Carlisle Lake District Airport - redevelopment

[clearfinalsno1]

Stobart Air Ltd are the owners of the airfield formerly known as Carlisle Airport.

They have lodged a planning application with Carlisle City Council and produced a brochure, both with details of development at the airfield, now renamed Carlisle Lake District Airport.

Airport Brochure (http://www.carlisleairport.co.uk/documents/Brochure.pdf)

Various drawings have been submitted to Carlisle City Council. The main one of interest is the overall airfield site plan (http://planning.carlisle.gov.uk/acollatepdf/160015_3.pdf) (1.69mb PDF). The remainder are available here (http://planning.carlisle.gov.uk/acolnet/acolnetcgi.gov?ACTION=UNWRAP&RIPNAME=Root.PgeResultDetail&TheSystemkey=46185).

[NorthSouth]

I wonder how the droves of rich American tourists jetting into the new airport will react to the tactical formations of Tornados zipping underneath them inbound to Spadeadam.

Sounds like another case of investors with too much money to burn.

NS

[S-Works]

I think it is superb, finally someone with a business head who realises the benefit of an airport and that despite the tenner landing fees and bacon butties it needs real business to make it work. The plan is a very joined up cohesive one.

I wish them every success and it will be great to have an Instrument equipped airport that we can access.

[clearfinalsno1]

I feel it will be interesting to see how the moderate GA presence at Carlisle will react to these development plans and compare or contrast this with the experiences at Oban (As discussed on the "Oban open or not" thread on this forum).

I see from Stobart Air's own brochure they already acknowledge there has been some accusations that they have applied pressure to the Council. Similarly they openly offer a let-us-do-all-we-ask or we'll walk away proposition (see the back of the brochure).

[scooter boy]

Good on Eddie, I say.

The man is obviously a fan of GA and wants somewhere to keep his jet.

Should be great for us and for the area.

More investment is a great idea in my opinion, the more the better.

The state of most of the tattered, crappy WWII vintage airports that we have in this country is a national embarrasment. No government investment means that private individuals or companies have to step into the breach to move things forward. This will be a brave and I am sure extremely costly move by Mr Stobart, the airport may well still run at a loss even after he has spent millions on it but the local economic repercussions should be excellent.

Only problem is going to be taxiing around all the parked green artics!


SB

[Bravo73]

FYI scooter boy, Eddie (Jnr or Snr) is no longer involved with Eddie Stobarts: http://www.eddiestobart.co.uk/About_Us/Eddie_Stobart_Directors.php


But this plan has still got to be great news for Carlisle Airport and the surrounding area. :ok:

[Capt Whisky Whisky]

Maybe Peter Jackson (Oban El Supremo) will apply for the airport manager position.


WW:eek:

[Sedbergh]

I've not got my half mil chart around to check, but is another chunk of open airspace going to bite the dust?:uhoh:
"Robin Hood Innternational" etc springs to mind on the other side of the country.

[Bravo73]

I've not got my half mil chart around to check, but is another chunk of open airspace going to bite the dust?:uhoh:



Why? Are they asking for a Class D Zone as well?

[Sedbergh]

First the planning application to Carlisle Council has to be approved, next a potential buildup of commercial traffic and Hey Presto! an application to the CAA for airspace restrictions.

Doncaster?
Oh and Mode S for all! (Paid for by us):ooh:

[Bravo73]

Oh great. The conspiracy theorists are out already... :rolleyes:

[Droopystop]

Why on earth would RAF Leeming want CAS? Has the RAF budget got so bad they're having to let Ryan Air in?

[clearfinalsno1]

What is the reason for the movement and realignment of the main runway and shown in the plans?

Surely the existing east/west surface would have provided good foundations for the new surface?

[Bravo73]

Probably easier to start again from scratch rather than have to dig the old runway up and deal with any issues that that might present. I'm thinking about dodgy foundations and the like.

Isn't the reason mentioned in the brochure somewhere?

[Say again s l o w l y]

This is a great thing. Carlisle needs redevelopment and a tie in with a company like Stobart's is pretty much the only way it will work.

People have mentioned a link to Oban, but I don't think the two projects have anything in common other than the fact aviation is involved.

Stobarts are setting up an airline as well, so for them to have an exclusive base that they can share with the other very profitable parts of their business can only be a good idea.

[Sedbergh]

Gentlemen
apologies about RAF Leeming references. When RAF Finningley was being turned into "Robin Hood International" a few years back, Leeming's future with the RAF was also in doubt and there was talk of another airport development at Leeming which would have effectively chopped off the Vale of York to class G.
It now seems like Leeming is staying RAF so no worries. I should have checked first.
Apologies again, references to Leeming deleted

However re the "conspiracy theory", regional airport development, whether or not a good thing economically, does to date appear to inevitably reduce the class G "playground" available for private flying.

[Sir George Cayley]

My understanding is that the master plan for Carlsle revolves around a small package air/road interchange based on the airport.

The company that gave Eddie a few quid is into quite a few things and appear to well trousered in the investment dept.

Think 146's (Green and Red with names) hubbing in and out of CLDA.

The AIP shows the PCN value for the runway as just about the lowest I've seen. The new strip sorts out some other issues and creates a taxiway out of the the old runway.

I think the backers are to be congratulated on their foresight. I'm sure GA will not be disadvanted thinking of the operating model of this type of op. eg when most good spamcan ppruners are in the land of nod!

I commend this to the house.

Sir George Cayley

[niknak]

On the other hand, take a hard nosed business look at the proposals within the document.

1. £25m will not pay for the redevelopment of the airport as described, a new runway, lighting, taxiways, ATC refurbishment and upgrade of facilities therein and a ILS. Think of £40m to £50m and then you are being more realistic.

2. The majority of air freight being flown to and from the North West is in fact flown from Newcastle, Glasgow and Prestwick, there is no commercially viable demand to fly such from Carlisle and there never will be.

3. The catchement area surrounding the airport is insufficiant to support passenger air services to any destination, once again Newcastle and Glasgow already provide such needs and will always be able to undercut anyone operating from Carlisle.

So take another good look at the brochure and tie it up with what Stobart's media people said when they first bought the place - very much the same.

Note the fact that Stobart wants to move their head office operation and a significant part of their main depot to the airport site.
They want the local council to improve the road link to the airport and once they do, Stobart have a self made head office and a major distribution centre for a knock down price.

In the brochure, Stobart openly admit that they will never make a profit from the airport operations and I would wager that they have no intention of developing the airport but intend to turn it into a major industrial park and retail centre.
As they own the site already and such a proposal would do far more for the local economy than a new airport ever would, I don't think they'll have any problem getting permission to go ahead with it.

[Bravo73]

Oh great. The conspiracy theorists are out (again)... :rolleyes:

[FlyerFoto]

I see there are a few Eastern Airways pics in the brochure and a mention of 'interested airlines' but I note that there is no mention of anything on the EA website.
Still, it would be good to see a run-down airport given a new lease of life.....

[clearfinalsno1]

Useful to the debate on airport viability is the size of local population. From Government 2001 census we have the following approximate figures:

Urban:
=====
Carlisle 100,000
Newcastle, Gateshead, North and South Tyneside conurbation 800,000
Sunderland 280,000
Durham 87,000


Counties:
=======
Cumbria 487,000
Northumberland 307,000
County Durham 493,000
Dumfries and Galloway 148,000
Tyne and Wear 1,075,000

I'm not sure why the Tyne and Wear figure is so different from the corresponding conurbation figure.

Although Cumbria is a large county, probably three fifths of its area is uninhabited hills and mountains. Those population centres in south Cumbria (principally Kendal?) would probably go south to Manchester.

On the face of it these numbers are not good for Carlisle's viability, BUT the low cost revolution doesn't necessarily take convenience into account - consider all the out of town airports that Ryanair use - Torp is 50 miles from Oslo, Hann is further from Frankfurt even Stansted is hardly in the centre of London. So, conceivably, the populations of Tyneside and the neighbouring counties to Cumbria could consider using the airport if for instance it was the only one in the region that say Easyjet operated a flight to Barcelona or Majorca or the like - keyed in with an Easyjet/Ryanair coach service like they already do in Rome, Oslo etc, back to the city centres - it might just work.

Carlisle has tried and failed before with scheduled routes but the you don't need to be told that the airline world has changed beyond all recognition in the last 5-8 years.

However, to some

[niknak]

Bravo - not a conspiracy theory, merely a realistic interpretation of the brochure by a business head.
Eventually Stobart will turn Carlisle Airport into a business park and whilst we live in hope that they'll keep an aviation facility in situ, there's no guarantee.

Stobart is no longer the cuddly family bussiness it used to be, it's now owned by City venture capitalists whose only interest is making it significantly more profitable than it was before they sell it on.

[xrayalpha]

Hi Niknak,

You wrote:

****2. The majority of air freight being flown to and from the North West is in fact flown from Newcastle, Glasgow and Prestwick, ****

True. But then Carlisle has never really been marketed, used, owned by freight specialists.

Interesting facts:

the only motorway link between Scotland and England is nearing completion at Carlisle.

Edinburgh, on the east coast of Scotland, is actually WEST of Carlisle!

So Carlisle is maybe a more than useful Scottish (yes, I know it is in England!) hub than Prestwick, relatively isolated to the west of Scotland. Glasgow and Edinburgh are going to be very busy while redevelpoment work goes on (night closures while the new runway is built?)

****** 3. The catchement area surrounding the airport is insufficiant to support passenger air services to any destination, once again Newcastle and Glasgow already provide such needs ******

If you live anywhere east and south of Glasgow city and have to cross the Kingston Bridge on the M*, then Carlisle isn't that far ;-) If you are in Hamilton, Motherwell, Airdrie etc then an hour down the three-lane motorway to Carlisle is better for the blood pressure than the hour to an hour and a half in stop start through the city!

Very best to all - I hope the new plans will mean an end to helicopters hover taxiiing past parked aircraft to refuel!

[Bravo73]

niknak,

You seem to be remarkably poorly informed, I'm afraid.

re the airport - there are other matters afoot which almost guarantee the future of Carlisle Airport as an airport, not an industrial estate. I'm afraid that I'm not willing to disclose on a public forum what these developments are (yet.) Rest assured - the brochure is genuine.

Eddie Stobart is now part of WA Developments, another proud Cumbrian company. There might be some VC cash involved (isn't there everywhere?) but the company is currently going through a phase of mergers and expansion. Is this in the drive for higher profits? Of course it is. What company doesn't strive for higher profits?

Andrew Tinkler is definitely not a 'City venture capitalist'. He's a Cumbrian lad, through and through.

[Droopystop]

I couldn't get the brochure link to work, so I don't know how big this airport is going to be. But if you were in the logistics business and wanted to run international freight wouldn't some where like Carlisle be just the place?

Relatively low population density - few noise complaints
Quiet airspace
Uncongested airport - little demand for pax services
Close to the major North South arterial route, both road and rail

Looks like a great place to run freight from/to.

[jabberwok]

Eddie Stobart is now part of WA Developments, another proud Cumbrian company.

Interesting that a Falcon 900B has just been registered to a company of the same name on the Manx Register.

http://homepages.mcb.net/bones/WebAircraft/M-SAIR.jpg

[julian_storey]

What on earth is wrong with some people? Why does the glass always have to be half empty?

Airfield after airfield is gradually disappearing. By way of example have we all seen the Dunsfold website? It's here . . . (http://www.dunsfoldpark.com)

If someone is prepared to make a substantial inventment in this country's GA infrastructure they should be applauded.

[Bravo73]

Interesting that a Falcon 900B has just been registered to a company of the same name on the Manx Register.


Exactly. Thank you, jabberwok. Stobart Air also happen to be currently advertising for a driver for it. (See the Bizjet forum for details.) And it doesn't doesn't take a genius to work out what the 'SAIR' part of the reg stands for...

And I wonder where it's going to be based? On an industrial estate or... at an airport maybe, niknak?

[helicopter-redeye]

I'm thinking about dodgy foundations and the like

Well the fuel man told me that it was more to do with a part of the Wall of the last and bountiful Emperor Hadrian, whose civil engineer masterpiece runs under the corner. And I’m sure he knows more than anybody … :ok:

[red17]

Seems manx2.com are considering the airport as a destination next summer looks like a route for the metro. Should be interesting

[SWBKCB]

Recent comments from the airport manager says they are not aiming for the B.737/LCC/"Bucket and Spade" market - runway not long enough (1,771 metres) and market too small. The plans are for five return passenger flights a day plus six air-freight flights. Passenger flights operated by 30-seater Jetstream 41 or similar aircraft upto 80 seaters (Dash 8-400's?). So Eastern/flyBe rather than Easy/Ryanair. Hopefully Luton/Stansted first then Dublin / Amsterdam / Belfast / Paris.

Airport would be used as HQ for haulage business Eddie Stobart and for WA Developments, currently at Kingstown. Both will be moved to Preston if planning permission not given in time.

Plans prepared by same consultants as Doncaster Sheffield Airport.

New runway needed because the existing runway is in a poor state and subject to weight restrictions. The replacement will be built alongside to allow the old runway to continue in use during construction.

Airport is within the buffer zone for Hadrian’s Wall, a World Heritage Site

[NorthSouth]

Droopystop:Quiet airspaceHave you ever been there? It's the busiest military low flying airspace in the country.
NS

[niknak]

The economics of any proposed airport development simply don't add up, whereas the econonomics of an industrial estate do.

The potential costs of the new runway alone are at least £30m, another £10m for new taxiways, ILS and hangerage, then you've got the cost of the distribution centre and a final bill in the region of £50m with the prospect of not paying that off this side of the year 2050.

Even given the business brain behind Stobart, they wouldn't be able to compete in the air freight industry (of which they have little experience).
Passenger services have come and gone at Carlisle, it would be nice to think that they could make something of it, but it's unlikely.
The present airport cannot support low cost operators without the above investment and even then the catchment area is not sufficiant to make such operaions, or scheduled flights, feasible.

£50m for an airport with high overheads and little income, which will take many years, if ever, to make a profit.

or

Around half that for a retail/industrial estate which has few overheads and earns hard cash immediately.????????

I can see the present runway remaining in situ, being reduced in width and possibly length to make repairs more economic, some other cosmetic tarting up and the rest of the site being developed for industrial use only.

[Say again s l o w l y]

That may be true if that was the only story and Stobart's only business was as an airport operator.

The aren't and have other business' and plans that will help come to fruition because of the airport.

The airport doesn't neccessarily have to make money, at least not initially anyway

[SWBKCB]

I agree - I think the main motive here is to get a nice new HQ/distribution centre quickly, with the airport bit being used to twist the councils arm re planning permission/infrastucture costs.

Can't see the aviation element being a money spinner, but airports are sexier than distribution centres...

Think they're playing the same game as Peel at DTVA.

[Bravo73]

niknak,

Have you even been to Carlisle Airport?

If you've been recently, you would've seen the various archaeological digs and other preparatory work that has been done in preparation for the new runway.

If this is all a very elaborate smokescreen (as you allude), Stobarts seem to be going to an awful lot of effort in order to build just another industrial estate.

And FYI, the loco operators (Ryanair, Easyjet et al) are not the target market. :p

[gboy306]

I had read about all this a few months ago with interest :)

And apparantly Ryanair (surprise surprise) are one of the interested airlines!

[gboy306]

Got it:

http://www.uk-airport-news.info/carlisle-airport-news-150706.htm

[clearfinalsno1]

Comments please:

Seeing that they are going to the expense of building a new runway, why don't they consider adding 400m or so at the western end (and get the council to fund the movement of the road to allow this). This would give sufficient distance for all B737 and thus LoCo operations.

Landing Distances required:

can give you figures for the required landing distances of a B737-300:
60t (above our max. of 57.6)
dry runway: 1710m (flaps 40), 1790m (flaps 30)
wet runway: 1970m, 2050m
dry autoland: 2020m, 2100m
wet autoland: 2280m, 2360m
34t
dry runway: 990m (flaps 40), 1030 (flaps 30)
wet runway: 1140m, 1180m
dry autoland: 1300m, 1340m
wet autoland: 1450m, 1490m
Conditions: Sea Level, ISA, Zero Wind, Anti-skid operative, Automatic Speed Brakes
Definition of required landing distance:
The Required Landing Distance is the demonstrated landing distance divided by 0.6; demonstrated landing distance is based on a speed of 1.3xVs in landing config at the 50ft point; dry smooth level, hard surfaced runway; brakes fully applied, no thrust reverse.
Required landing distance wet is 1.15 times the dry one.
For emergencies actual landing distances are used (but you have to keep in mind that you won't reach the Boenig test pilots' values), for example:
One Engine Inoperative, Flaps 15 Landing, Standard Conditions, 46t: 820m
(1m = 3.281ft; 1t = 2204.6lb)


Carlisle is currently just over 1800m long. As an example, Rome Ciampino is around 2200m long and very busy with both Ryanair and Easyjet 737 operations.

[bobjen]

Paid visit to Carlisle yesterday, looks like they are confident of planning permission. Surveyors and engineers on site, diggers and large dumpers parked up. Noted Haughey forum says the new hanger might be demolished as it is too high and close to new runway.:):):rolleyes::ok:

[bobjen]

The council plans say that the fuel farm, 3 hangers at ATC will also have to be altered or demolished, has anybody any idea what will happen to the Vulcan ??? :{:*:bored::confused:

[helicopter-redeye]

The Vulcan, he has got wheels....:oh:

[Humberair]

Let hope not he has done enough damage at Oban:eek:

[neutron]

Humberair said:
Let hope not he has done enough damage at Oban

To whom does this refer - has a posting been deleted?

[The Westmorland Flye]

To the suggestion, a page or two back, that Peter Jackson, recently ex Oban by all accounts, might like to apply for the airfield manager job at Carlisle.

Fortunately that job isn't even remotely in prospect of becoming vacant!

[NutLoose]

As to why realign the main runway, well would that not put any traffic to the North of Carlisle on approach as opposed to over it?.......

As for Carlisle council making a decision, I wouldn't hold your breath......... It took them years to decide on building a swimming pool and then they made it a couple of foot to short, so it could never have been used for major competitions sighting cost as the reasoning......... MUPPETS.:ugh:

Good on you Eddie, it sorely needs developing even if my Mum will be on the flight path she is looking forward to seeing planes :cool: ahhhhh she will learn :}:ugh:

[Barshifter]

Yet another twist in the planning saga at Carlisle

BBC NEWS | England | Cumbria | New plans for airport submitted (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/7670198.stm)

[rauxaman]

When driving up and down the A1 our favourite game is spotting Eddie Stobarts... "my Eddie Stobart"... we can now extend this to our flying :)

PS... visited Calisle in the past quite a few times and thought that it deserved development, let's hope Eddie does better than when he sponsored the local footie team.

PPS.. that director guy Scooter pointed us to looked bit mean, it'd be interesting to face up to him as a scrum half :}