GA landing fees at Norwich EGSH

[Mike Barnard]

I was planning to visit Norwich today until told by the ramp office that their minimum invoice is an eye-popping 45 quid, irrespective of whether fuel is purchased! Has anyone else fallen foul of what appears (listening between the lines) to be a clumsy approach to exclude GA?

Mike

[IO540]

Yes, and they will also confiscate your toothpaste (not kidding).

[hobbit1983]

Yes, going there this weekend. Had initially downloaded their fees & charges .pdf from the website, and on the basis of my aircraft/pax, it was going to be more than that...so when I phoned up to get an answer, on being told it was a flat £45 my first thought was "ah, that's good".

Then that thought was swiftly followed by another, much louder "No, it's bloody not!".

Pity Hethel is a Lotus test track.

[Lister Noble]

You have Old Buckenham ,Beccles and Seething not too far away.
Much cheaper and v friendly.
Lister:)

[hobbit1983]

Would love to go to Seething - but the circumstances of my trip are such that it'd probably be easier time-wise to go to Norwich (who I'm visiting, taxi times, gotta be back before sunset etc).

And fortunately I have three passengers, who have agreed to share the cost of the landing fee between 4. :)

[Mike Barnard]

I may owe Norwich an apology based on their link:

http://www.norwichairport.co.uk/documents/NorwichAirportFees&Charges_Apr07.pdf (http://www.norwichairport.co.uk/documents/NorwichAirportFees&Charges_Apr07.pdf)

My reading of this is that a GA (i.e. non-transport) flight will only attract the stated landing fee, less 25% for prompt payment. If this is true then I stand corrected, however a real pity the guy in the ramp office gave me a bum steer!
Mike

[hobbit1983]

Mike - when I called up and spoke to (I suspect the same person at) the ramp, I referred to that document, and he said it didn't apply as that was for non-private flights, and quoted me the £45 flat fee.

Having re-read the document - and assuming that the Passenger Load Supplement/Passenger Security charge doesn't apply to private flights - for a 1200kg aircraft this works out at £8.13 x 2.4 half tonnes = £19.51.

When I did my original calculations I included these two charges, but now I think that the defintion of 'private flights' doesn't include these two.

Handling apparently does not also apply to private flights unless requested.

A bit less than £45.....But since it's a 'private flight' apparently that's what's being charged. Have you spoken to them since?

[Johnm]

For a one ton spam can the document suggests £8.13 plus VAT and Parking,

The sting in the tail is the £45 inc vat minimum invoice value.

If you could persuade them to take a credit card payment without issuing an invoice.......

Pig squadron anybody??

[Mike Barnard]

Well, having spoken to yet another very nice chap at Norwich I can report that they indeed are charging £45 for a single landing. However, I'm told if I elect to pay at the end of the month and in that time incur additional landing/parking charges then the £45 min charge will apply to the total bill ... individual landings etc being at the rate shown in their price list. Justification? Apparently the poor dears have to handle commercials out of the same terminal (just like Le Touquet / Le Mans / Deauville etc. etc.) and they've justified the outrageous one-landing charge on the basis of dissuading GA until another GA-specific handling agent come along early next years.

Wouldn't it be poetic justice if by then they had no GA to handle ...

Mike

[Cusco]

Has anyone else fallen foul of what appears (listening between the lines) to be
a clumsy approach to exclude GA?
Yep!:
Solved it by not going there any more.
Cusco:rolleyes:

[SkyHawk-N]

Total mismanagement of an airport.

1 - Put up GA prices to drive away GA so that they don't get in the way of the hundreds or airliners that will be landing each day.

2 - Realise that there aren't hundreds of airliners landing each day.

3 - Get all the passengers to pay a £3 'Development Fee' when they enter the terminal to get enough money to expand the airport to attract hundreds of airliners a day.

4 - Airlines operating out of airport very unhappy at terminal charges and reduce number of airliners landing each day.

GA unhappy, Passengers unhappy and Airlines unhappy. Brilliant! :ok:

[julian_storey]

Staggering isn't it :ugh:

I love this country but sometimes I despair at how badly the 'system' copes with light aviation.

[twelveoclockhigh]

If the £45 is a minimum invoice charge then the solution is clear.

Instead of landing at Norwich and paying £45, you go to Norwich and do 3 touch and go's before landing. You still pay the £45 they were charging you anyway but they have to do a bit more work for it.

If everyone did this then their workload would increase and they would realise that a £45 minimum charge is counter productive.:ok:

[Flash0710]

I did a wx diversion here last month. When i called up un-announced ATC were fantastic at slotting me in with the big turboprops and helis and directed me to a parking spot. Shut the aircraft down secured the machine as the chap who had been sent out to meet me placed hi viz cones around the a/c.
The dog and i were then driven to ops and the paperwork process began.....

Firstly. And probably best shared knowledge.... Norwich do not participate in the Wx Diversion scheme... They will reduce your landing fee. Which judging by the figures here, was a bonus. Noticing that this was a hi viz hell i also made a point of checking how i would be allowed entry back to the machine in the morning as the plan was now to leave it here over night. The landing fee reciept was to be shown. (would recommend taking your passport as i did just in case of any doubt)

I then had to wait to be escorted to the crew door so i could get to the terminal.

As i made my way through the terminal i was approached by one of the hot shot staff to inform me that there should not be dogs in the terminal.... (time for a bit of fun here ) " We have just flown in" [blank] In our plane.... Heh! Off i go to get the bus......(which is nowhere near the terminal due to "development")

The next day i arose to blue clear skies so set off (without the dog) to get the kite. I purchased a bottle of wine as i would be flying to a place far away from shops and was looking forward to a relaxing evening... Jumped off the park and ride and made my way to the airport information desk. I was informed that i would be able to get to the security area after i had paid the airport development charge..... bit of a scam.. Then had my wine confiscated as i was deemed a terrorist threat to my own aircraft.


I found the entire Norwich experience total arse ache. They have a ga side there why can't they manage GA? Anyhoo i'm certainly not in any rush to go back and if you need to go to Norwich there are plenty of GA airfields surrounding it that would prefer your pound more than Norwich deserve them....

Lotsaluv

xxx

f

[Whirlygig]

Have you tried approaching some of the GA operators there to see if they could provide your handling and maybe this would alleviate the minimum invoice charge? You might also be able to keep your toothpaste and not have to provide tickets and boarding passes for your pax (and that's not a joke either!)

Cheers

Whirls

[gcolyer]

You should see what Bristol Lulsgate are doing to GA!

They are doing away with the cheapo offer to GA because the heli's did not get the same break. So to land a PA28 at Lulsgate will cost £96 (ish) by easter at the latest!!.


To top it off Lulsgate ballsed up the plan to re-develop Weston heli museum as a GA airfield because Lulsgate said they wanted GA and would support it.

Luckily I fly from Filton or Upfield Farm.

[Zulu Alpha]

Not sure whether you could buy a bit of fuel and then together with the landing fee they could come to the £45 minimum charge.
Also, if I remember correctly there is a discount if you settle up there and then. I guess it saves them sending out an invoice and having to chase for their money.
I also believe they will halve the charges if you pre book a training slot. So you could book an ILS and landing for training. Buy a bit of fuel and walk away £45 lighter.
No one round here goes there anymore as its all yellow vests. Not all their fault really as the ramp has scheduled flights and they have to have security levels appropriate for this. GA with its toothpaste and bottles of wine gets treated the same. After all, you could just leave something airside for a commercial passenger to pick up.
ZA

[niknak]

Landing fees are outwith our remit, but there are are facilities away from the terminal and if you pay on the day you won't be hit for anything like £45.
If you park on the light a/c park and go to a hange south of hanger 12 you'll find a fully licensed resturant and briefing facility, they can't take your landing fee (for reasons beyond me and not for the want of exhaustive trying on their behalf).

The airport development fee of £3 only applies to departing passengers on schedules or IT services, it's charged by every airport in the UK but it's just that NWI, Liverpool and St Mawgan have had the balls to let folk know up front and not squirrel it away in the other charges.
Besides which it's optional and less than 200 out of 650,000 passengers to date have refused to pay it.

The landing fees issue is a worthy debate, but stick to the facts and do some research before you post, NWI isn't the pariah some of you imply it is.
We rarely turn anyone away for training, have better and more accessible facilities than any other airport in Norfolk, Cambridge or Suffolk and, as a unit, we often provide services for free that other airports would charge you for.

Cheers chaps and chapesses.....:ok:

[lotman1000]

The airport development fee of £3 only applies to departing passengers on schedules or IT services, it's charged by every airport in the UK but it's just that NWI, Liverpool and St Mawgan have had the balls to let folk know up front and not squirrel it away in the other charges.In a word..............................b*ll*x

All airports, repeat all, collect money from fees and charges, from which they pay their costs leaving a profit. The accumulated profits, plus a lot of loan finance, pays for capital developments in the future.

Separating a small part of the total charge as a compulsory "levy", especially when combined with the threat "if you don't pay you'll go on a database and cannot use the airport again" is a dishonest trick, needed mostly because the airlines refused to pay an even higher passenger movement charge at those airports and pass it on to their customers.

The levy is illegal under various laws including the Civil Aviation Act and the Data Protection Act, and if used to evade VAT and Corporation tax on the income it generates, it would be illegal for that reason too.

The levy must be declared by airlines as a mandatory charge, which in fact it is, payable as a condition of taking their flights from Norwich. Understandably they are not doing that, having fought against it in the first place, but they should, and may be liable to refund the £3 if they don't.

Every passenger should;

a) Refuse to pay, and then refuse consent under the DPA to having his/her name listed on the Airport's database. Demand to see the record in writing, and demand confirmation of removal, which under the Act the Airport must supply. The airport cannot then refuse use of the airport to that passenger, as doing so would be incontravertible evidence that the record is still there.

b) Report any threats to the CAA, and if that produces no action (likely, it's the CAA) escalate to the Dept of Transport and to Trading Standards in Norfolk.

c) If they do pay, demand to receive VAT receipts for the payment, showing the VAT collected and the company's VAT number. (Perhaps they do this anyway, but it's worth making sure).

d) If you are coerced into paying, seek a refund from the airline on the grounds that the payment was not included in the quoted price of the ticket, as the law requires.

e) If the DF shop staff claim that goods sold in the Departure lounge to domestic flight passengers are sold without VAT added, as they have been known to, ask the airport to advise whether they are really not collecting the VAT, or are making misrepresentions about what they sell and the price. Inform HMRC if the former, or a good lawyer if the latter!

Go fo it and good luck. These scams must be resisted.

PS The reason that only 200 have refused is that staff tell passengers that is is compulsory to pay if they wish to catch their flights, and that if they refuse and therefore miss their flights they will not be refunded the fares, holiday payments etc. That's what I was told before I paid; after I paid it changed to "if you had refused we would have blacklisted you, etc etc". Most people accept it as a necessary evil, which does not mean they do not think it's a rip-off.

Let me see; around £2m collected so far. That might be £272,700 or so to pay in VAT, plus interest and penalties. I do hope so, but perhaps it was paid.

[IO540]

Niknak

Landing fees are outwith our remit, but there are are facilities away from the terminal and if you pay on the day you won't be hit for anything like £45.
If you park on the light a/c park and go to a hange south of hanger 12 you'll find a fully licensed resturant and briefing facility, they can't take your landing fee

This facility has been alluded to here previously, using whispers and secret emails :)

Can you elaborate on where exactly one should ask for taxi instructions to?

Asking to taxi to such and such aeroclub is a standard way around large airports to get around the full handling charges, but it works only sometimes, and one often ends up parking on some muddy grass full of potholes. A couple of years ago I got close to a prop strike at Norwich when parking on the grass outside one of the flying schools, away from the main terminal. Disaster was avoided only because of my annoying habit to stop the engine, get out, and walk the route ahead checking for holes and dips.

I did this "aeroclub thing" at Southend a few times last year and the airport fire service had to pull me out of a deep muddy rut with a 4x4 and two ropes...

Norwich is a nice airport but they need to get organised for GA. They have enough security staff to handle a full Bolshevik revolution. Also, every time I've been there, they had enough empty tarmac to park the entire fixed wing RAF.

[SkyHawk-N]

niknak said...
The airport development fee of £3 only applies to departing passengers on schedules or IT services
So how does Flash get his 3 quid back then?

[niknak]

IO540 - Its at Hanger 10 - Anglian Flight Training, but I am obliged to point out that other flying organisations exist in East Anglia.

Skyhawk - if Flash went through the departure lounge he would have been asked to pay, if he refused to pay he would have still got through, if he did pay he wont get his money back, if he was departing via security as an a private pilot he wouldnt have to pay, simple as that.

Lotman1000 - a lot of hot air which is hardly applicable to any pilot or their passengers on this forum, only to passengers using the departure lounge.
Your advice would be better suited to the anti airport lobby web site, most of whose subscribers hold similarly ridiculous opinions and conspiracy theories that it's a secret tax evasion exercise.

[lotman1000]

Niknak

You are right about most of what I said being inapplicable..sorry to all. I'm still steamed up about it and forgot where I was!

However...

if he refused to pay he would have still got throughthat's not what they say at the time.."If you want to go through security and board your aircraft, pay up, if you don't then please leave the airport". Verbatim. It's no use having that refusal option but not telling people it's there; faced with a couple of heavies threatening expulsion people tend to fork out.

The tax question is not a conspiracy theory, it's a question. Is the £3.00 treated as trading income, with VAT being paid on it, or not? Why not just tell us, rather than resorting to abuse? I need to know; if VAT is paid I can claim it back.

[Whirlygig]

I can't see any reason why VAT wouldn't be charged on the £3. What Norwich Airport plans to spend the money on is of no relevance to its tax status. It's certainly not exempt from VAT and I doubt it would comply with any zero-rating rules.

Cheers

Whirls

[Cusco]

flybe, Norwich airport's biggest commercial customer has just announced that it is cutting all (admittedly only 4) its leisure services flights from Norwich.

Spokesman on BBC local TV tonight said they saw an immediate 10-15% drop in bookings when the £3.00 'development charge' was introduced, taking their flight costings below viability level.

Looks like Norwich have shot themselves in the foot bigtime...............

Cusco; from the land of H5N1

PS why does PPRuNe chop out my paragraph spacing when I post, reducing all postings to one solid, indigestible paragraph? Eh Danny?

Aha: just found the solution: don't 'preview' your post:get it right first time.......:rolleyes:

[Phil Space]

Norwich is another jumped up tiny local airport try to play big time.
The will not let you have an intersection take off and make you go through all the crap of terminal in /terminal out and screening which means, as they are quite, you are hassled.
You'll be in Norwich quicker via Old Buck and taxi:}
I'm off to the Far East next week via Norwich and I going to refuse to pay the
£3.00 surcharge.

[IO540]

Can one just ask for a taxi to Anglian Flight Training, without arranging it with them first?

I got an interrogation recently by Bournemouth handling, when I taxied to a certain maintenance company, to meet a friend who uses them and who was parked there. I narrowly escaped paying the handling charge because I did not actually have work done by them.

[Mikehotel152]

Compare and contrast Norwich's attitude with the US attitude as set out in the 'Why do the Americans do it better' thread...

Enough said. :ugh:

[stiknruda]

I used to regularly drop off Mrs Stik at NWI for her day job, my last bill put me off - £30! To fly from our strip to Norwich takes about 9 mins - to drive it can take over an hour! It was no longer possible to prebook discounted landing fees for training when I last tried. It is possible to piggy-back onto a regular base operator and receive 60% discount but frankly I'd rather avoid the place and the 6 minute taxi to Alpha hold for 27.

IO540, the area that you need to go to is hangar 12 via D. I have managed hangar 14 via E a couple of times but that just excites Whirly's friends/instructors far too much!! Good wheeze, though!

Flash - you are a dipsh!t. You could have landed your v noisy beast here, shared some of my wine and doggy would have had her own kennel.

Notwithstanding the above, Norwich ATC are amongst the most helpful I have ever come across, Niknak, DSATCO, P, etc.

Stik

[eharding]

Flash - you are a dipsh!t. You could have landed your v noisy beast here, shared some of my wine and doggy would have had her own kennel.


Her?...Flashy...what have you done to Bandit?.....poor little blighter....you haven't had him bricked have you?

That being said, if you haven't, and he takes a leak on my helmet bag again, I might just do it myself.....

[Mike Barnard]

All,
Thanks for these replies. Just to be clear, any fuel purchased is handled as an entirely separate transaction (Air BP, I recall) and does not form part of the airport's invoice.

Despite the very useful replies on Development charges and alternative taxy arrangements etc. the fact remains that on first telephone contact the clear message is that the bill will be £45 with no alternative. I for one will not visit under such circumstances and would urge others to do likewise.

That said, it would be a real shame to see the demise of GA at Norwich for want of a simple matter of 'putting the customer first'. But that requires a business ethic of treating folks as valued customers, not as two-legged cash-cows to be fleeced at every opportunity.

Mike

[Flash0710]

Yes sorry ehardon i had to have bandit de-nadgered as he was too much like his owner when he had them......:rolleyes: And you would be amazed how many people asked if i could get a 2 for 1.......:\

Thanks for the kind offer Stiki will bear u in mind as an alternate, what a cnut for not thinking that in the first place! Forgot you were up here as i am now too sometimes..... We should play more........:)


Luv

xxx

f

[Cusco]

I'd echo Stik's comments:

The guys in ATC continue to be superb: although I no longer land there for all the above reasons, I still continue to get an excellent flight information service in my E Anglian bimbles...

Shame about the management.

Safe Flying

Cusco

[niknak]

Lotman - no problem and yes, I think that VAT would have to charged as the company is VAT registered, whether or not you'd get a VAT reciept is another matter and I don't know the answer.

The Flybe cuts are no suprise, they went head to head with KLM on the AMS route and have failed to provide competetive prices, the Alicante/Murcia flights were very well patronised but were very expensive at peak times, again they failed to compete with rival operators and the ADF has no bearing on the passenger loads and it's simply a case of them utilising the aircraft on other routes with similar potential but no competition.

Phil Space said:
They will not let you have intersection take off, untrue, which is why we publish TODA/TORA distances from intersections B on Rwy 27 and D on 09, in the UKAIP and all the other up to date publications.
You will not get them unless you ask as it's not our job to encourage pilots to use anything less than every inch of tarmac available for take off.
The only time you may be denied is if you are going to get in the way of someone who will be ready to go before you, or landing traffic which requires the use of that intersection taxiway (usually a helicopter).

Personally, I find the landing fees to GA an embarrasment, I suspect that we never made any real money from GA and if a based operator was willing to provide for all their needs without having to go through the terminal, why not let them do so for the same fees we charged in 2006?

No, I don't know either.:confused:

[formationfoto]

Thought you might be interested - Norwich International managed to lose £411,000 last year following a year with a £294,000 profit.

The £3 fee is worth around £500,000 a year. The low cost deal with FlyBe is blamed for the reduction in income.

How about £500 per GA landing?. It would only need 1,000 of us to be foolish enough to participate and they could be profitable again.

[hobbit1983]

Well I've just been...(sensibly or not)...

Good
-ATC service, very helpful on the way in/on ground (despite my cockup - sorry chaps!) & out
-Being allowed through the 'crew' doors on the main terminal (pax very impressed!)
-Helpful & friendly booking out staff/ground marshallers

Bad
-£45 landing fee
-AirBP not taking debit cards (OK, maybe I should have checked that beforehand, but still. The actual fueller person was helpful though) & having to wait 15 mins for the tanker to turn up.
-Being security checked on the way out (fully; metal detector, shoes etc). I'm sure someone will point out a valid reason for this to me, but at the very least - why check the pilot of a light aircraft for explosives etc? If said pilot wanted to cause death & destruction, surely explosives would be irrelevant)
-Being asked to pay the "airport development fee" (I didn't). Although to be fair, I wasn't sure the member of airport staff tasked to escort us to the aircraft normally deals with the GA side of things.

So overall - nice place, great people, shame about the ridiculous cost.

[SkyHawk-N]

How about £500 per GA landing?. It would only need 1,000 of us to be foolish enough to participate and they could be profitable again.

Good idea, put it to the airport management! :}