Guimbal Cabri G2

[aa777888]

Well, you could have tried serving your country and then had lots of expensive helicopters to choose from to fly - you pays your money and makes your choice.Flying military helicopters wasn't an option for me when I would have been eligible, my vision did not pass the requirements of the time. And I've served my country for 35 years and counting.

[Paul Cantrell]

Most of the places I flew R22s seemed to just get rid of them at 2200 hours. I'm sure they didn't just throw them away (though who knows there certainly are enough of the little buggers around) but they did just replace them with another used (or freshly overhauled) one. Either way I never saw the same 22 twice at one school.

This has changed over the years as the overhaul policies have changed... When your only choice in the US was to ship the R22 back to California and wait six months, there was a cottage industry of people who would buy timed out hulls, overhaul them, and then sell them when the overhaul was complete. If I remember, a timed out hull was worth about $25K back then.

Now that just about anyone can buy the overhaul kit and have it ready on the shelf when the machine times out, I think it's a lot more common to keep the machine and just overhaul it as fast as you can. I suppose this depends a bit on your maintenance situation... One of the schools in our area has a single person maintenance facility... With private owners who need to be kept flying... Obviously they can't dedicate 100% of his time to an overhaul, so there is the question if you can afford to have the machine sitting there until he has the time to finish the overhaul.

At the school I teach at, with over 40 aircraft ( mostly fixed wing ) they have a big enough maintenance staff they can throw 3 mechanics at the task if they want.

The other obvious thing to consider is who owns the aircraft and who is paying for the overhaul. I imagine the equation is substantially different for a leaseback than for a school owned aircraft... ( assuming the school owns the maintenance department )

[Paul Cantrell]

And that is the crux of every discussion on these topics.
Must be cheap, cheap, cheeeeeap (anyone else hear birdies?), because cheap = better. :}

The only real downside to the Cabri is that it's useless at high density altitude.
Chasing away a few punters who can't see beyond the nickels and dimes, seems like another pro to me :E

I realise some of what you said is sarcasm, but really, the downside in the US is indeed price. We gave up on R22s after our second rollover, and have been exclusively R44 since then. However we aren't in the competitive and very price sensitive professional track training business ( although certainly some of our students are professional track). We mostly cater to wealthier people who will buy a 44, 66, 206 or similar after they complete their training. So, they aren't as price sensitive as the kid who is borrowing money for his training.

If we tried to be competitive against pro track schools operating R22s we would quickly be out of business. Like it or not, the first, second, and third most important questions you get asked are "how much?". If you can't be within $25 to maybe $50/hr of the competition, you won't get that student.

I realize the economics in Europe are different, and it might not be so black and white, but trying to do a pro track school here with anything except R22s is extremely difficult. More specialized training, maybe, but standard private/commercial/instrument/instructor training really requires the R22 for you to not be at a huge disadvantage.

If it was just a "few punters" it would be different, but at least here it's just the opposite... A few people have the means to train in a "better" helicopter, but the majority of the potential student base is price sensitive enough that only the R22 works economically.

[Robbiee]

In the end its the same line of ink on the same piece of pastic. You wanna pay more for it, that's between you and your wallet.

,...and maybe your psychiatrist :E

[Paul Cantrell]

In the end its the same line of ink on the same piece of pastic. You wanna pay more for it, that's between you and your wallet.

,...and maybe your psychiatrist :E

I mostly agree. I think our guys having all R44 time may have a slight advantage in the interview process for their first turbine job... Having 1,000 hours in the four seat aircraft arguably is an easier transition into a 5 or 7 seat aircraft than 1,000 hours in an R22... Maybe at least puts them a little higher up in the stack of resumes... But they probably paid a $20,000 premium during initial training, so, yeah. $$$

[Bell_ringer]

In the end its the same line of ink on the same piece of pastic. You wanna pay more for it, that's between you and your wallet.


I wouldn't choose my Doctor, Lawyer or accountant on cost.
I certainly wouldn't choose my training on that basis either.
It is unsustainable and corners get cut (or at best sharpened), it's great until it ends in tears.

Price is how people are wired in this consumer-driven world and it is putting many a business in the toilet.

[Vertical Freedom]

Why choose either these Ladies; Robust, Rugged, Reliable, Dependable, Trimmed correctly She's All Yours (sounds like an Enstrom..almost) Beautiful to look at & fun to fly. Heck in this market, why would You choose anything less :ok: & the runner up prize goes to Enstrom & the 47 (original Queen of the Sky) :cool:

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x720/img_2555_4cabe195b3228da9b6d81db4d2152b9abe5198cb.jpg
Bell_Ringer stated it right! There is no compromise on Value & Quality, please don't compromise Your Safety to save a few pennies, especially with Family :ooh:
Do the Right thing Go G2 :D (& Go Vegan, both will save Your Life) :)

[Radgirl]

I wouldn't choose my Doctor, Lawyer or accountant on cost.

But most patients, litigants, tax payers do. Either because they are not doctors, lawyers or accountants and dont know any other way to choose, or because simply most people are cash poor.

And this is why IMHO, this repetitive thread is so silly. Most people struggle to pay for their flying and cant afford anything better. The ab initio student will end up with the cheapest option, or with the first school they are recommended because they have no way of assessing quality and safety, and the more experienced will fly the best ship they can afford. Hopefully by then they will have some idea about risk and the size of the envelope. It is a free world, just.

[Robbiee]

I wouldn't choose my Doctor, Lawyer or accountant on cost.
I certainly wouldn't choose my training on that basis either.
It is unsustainable and corners get cut (or at best sharpened), it's great until it ends in tears.

Price is how people are wired in this consumer-driven world and it is putting many a business in the toilet.

I did not chose my school based on cost, nor did I chose it based on which model of helicopter they used. There were two schools in my area, the chief pilot at the first school rubbed me the wrong way, so I went to the second school. The fact that they flew Robby was incidental.

After I became a pilot, I moved back to California to work with my father. When I looked for a place to rent a helicopter the first place I found had Schweizers, so I took one up. I was not thrilled by its performance and/or feel, so I went searching for another school to rent from.

Finally I did find another place to rent from, it was an hour and a half drive (due to the insane traffic out here) but they had Robby, and as a renter I found Robby much more fun to fly!

Fortunately for me the helicopter I liked better was also cheaper. I've often asked myself if Robby was more expensive would I have gone with Schweizer as a renter? I guess the answer depends on how much desposable income I had,...because I really didn't like flying Schweizer!

I've never flown a G2 as no school around me has one to rent. Now if a school opened up and had a G2 and a Robby for the same price, sure I'd check out the G2, but with 511 solo hours in Robby I've developed a fondness for the little guy so I'd probably still stick with him,...or perhaps alternate between the two every other month,...if, that is, I liked flying the G2. Thing is, I have actually flown a few different fully-articulated machines and personality prefer the feel of a semi-ridged rotor, so, that's also one more point on Robby's side for me.

Anyway, when I learned how to fly, I never said to myself, "I wish I was in a better helicopter". I was having too much fun flying Robby! The only schools around may have been using the cheapest option for them, but it in no way cheapened my training!

I have a lot of regrets in my life, learning how to fly in an R22, then renting one for sixteen and and a half years is not one of them!

[Robbiee]

Why choose either these Ladies; Robust, Rugged, Reliable, Dependable, Trimmed correctly She's All Yours (sounds like an Enstrom..almost) Beautiful to look at & fun to fly. Heck in this market, why would You choose anything less :ok: & the runner up prize goes to Enstrom & the 47 (original Queen of the Sky) :cool:

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x720/img_2555_4cabe195b3228da9b6d81db4d2152b9abe5198cb.jpg
Bell_Ringer stated it right! There is no compromise on Value & Quality, please don't compromise Your Safety to save a few pennies, especially with Family :ooh:
Do the Right thing Go G2 :D (& Go Vegan, both will save Your Life) :)

You definitely win the prize for best fear propaganda poster!:D

This one put a huge smile on my face,...thanks!
:E

[HeliHenri]

.
For whom who like to Watch TV instead of outside :

Garmin G500 TXi (10' Touchscreen)


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/637x1059/g2_garmin_g500_ed519cbc041bab61de6d258e1051d36979177a45.png

[CGameProgrammerr]

That's the 7" display; I have the exact same one in my R44.

[HeliHenri]

That's the 7" display; I have the exact same one in my R44.

Hello CGP,

Can we make a deal at 8.5' ?! ;)

You're absolutely right, that's the 7' !
.

[kiwi_andy]

Well you lovers of this aircraft mark my words, in a few years time the nasty little problems will emerge due to unforeseen maintenanace issues of a new airframe on the market, and with students clanking it down on the ground, and then you will see how expensive it will be to rectify.
I will shut up for now, but I will revive this thread and laugh whole heartedly when the time comes.
Just to get a few in for now .......:} :} :}

Fluffy
Just read thru this thread from the start, there has been some interesting debates over the time this machine has been available. I wonder if Fluffy has started laughing yet???

[CentralS]

That's the 7" display; I have the exact same one in my R44.
Keep in mind that the EPM just below is a 6,5" screen.
I think that the Garmin is a 10,6" version... even though a 7" version is available.

[KNIEVEL77]

I was just wondering how the lockdown and virus will affect Flight Training Schools especially ones with Cabris?
Due to the extra cost of flying the Cabri, will students just disappear or will they now decide to train on the cheaper R22?
Will FTOs reduce the Cabri Training rate to entice students in, will they increase the training rate to cover the lost revenue during the pandemic or will they simply get rid of the Cabri and concentrate on the R22.
I’m not sure which way the training industry will go.

[Robbiee]

I was just wondering how the lockdown and virus will affect Flight Training Schools especially ones with Cabris?
Due to the extra cost of flying the Cabri, will students just disappear or will they now decide to train on the cheaper R22?
Will FTOs reduce the Cabri Training rate to entice students in, will they increase the training rate to cover the lost revenue during the pandemic or will they simply get rid of the Cabri and concentrate on the R22.
I’m not sure which way the training industry will go.

I suppose the same could be asked of the schools who only use the R44, as well as the ones with all the "extra" stuff, like long line training, NVG training, and turbine transitions added in to make their entry level CFIs "extra" hireable?

Then again, helicopters have always been for for those with rich parents, GI money, and/or who qualify for heafty student loans,...so nothing may change at all?

[Spunk]

Then again, helicopters have always been for for those with rich parents, GI money, and/or who qualify for heafty student loans,...so nothing may change at all?

... and for those who were following their childhood dream, never gave up no matter what hurdle they had to take, worked hard, saved every cent they earnt in whatever job they could get their hands on and finally succeeded. ;)

[Robbiee]

... and for those who were following their childhood dream, never gave up no matter what hurdle they had to take, worked hard, saved every cent they earnt in whatever job they could get their hands on and finally succeeded. ;)

If the industry had to rely on people who could both pay their way through life and save enough for training,...?

,...there'd be like ten pilots in the whole world! Seriously, when I was living in my car working two jobs I still couldn't afford flight school!

[[email protected]]

Or, serve your country, join the military and get paid to learn to fly:)

[KNIEVEL77]

https://youtu.be/xBaId3oe_bk

If already posted I will delete.

[nomorehelosforme]

If the industry had to rely on people who could both pay their way through life and save enough for training,...?

,...there'd be like ten pilots in the whole world! Seriously, when I was living in my car working two jobs I still couldn't afford flight school!

How very sad and heroic of you... life in the car must have been tough, having to fight for your parking space, hoping the food you had would be enough for the day, praying you didn’t get shot at in the dark and hoping your government pay check came at the end of the month.

Would have been similar if you had if you had joined the military but with better benefits.... rather than taking benefits!

[homonculus]

Crab shows how to make a point with panache and style

Nomorehelosforme shows how to make the same point but to be offensive

[WillyPete]

Or, serve your country, join the military and get paid to learn to fly:)
Not always an option.

[WillyPete]

The Cabri has a bit of a design problem at the firewall, abrading electric cables.
About two years ago, I was taking a flight with VVB (Now ICE Heli) and when lifting collective and getting light on the skids prior to hover, the display rebooted and the power dropped as though we'd hit the plasma ignition switch.
A bit of a "Woah, what was that?" moment, and moving over to the grass at Elstree we determined that it wasn't just at a certain collective angle, but when the ship vibrated a bit with the governor revving up for power demand.

We couldn't see what the issue was so shut down and scrubbed the flight.
Maintenance took a long time to find it but eventually found there was wear to cables coming from the cabin.

Then I spotted this in the news the other week:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-51959648

Turns out that a different aircraft burnt down due to the same fault.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e7241a486650c7270546a05/Guimbal_Cabri_G2_G-CILR_04-20.pdf

Glad we caught ours before it got a bit serious up in the air.

If you're in one, make sure it's got the upgraded clips.

[Robbiee]

How very sad and heroic of you... life in the car must have been tough, having to fight for your parking space, hoping the food you had would be enough for the day, praying you didn’t get shot at in the dark and hoping your government pay check came at the end of the month.

Would have been similar if you had if you had joined the military but with better benefits.... rather than taking benefits!

I don't know what about me living in my car stuck up your ass, but I wasn't receiving any government money.

Besides, the military wouldn't take me due to my asthma,...even if I had wanted to go that route,...which I did not!

[Flying Bull]

The Cabri has a bit of a design problem at the firewall, abrading electric cables.
About two years ago, I was taking a flight with VVB (Now ICE Heli) and when lifting collective and getting light on the skids prior to hover, the display rebooted and the power dropped as though we'd hit the plasma ignition switch.
A bit of a "Woah, what was that?" moment, and moving over to the grass at Elstree we determined that it wasn't just at a certain collective angle, but when the ship vibrated a bit with the governor revving up for power demand.

We couldn't see what the issue was so shut down and scrubbed the flight.
Maintenance took a long time to find it but eventually found there was wear to cables coming from the cabin.

Then I spotted this in the news the other week:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-51959648

Turns out that a different aircraft burnt down due to the same fault.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e7241a486650c7270546a05/Guimbal_Cabri_G2_G-CILR_04-20.pdf

Glad we caught ours before it got a bit serious up in the air.

If you're in one, make sure it's got the upgraded clips.


Not really a design problem.

More a maintainence problem, assembling the parts incorrectly.

OK, in the aviation world we should try do design things failsafe, so incorrect assembly isn't possible - so just a little bit of design fault ;-)

[WillyPete]

Did you have a chat with Guimbal after this event? Was it confirmed to have been caused by the same issue as in the report you've referenced?

No, wasn't my helicopter.
I don't know if their maintenance did later.

I was shown the offending location a few weeks later and it's the same spot in the report that shows the new cable clip.

[WillyPete]

Not really a design problem.

More a maintainence problem, assembling the parts incorrectly.

OK, in the aviation world we should try do design things failsafe, so incorrect assembly isn't possible - so just a little bit of design fault ;-)

Yup, as per the report:
"The helicopter manufacturer has completed a redesign of the clipping system to ensure the cable clipping cannot be installed incorrectly. The new design of clip is being fitted to new production helicopters and will be available via service bulletin from the manufacturer."

[KNIEVEL77]

When does anyone think Flight training will resume?
it looks like it could be a long while yet!

[aa777888]

It never stopped in the US, aviation was given "essential" status. Some training op's closed, of course, not sure how many.

[KNIEVEL77]

Wow, how can you keep the 2m rule in any aircraft never mind a Cabri?

[aa777888]

@KNIEVEL77 there is a discussion on that very topic in this Rotorheads thread: https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/630279-helicopters-coronavirus.html

[KNIEVEL77]

@KNIEVEL77 there is a discussion on that very topic in this Rotorheads thread: https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/630279-helicopters-coronavirus.html

That thread turned a bit political so I gave it a miss but they mentioned one Cabri school who have been flying for weeks although it may well have been all solo flights.

[chopper2004]

Think there’s been another G2 accident apart from the Malaysian one, this time in Switzerland and a damaged Bell 505-

https://www.lenouvelliste.ch/articles/valais/canton/accident-d-helico-deux-blesses-legers-a-sion-1004041


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x449/b823c46a_8b5d_45f5_b838_db68f4986a84_a7242345f2afba9e29241c5 3a989010f8c72c7ac.jpeg

[ApolloHeli]

Looks like the Cabri tried a sneak attack on the 505 from behind but it was not very effective.

[rotorfun]

To fend off those sneak attacks the 505 didn't go with an enclosed tail rotor.

[Ascend Charlie]

The pilots were distantly related - in the 505 was Cutty Zarsov, and in the Cabri was Twista di Zarsov.

[Agile]

always looks bad when two aircrafts from the same company bang into each other
will be hard to get a good deal on insurance for a while with that double claim

[Arnie Madsen]

If the industry had to rely on people who could both pay their way through life and save enough for training,...?

,...there'd be like ten pilots in the whole world! Seriously, when I was living in my car working two jobs I still couldn't afford flight school!
I did my first hours that way (Bell 47) ..... had a good job net 660 per week and every weekend 500 went to the flight school for an hour Saturday and an hour Sunday and I lived on the rest ... had cheap house rent but hardest part for me was parking my car and using the transit bus

All the other students in my class had parents who put up money or some had good credit and got loans ... one student his dad mortgaged his farm to raise cash.

[Hot and Hi]

Somewhere else here within the RH Forum, the consequences are discussed of a total electrical failure in case of a Robinson piston product (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/624942-hypothetical-robinson-total-electrical-failure.html?highlight=alternator+failure). As Robbie pilots know, if after an alternator failure one continues to fly until the battery is flat, the donkey would continue to run, but one would lose all electrically driven instruments incl the RRPM tach.

However, if for example in case of an electrical fire one elected to switch off both ALT and Master, the tach's would still be energised via a special circuit straight from the battery.

How does this work in a Cabri?

[Mutley1013]

Kinda the same, you flick the rpm warning backup switch on and that is direct from the battery. Not very granular, just tells you green or too high or too low rpm. It is good enough with the correlator to get you down safely while the fire rages.

[ApolloHeli]

Somewhere else here within the RH Forum, the consequences are discussed of a total electrical failure in case of a Robinson piston product (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/624942-hypothetical-robinson-total-electrical-failure.html?highlight=alternator+failure). As Robbie pilots know, if after an alternator failure one continues to fly until the battery is flat, the donkey would continue to run, but one would lose all electrically driven instruments incl the RRPM tach.

However, if for example in case of an electrical fire one elected to switch off both ALT and Master, the tach's would still be energised via a special circuit straight from the battery.

How does this work in a Cabri?

Obviously the glass display (EPM) will no longer work if both the master & alternator are switched off / failed. The backup Nr indication system (BARC = "Boîtier Alarme Rotor et Carburant" or "Rotor and Fuel Alarm System") is run off a direct-to-battery connection.

The BARC system always provides backup power to a set of three lights (indicating Low Nr / Nominal Nr / High Nr range) and a separate "Low Fuel light" which is triggered by an independent float measurement system once there's about 14-16 litres in the tank left. The BARC also powers the "horn" which gives audio warnings at excessively high or low Nr.

I've attached the relevant pages from the RFM in case I've butchered the verbal explanation.

[Mutley1013]

A separate dedicated backup battery? Well I never knew that! Where is that shown on the wiring diagram and do you know where the backup battery is within the airframe? I can only think it would be in the console, is that right?

[ApolloHeli]

A separate dedicated backup battery? Well I never knew that! Where is that shown on the wiring diagram and do you know where the backup battery is within the airframe? I can only think it would be in the console, is that right?

Ah damn it - now I look like a tool! I misread the "can be switched to a direct battery backup supply" as "can be switched to a backup battery supply". I believe you're correct in saying there is no second battery. I've corrected it now.

[Mutley1013]

LMAO, it isn’t exactly clear in the wording and that had me doubting everything I knew about the BARC to the point of thinking, where the hell is this battery then as I’ve not spotted it in any walkarounds/preflights! Openness to learn a new thing overriding what I knew to be false 😄.

I suspect people do not get much practise with no EPM display and no governor, one or the other, but probably not simultaneously.

[Hot and Hi]

So much of a muchness then.

Can you confirm that - in case of a total electric failure and flat battery - the donk continues running? Just on the 1 set of magnetos, or will the electronic ignition (“plasma system ignition”) equally continue to work without supply of electric power?

[Mutley1013]

The plasma is direct to the battery too, so the donk will continue to run on both ignition systems while the battery has the capacity to fulfil. Once flat, it will as you say rely on the magneto only. I would hope though in most scenarios the heli would be safely on the ground in the event of an electrical outage before the battery is flat.

[WillyPete]

I mentioned earlier in the thread experiencing a "short" in the primary electrical feed to the cabin from the generator.
Granted, it was intermittent and we were still preparing to taxi prior to flight so not so serious.

All electronic systems lost. Engine grumbled and ran rough for an instant as the fadec was lost but the revs stabilised while in the hover.
Still enough power to put it back down while we tried to figure out what had happened.
It kicked in when collective was being raised and a minor vibration kicked in.
Felt similar to the drop when plasma is turned off during pre-flight.

[CGameProgrammerr]

Yeah the reason they use one magneto and one EIS, and not two EIS, is so the engine can continue to run without electrical power due to the magneto. Otherwise power loss would mean engine loss.

[ApolloHeli]

For those wondering, Guimbal states that the plasma will take >10 hours to drain the battery if the master were to be switched off.

[Hot and Hi]

For those wondering, Guimbal states that the plasma will take >10 hours to drain the battery if the master were to be switched off.
Yeah, I was wondering. Thanks for making this clear. Now in an ALT failure you do *not* switch off Master. The emergency procedure in a Robinson piston is to leave Master on, but switch off non-essential electrical consumers (lights, strobe, second radio, TPX, air con, RA).

The (non-documented) time the battery will last in this scenario is between 15 and 60 min before total electric failure, with an estimated median of 30 to 40 min. Not sure what drains the battery most, but essential consumers would include the gyro instruments, avionics fan, the remaining radio, any glass instruments and the panel-mounted EFB... Can't think of much else.

Would be the same in a Cabri, not? Only difference I can see is that from the point of total electrical failure in a Cabri you only run in one sets magnetos, so no more redundant ignition.

[Robbiee]

For those wondering, Guimbal states that the plasma will take >10 hours to drain the battery if the master were to be switched off.

What is the plasma?

[Mutley1013]

It is the name of the electronic ignition system.

[HeliHenri]

.
The Cabri G2 is now certified in Russia. :ok:

We'll see at last funny videos with the G2. :}
.

[WillyPete]

Hope they have their dash cam.

[Abarth59571]

Hi Guys,
Can anyone give me a contact of how to find out a definitive list of which FTOs operate the Cabri in the UK please?
I already have 35 hours and need to finish off the course after a long Covid break.
Many thanks.

[Bravo73]

Hi Guys,
Can anyone give me a contact of how to find out a definitive list of which FTOs operate the Cabri in the UK please?.

I think that Heligroup are the UK agents for Cabri: https://www.heligroup.com/cabri2/

Maybe if you emailed them they could provide you with a comprehensive list of all of the Cabri operators in the country?

[Mutley1013]

Cabri are to be seen in Fairoaks, Goodwood and Lee-on-Solent, but that might not be of any help if you are North East based!

[Abarth59571]

Many thanks.

[SpindleBob]

Have you tried G-Info online?

Helicentre Aviation in Leicester look like the largest user of Cabri aircraft in the UK

[John R81]

EGB at Redhill train with Cabri (amongst other things

[EddieHeli]

Northumbria Helicopters at Newcastle have a Cabri G2

[miller745]

Northumbria Helicopters at Newcastle have a Cabri G2

They did....it's at Bournemouth now. Was replaced for an R44. Going to miss flying it!

[Abarth59571]

Northumbria Helicopters at Newcastle have a Cabri G2

Not any more.

[alicopter]

A Cabri can also be seen ( but hardly heard!) in Beccles, further South East.... Train and hire at Virage Helicopter Academy, Ellough Airfield.
Our Fleet (http://www.virage-heli.co.uk/our-fleet.html)

[Abarth59571]

The Cabri must be a Southern thing............strange that no one can make it work ‘up North’.

[The Punter]

Do Arcus at Nottingham still have their Cabri?

[andre127]

Hello everybody, I think I've read everything that is actually on the internet but I still have some doubt about the performance of this aircraft.

Because I can maybe only manage to operate an helicopter of this size and due to the fact that the r22 scares me for some reasons, I would like to understand if this ship is ok for some vfr trips around italy. And because of this I'm mostly interested in cruise performance. Until now I cannot have a clear picture regarding this aspect of the aircraft. From what I can read on the website they say it cruise at 100kts, and that could be very good for me. But, are those 100kts achievable every time at for example 1500ft, isa+10, 2 light pax, some luggage and let's say 130liters in the tank? even the flight manual seems to have different reviews I think. Is it correct that the max cruise is at the yellow threshold and the economy is 10% less than the yellow threshold? What will the performance be in the load scenario above? Is it realistic to fly most of the time at for example 1-2% less than the yellow threshold without wear components? Is the aircraft seem to fly nicely at this setting or it screams and vibrate or something else?

Another point: with enough practice can I fly with 30kts of wind on the ground? is It safe to operate? start and stop the rotor an so on?

thanks if you are so kind to answer me, it's very appreciated.

best regards

Andrea

[Robbiee]

Hello everybody, I think I've read everything that is actually on the internet but I still have some doubt about the performance of this aircraft.

Because I can maybe only manage to operate an helicopter of this size and due to the fact that the r22 scares me for some reasons, I would like to understand if this ship is ok for some vfr trips around italy. And because of this I'm mostly interested in cruise performance. Until now I cannot have a clear picture regarding this aspect of the aircraft. From what I can read on the website they say it cruise at 100kts, and that could be very good for me. But, are those 100kts achievable every time at for example 1500ft, isa+10, 2 light pax, some luggage and let's say 130liters in the tank? even the flight manual seems to have different reviews I think. Is it correct that the max cruise is at the yellow threshold and the economy is 10% less than the yellow threshold? What will the performance be in the load scenario above? Is it realistic to fly most of the time at for example 1-2% less than the yellow threshold without wear components? Is the aircraft seem to fly nicely at this setting or it screams and vibrate or something else?

Another point: with enough practice can I fly with 30kts of wind on the ground? is It safe to operate? start and stop the rotor an so on?

thanks if you are so kind to answer me, it's very appreciated.

best regards

Andrea

Ha! From what I've read the Cabri was designed specifically for people who are afraid of the R22. :p

Its built for safety not performance, so I doubt you'd be able to get 100kts fully loaded,...but then I've never flown one. As for picking up in 30kts of wind (from what I've read about its tail rotor) your feet definitely need to be awake for that. I've hovered a 22 in that much wind and my feet were doing the Charleston! :}

[ApolloHeli]

Hello everybody, I think I've read everything that is actually on the internet but I still have some doubt about the performance of this aircraft.

Because I can maybe only manage to operate an helicopter of this size and due to the fact that the r22 scares me for some reasons, I would like to understand if this ship is ok for some vfr trips around italy. And because of this I'm mostly interested in cruise performance. Until now I cannot have a clear picture regarding this aspect of the aircraft. From what I can read on the website they say it cruise at 100kts, and that could be very good for me. But, are those 100kts achievable every time at for example 1500ft, isa+10, 2 light pax, some luggage and let's say 130liters in the tank? even the flight manual seems to have different reviews I think. Is it correct that the max cruise is at the yellow threshold and the economy is 10% less than the yellow threshold? What will the performance be in the load scenario above? Is it realistic to fly most of the time at for example 1-2% less than the yellow threshold without wear components? Is the aircraft seem to fly nicely at this setting or it screams and vibrate or something else?

Another point: with enough practice can I fly with 30kts of wind on the ground? is It safe to operate? start and stop the rotor an so on?

thanks if you are so kind to answer me, it's very appreciated.

best regards

Andrea

Cruise performance with 2 POB and 130 litres of fuel: I would say 90KIAS is possible, but 100KIAS is pushing it with two people and plenty of fuel. You are correct that the 'bottom of the yellow' is max continuous power (145shp). 100KIAS is certainly possible alone, but with two POB I wouldn't plan on it. Bear in mind the fuel burn is higher at MCP (a conservative figure would be closer to 45 L/hr rather than the normal 38-40 L/hr). Vibrations entirely depends on how nicely track & balanced the aircraft is - maybe go for a test flight in one and see for yourself the difference between 'economy cruise' and MCP.

Operating with 30kts of wind: I wouldn't recommend it, but it's possible. The 'maximum demonstrated' start-up / shut-down limits are 40kts wind according to the RFM. The issue however would be with a heavy helicopter, hovering out of wind will be very tricky. It's best to keep the nose into wind and avoid taxiing crosswind / downwind if possible. Also bear in mind it is a small helicopter, and at 30kts wind, even with small hills / terrain you will experience a lot of turbulence, so best to leave the flight for another day (in my opinion).

Regarding component wear if cruise power is consistently set close to MCP, I don't know, as that is rarely how the aircraft is flown by most operators. Maybe contact a large operator such as Swiss Helicopter in Switzerland and ask them for advice (or contact Guimbal directly, their customer service seems to be quite good according to surveys).

Finally, you might want to ask Mona Seeberger on her thoughts of the Cabri G2 in italy - she flew one around Italy a few years ago see video

[verticalspin]

I'd plan for 80 KIAS on cross country flights. Yes, 90 is doable with two people but your fuel burn will increase (80 KIAS is best range speed) and the vibrations/wind noise will increase as well. With the cyclic trimmed well the G2 is a very comfortable and easy aircraft to fly cross country. Not sure what the passenger/luggage weight is going to be for you but 2.5 hours of flight time shouldn't be much of a problem. A full tank would give you a little over 4 hours.
30 kts of winds I wouldn't recommend either. Especially at the private level and flying for pleasure, there is really no need to push the limits. It is definitely doable but requires very proactive pedal work, as well as some snug seatbelts as you will get kicked around quite a bit.
With component wear, I don't see an issue as long as you stay out of the yellow range in cruise. If you pull into the yellow in cruise the component that will start to wear is the TGB. But again, we don't usually push our G2s to 90 KIAS for extended periods of time because of ride comfort and fuel burn.

[Hot and Hi]

I am rated on both Cabri and R22. I can confirm what Verticalspin reports. 80, not 90 KT.

i wouldn’t worry about the wind too much. Unless it results in significant turbulence. And in that case, in the Cabri you are in a very good place!

[andre127]

Thanks to all!!

So I pretty much understood that yes, it will cruise at 100kts only empty and alone and yes I can cruise at 90 with two light pax (well two on) and 3/4-half tank but it seem to push a little.

at 11:20 min of the Mona's video in fact I can see 90kts (which is 93 of tas) at 1500ft and 92% on the MLI and later 73kts at 100% at 7500, so around 85 tas. I think that they were pushing to reach Venice before the night. Of course I can't see if they were flying leveled or in a light climb or descent, so mine are only assumptions.

So the typical mission which is for me 220 nm can be done but it will take around 2h30'-2h40' where an r44 will do that in 2 hours. But al least it can be done talking about fuel and reasonable real life wind.

can be said 80% 80kts, 90% 90kts, low and half loaded and 2 onboard?

An other question come in my mind: If you have to fly over water for 20/30 min during this mission, do you necessarily wear floats? I know that would be better for sure but I don't know how helicopter world thinks about that. I'm in the fixed wing world as you can imagine (+3000hours, but around 3hrs in heli) and with a light plane like a cirrus, for example, I would certainly have no problem to do that flight with an emergency dinghy (and sometimes without). But since there's no space in a cabri for a dinghy and since it's an helicopter I would like to have your opinion.

By the way all the 3hrs are In a r22, so it scares me a little, not when flying to be true (it's really nice to fly) but more when reading... And I think I will enjoy more, in a long term, the no mast bumping option of the cabri and the newer design.

thanks again

Andrea

[9Aplus]

Just to note,
that D-HAVE was the worst than average G2 example in the stable,
during the times when Mona filmed that trip.

[Robbiee]

Thanks to all!!

So I pretty much understood that yes, it will cruise at 100kts only empty and alone and yes I can cruise at 90 with two light pax (well two on) and 3/4-half tank but it seem to push a little.

at 11:20 min of the Mona's video in fact I can see 90kts (which is 93 of tas) at 1500ft and 92% on the MLI and later 73kts at 100% at 7500, so around 85 tas. I think that they were pushing to reach Venice before the night. Of course I can't see if they were flying leveled or in a light climb or descent, so mine are only assumptions.

So the typical mission which is for me 220 nm can be done but it will take around 2h30'-2h40' where an r44 will do that in 2 hours. But al least it can be done talking about fuel and reasonable real life wind.

can be said 80% 80kts, 90% 90kts, low and half loaded and 2 onboard?

An other question come in my mind: If you have to fly over water for 20/30 min during this mission, do you necessarily wear floats? I know that would be better for sure but I don't know how helicopter world thinks about that. I'm in the fixed wing world as you can imagine (+3000hours, but around 3hrs in heli) and with a light plane like a cirrus, for example, I would certainly have no problem to do that flight with an emergency dinghy (and sometimes without). But since there's no space in a cabri for a dinghy and since it's an helicopter I would like to have your opinion.

By the way all the 3hrs are In a r22, so it scares me a little, not when flying to be true (it's really nice to fly) but more when reading... And I think I will enjoy more, in a long term, the no mast bumping option of the cabri and the newer design.

thanks again

Andrea

Flying over water depends on how close you are to the shore. Here in The States if you are beyond power-off glide distance from the shore you need some kind of flotation and pyrotechnic signaling device (I used to wear a pouch style life vest around my waist with a flare gun in my pocket).

Though, to be frank, flying over water as regularly as I did, I really with my R22 had floats.

[Hot and Hi]

3 HRS TTRW, nil on type?

May I suggest you defer your tour d’Italie until you got a few hundred hours in helicopters.

[aa777888]

You'll be a lot more comfortable, have gobs more power margin, go faster, and easily fit 2 plus bags in an R44, and for not that much more an hour compared to a G2. Having flown all three machines including the R22, I'd venture the transition into the R44 from the G2 is likely to be relatively easy, although you will miss the very nice engine instrumentation of the G2. If an R44 Clipper is available to you then you will also have pop-out floats for the over-water leg. An R44 has plenty of tail rotor authority for 20-gust-30, but operations in that sort of wind must be very cautious in all phases of flight. You will most likely not be allowed to train in those winds initially.

I fly an R44 Clipper 2 and for any trip with significant over water operations I use inflatable life vests even with the pop-out floats.

[Bravo73]

3 HRS TTRW, nil on type?

May I suggest you defer your tour d’Italie until you got a few hundred hours in helicopters.

The best advice on the thread so far.

[andre127]

Don't warry! I will follow every step of the training with no rush at all. The goal will be those vfr trips but it's just an idea for the future. But this idea could maybe drive better the training from the start; if I will ever be convinced enough about the cabri there's no reason to train in a r22. Otherwise thinking in long terms about an r44 will make the r22 better for sure. In the end I managed to fly single pilot a light jet, aerobatics, gliders and parachutes so I know what you mean by having experience that now isn't there for sure.

What you think about this: "Lycoming, who had required the O-360 engines to be run rich (from concern about cooling the shrouded engine) have now reduced that requirement, for a saving close to 10 liters per hour of fuel burn, and of course a subsequent increase in available power."
There's no mention in the Poh about running the engine lean. Is this a normal procedure?

Of course the 44 will be more capable, but the 12 year overhaul and the operating cost seems to be much higher.

[NutLoose]

Re the 12 year overhaul, read

https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/SI1009BE%20TBO%20Schedule.pdf

[Hot and Hi]

Nutloose, for the rest of us, could you please interpret this document, in particular how it applies to the topic of this threat?

[n5296s]

tl;dr: not impressed with the G2.

I finally decided to get back into shape with helicopters, after a long pause due to my move from California to France. I had about 150 hours of R44 (and 2000 total including FW), and exactly 1 hour of G2. Here at Cannes we have a big heli school (Azur Helicoptere) which has R22, R44 and G2, and plenty of bigger stuff too.

The G2 is substantially cheaper than the R44, and also safer. So I figured, let's go with that.

I've now done two ~1 hour flights in the G2. I haven't enjoyed a single minute of it. Despite its small size, it's like flying a tractor. The controls are heavy, and it's underpowered: when below ETL speed you have to watch the power constantly since it takes 98% power just to stay in the air - and you must not go beyond 100% even for a second or two. And that's at sea level!

It's a bit like driving a 1960s truck, with no power-assisted anything - brakes, steering, no synchromesh...

The collective is particularly unpleasant. You have to maintain a constant heavy pull, or it slowly but surely drops to the floor. It's like flying an R44 with a sack of potatoes hanging from the collective. After an hour, my arm aches.

For sure I'm pretty rusty - I hadn't flown a heli in over a year. So it's hard to say how much is due to my rustiness and how much is due to the G2. But I've flown the R44 after similar pauses and got back into the groove within an hour.

I'll be going back to the R44, despite the extra cost. If my rustiness is terminal, so be it, but I'd prefer to give myself a decent chance.

[Mutley1013]

Compared to the flippy floppy Robinson, the G2 cyclic does initially feel as you describe. It shouldn't take too long to get passed that stage and I don't even think about it being heavy now. Yes, compared to an R44 with pilot only, the G2 will feel underpowered. Having said that, I've done vertical departures in the G2 (to tree top level) from confined areas with a passenger and 2hrs fuel without it running out of steam. No drama. How close were you to MTOW with G2? As for the collective, I've not found that with any of the G2's I've used. I'm no body builder, but happy to keep the collective in hand for a couple of hours if needed or just apply a little friction.

Each to their own at the end of the day.

[ApolloHeli]

There is a gas spring that pushes up on the collective to assist the pilot and relieve the weight of it. There's a balance to be found between having too much assistance (the collective may risk creeping up or be difficult to dump in the event of an engine failure) or having too little assistance (which leads to a heavy collective, and fatigue / discomfort as you describe). I would report that to the operator / maintenance so that an engineer can adjust the gas spring pressure / force and rectify the issue. I assure you it's not supposed to feel constantly heavy, I've flown Cabris with the same feeling and given the feedback to the engineer to rectify the issue - the gas spring force can be sorted and adjusted for each machine.

The 'heavy cyclic' could be due to incorrectly set trim (adjustable on the coolie hat on the cyclic) - for pilots not used to flying with these, it can be a bit of an afterthought to constantly trim out control forces, but once you get the hang of it it is a great assistance and increases the comfort of flying. In comparison to a hydraulically assisted flight controls like the R44, the Cabri's cyclic is definitely 'heavier' but that is simply part of the design, not a fault or issue.

As Mutley says, to each their own - the Cabri is plenty good enough for many operators, just as the R22 is good for others. Best of luck with getting back into flying!

[aa777888]

@n5296s those observations match previous ones that are occasionally posted in this thread (example (https://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/296022-guimbal-cabri-g2-61.html#post9966956)), although perhaps not quite as strongly.

While primarily an R44 pilot, I've got a tiny bit of time in an EC130 and, if I had to guess, it may have been Bruno's intention to give the G2 the feel of a larger helicopter like an EC120, 130 or the like. It might not have been entirely successful, but certainly the G2 felt to me more similar to the 130 than the R44 did. I understand that in places that might have used lower friction mechanisms higher frictions mechanisms were used intentionally (and no doubt those mechanisms were simpler, cheaper and lighter, too). So perhaps there is some advantage there for those who are going to transition directly to Eurocopter/Airbus equipment. Nevertheless, as fun as it was to trim out the ship for a hands-off demo, I particularly did not like that the friction was so high one could not feel the effects of the trim system in real-time. It was trim-test-retrim as required (for those that are wondering, yes, all the control frictions were completely off when I flew the G2).

And it really does make one appreciate the greater power reserves of the R22, much less the much greater reserves of the R44 with only two on board.

Can't speak to your local market conditions, but in the US G2 operators have still not found a way to create a competitive pricing structure for it. It remains approx. 50% more expensive than the R22 and only 20% less expensive than the R44, which makes it a very odd niche player. It seems to appeal to the older/wealthier demographic who are attracted to its sporty looks and fine interior finish (particularly compared to the typical ratty school R22) rather than for any perceived safety difference. That sort mostly winds up buying an R44 or R66 anyway in the end.

[Robbiee]

Compared to the flippy floppy Robinson, the G2 cyclic does initially feel as you describe. It shouldn't take too long to get passed that stage and I don't even think about it being heavy now. Yes, compared to an R44 with pilot only, the G2 will feel underpowered. Having said that, I've done vertical departures in the G2 (to tree top level) from confined areas with a passenger and 2hrs fuel without it running out of steam. No drama. How close were you to MTOW with G2? As for the collective, I've not found that with any of the G2's I've used. I'm no body builder, but happy to keep the collective in hand for a couple of hours if needed or just apply a little friction.

Each to their own at the end of the day.


"Flippy floppy Robinson",...?

Aw,...dude. :hmm: :sad: :eek:

[northpoint]

Definitely a maintenance issue. They are spot on when they leave the factory but will need adjustment over the the next 250-300 hours as everything beds in.

it's not a difficult job to adjust the but it's not a 15 minute job either. Flight schools are often reluctant to take what they see as a serviceable machine out of service.

The cyclic trim does take a little time to master. It does vary with speed and power and also needs quite a bit of re trimming in the first 10 minutes of flight until all the elastomeric bearings warm up. After a while you do it automatically.

[Mutley1013]

😂, no offence intended; I’m a big fan of the R22 from my PPL to hour building. The look on new passenger faces when they see the flippy floppy in question always a laugh.

[n5296s]

Thanks all for the feedback and comments. Glad I'm not the only one to feel his way.

For the record, we were on half tanks and about 100 lbs under gross. Given it takes 98% power for a 5 foot hover, I don't see that this machine is capable of HOGE - kind of unfortunate for a helicopter.

I've flown an R44 close to gross (three biggish guys and 3/4 tanks) and everything is fine. It was at the limit for HOGE but nothing terrible happens if you over-pull a little for a second or two. And that was a machine that was definitely weaker than the others, for some reason.

[malabo]

Never flown the Cabri, learned on an R22 ('cause it was the cheapest route to a license, I was paying for it myself, and the piece of paper at the end looks the same and has the same value (maybe more) in the real world. Always liked the look and tech of the Cabri, but most schools can't make the numbers work even compared to the more expensive R44. Appreciate the comments on this forum of the flying comparisons,

Local school has 6 B47 flying every day, plus 4-5 R44, plus a couple 206. Don't see anyone buying a Cabri privately. Only another school that loves Cabri will want to buy one. R44 market is huge, lots of private, commercial, schools always looking for one. Better lead-in to the commercial world for students. Instructor won't make the student walk home out of a misjudged confined area. HOGE in training? Now that's a luxury.

[Robbiee]

Never flown the Cabri, learned on an R22 ('cause it was the cheapest route to a license, I was paying for it myself, and the piece of paper at the end looks the same and has the same value (maybe more) in the real world. Always liked the look and tech of the Cabri, but most schools can't make the numbers work even compared to the more expensive R44. Appreciate the comments on this forum of the flying comparisons,

Local school has 6 B47 flying every day, plus 4-5 R44, plus a couple 206. Don't see anyone buying a Cabri privately. Only another school that loves Cabri will want to buy one. R44 market is huge, lots of private, commercial, schools always looking for one. Better lead-in to the commercial world for students. Instructor won't make the student walk home out of a misjudged confined area. HOGE in training? Now that's a luxury.

Six Bell 47's flying every day!? I didn't know that many even still existed (let alone were being used at a school)? Hell, in the last twenty years I've only come across one (outside of a museum or Heliexpo) and it was privately owned and rarely ever flew.

Given the opportunity though, I'd take one of those over a Cabri any day. Gotta support my fellow 2-bladers after all. :8

[Agile]

With respect to the G2 being under powered, I think this is partly a function of the rotor system,

Somewhere in prouty's book he mentioned the innate efficency advantage of a 2 blade long aspect rotor as in the R22/R44.
It effectively means that for the same power input you will better net thrust with such rotor configuration.

To make my point: I have found the hugues/schweizer 300 to be limited in the same way as the Cabri.
The 300 is easy to overpitch in low hover (especially if you let the RRPM a tiny bit low), risky to HOGE when it gets hot, risky to perform high performance TO, and slow (well that another problem)

I think the same point can be made between the EC120 and Bell 505 sharing the same engine but the 505 can lift 200Kg more.

[Hughes500]

Agile
Not sure what you are saying about a 300. I can quite happily let the rrpm out of the green arc pull the lever and it will happily hover, well a 300C will at least. Hovering yesterday with 3 hours of fuel 2 pax one 102 kgs the other 120 kgs the demo was loss of rrpm in hover wind the throttle back to 2800 rpm yes pull the lever up she still hovers, all you have to do is open the throttle and she recovers her RPM no problem. Much prefer the 3 bladed system to that of an R22

[MichiScholz]

Agile
Not sure what you are saying about a 300. I can quite happily let the rrpm out of the green arc pull the lever and it will happily hover, well a 300C will at least. Hovering yesterday with 3 hours of fuel 2 pax one 102 kgs the other 120 kgs the demo was loss of rrpm in hover wind the throttle back to 2800 rpm yes pull the lever up she still hovers, all you have to do is open the throttle and she recovers her RPM no problem. Much prefer the 3 bladed system to that of an R22

1 PIC and two PAX ? in an 300c - w&B with 36 GAL - you are overloaded.

[Hughes500]

MichiScholz
no we are not
Max take off weight for a 300C is 2050lbs
Ac weighs 1160 lbs
Pax are total 488 lbs
Fuel 35 gal 210
Total weight 1858 lbs so 192 under MAUW

Apology at any time or were you thinking of a CBi

[CGameProgrammerr]

The Cabri costs nearly as much as an R44 Raven I, but is slower with much less storage and half the seats. However it has a much more luxurious and upscale cockpit, every switch feels high-quality, and the visibility is better - not due to the lack of center pillar but because the instrument panel is lower, especially with glass panel, and its full-fuel range is even greater than the R44. And of course fully articulated rotor has some advantages. But the cost is very hard to justify.

[MichiScholz]

MichiScholz
no we are not
Max take off weight for a 300C is 2050lbs
Ac weighs 1160 lbs
Pax are total 488 lbs
Fuel 35 gal 210
Total weight 1858 lbs so 192 under MAUW

Apology at any time or were you thinking of a CBi


For me the abrevation pax does not include pic - so I argee with two persons on board one 265lbs and the other 225 lbs with 35 gal you are within margins and below the MTOW of 2050 lbs in a 300C.

[Robbiee]

The Cabri costs nearly as much as an R44 Raven I, but is slower with much less storage and half the seats. However it has a much more luxurious and upscale cockpit, every switch feels high-quality, and the visibility is better - not due to the lack of center pillar but because the instrument panel is lower, especially with glass panel, and its full-fuel range is even greater than the R44. And of course fully articulated rotor has some advantages. But the cost is very hard to justify.

Comparing the Cabri to the 44 is almost apples to oranges. The Cabri's real competition is the 22, 300, and Enstrom. The question is, why pay more for just another two seat piston?

[Bravo73]

The question is, why pay more for just another two seat piston?

Probably for a similar reason as to why some people want to spend £/$10,000 on a 2 seater car whilst others are happy to spend £/$100,000.

[Robbiee]

Probably for a similar reason as to why some people want to spend £/$10,000 on a 2 seater car whilst others are happy to spend £/$100,000.

That's a bit of a stretch. If the R22 were say a $12k Saturn the Cabri is certainly not a $100k Corvette. Especially since they have the same engine!

​​​​​​From what I've seen, its basically a luxury version of the 300. So that's essentially comparing a $10k car from the 60's to the same $10k car made today,...but with the same level of engine performance and still without air conditioning.

In other words, you're charging me $100 bucks more an hour than your R22 to fly this thing, but I can't take more people, its not faster, it (apparently) doesn't HOGE as well, and it doesn't come with air conditioning. So, why do you want more money for it?

[Bravo73]

…the Cabri is certainly not a $100k Corvette.

I didn’t say that it was. You are reading too much into the analogy.

To you, the price or cost would appear to be the single most important factor. To lots of others, it isn’t.

[Robbiee]

I didn’t say that it was. You are reading too much into the analogy.

To you, the price or cost would appear to be the single most important factor. To lots of others, it isn’t.

Not just price. The difference in quality of a $10k car and a $100k car is not comparable to the difference between the Cabri and its two-seat piston competition,...nor is the performance difference, especially given that an R22 is faster. Its not even avionics as R22's also have glass cockpit options.

So what's left,...body style?

[aa777888]

Actually, you can get AC in a Cabri. It's a catalog option. It'll cost you 24 lbs of payload that you can't afford to lose, and $23,000USD.

While I was perusing their online configurator, I priced a similarly equipped G2 and Raven I. Both can be had with a G500 panel, GTN navigator, GTX345, heated pitot, some USB outlets, nice paint (included on the Raven), leather, and fire extinguisher, i.e. both are super nice inside.

Cabri = $473K USD
Raven I = $508K USD.

Not sure why anyone would buy a G2 at that price point.

[Robbiee]

Actually, you can get AC in a Cabri. It's a catalog option. It'll cost you 24 lbs of payload that you can't afford to lose, and $23,000USD.

While I was perusing their online configurator, I priced a similarly equipped G2 and Raven I. Both can be had with a G500 panel, GTN navigator, GTX345, heated pitot, some USB outlets, nice paint (included on the Raven), leather, and fire extinguisher, i.e. both are super nice inside.

Cabri = $473K USD
Raven I = $508K USD.

Not sure why anyone would buy a G2 at that price point.

That close to a Raven, huh. Kinda makes me wonder why they didn't skip the two-seater and just start out with a four seat Cabri?

[helonorth]

I didn’t say that it was. You are reading too much into the analogy.

To you, the price or cost would appear to be the single most important factor. To lots of others, it isn’t.
It's a bad analogy is the problem as it helps if the two things you are comparing are analogous.

[n5296s]

So to finish the story... flew an R44 today. What a pleasure! I know people say a lot of bad things about Robbos, but compared to the G2 it is a dream to fly. It was a super flight too, all along the coast from Cannes to the Italian border at 500 feet, including a low pass along the runway at Nice - clearance very willingly given by Nice tower. Then a quick climb to 4500 feet over the mountains to an off-airport landing in the snow in the middle of nowhere, and return to Cannes.

[Agile]

So to finish the story... flew an R44 today. What a pleasure! I know people say a lot of bad things about Robbos, but compared to the G2 it is a dream to fly. It was a super flight too, all along the coast from Cannes to the Italian border at 500 feet, including a low pass along the runway at Nice - clearance very willingly given by Nice tower. Then a quick climb to 4500 feet over the mountains to an off-airport landing in the snow in the middle of nowhere, and return to Cannes.

I know this flight outing pattern, its a beauty!, you forgot ot mention the flyby above monaco before heading to the mountain.
I did this similar flight right after I got my AS350B2 type rating from them, it makes you absolutly forget anything about the G2, R44 and anything in between performance wise.
the quick climb you pointed out would go straight to 10,000ft at 2000ft per minute just by slowing from 100 knots to 80 knots (for most of the initial climb)

It's a bad analogy is the problem as it helps if the two things you are comparing are analogous.
just keeping on making bad analogies, every aircraft its own purpose and applicability.

[HeliHenri]

.
First Cabri reaching the 10 000 hours.
First flight 13 years ago (2010).
Only things overhauled during these 13 years and 10 000 hours : engine and transmission.
From the always interesting website HeliHub : https://helihub.com/2023/12/18/first-cabri-g2-reaches-10000-flight-hours/
. (https://helihub.com/2023/12/18/first-cabri-g2-reaches-10000-flight-hours/)

[hargreaves99]

G2s don't seem very popular in the UK. Almost as expensive as an R44 to train on, underpowered compared to the R22, and no obvious bigger 4 seater to to transition onto.

[Hughes500]

Hargreaves99 probably due to the expense and the fact it is not a great training helicopter. I looked at them 10 years ago would have had serial numbers 32 and 33 but didnt like the fenestron for students. Most maintenance companies dont seem to like them eg have to take engine out if alternator fails

[admikar]

.
First Cabri reaching the 10 000 hours.
First flight 13 years ago (2010).
Only things overhauled during these 13 years and 10 000 hours : engine and transmission.
From the always interesting website HeliHub : https://helihub.com/2023/12/18/first-cabri-g2-reaches-10000-flight-hours/
. (https://helihub.com/2023/12/18/first-cabri-g2-reaches-10000-flight-hours/)
How much would it cost in overhaul if it was a R22?

[hargreaves99]

Hargreaves99 probably due to the expense and the fact it is not a great training helicopter. I looked at them 10 years ago would have had serial numbers 32 and 33 but didnt like the fenestron for students. Most maintenance companies dont seem to like them eg have to take engine out if alternator fails

I don't think the fenestron per se is an issue for students who start on the Cabri at the beginning. The issue is when they get their PPL and want to fly a 4 seater to actually go places with people, they have the R44 to get used to, with all it's quirks, and the handling is so much different from the Cabri it's not unusual for people to take 10-15 hours to get their R44 rating. Whereas R22 to R44 is pretty easy.

[Agile]

How much would it cost in overhaul if it was a R22?
Simple: USD 114,000 (cost of R22 overhaul) x 5 ( 5x2000h) = USD 570,000

When I read the article linked, I get served the HX50 ad
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/860x703/add_9b3d1a8355015d72681b6eed4cc33c5688dbb90e.png

[hargreaves99]

If you are a uk flight school and you intend to buy a new two seater trainer and keep it for 10-20 years then the Cabri probably works out to be cheaper

But students just look at the hourly rate (ie Cabri is more than R22) and very few UK flight schools can afford the high upfront Cabri purchase cost and don't look more than two weeks ahead.

[Petit-Lion]

It's as if the accounting strategies in use in this industry prioritize consumable materials (including airframes) over high capital assets...