Mixed Flight Crew (m/f) a Human Factors Issue in any airline ?

[RvB]

Not really fiting in in the tec section , I know – but the right place to reach fellow professionals, I think.


According to my experience as an airline captain it indeed matters if the other crewmember is male or female. I´am wondering if I´am the only one feeling that way and if adressing this issue is overdue and sometimes avoided due to an PC-driven attitude. To make my point clear : I´am not against women in multicrew cockpits, however we are discussing all kinds of human factors related issues. My impression is that this one is not adressed in a proper manner – and we need to sharpen our awareness also in that respect.


Any thoughts on this one ? Thanks, RvB.

[Mercenary Pilot]

Why does it matter? :confused:

[Caudillo]

To my mind this all has the potential to become very divisive. Although that said, I think RvB is asking a legitimate question. In reply to FO Kite

Surely a first officer with a professional pilot's licence and selected for the job is just that - a competent pilot irrespective of sex, race or cultural background?

You would hope. However, some of the big scare stories apart, I'm sure the experiences of expat pilots, or contractors would illustrate that cultural background does indeed become an issue in certain flightdecks and situations. Gender (and I'm going down a blind alley here) informs also a great deal of things - I'm thinking literature for example - and whilst I'm as unqualified as you can get to comment on this, it is not impossible that the question of gender merits discussion per se.

[Mercenary Pilot]

I think RvB is asking a legitimate question.:confused:

And what IS that question exactly?

[Whirlygig]

Not really fiting in in the tec section , I know – but the right place to reach fellow professionals, I think.
I would have thought Safety and CRM would have been a better forum? I cannot see the relevance to Tech Log at all. You cannot seriously consider this to be the only forum where professionals "hang out"?

According to my experience as an airline captain it indeed matters if the other crewmember is male or female
Does it? Why? What is your experience? Really!

I´am wondering if I´am the only one feeling that way and if adressing this issue is overdue and sometimes avoided due to an PC-driven attitude.
Oh believe me, there are hundreds who think the way you do as I am sure you realise if you'd spent any time in a crew room.

To make my point clear : I´am not against women in multicrew cockpits,
So why raise the issue?

however we are discussing all kinds of human factors related issues.

Which are?

My impression is that this one is not adressed in a proper manner – and we need to sharpen our awareness also in that respect.


If I had a penny for every time I have seen this subject raised on one or another forum of Pprune, then I would have 56pence!

Any thoughts on this one ? Thanks, RvB.
Plenty :rolleyes:


There are good pilots and there are bad pilots. Some good pilots are men and some bad pilots are women and VICE VERSA!!!

Cheers

Whirls



At least female pilots tend to smell nicer!!!

[No_Speed_Restriction]

At least female pilots tend to smell nicer!!!

Is that a night-stop related observation?:ouch:

[Caudillo]

And what IS that question exactly?

My guess is - does a mixed sex flightdeck have any notable difference or occasion any performance issues in comparison to the standard double XY setup? It is however RvBs question so I'd imagine he's best placed to respond. That's how I read it anyhow.

You are allowed to talk about inveterate differences amongst people without it being denigrating by the way..

[RvB]

Maybe I see a potential for problems, whereas I´am the problem.
Maybe I just had bad luck in flying with female copilots who were not properly qualified.
I don´t think so.


The question is :


Is there any relationship between flightcrew performance and gender-constellation ?
As captain I try to achieve best results out of the crew´s cooperation I find myself working together with and which I´am leading as a commander. How can I fulfill this task without being aware of Human Factors in general and specifically in regard to gender ?
No matter how hard we try to turn down the facts – in the end we must accept that we´re human beings and sometimes beings with differences in the way we function, behave, react, communicate and so on. Quality and magnitude of differences among male pilots I see is by far smaller than between male and female pilots. I´am not ranking those differences, nor do I say it´s an impossible thing to manage.
The important point is knowing the differences, the traps, the potential of arising problems causing degradation of team performance.
Experience showed me that things work out better, if I sharpen my awareness related to the fact that my copilot is female before going to briefing.
Yes right, we aquired our licences. Yes right, we passed our entry procedures at an airline. Still, apart from our knowledge and our skills that are asked for to sit in the right or left seat of an airliner there are important differences (as we all know) in perception, communication, reaction to imputs driven by patterns laid down in our early education, socialization and our instincts. We are not the same beings – and I find demanding exactly that is quite naive.
Flightcrew performance is dependend from the way two human beings cooperate.


Certainly : We are pilots, not a psychologists and doing things by intuition is good and often enough. Unfortunately not always. Awareness and anticipation is important.
Reading some of above posts confirms my thought of this issue being a taboo-issue.


RvB

[Whirlygig]

One of the dangers with any topic such as this is generalisation.

One cannot say, "men behave like this, women behave like that". We are all individuals and should be treated as such. Common themes such as courtesy, being even-tempered, fair should run through any working relationship.

A lot of women do not respond well to agression; neither do a lot of men but the reaction could well be different but, as a man, you might be more likely to expect the reaction.

A lot of women do not have egos like some men do. Some men might find that hard to comprehend.

But, I re-iterate, we are all individuals; try getting to know the person, try treating all people equally. If some respond well and others don't (whether male or female), then ask yourself why. Did you handle a situation well?

Also, think about all your co-pilots; are all the bad female? Common sense should say that on the law of averages, you must have had some crap male pilots and some good female ones. Just have a think about the percentages involved.

If you're not getting the best out of your female pilots, are you trying to treat them differently like they're another species?

I do think you need to look to yourself as well.

Cheers

Whirls

[kiwi chick]

Well articulated Whirls

I was going to ask (as many have) - what is your actual question? Or what is it that you see as issues?

But then you made this comment:

Maybe I just had bad luck in flying with female copilots who were not properly qualified.

And I guess I don't need to ask anymore.

Yet another reason that Airline flying doesn't rock my boat.

KC :ok:

[Old Smokey]

I can identify one significant problem with a mixed sex crew complement in a multi-crew environment, and that is that if a crew member finds a mixed crew to be a problem to himself or herself, they should consider work elsewhere. If they wish to keep flying, perhaps single pilot operations might be a suitable alternative.

The same thoughts extend to differing sexual preferences, race, religion, etc. in the cockpit.

It's an entirely different issue if a mixed crew results in under qualified people being awarded jobs pursuant to filling a politically correct "quota", or national pride puts similarly under qualified nationals in the cockpit to "balance" the numbers with expatriate crew.

Regards,

Old Smokey

[Flight Detent]

Hey 'Old Smokey'

Seems from your last para that you've flown for AAI for some period of your career!

I'll leave it at that...Oh, the stories...and I was there to see it!

Cheers...FD

[Admiral346]

"If God would have wanted women to fly, the sky would be pink..."

No, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have... but it had to get out there...

Actually, all the female FO's I have flown with, have performed just fine, all up to standard, some better then others, some worse, but no substandard performance. Just as with the male ones.
I just tend to behave a little different, watching my mouth a little more, to not offend anyone. But that's MY problem, not theirs.

But I cannot confirm the smelling part after my last tour with a female FO...

Nic

[dscartwright]

Sorry RvB, but I think you've come to the wrong conclusion by artificially tightening the specification of the problem.

It's definitely true that when certain men and certain women are made to work together, they don't do so particularly effectively. However, this merely an instance of a more general problem, namely that in some cases, two people of any gender/race/religion combination working together don't do so effectively.

The law of averages implies that there are cases where a woman got a flight crew job despite being less good than a man who was up for that job, either through a company desire to redress the gender balance or maybe even a lecherous senior captain making the decision. Similarly, it is inevitably true that there are blokes who got the job instead of a woman as a result of dodgy perceptions, the old-boys club or good old-fashioned chauvinism. It's the same in any industry - I've been lumbered with plenty of useless IT muppets of both genders over the years, for instance.

But it's not true that mixed gender flight crews are less good than single gender ones. It's entirely down to the individuals.

[RvB]

Thanks for your inputs !
RvB

[Grasscarp]

I used to teach Human Performance and Limitations, and I found it strange that no mention was ever made of women in regards to flying. We are not the same, and I personally think it would be appropriate to make some reference to the subject in the psychological aspects, if not the physical. I hope nobody takes this the wrong way, but we are restricted for example by pregnancy. The differences should maybe be addressed somewhere in HPL and/or CRM.

[Whirlygig]

but we are restricted for example by pregnancy

Not all women are!!!!

What differences actually need to be mentioned? On average, women are shorter and not as strong as men. Does this need to be pointed out on a course? Other physical differences? Well, er, I find a four-point harness uncomfortable. Psychological differences? Sorry, that comes under the category of generalisation; that's why it's never covered in HPL.

The issue that everyone is skirting round is the dreaded period and PMT. But what to say? Well, if affects women differently and there are no generalisations. Honestly, there aren't. Some women can get grumpy, some don't. But hey! we've all had a grumpy male colleague; what's their excuse!!!!!

Cheers

Whirls

[tgflyer]

Good point Whirlygig! :D

Maybe I just had bad luck in flying with female copilots who were not properly qualified.RvB, here's an example for you:

A few years ago, we had to train a mixed crew for a charter company. On the first day of sim training, the guy comes up and says to his female sim partner: "I have had very bad experiences flying with female pilots, so I would like you to know that if I get upset with you, it's nothing personal. Just bad experience."
:eek:

The outcome of the week of sim training was that she had passed the course with flying colors, while he needed some extra work.

I am sorry to hear that you've had some bad experiences, but don't generalise.
Nowadays, the number of female pilots is still very small, which "causes" those bad experiences to startle you. I am sure, however, that you've had the same number (or even more) of questionable male pilots sitting next to you.

Regards,

TG

[Grasscarp]

When I said that all women were restricted by pregnancy, I was referring to the letter that came with the first licence issued to every female saying that you must inform the CAA on confirmation of pregancy. Morning sickness could be an issue and there comes a point when you can no longer fly. There are also issues with cosmic radiation and pregnancy, and the gliding association has guidance to not fly above 5000 ft if pregnant. On the psychological front I was thinking of gender issues, which can arise. Whether this should be a problem or not, there have been issues in the past and no doubt will be in the future. In my opinion this is a valid topic of discussion in CRM courses, and in HPL too.

[Caudillo]

However, it is a verboten subject. For certain reasons people are conditioned to be allergic to certain subjects regarding individuals equalty or not.

This said, it may be for the best seeing as the vast majority are simply pilots and any inputs would be apocryphal at best, "she pressed the button this way whilst all men do it the other way". In fairness, I sincerly doubt the pilot community has much to contribute to this unspeakable subject.

[Whirlygig]

It's not that it's a verboten subject but that it's been done to death before.

There MAY be some general differences between men and women but they are just that; general. Some women have more testosterone than others and some men have more oestrogen than others. Whilst their sexuality is not in question, the way in which they think may not follow the "conventions".

Therefore, if you treat everyone as an individual with their own quirks and personality, you'll get along just fine.

Cheers

Whirls

[merlinxx]

Perhaps you should direct a few questions to ex Dan Air crews. Ask about Captain Yvonne Pope, 1st Female UK Airline Captain in 1975, also 1st Jet Capt. Yvonne also was the 1st UK Female ATCO in 1960.

All the folks that I knew who flew with Yvonne, had no problems it seems.

I seem to remember that People Express (may be Braniff) had the 1st B747 Female Capt to chug across the OGIN EWR/LGW, correct me if I'm wrong SVP.
The name Rippelmeir (prob incorrect spelling) comes to mind.

Does this not reflect this really stupid PC attitude which has crept in to all aspects of todays life? Surely good CRM applies in the air, as it does on the ground, irrespective of gender?

[fernytickles]

As the eminently wealthy (56p) Whirlygig pointed out, this subject has come up many times on pprune. It would be interesting to know how many times the subject was brought up by the female of the pilot species. I would wager the 56p that it is mainly brought up by the male portion of the pilot species.

How would RvB like to see this finally dealt with? Ban all females from the cockpit? How about banning all males from the cockpit? Or banning mixed sex cockpits? Why not go the whole hog and ban mixed sex, mixed race and mixed religion cockpits. There, that should solve all and any issues... Right?

Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? But is that what you are ultimately suggesting? How else do you propose to finally deal with the problem that you perceive?

Alternatively, address the problem directly on the day with the person beside you in the cockpit regardless of race, religion or sex. If you, RvB, find you have repeated problems with numberous female pilots, you might want look within yourself and ask if the problem begins there.

As Shakespeare said, "Much Ado About Nothing"....:ugh:

[tgflyer]

Bravo! Well said fernytickles! :D

[carholme]

Ladies/Gentlemen;
If one goes back to the early days of studying the crew environment in an aircraft cockpit and the evolving process to todays CRM. we know that the three main points initiated were,
Interpersonal Communication
Leadership
Decision Making
Time showed that technical skills were not a primary consideration, however cognitive and interpersonal communications were primary in the successful management of an aircrew.
It is not a long jump to extrapolate and deal with the word EGO. probably the most limiting factor in any people management scenario.
The old story goes, "In a group of people, if there is an asshole standing around, he is usually in my shoes".
Barring major cultural differences which may require more understanding and training, if the EGO factor is honestly evaluated by every member of the crew, management becomes much more effective because the "me only" is removed from the equation.
Whether you are pink, green, male or female should then be of little concern and all of us then have an input into good management and helping to reduce the human error factor. If I am open minded, I accept, if I am closed minded, I reject.
carholme

[Re-Heat]

You can generalise: men and women do bring different skills to the table. Where generalising falls down is in applying preconceptions, categorising a person as such without learning what they as an individual can do.

Generally, I believe it is true that women are of the same skill as men, but that differences in they way they operate exist - probably largely borne of our genetics.

Those who dismiss outright any notion that sexes differ are really putting themselves up to be shot down - not only does science show differences, but being PC is quite different from being a militant PC-enforcer.

In my current field, I have come across some women who are more pre-disposed to getting the task done - this translates occassionally to neglecting the big picture and missing key changes even if the detail has been completed correctly and as asked. I find that men are more pre-disposed to letting their mind wander on their task, allowing the big picture transformational items to be picked up, but missing some details.

Knowing how people operate is key to efficency in performing the task - DvB's suggestion that there might be a difference is a valid question.

As to why he asked the question - he may well indeed recognised that he believes women should be in the kitchen - many women do as well - this is largely irrelevant so long as you understand your own prejudices and work around them.

I challenge anyone to say that they have no prejudices whatsoever - I know you are lying if you say you do not!

[Martin1234]

I haven't figured out the answer yet to the question as following.

Why are men generally better in sports even if the sport doesn't depend on the physical strength of the player?

I can understand why men and women don't compete against each other in football, hockey, running etc. Why is it that females generally can't compete with men in sports like golf and table tennis which do not depend on the physical strength of the player?

[Whirlygig]

Not quite sure why you say men are better than women at sport? OK, the physical games to one side, I would suspect that the reason men and women don't compete together in golf is one of tradition; after all, there are still golf clubs which won't even accept female members!

As for table tennis? Don't know. At a local league level, it can be mixed as I remember my father's chagrin when he was thoroughly thrashed by a 16-year-old girl!

Equestrian sports are totally mixed sex and it's probably evens whether a man or a women is champion dressage, show-jumper etc.

Sport is very traditionally based and culturally based. How about .... why aren't there many (if any) black champion swimmers yet they excel at track events?

Cheers

Whirls

[Martin1234]

I'm talking about elite level, the best of the best.

I would suspect that the reason men and women don't compete together in golf is one of tradition

That is not true at elite level. Take the 10 best men and women playing golf at elite level on a specific 18 hole course. The best woman will probably need to hit the ball more times than the least best man.

How about .... why aren't there many (if any) black champion swimmers yet they excel at track events?

Different races are better suited at different tasks. Why do you think that dogs of the race poodle normally don't compete with greyhounds in races?

[Whirlygig]

Quite. I think you've answered your own question! Surely, it's one of physically differences!

Or perhaps you're after the answer, "that women are not as competitive as men"!

Cheers

Whirls

[carholme]

Ladies/Gentlemen;
What do sports have to do with the topic of mixed crew? Is this the kind of rationale that is used in your CRM thinking? As the sports question appears to have been raised by men, what do you have to say about figure skating where there are far more women than men? I guess that would not be a fair argument as it would probably lead to unfair and wrongly presumed responses about sexuality.
Here in Canada, the male domain of ice hockey has been virtually smashed with every small town embodying women's programmes. Are these programmes as good as the men's? Probably not if you are a male domain thinker but in fact they are every bit as good as the men's because it is a thinking game. Historically the best players have been the thinkers whether they are male or female.
If the sports analogy is in any way being used to justify male dominance in the cockpit, I feel sorry for how far we have really come in this business.
Ther CP in our company is a woman and the quality she brings to the operation is unique. Women have exceptional skills as do men but I can tell you that this lady has brought a new light to our operation. She thinks with her head, not her gender. I don't think she is good at any sports but she is not the CP because of that.
carholme

[Martin1234]

carholme & Co, no one has claimed that there are no good female pilots. I'm sure that there are lots of good female pilots out there. Having said that,

what is wrong with RvB and his concern that he has problem more often with female pilots than male?

Possible reasons I can think of are,

* As already stated, men and women focus on different things. Hence the male captain might not appreciate the way the female co-pilot solve things. On the contrary, do female captains find it easier to fly with female co-pilots?

* The "average" professional male pilot is better than the "average" professional female pilot, in the same way as the average professional male golfer is better than the average professional female golfer.

* It's easier for women to get employed as a pilot, hence the employers accept less qualified pilots if they are female.



I haven't flown in a multi-crew environment but I have flown with several instructors. I have found the female instructors to be less good and the one which had the least good flying skills, taking into account her flying experience, and a really bad attitude was a female. I have an open mind and I'm sure that there are lots of female pilots, with about the same amount of hours as I have, that are much better pilots. Having said that, I don't know if my experience that male instructors are generally better than female is a coincidence or not. It's interesting to hear that RvB also has found that gender is a factor to figure out the likelyhood of a pilot being "good or bad".

[carholme]

Martin1234;

Sir;

It is not a question of male/female better pilots, male/male better pilots, female/female better pilots. It definitely is not a question of better pilots, period. It is a question of pilots and other crew, regardless of gender, forming the best possible cohesive unit, in spite of ourselves.

As for the rest of your comments, I have no clue what you are talking about.

carholme

[Whirlygig]

Martin1234, I think your post tells us a lot about you!!

what is wrong with RvB and his concern that he has problem more often with female pilots than male?

Nothing, as long as he recognises that the problem might be within himself rather than with the female pilots concerned. Somehow, from the tone of the original post, I didn't get that impression.

On the contrary, do female captains find it easier to fly with female co-pilots?

As has been stated before, of the dozens and scores of threads started on this subject, every single one has been started by a man. Every one. No, female pilots do not give it a moment's thought. That is one generalisation I feel I can be fairly certain on. I cannot say whether I'd prefer a male or female co-pilot; there are some people with whom I'd rather not work and some with whom I enjoy working. I would have to sit down and think whether there is any correlation to their gender.

Thought about it. No there isn't!!!


The "average" professional male pilot is better than the "average" professional female pilot, in the same way as the average professional male golfer is better than the average professional female golfer.


No. :} The average female pilot has to be better than the average male pilot to be thought of as average!!!

I'd love to know where you got that snippet of info. I do hope this isn't your own prejudice coming through by making up stuff and then dressing it up as fact.


It's easier for women to get employed as a pilot, hence the employers accept less qualified pilots if they are female.

Some airlines may have positive discrimination policies; I can't comment as I don't work for an airline. I would have to take your word on that as you must have more experience in the recruitment field than me in order to make such a sweeping statement.

However, I can guarantee that in the highly male-oriented profession that is my own career, women do not find it easier to get a job at a high level. At a junior level yes, but then they hit the glass ceiling and cannot go any further.

Now, your last post raises some, to me, interesting points and questions:-

If you are talking about male and female instructors, then you are, ipso facto, a student. Are you really in the best position to judge their skill set?

Also, it is not clear whether you've had one female instructor who had both the poor skills and bad attitude or whether you've had several female instructors who displayed one of each of the negative characteristics you've mentioned. No matter. I am afraid that you need to look to yourself as well if you find that you can't relate to someone, or feel more comfortable with certain types of people.

However, if all these female instructors were so bad, you appear to believe it's because they're female not because a) they were badly taught themselves, b) just haven't got the hours yet etc.

Again, if those negative characteristics were found in your male instructors, would you assume it's because they are male or would you assume it's down to another reason.

You've got yourself in a loop now Martin; you are prejudiced. You may have had one or two bad experiences but you will assume, when you meet a new female instructor, that she is going to be as bad as the rest and therefore, any little fault she has will escalate in your mind.

If you cannot see that happening in your head, I'm sorry for you. The biggest thing you can do, is recognise it.

Cheers

Whirls

[Martin1234]

Martin1234, I think your post tells us a lot about you!!

Here we go. As soon as someone is saying or even alluding "females" and "pilots" in a not positive manner, the problem "always" is with the one saying it no matter what. I'll try to reply to your post anyway.

Nothing, as long as he recognises that the problem might be within himself rather than with the female pilots concerned. Somehow, from the tone of the original post, I didn't get that impression.

I didn't get that impression. Perhaps he was trying to be politically correct by not saying everything out loud. After all, he was mentioning the bigger span between female pilots as opposed to male pilots.

No, female pilots do not give it a moment's thought.

Perhaps because they normally work with male co-pilots and try to be forgiving to their female co-pilots. :}

I'd love to know where you got that snippet of info. I do hope this isn't your own prejudice coming through by making up stuff and then dressing it up as fact.

I never said it's fact. I just stated it as a possibility, please note "possible reasons", not that it is an absolute fact.

The average female pilot has to be better than the average male pilot to be thought of as average!!!

..but I'm curious where you got that information from?

I would have to take your word on that as you must have more experience in the recruitment field than me in order to make such a sweeping statement.

See above regarding "possibility". I have seen when recruitment in Sweden is taking place to positions where there is a male dominance. Take the military for example, I don't think that it's a coincidence that in some areas there might be a 10 times bigger drop-out rate of females than males. Not necessarily because females as a general are less good, but that it's easier for females to be recruited and there are less female applicants. If that is true in the European aviation world I don't know, I just said that it is a possibility. You say it is at junior level, which I suppose is applicable to RvB's co-pilots that he mentions.

If you are talking about male and female instructors, then you are, ipso facto, a student. Are you really in the best position to judge their skill set?

I was a student. I don't claim to be in the best position although I believe that when I had about 150 hours I could tell if someone's flying abilities was above or below average, taking into consideration the experience of the instructor. In addition to that, you don't need to be a rocket scientist (or experienced pilot for that matter) to recognise bad attitude.

I am afraid that you need to look to yourself as well if you find that you can't relate to someone, or feel more comfortable with certain types of people.

Of course I feel more comfortable with certain types of people, that's how humans are. One of the best bosses I've had (non aviation) was female but the worst one was also a female.

However, if all these female instructors were so bad, you appear to believe it's because they're female not because a) they were badly taught themselves, b) just haven't got the hours yet etc.

I just want to reiterate that I did take into account their flying experience. As you say, everything is possible. It's like those criminal law series you watch on television, where the defence is trying to find reasonable doubt, that it just might be something else that is the explanation.

You've got yourself in a loop now Martin; you are prejudiced. You may have had one or two bad experiences but you will assume, when you meet a new female instructor, that she is going to be as bad as the rest and therefore, any little fault she has will escalate in your mind.

That is not true. To be quite honest with you it's not until afterwards where I have thought of which instructors were the best and the ones not so good, where I did see that all females ended up on the wrong side. I don't know if it's a conincidence ot not. I suppose I need to fly with alot of instructors to make a statistically reliable conslusion. Having said that, it's still interesting to hear the observation of others.

If you cannot see that happening in your head, I'm sorry for you. The biggest thing you can do, is recognise it.

I think that your comment is the crux of the matter - it can't be discussed in a proper manner.

If I would have told you about the instructors, without revealing their gender, you would probably have said that I had bad luck and that instructors shouldn't behave like that. What I do is that I just say that I had more bad luck with female instructors as opposed to male, without drawing any conclusions. Now all of a sudden it's me that is the problem!

Living in Sweden I'm sick and tired of the "equal right" debate so I rather not spend more time on this thread. However, I think that it's a pity that the issue, if it at all is an issue, can't be discussed openly.

[Whirlygig]

that it's a pity that the issue, if it at all is an issue, can't be discussed openly.
If this isn't an open discussion, I don't know what is and secondly, (my emboldening), I don't believe it's an issue.

Why are these types of threads (and there are loads on Pprune alone) all started by men? Why is it always a man who differentiates the sex of the pilot?

Really, I don't have issue with the gender of anyone in any job; only with people who do seem to think it matters.

Again, your female instructors who were no good: was it because they were female, or because of other factors? Simply question!!!

Women are different from each other as well as being different from men. Men are different from each other as well as being different from women. What does that mean? Oh yes, we're all individuals.

Cheers

Whirls

[Re-Heat]

As already stated, men and women focus on different things. Hence the male captain might not appreciate the way the female co-pilot solve things. On the contrary, do female captains find it easier to fly with female co-pilots?
Important, correct, and frankly worthy of consideration by both to ensure correct outcomes. Has no bearing whatsoever on skill or aptitude though.

The "average" professional male pilot is better than the "average" professional female pilot, in the same way as the average professional male golfer is better than the average professional female golfer.
No data: what could be judged are aspects such as spatial awareness, nevertheless spatial awareness is proven to be a non-genetic, cutural difference between sexes.

It's easier for women to get employed as a pilot, hence the employers accept less qualified pilots if they are female.
Always a danger if positive discrimination is legal: irrelevant however to the point of the thread - dealing with women (as opposed to dealing with women of lesses ability, of which there are undoubtedly some, as there are men), but dealing with such an issue is not different from working with any other person of lesser competence. Take countries where this is illegal (UK) to make proper comparisons.


The issue with your three comments was the unfounded preconceptions in the second point, and the fuzzy third point, which is not the case in all airlines and countries.

The point is not that any comment portraying women as diffeerent abilities does not have some grounding in reality, but generalising that they are all of lesser ability, when the standard of judgement is irrelevant or misleading.

[Re-Heat]

When I have time, I'll find the citation for the point in bold above - it is pretty comprehensive in proof over a number of studies.

[Re-Heat]

Again, your female instructors who were no good: was it because they were female, or because of other factors? Simply question
Consider: would you find it harder to notice a poor instructor if you had a better rapport with him over the poor female instructor...or did the female instructor push you harder than the male instructor resulting in your flight being less successful in your mind even if you learnt more...

I'm not saying you didn't have poor female instructors (from what is presumably a statistically insignificant pool), but are you sure you can disentangle all these factors and assess the instructor objectively...

...as a student and not an instructor yourself at the time...

[SR71]

I fly with my wife all the time.

She is a right pain in the ass.....right up to the point where she reminds me to turn right not left.

Brilliant!

;)

[tgflyer]

One of the best bosses I've had (non aviation) was female but the worst one was also a female.
Do you really want to go down that route? I have noticed that you, just like RvB, are trying to throw some sort of statistics out there. You think that's gonna work?
I've been in aviation for a few years now, and I am sad to say, that I have yet to have a female boss. In other words, I've only come across male bosses, and amongst that I've had the best boss and the worst boss. Can I say now that male pilots suck? No. I was an instructor for quite some time, and the few girls who were students were neither good or bad in comparison to their male classmates. They were all just that: students.

I can understand if you walk into a cockpit and find a female copilot, then you might have some sort of alertness. But maybe that is your problem, and not theirs.

I appreciate this ongoing discussion. I just want to throw out there: Lest we forget that by the end of the day, we are all humans, and as such we are all fallible.

Regards,

TG.

[Admiral346]

SR71, I think you've said it all...

Nic

[tom775257]

While I will not get into the discussion at all, or reveal the airline/which group....

From a very reliable source, in said airline, per person, one sex on average produced around 10 times more (relevant) flight data monitoring flags than the other sex. So yes, in this airline at least, there appears to be a certain sex that performs better than the other at this simplistic level. It would be interesting to perform a statistical test on this to balance out the difference in sample numbers (Chi-squared? - long time since stats).

This has nothing to do directly with the initial question, but addresses the subsequent answers.

Tom.

[Re-Heat]

It may well do so under the misguided positive discrimination policies of many countries...furthermore the statistical samples are probably too low in many cases to run such statistical tests...