making was to always plan for the worst outcome as well as the best when dealing with more than one aircraft - and that close formation training provides an excellent grounding for this. As for the OP - he refers to aerobatic pilots - being a competition aerobatic pilot myself, I can readily confirm that I would sooner stick my end in a coffee grinder than attempt another formation/in company transit with aerobatic pilots without formal formation training - generally superb at the stick and rudder part, generally a disaster in the teamwork department :E

[Three Yellows]

Well the original question was

Assume two basic PPLs 100 to 200 hours each, no IMC/IR

Which is what has made a lot of us on here err on the side of caution.

[Fuji Abound]

eHarding and 3Ys

Yes, all gracefully accepted.

All of your comments are clearly appropriate to formation flying.

My point was that the debate seemed to have moved on to flying in well spaced company. I think it should be clear which we are talking about (and I do agree the poster started out by talking about "formation")

Given what the poster appears to be seaking to achieve and given the mix of aircraft I would have thought well spaced formation would be far better suited to his purpose anyway - leaving aside whether or not the nav equipment on one or other of the aircraft is up to the job.

[eharding]

I doubt you would want to fly "in formation".
Formation flying is a definite skill and certainly not one to expereince with another pilot who by the sound of it might be a bit of a "novice".
Far better, fly "in company with".



Given what the poster appears to be seaking to achieve and given the mix of aircraft I would have thought well spaced formation would be far better suited to his purpose anyway - leaving aside whether or not the nav equipment on one or other of the aircraft is up to the job.


Just make your bleedin' mind up, will you? :}

[Fuji Abound]

Well spaced company it is, and I meant to say. :}

[BackPacker]

Well spaced company it is, and I meant to say.

Just to clarify, it is also what I meant. At the time of the first post I did not know the term "company" in this context, so I used the words "(loose) formation" instead.

Initially I was thinking about 25-75 meters separation. I now realise that that is still too little unless you've had specific formation flying training. I'm now thinking along the lines of 200 meter plus.

I'm trying to compile my own little briefing sheet here based on advise from you guys. All good points made. A few more questions:

- What is the typical procedure you agree upon in case of loss of visual contact? My idea would be that the lead aircraft continues as before (same level & speed), but the chase will *immediately* climb or descend 100 feet (depending on its last known position relative to the lead), then reduce speed by five knots for at least ten minutes and continue on his own. A rejoin should only be attempted over a clearly defined landmark in good weather.
- What is the typical procedure you agree upon in case of loss of radio contact? Get level, rock your wings and break away? Continue in the loose formation, without radio contact, until close to the destination, but with the option of either aircraft being able to signal the end of the formation by rocking its wings? (Note - comms failure highly unlikely since in my little scenario, both aircraft have dual comms and there will possibly some handhelds on board as well.)
- Is there a formal "collector" frequency available, or do you just use 123.45?
- What position do you prefer for the chase? 4.30 or 7.30? Same level, slightly higher, slightly lower?
- One or two flightplans? And if you submit only one, how do you indicate/negotiate the separate take-off and landing without endless discussions and explanations to ATC?

(Oh, and just to add. My flying club has a group of enthousiast *close* formation flyers. They are currently displaying with up to nine aircraft in formation at a time, and they're simply being limited by the number of more or less compatible planes we have, not by the number of people qualified to do so. It is already a heterogeneous bunch with at least three different aircraft types right now, and more if you also count the engine variants. So if I want to learn how to do close formation flying, I know where to go. Only problem is, they train at Sunday 8.30. Too early for me and conflicting with other interests.)

[KeyPilot]

I used to ride a motorcycle without a crash helmet because I thought I knew best and it was legal. It was obviously perfectly safe because I never got hurt - mind you, nothing unexpected happened and I never fell off. :rolleyes:

The problem with formation is that it can go wrong, and go wrong very quickly. Again, it is coping with contingencies that separates a good, safe formation from one that just got away with it because the weather stayed good, nothing went u/s and no-one lost sight of the other aircraft.

I'll say no more except to say that there is a broad range of experience posting on PPRuNe; every individual can choose which particular advice they take on board.

Here, here

[Fuji Abound]

Here, here

Great contribution, well done. :D

(Head, bucket, cold water)

[Rapidly losing the will to live]

[Rod1]

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Rod1

[Blink182]

Is there a formal "collector" frequency available, or do you just use 123.45?


Thats a whole new thread ( or OLD one ) in itself :=

[Zulu Alpha]

Backpacker, Lots of good questions which do need to be thought through before leaving the ground
- What is the typical procedure you agree upon in case of loss of visual contact? My idea would be that the lead aircraft continues as before (same level & speed), but the chase will *immediately* climb or descend 100 feet (depending on its last known position relative to the lead), then reduce speed by five knots for at least ten minutes and continue on his own. A rejoin should only be attempted over a clearly defined landmark in good weather.
Exact procedure will depend on weather, airspace (ie can you climb). The main thing is that you both agree on what to do. Being in radio contact is by far the best. See comments below.
- What is the typical procedure you agree upon in case of loss of radio contact? Get level, rock your wings and break away? Continue in the loose formation, without radio contact, until close to the destination, but with the option of either aircraft being able to signal the end of the formation by rocking its wings? (Note - comms failure highly unlikely since in my little scenario, both aircraft have dual comms and there will possibly some handhelds on board as well.)
If you both have two radios then things are much easier as you can both keep one set on the 'Go to' frequency which can be used in case of loss of contact. If you do lose radio and visual contact then one should go left and the other right as previously agreed. This will depend on what position you formate from. I would not be in favour of pulling level and wing wagging. The lead pilot will find this difficult and the second pilot will have to move into a position that the lead pilot is not expecting him. Having a second radio is the best thing, if not then have a "go to" frequency. Agree that if you are not in radio contact then you are both on your own.
- Is there a formal "collector" frequency available, or do you just use 123.45?
There is no official air to air frequency...just make sure you use the same one and that there it is not being used by others.
- What position do you prefer for the chase? 4.30 or 7.30? Same level, slightly higher, slightly lower?
Depends on the aircraft type as you need to be able to see each other and this differs berween high and low wing aircraft. Mainly the aircraft in the lead will not be looking at the adjoining one, so its helpful if the second aircraft is at the 7 or 8 position so that the lead can glance at him. The following aircraft should only be looking at the lead aircraft so the 1 or 2 oclock position makes it easier. Cessna to Cessna will probably mean the same height or one of you will not be able to see the other. The most comfortable is with the second aircraft very slightly lower but again both must be able to see each other...and to have agreed positions beforehand!!!!
- One or two flightplans? And if you submit only one, how do you indicate/negotiate the separate take-off and landing without endless discussions and explanations to ATC?
I have always taken off and landed as individual aircraft. There are dangers with simultaneous landing. So I suggest forming up as you leave the ATZ and separating as you arrive at the ATZ, then each aircraft has established radio contact before their individual landing and can accept individual instructions for their separate landings.
The first time you try keep well apart and try it somewhere where you can both talk to each other on the radio and without any controller/A/G etc. You will be constantly talking to each other.
Let me add that I don't do or enjoy close formation work, but I do enjoy transit flights in loose formation ie 50 yds or so. Its quite nice to be able to talk while flying along with someone. This is also much easier than close formation which should only be tried with correct training.

[Fuji Abound]

All very solid.

I would tend to assume the radios might fail. Conservative - perhaps, but as ZA says it is straight forward when you can maintain radio contact but things are more likely to go wrong if you cant, so plan accordingly.

If you are operating in anything like reasonable viz realistically you are only likely to loose company because the viz has diminished substantially. If this were the case I would want a greater margin between heights. After all there is a good chance you will not "form up" again and it will become two seperate flights. Moreover you would not want any confusion over altimeter settings - albeit that would have been discussed at the pre flight.

In the terms of the FP, I assume you are referring to an international flight requiring a FP. Use box 9 accordingly. The fact that you are forming up shortly after departure and breaking up shortly before arrival is incidental if you are intending to fly in company for the route. If you break up en route tell AT that G-XXXX flying in company with G-XXX2 is now no longer in company but will be continuing in accordance with the original FP.

[BEagle]

The RAF teaches close formation first - to develop flying skills and the essential discipline necessary for safe formation flight.

Only much later is 'tactical' or 'loose' formation taught as it is far more hazardous for the unwary.

A few good RFs/FTOs teach formation - we run a course which used to culminate in 4 a/c close formation. (We sold one ac, so now we can't!). Of interest is that most non-military pilots are hopeless when it comes to RT discipline, check-in times, listening to the brief etc.....

And it is NOT as simple as it looks!

[Fuji Abound]

The RAF teaches close formation first - to develop flying skills and the essential discipline necessary for safe formation flight.

Only much later is 'tactical' or 'loose' formation taught as it is far more hazardous for the unwary.

So we just need to ensure we understand the difference between formation, tactical and company and we should all get on fine.

[Rod1]

Something like;

Close 25m
Tactical 100m
Combine 400-600m

Rod1

[Fuji Abound]

Well, at least that is two of us.

[eharding]

(Oh, and just to add. My flying club has a group of enthousiast *close* formation flyers. They are currently displaying with up to nine aircraft in formation at a time, and they're simply being limited by the number of more or less compatible planes we have, not by the number of people qualified to do so. It is already a heterogeneous bunch with at least three different aircraft types right now, and more if you also count the engine variants. So if I want to learn how to do close formation flying, I know where to go. Only problem is, they train at Sunday 8.30. Too early for me and conflicting with other interests.)


Actually mate, if you have a resource like this on your doorstep, I'm wondering why you're looking for advice on an internet forum. Assuming they're a competent bunch - and incompetents at this game don't tend to stay around for very long - then get hold of a few of this group, explain what you want to do, and the aircraft and pilots you intend to do it with. Listen to what they have to say.

There are some pearls of wisdom in this thread, and there is a lot of fluffy-minded tosh. Your problem is you have absolutely no way of knowing which is which for certain - so go and get a second (first) opinion, face-to-face, from someone you are sure knows the subject, and who hopefully knows you and the pilots you are flying with well enough to be able to offer genuine guidance.

Anyway, where *is* this aeros competition you and your mates are off to? - hardly the season for it...

[Fuji Abound]

There are some pearls of wisdom in this thread, and there is a lot of fluffy-minded tosh. Your problem is you have absolutely no way of knowing which is which for certain

I dont understand comments like these which so often pop up on PPruNe.

The interest in these forums is to debate the issue and hopefully to be informative, otherewise we might as well not bother.

It would be far more helpful to quote the bits that are tosh and tell us why or even the pearls of wisdom and tell us why. It is easy on the other hand to simply say some bits are tosh. It is for a similar reason why I object when people say - dont do so and so without any justification. It always leaves me wondering if they are just repeating what they read somewhere without understanding why. This forum is a good example. So far as I am concered flying in company is good fun and not at all dangerous if done with a sensible pre flight briefing. I have expalined why I beleive that is so and set out what I consider to be a reasonable brief. Flying in formation or tactical formation is a different matter.

We are all here to learn.

A good point in isolation about chatting to other pilots at the posters local airfield however.

[BackPacker]

Actually mate, if you have a resource like this on your doorstep, I'm wondering why you're looking for advice on an internet forum.

Simple. PPRuNe is just one mouse click away, and the flying club a 45 minutes drive - and then I have to get lucky and stumble upon somebody knowledgeable by accident or set up an appointment.

Having said that, if the forum convinces me that even "in company" flying is something you can't do with proper training, then the flying club formation team is obviously the way forward. But so far we've established that "in company" flying means several hundred meters apart and I'm not convinced that that requires some serious training. A proper pre-flight briefing, yes. Attention to detail, yes. Contingency planning, yes. Perhaps a shorter leg, for practice, yes. But a week at Kemble flying Yaks in close aerobatic formation... Not convinced yet.

Anyway, where *is* this aeros competition you and your mates are off to? - hardly the season for it...

Read my first post. It was an idle question, nothing serious planned. But the scenario I have in my head is to participate in one or two of the UK events in spring 2008, together with some likeminded fools, since there's only one event held in the Netherlands, and that's in the fall.

But it's just one of the possible scenarios. I first need to find a few likeminded fools and enroll in a UK event, and convince the likeminded fools that flying "in company" might be useful and not more risky than flying alone before this scenario would actually play out as discussed. The chance that this will actually happen as described here is very close to zero. Nevertheless, it has been an interesting discussion, even though it will most likely remain largely theoretical for me.

[eharding]

tosh

If you take a long hard look at the thread, you'll see that those who have moved aircraft about as a group for a living, or have troubled themselves to go and get some training in the practice - generally from the former group - have expressed reservations about the OPs expressed intentions, advised him to get some competent training & guidance, and generally refrained from providing a set of vague advice which he might be tempted to cobble together to form a set of guidelines for himself and his mates. I'd no sooner recommend a set of procedures for this chap and his mates to fly as a group, than I would offer tips on the finer points of competition spin technique to one of his aerobatic mates - without meeting them, you have absolutely no idea of of the level of competence or otherwise of those in receipt of the advice.
I'm sure you've had an excellent time flying 'in company' with your mates - in fact, I'd bet money you've never had a negative experience in the process. Long may this continue. I'm happy that I've done my best to help the OP achieve his goal in a safe fashion, based on my experience, for what its worth.

[eharding]

Simple. PPRuNe is just one mouse click away, and the flying club a 45 minutes drive - and then I have to get lucky and stumble upon somebody knowledgeable by accident or set up an appointment.

Having said that, if the forum convinces me that even "in company" flying is something you can't do with proper training, then the flying club formation team is obviously the way forward. But so far we've established that "in company" flying means several hundred meters apart and I'm not convinced that that requires some serious training. A proper pre-flight briefing, yes. Attention to detail, yes. Contingency planning, yes. Perhaps a shorter leg, for practice, yes. But a week at Kemble flying Yaks in close aerobatic formation... Not convinced yet.


Read my first post. It was an idle question, nothing serious planned. But the scenario I have in my head is to participate in one or two of the UK events in spring 2008, together with some likeminded fools, since there's only one event held in the Netherlands, and that's in the fall.

But it's just one of the possible scenarios. I first need to find a few likeminded fools and enroll in a UK event, and convince the likeminded fools that flying "in company" might be useful and not more risky than flying alone before this scenario would actually play out as discussed. The chance that this will actually happen as described here is very close to zero. Nevertheless, it has been an interesting discussion, even though it will most likely remain largely theoretical for me.


The bit about the NW course (not Kemble!) was more to emphasise that effective formation isn't really about the distance between the aircraft, but the attitude and preparation - its a state of mind, not something measured in metres.

It would be great to see you & your friends at a competition next year - the provisional calendar should be up on the BAeA website soon, if it isn't already. But, please, take some advice on your transit (from somewhere other than the internet) - as I've alluded above, some I've had a reasonable amount of experience with nasty transits to aerobatic competitions with mates who wanted to fly 'in company'.

[Rod1]

OK, well if I am talking tosh, I am also prepared to learn. So just to make sure I understand what you consider the position to be;

Flying 600m behind another aircraft is unsafe unless both pilots have had full formation training and a full plan has been prepared before takeoff?

Rod1

[Andy_R]

A little late to all this, but having had formal formation training and having flown in both loose and close formation, I would recommend some training before even trying to do either.

Tight formation can actually be easier once the skill set is in place. Loose formation has the added danger of losing sight of the other aircraft whilst doing a FREDA check or similar. Looking up and realising you cannot see the lead aircraft is somewhat sobering and is possible even at 300m. Everything then snowballs very quickly.

[M609]

Tight formation can actually be easier once the skill set is in place. Loose formation has the added danger of losing sight of the other aircraft whilst doing a FREDA check or similar. Looking up and realising you cannot see the lead aircraft is somewhat sobering and is possible even at 300m. Everything then snowballs very quickly.

Indeed

Yesterday the Swedish AAIB released the report for the midair between a C-172P and Saab Safir during a Civil Air Patrol (Somewhat similar organization) exercise. Cessna was doing a search along a power line, with pilot and observer on board. The Safir was flying chase taking pictures of the flight. (Pilot and 2 photographers)

Everything was briefed, and the Cessna was lead, and told not to worry about separation, the Saab would stay 100m to the left, 100m to the rear, and 100m above the Cessna.

During a turn one photographer in the Saab got ill, and the pilot attended to him. Seconds later he spotted the Cessna passing below him, and instantly heard a bang as his left wing struck the tail of the Cessna.

Now, both planes landed safely at nearby Østersund Air Base, the Cessna with a jammed rudder.

3ft lower for the Saab, and five people would most likely have perished. :sad:

For scandi readers:
http://www.havkom.se/virtupload/news/rl2007_19.pdf

[KeyPilot]

A very good reason why training is a good idea before ANY form of formation flying, as ST wisely says. Extra risks, extra skills required, extra training - this seems to me to be a pretty straightforward concept

[Rod1]

OK, very interesting.

When I did my bit of formation training, we did not consider 600m to be formation flying.

In a busy circuit at an A/G radio licensed airfield it is quite normal to fly within 600 m of another aircraft without any formation training.

Most of my “close flight” with other aircraft has been in thermals with other gliders. Flying quite close with complete strangers with often no radio contact…

I guess some of you lead very sheltered lives.

Rod1

[eharding]

Østersund Air Base


Is that on the coast, near Fråggle Röck? - there does seem to have been some muppetry involved, on the face of it.

That being said, formation photo shoots do seem to offer more than the standard amount of potential for tears before bedtime. Non-standard formation positions, lots of farting about trying to catch the sun and that particularly fluffy cloud in the right place, lense caps disappearing down the back of the aircraft, and finally the budding David Bailey decides he needs a chunder. None of which help much. Doesn't mean you can take the rudder off the other bloke while wiping spew off the snapper though. I know, those that have and those that will, but this particular example does look a bit suspect. Börk Börk Börk.


Stuff about gliders, doing glider stuff.


Presumably you were wearing a parachute whilst doing all of this glider stuff, in anticipation of the sadly regular collisions which occur between our combustion-challenged bretherin? Or just a pair of rubber heels and a big grin?


600 metres.


Same day, same way. I can't see quite what you're hoping to achieve back there, other than deeming yourself to be a 'Combine' over the RT - and that term to my mind just evokes visions of a big lumbering thing, taking up far too much room and making a ridiculous amount of noise, generally just annoying everyone else going about the place.

Actually, if you're not confident any closer, trailing a few hundred metres back can be a bad place to be - happened to me once, before I saw the light and got some training. Following a Warrior in the Yak on the way back from an annual, at what seemed at the time a respectable 300 metres or so behind. The Squirrel converging from the right (correctly) concluded that the instructor Warrior driver hadn't seen him (because, as later established, he was dicking about with the GPS - lovely chap, now flying an Airbus) wasn't going to do anything about it, so elected to turn and pass behind the PA28 - roughly 300 metres behind. I don't think the Squirrel ever saw me, being fixated on the traffic he was avoiding. Valuable lesson though - either keep it close - and accept this requires training - or don't even try. Half-measures don't help anyone.


Sheltered lives


Indeed - they only let me out of the Convent at weekends now...compare this to the roister-doistering life let by our crocodile-wrestling, fire-eating future Red Bull champion, "Big Balls" Rod1. :E

[Mike Oxmels]

I guess some of you lead very sheltered lives.

I guess you have no idea of the experience levels (especially in formation flying) of some of the chaps who are offering advice here. Not having a dig, but those who formate professionally will be sucking through their teeth at the thought of low hours, PPLs gashing it and 'having a go' at formation.

A formal, complete military formation brief can take up to an hour (even when at the limits of tactical formation ie 2km between aircraft). If you cannot think why it could possibly take so long then maybe you should have some formal training so you realise what you're missing. There are a number of important considerations that are by no means obvious to the uninitiated. Admittedly, with experience and operational necessity that time reduces significantly but only after all members of the crews involved are sufficiently familiar with the SOPs). There are a lot of hidden dangers and if you undertake any sort of formation flying (or flying in company with) without sufficient training and planning, you are liable to get bitten in the ass by something you didn't see coming.

As with most aspects of aviation, (eg aeros, IMC) if you choose to step outside your training/ability envelope without due consideration, you may come unstuck.

[M609]

Is that on the coast, near Fråggle Röck?

No, but on Frösön, not to far from Bräcke, Åre, Mörsil, Åsama, Klövsjö... :E ;)

[SNS3Guppy]

I guess you have no idea of the experience levels (especially in formation flying) of some of the chaps who are offering advice here. Not having a dig, but those who formate professionally will be sucking through their teeth at the thought of low hours, PPLs gashing it and 'having a go' at formation.

A formal, complete military formation brief can take up to an hour (even when at the limits of tactical formation ie 2km between aircraft). If you cannot think why it could possibly take so long then maybe you should have some formal training so you realise what you're missing.


While I certainly concur with the advocation to seek proper training and gain experience in formation flight before attemping it yourself, I've been flying for years professionally doing formation work, and have yet to do a one hour brief in order to conduct a formation flight. Often my formation flights occur between aircraft and pilots that have never met. Often in the field at low level in unusual circumstances (low visibility, obstacles, terrain, and nearly always dissimiliar aircraft). A full briefing before arriving on-scene would be an operational impossibility.

My first employment after high school involved formation flight at low levels while spraying crops...which included flight beneath power lines. Not once did we ever brief a flight, and we might make a couple dozen a day.

Proper training, yes. Taking it seriously, yes. A one hour brief to go fly formation? If you need it, yes...but it's definitely not necessary. Not by a long shot.

[Rod1]

Just for the last time I would like to clarify, I am not talking about formation flight. I completely agree that if you are going to sit 25 m up to a few hundred meters you need the full deal, no argument.

Following another aircraft at 600m, perhaps in the circuit, does not require military precision.

Rod1

[Zulu Alpha]

One of the earlier posters mentioned something which is not obvious until you've tried it several times.

This is that things do go wrong very quickly. You look at the map, or refold it. Then you look out and the other aircraft isn't where you thought it should be.

Where is it?

What do you do?

Being in radio contact helps enormously, hence my comment about it being easier with two radios.

Its surprising how many blind spots there are and while you are rapidly scanning to find your partner, there may be radio calls from ATC, handover to another controller, other traffic, navigation etc etc to take care of...as well as flying the aircraft!!!

So for the first time make sure you are in radio contact on a fequency that you can both talk on. Then if either of you loses contact you can immediately say so on the radio. You can also warn your partner about height and course changes etc.

[englishal]

No, but on Frösön, not to far from Bräcke, Åre, Mörsil, Åsama, Klövsjö...

And last night (well, it is always night here :}) I just had an Arctic beer at the most northerly town in the world (so they like to say) ;)

[Mike Oxmels]

SNS3Guppy,

I think we are singing from the same hymn sheet here. You just chose to quote me selectively, not mentioning:

with experience and operational necessity that time reduces significantly but only after all members of the crews involved are sufficiently familiar with the SOPs

A first timer with no formal formation training will not have 'sufficient familiarity with the SOPs' and if his formation brief takes only 5 minutes it is most likely because important aspects have not been considered. If experienced crews' formation brief takes only 5 minutes it is because some things can be left unsaid because all members are already intimately familiar with that type of flying.


Rod,
With regards to your last post, let's not get tied up in terminology. You and many others may use the terms 'formation' and 'in company with' whereas others use 'close formation' and 'loose/battle/tactical formation' respectively. Therefore, 600m separation, would still be referred to as formation by many posters here. In fact 2000m would still be treated as formation, in terms of administration, briefing, planning and operating by those with military backgrounds.

Talking about the circuit is a red herring, because the movement and intentions of aircraft in the circuit are by definition explicit and predictable. This is not so elsewhere.

The general perception is that you'll sit nicely in position relative to the lead, he'll always be in the same spot in the windscreen, the weather will be fine, the comms will be snagless, nav will be easy, lead won't do anything 'unusual', there won't be any tech snags, lead will consider 2 in his decision making etc. etc.

In reality this will never happen. Something unexpected will always occur, and this is where training, planning and briefing become important.

[Jerico]

My thinking is assuming first that the following aircraft is either single seater or occupied by only one pilot plus passengers who cannot be relied on to help in this scenario. Also that the pilots have no prior experience.
The lead aircraft is responsible for all navigating and radio calls and is responsible for the safety of the formation.
The formatting aircraft is responsible for not hitting the leader, maintaining position and for the safety of his/her aircraft. The following aircraft will listen out on the radio and keep a mental picture of where he/she is, it is best not to look at maps etc, these few seconds could spell disaster, at first. I would suggest flying behind and slightly to one side at whatever distance you feel safe, then add a bit. If you want to add a bit more safety then fly slightly lower if this helps to see the lead aircraft against the horizon.
The following scenario should be covered in the briefing. If the following aircraft loses the leader he has 5-10 seconds, could be less to make a decision. If the leader is to his right he turns left, away from potential danger of collision and then checks for the leader. Do you rejoin depends on circumstances.
Again prepare at the briefing for what happens if visibility deteriorates, what do you do? Depends on experience, if you already have experience you would get closer, if not you might have to abandon the formation.
The briefing is there to concentrate on what happens if something unexpected happens, the leader has to turn rapidly to avoid a collision with another aircraft or weather. Engine failure, radio failure, air traffic control instructions that could cause confusion, particular detail should be done on what happens at arrival at destination, how is the formation to be ended. Practice all of these from your home airfield first or do a short cross country flight to a place you regularly visit to build up some experience. If you are flying different types you need to be aware of the different performances of the aircraft and practice for this as well. If air traffic ask you to descend by 2-3000 ft quickly, then how do you handle this safely for both aircraft.
My last comment is do not push yourself beyond your capabilities, trying to do 2-3 hour flight like this for the very first time is very exhausting and your landing(s) will show it!
There are many points that others have already added and I am sure going by the number of posts many more will come. Practice and briefings are the things that will save you though! Enjoy yourself:)
If there are two pilots in the following aircraft, one pilot must have responsibilities on maintaining watch on the leader, decide at the briefing who is in charge of maintaining formation and who is flying the aircraft.