Guimbal Cabri G2

[HeliHenri]

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Typing error, the RR300 is one of the three options.

Lycoming doesn't produce diesel engine but will support by agrement the SMA engine in the field with parts and services.

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[John R81]

I've just been invited to a BBQ and 'try our new aircraft' opportunity so I hope to get a chance to fly the G2 Sunday 22nd. It seems that EBG will be getting one a Redhill at the end of the year.

[chalmondleigh]

John,

A word of warning.

Once you have tried the Cabri there is no going back.

Cabri is the future.

Enjoy.

[RPM AWARE]

I've just been invited to a BBQ and 'try our new aircraft' opportunity so I hope to get a chance to fly the G2 Sunday 22nd.

Where's that then John ....I'm quite partial to a fly-in burger ??

[Vertical Freedom]

Where's that then John ....I'm quite partial to a fly-in burger ??Hey RPM AWARE hehehe as a Vegetarian, the only Burger I'd be eatin' is a furburger :mad: :ok: (fur = salad vegetable in Nhula lingo) :{

Would Love to take Her for a REAL fly :) Hmmmm I wonder how the fenestron would behave at service ceiling? :( :* :E :O :p

Anyone know what percentage Her anti-torque system consumes out of 100% power? :eek:

Happy Landings :D

VF ;)

[John R81]

So, had a flight and a burger (in that order - always thinking "weight & Balance"). She is in truth a beauty.

I would have preferred fuel injection to remove potential carb-ice but the automated electric system is very interesting. Electronic ignition plus magneto means that it is both safe and also fuel-efficient (compared to the R22).

Comfort levels were good (5ft 11 and 90 kg) and the cabin is pretty spacious for 2. Instruments are excellent, and I particularly liked the LED landing light which meant this machine is day / night VFR without any additional lighting kit. Pop-out float kit available, I am told.

I like the belt tensioning approach - move the engine by engine-oil hydraulic pressure. Very quick engagement / disengagement. Placing the engine "backwards" means that you can get to the oil filler to check / fill.

In hover & flight, if you can fly an EC120 this machine is a dream. If anything you need to be a little quicker with "right foot" (than an EC120)due to "instant" torque change from a petrol engine but the 2,500rpm tail rotor is effective; I understand that the machine has been tested in winds to 50knt, though it was a still day today. It is very stable, though. In forward flight - like the EC120 - the tail fan provides little / no anti-torque as the fin takes over. If you are used to US machines then some familiarisation with fenestron tail will be part of the conversion training.

I de-selected the force trim (hat up 2-sec, then left 2-sec) and found the machine much better to fly after that (for me). No hydraulics, so a little heavier than the EC120 / R44 but no problem. She is very, very stable for a small machine. Rate climb and cruise speed are good, noise levels are low and the visibility is fantastic.

I had a go a at "waltzing" the machine along the airfield (torque-spin and travel) and found her to be eminently controllable, with less fore-aft cyclic input than required for the same manoeuver in the EC120. I get the impression that if you do lose yaw control for real the rate of rotation is likely to be very high though and a "chop throttle" might be the most appropriate response, given the rotor momentum (higher ratio to weight than a Jet Ranger)!

Not a problem for me, but coming in to the HLS, be aware that you should be ahead of the machine in yaw control because the contribution of the tail fin reduces as airspeed drops. If you allow left-yaw to develop (inadequate right foot) then as you slow the problem must get worse. If you don't contain the yaw adequately then when the angle of attack on the tail gets beyond (20 degrees?) there will be sudden loss of tail effect which might lead to a torque-induced spin. Stay ahead of things and there is no problem - the tail fan is adequate if you are flying the machine right.

Safety is very much improved, both in terms of crash-resistant seats / cabin / skids but also fantastic rotor energy (carbon blades, but tip weights) for such a small machine. I would be happy to fly this (not actually prepared to fly an R22 myself, though an R44 is fine).

John

EDITED TO ADD: It seems there will be a G2 available for flight training at Redhill from November. I will probably go for a type rating and then I can have some fun.

[chalmondleigh]

John,

A very succinct appraisal of the Cabri although I had to admit that your comment about de-selecting the cyclic trim sent me scurrying for my POH in case I had missed something.

Rule of thumb for the trim when reducing power and speed on the approach is 2 secs down and 2 secs right. Your movement of 2 secs up and 2 secs left re-set the approx trim condition for forward flight in climb or cruise which does indeed make life easier.

Just made a rough and ready look at G-INFO and could not see a new R22 registered here for at least five years which makes the UK sales of the Cabri all the more remarkable.

In addition to the huge leap in safety offered by the Cabri it is not only more enjoyable to fly but in the longer term will cost less to operate. True, insurance may be more as it is related to hull value but there is no 12 year general overhaul requirement except for the Lycoming engine. At 2,200 hours only the two gearboxes and engine need to be overhauled. As service history builds it is the intention of the factory to increase the gearbox TBOs to 4,400 hours giving a further reduction in operating costs.

[HeliHenri]

.

Hello John,

The wise chalmondleigh had warmed you saturday : "Once you have tried the Cabri there is no going back" ;)

You own and fly both R44 and EC120 (happy man), yet you're going to get a Cabri QT and fly her just for fun, that's a nice compliment to her !

Enjoy your future flights :)

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[CRAN]

Got to fly the Cabri on Friday and absolutely loved it. A thoroughly modern airframe, smooth, responsive and enjoyable to fly.

Well done to Bruno and his team, its a lovely aircraft and a treat to fly.

Bring on the G4/G5!

CRAN
:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

[Ian Corrigible]

CRAN,

Interesting you should say that -- the HeliDATA show daily at Helitech suggested that Guimbal is already working on a four-seater, "probably" powered by a diesel or turbine.

I/C

[CRAN]

Ian,

From what I have heard it is essentially a certainty and either option would be well received provided the price/performance was acceptable.

Most territories around the world (except US) are hungry for a diesel helicopter in this segment, but the engines are all still that bit too heavy really. Turbine power behind such a machine would be fantastic from a performance and soundtrack perspective, but it will be expensive and won't sell in the numbers that the R44 was pre the financial crisis.

My guess is that we will end up with a Lycoming powered G4 that will be a little more expensive than an R44 RII.

I have no doubt that such a machine would be as well received as the G2 and should be very pretty too.

Exciting years ahead!

CRAN
:ok:

[John R81]

Thanks for the corrections to my text (not changed, as the later posts clarify).

HeliHenry - making money whilst having fun. Although I do fly them, my machines work for a living.

[HeliHenri]

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Quite well equipped for a 2 seats light piston (Heli-Union Training Center) :





http://nsa34.casimages.com/img/2013/10/11/131011091931166686.jpg (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=131011091931166686.jpg)




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[John R81]

Looks like you took that photo from the back seat! :ok:

[Flying Bull]

Hi,
evenso the bird is only intended to fly VFR, I would rather prefer the standard T-layout for the "vital" instruments.
Still, if you stay VFR and fly in nice weather, it shouldn´t be a problem - but a trained scan could be helpful sometimes....
Greetings Flying Bull

[KiwiNedNZ]

Was chatting with friend here in LA today and he asked is the G2 FAA certified and if not will it be as they are interested in getting one.

Thanks

[helihub]

I believe the plan is for FAA certification, but no timescale. Short term important job is to ramp up the production rate and find suitably qualified workforce to assist that. Guimbal is not short on orders!

[RVDT]

Might be a while if you consider the product liability issue in the USA.

The "elephant in the room".

Cant see it happening too soon.

[birrddog]

In another part of my business life, I have an advisory connection to business brining another European aviation company to the US, working on FAA certification.

As I understand it, in theory there is an agreement between Europe and the US that type certificates should be a check the boxes paperwork exercise as they are supposed to recognize each others certifications, though in reality lots of politicking and lobbying in the background to get through the process, though the wheels turn slowly....

Though I am confident there are many here for more suitably positioned to comment!

[Spunk]

Maybe it's just a question of not growing too rapidly.
As far as I understand Guimbal is very busy and the lead time for a factory new G2 is quite a while. If Bruno opened up a new market in the US right now he might displease potential customers in Europe or elsewhere.
Grant him some time to increase the production line in France and I'm pretty sure that soon or later we'll see one or the other G2 in the US.
:ok:

[2Sticks]

Hi Guys
Just picked up this article in Rotor & Wing. Apologies if it appears in another thread elsewhere. Rotor & Wing Magazine :: Guimbal Unveils Cabri Maintenance Numbers (http://www.aviationtoday.com/rw/personal-corporate/executive-transport/80344.html?RWSafetyTraining#.Um_9WdpFBaQ)

2S

[HeliHenri]

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I like the paint scheme, modern and elegant :ok: (operator Swiss Helicopter) :




http://nsa34.casimages.com/img/2013/10/31/131031103048623998.jpg (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=131031103048623998.jpg)




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[SARWannabe]

Looks like the tail has melted & drooped :\

[HeliHenri]

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Polish Air Force takes delivery of two Guimbal G2 Cabri :

"Poland's Guimbal representatives, JB Investments, have announced that the two new Cabri G2 for the Polish Air Force have arrived at The Academic Center for Aviation Training of Polish Air Force Academy at Deblin air base."

From HeliHub : Polish Air Force takes delivery of two Guimbal G2 Cabri | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source (http://helihub.com/2013/11/01/polish-air-force-takes-delivery-of-two-guimbal-g2-cabri/)

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[starflex3]

I have noticed that almost all Cabri G2's have a white top on the tail, why? Do you have to have a white top on the tail, is it because it is composite and it reflects the sun off it, only reason I could come up with?

[kneedwondean]

You're right, it's to reflect heat. Stops the composite/glue getting too hot in direct sunlight.

[HillerBee]

It's also because of the heat coming of the exhaust. The carbon fibre should get to hot, so you're not allowed to paint it differently.

[jymil]

Swiss Helicopter has the Cabri still grounded since an accident back in the summer. Apparently they are not convinced it's safe to fly.

[Freewheel]

Oh that's hilarious!

[jymil]

Not sure if the fan falling off during flight and damaging the engine is really hilarious ..

[H-Addict]

I've got about 200 hours Cabri G2 so far. The more I fly it the more I think it's a superb aircraft to train pilots in.

I'd like to bump this thread because it's interesting hearing from other Cabri operators around the world and your experiences good and bad. Having met Bruno at Helitech in September I'm even more convinced this aircraft will be the future of flight training.

Maybe we can get some more photos coming in? I'll try and get some photos up later this week.

H

[Jelico]

Im looking for a secondhand Cabri G2, if anyone knows of one going. Ideally with 500-1000 hrs and the vibration balance upgrades done.. Please PM me if you know of anything - can't find much!

[HeliHenri]

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First G2 in Portugal (HTA Helicopteros) :

HTA Helicopteros | Portugal (http://www.htahelicopteros.com/#!cabri-g2-en/cpv6)


http://nsa34.casimages.com/img/2013/12/17/131217043302454509.jpg (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=131217043302454509.jpg)


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[HeliHenri]

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All the Cabri G2 delivered next year are already sold. Well, that's not a real news ;)

But among them, 3 will go to ...... the US (FAA certification soon), that's the real news !!! :ok:

Next year will also see the Chinese certification.


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[HeliHenri]

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Vietnam Helicopter Corporation (VNH), an Oil and Gas operator in South East Asia (and Europe) has just ordered 2 Cabri G2 for training.


"Vietnam Helicopter Corp has ordered two G2 Cabri helicopters from Hélicoptères Guimbal in France - for delivery this summer. Following a year-long selection process, including flight evaluation and a government bidding procedure, the purchasing contract was signed in Hanoï between General Ha Tien Dung, VNH chairman and CEO, and Roland Mampe, director of programme at Hélicoptères Guimbal.


For Bruno Guimbal, president and CEO of the manufacturer: "with this important success, which follows several others including Heli-Union, the Polish Air Force and the Lithuanian Civil Aviation University, the Cabri G2 is proving itself the best training helicopter, and particularly for professional pilots aiming at heavy helicopters. This is the result of three years of in-the-field proving in smaller structures."
The manufacturer starts 2014 with a strong order book increase, now extending to 2015, despite taking into account a strong production rate ramp-up."


http://nsa31.casimages.com/img/2014/02/07/140207023816870572.jpg (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=140207023816870572.jpg)


Vietnam Helicopter Corp orders two Cabri | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source (http://helihub.com/2014/01/07/vietnam-helicopter-corp-orders-two-cabri/)


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[HeliHenri]

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Im looking for a secondhand Cabri G2, if anyone knows of one going. Ideally with 500-1000 hrs and the vibration balance upgrades done.. Please PM me if you know of anything - can't find much!


Hello Jelico,

You're not the only one looking for a G2 !

there was two G2 for sale some weeks ago (one French and the other German) but they didn't stay for long.

One of your compatriot had more luck than you, he found one with a very nice blue color in Holland, sn/003 arrived yesterday (23 dec) in NZ , nice present for Christmas :), you can find the story and pictures on the very good blog "NZ CIVIL AIRCRAFT" ( don't know why but I can't put the link directly)

Edit : in fact, two of your compatriots had luck !

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[Helicentre Aviation]

We'll soon be taking delivery of the third Cabri G2 to join our fleet, with number four joining us later in 2014. Exciting times!

[HeliHenri]

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With the second hand's one arrived for Christmas, one new and another second hand one (from France) arriving at the end of january, there'll be seven G2 in the All Blacks' land soon :)

A nice short video from one of the operators there :


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxvWmW7Ha3k


P.S : nice shoes ... NZ is realy not like here ;)


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[H-Addict]

http://www.flyheli.co.uk/images/misc/3cabris2web.JPG

http://www.flyheli.co.uk/images/misc/3cabris1web.JPG

Some pics I shot yesterday of Cabri G2s hard at work.

[HeliHenri]

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There are now 3 more cabri G2 in NZ, one new (ZK HCS) and two second hand (ZK HVZ ex Dutch and ZK IZR ex French).

There will be one more new next month to Wanaka Helicopters (Guimbal Cabri G2 ? Wanaka Helicopters (http://www.wanakahelicopters.co.nz/flight-training/guimbal-cabri-g2/)) and 4 others will arrive before the end of the year.

So there will be this year, a total of 12 G2 in the country :)


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[chalmondleigh]

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o279/chalmondleigh/aada8a58-2012-498f-b0b9-ac1ade9fef36_zpsdc4d8fd9.jpg?t=1391188495

[Pat Malone]

Two more Cabri accidents in Germany, on February 1 and February 4 – D HAVC and D HAIG. Both look to have identical causes, spinning out of control in the hover. I suspect both will be put down to pilot error, but perhaps we're not teaching people enough about the differences between a tail rotor and a fenestron. The last 10 percent of pedal travel has a lot of punch with the fenestron, and the cure is to put in full opposite pedal, then sit and wait – and don't raise the collective if you can possibly avoid it because that will increase torque. Easy to say, not so easy to do in extremis... the Gazelle and the EC120 had the same problem.

[HeliHenri]

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German Cabri at Belgian Open Helicopter Championships 2013


Hello chalmondleigh,

How did the G2 (and his crew;)) managed ?

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[Vertical Freedom]

why the hell did they not add fuel injection to the donk :{ :{ :{

that's just plain stupid, not to add that important piece of kit :=

but, would Love to fly her :ok:

[HeliCentre Holland]

We have bought S/N 1010 (D-HJOY) and in the spring of this year it will be added to our ATO. We currently use the R22/R44 for training and we are really looking forward to the Cabri..

[EDML]

The G2 has got automatic carburator heat. The system works very well and reliable.

Marcus

[Vertical Freedom]

Hey Marcus

It may be working fine, but applying injection would have eliminated the need for a carb-heat & improved performance, dumb decision not too :ooh:

Very keen to fly her :p

Happy Landings :ok:

[rjtjrt]

It can be argued that in a training helicopter the need to remember Carb Heat and apply it is a good habit to ingrain.
One reason why I liked the 22beta, rather than the beta2 with it's automatic Carb heat system.
I also liked being trained in non use of governor, and full down autos in nil wind, but I guess I am too old fashioned.
Predict VF will feel the need now for a somewhat predictable crapinsonflimsicopter rant!

[Vertical Freedom]

Morning rjtjrt

The Guimbal team have created such an awesome MODERN (reliable) machine, yet forgot to fuel inject her......that's all I'm saying :8 Otherwise WoW ;)

As for the flimsy - Crapinson.......that's another story :yuk:

the G2 is built ROBUST :} the Robi - (sadly) NOT :eek:

Happy Landings - always :ok:

[HeliHenri]

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From Rotor & Wing February 2014 :

"Cabri Operators Give Guimbal High Grades  :
Rotor & Wing spoke to a number of Cabri users to gather their feedback and compile an Operator’s Report about the French-built training helicopter."

Link : Rotor & Wing Magazine :: Cabri Operators Give Guimbal High Grades?? (http://www.aviationtoday.com/rw/training/ratings/Cabri-Operators-Give-Guimbal-High-Grades&thinsp_81153.html)


Most parts of the article :


Positive :

" Since the first Guimbal Cabri G2 was delivered in 2008, the new piston single has progressively gathered acceptance among pilot training organizations. It seems the two-seater has achieved its main goal – providing a modern platform for ab initio helicopter training.

The three-blade main rotor garnered great praises from all interviewed instructors. “It is a big benefit when you fly in mountainous areas, as you no longer have to fear mast bumping,” said Christian Jacquot, head of training with Heli-Challenge.

Therefore, it improves maneuverability, he added, and there is no more risk of inadvertent mast bumping in turbulence. Michael Gille, head of training with Swiss Helicopter, concurred, reminding that two-blade rotors are “a bit infamous in Switzerland.”

Jan Krcil, an instructor with Lion Helicopters, sees autorotation training as much safer due to the high inertia of the rotor. Jacquot agrees – “you can start an autorotation with a speed as low as 35 knots, which is much lower than the Robinson R22’s 60 knots minimum speed for autorotation,” he stressed.

Tim Broder, manager of international flight training with Heli Aviation, added that the autorotation can be performed in a wide range of rpm – wider than the allowed range of rpm on the R22.

“And you can safely do it to the ground,” added Northern Helicopters CEO Mikael Randhem. Gille was impressed to see a Guimbal test pilot coming to one of Swiss Helicopter’s bases and showing how to make the most of the Cabri’s capability in autorotation.

Compared to the R22, it is more robust and forgiving in case of hard landing, according to Sarah Bowen, Helicentre Aviation’s chief flying instructor. Jacquot also expressed satisfaction with the energy-absorbing seats. “If something happens, you’ll walk away"

What about costs? A Cabri G2, in its baseline version, sells for €293,000 ($395,000). By contrast, a Robinson R22 sells for $276,000. But an R22 overhaul costs twice that of a Cabri, according to Guimbal.

Those operators having both a R22 and a Cabri in their fleet mentioned no significant difference in operating costs before the 2,200-hour overhaul. “After that, the Cabri gets cheaper,”


Overall, the Cabri spends little time in maintenance, Krcil said. As an example, he referred to the 50-hour check, which just takes three hours.

All interviewed operators said parts availability is now good or very good.

One feature of Helicopteres Guimbal seems to be the personal relationship customers get. “We are in touch with a person in particular rather than with a department,” Gille said. Another operator said it is relatively easy to talk to Bruno Guimbal about a specific issue.


Negative :


Northern Helicopters is rather concerned by rising parts prices.

Maybe the most serious criticism against the Cabri, as expressed by Jacquot, was on vibration at high speed. Fortunately, the situation has recently improved, he admitted, thanks to a counter-vibration system based on bobweights that are tuned to vibrate in antiphase.

Guimbal acknowledged the problem and pointed out that users were complaining about the variability of the vibration they were feeling at a given speed. “It involves very low levels of energy so a small payload change can translate into a large change in vibration,” he explained.

As he emphasized, the passive counter-vibration system is very common in the helicopter industry – he mentioned the Eurocopter (http://www.aviationtoday.com/search/?query=Eurocopter) Super Puma and the Bell 407, among others.

On the Cabri, it adds 2.2 lbs of weight but divides the vibration level by 10 at 100 knots, he said. “It delivers impeccable performance up to 120 knots,” Guimbal added. Almost all in-service Cabris have been fitted with the system and it is now production standard."

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[Matari]

I'll go out on a limb here and guess that Bruno Guimbal and his design team carefully weighed the mission requirements against the pros and cons of carburetion and fuel injection.

I somehow doubt that the decision was either "dumb" or ill-considered. Just because a pilot disagrees with a design consideration doesn't make the configuration "stupid."

Likewise, I wonder if the gushing over the reliability and robustness of a design is valid without understanding the total flight hours vs. other designs, and without having seen one up close.

[Reely340]

I concur with the others, saying that a carburated engine in an post year 2000 design simply is an inexcusable mistake. :=

I trained on an S-300C w/o governor (there exists a fine governor option but it's very expensive, and thanks to the thottle's pitch coupling not really necessary).
Its pneumatic/hydraulic FI system is virutally fool prove, icing immune, ambient pressure compensated and does not depend on electricity either.

I simply refuse to fiddle with mixture and/or carb heating for the same reasons I do not want to adjust the ignition advance :8 on my motorcycle, or pull some timing advance lever on my diesel van for cold starting anymore. That is engineering stone age (my dad could set ignition adv. on his MC, back in 1948), especially as



the very engine is available as a fuel injected version, a proven design for half a century now:D AND



there had been accidents, including fatal ones, in carb heated Robbies due to mishandling of the heating.:yuk:


IIRC even someone trying to demostrate the G2's resiliance to low G flying (it has no tethering rotor head, duh) managed to kill the engine mid filght, allegedly because the carb's float bowl doesn't like low G either. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

With fuel injection it would have a much better track record, at least two incidents less: http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/459202-guimbal-cabri-g2-crash-lelystad-airport-2.html#post6619617


Until they upgrade it to FI, it is a beautiful, sturdy, modern, but stupid package. YMMV

Peter

PS: as piston engine for a modern design I'd have chosen the turbo charged, fuel injected HIO-360-E1BD (225HP!) of the 280FX, proven and well known.

[HeliHenri]

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Until they upgrade it to FI, it is a beautiful, sturdy, modern, but stupid package. YMMV

Peter

PS: as piston engine for a modern design I'd have chosen the turbo charged, fuel injected HIO-360-E1BD (225HP!) of the 280FX, proven and well known.

Hello Peter,

Thanks for all the technical advises.

You've chosen the piston engine for a modern design, which was the most difficult part of the job, now you've just have to put some stuff around and certifying the whole thing and that's it, you're now the manufacturer of the best training helicopter !

I'm not at all a specialist but may I just point out that you're referring to an aircraft (280FX) that is a very good helicopter but … that is not in the same category than the G2 for several reasons.

For example, the G2 maximum gross weight is 700 kgs and the 280FX around 1200 kgs that is about 70 % more (I'm sure you understand the importance of weight in an aircraft).

The G2 is a two seater and the 280FX a three seater.

And about the engine as you seem to be a specialist in this field, the engine of the G2 delivers 145 HP and the engine of the 280FX delivers 225 HP. By the way, the right model of the 280FX engine is the HIO 360-F1AD.


So please, when you're insulting people (I don't count myself amoung them), do it with intelligence and real arguments, ( I know that it's not as simple as producing an helicopter) but it's so much rewarding.

.

[mdovey]

Two more Cabri accidents in Germany, on February 1 and February 4 – D HAVC and D HAIG. Both look to have identical causes, spinning out of control in the hover ... the Gazelle and the EC120 had the same problem.

Is that "had" the same problem, or "have"?

If the former, how was it resolved?

Would it not be possible to introduce some mechanical linkage to amplify the initial pedal input and reduce the later pedal input so that the pedal input was more linear and closer to that of a standard tail rotor? (I'm genuinely interested - not trying to criticise Guimbol or Eurocopter).

Matthew

[Reely340]

You've chosen the piston engine for a modern design, which was the most difficult part of the job, now you've just have to put some stuff around and certifying the whole thing and that's it, you're now the manufacturer of the best training helicopter ! Please point out where I insinuated that. :hmm:

Personally I'd assume the engine - when reserving a not to limiting amount of space in one's design - is the "easiest" part to change, see AS350 SD1/2 "upgrades". Which makes it as incomprehensible as I tried to point out, why on earth they did not use a FI engine in the first place.

And about the engine as you seem to be a specialist in this field, the engine of the G2 delivers 145 HP and the engine of the 280FX delivers 225 HP.I just meant to point out the strongest available Lycomming "360" fuel injected piston engine, insinuating that there is plenty power availabe. I could have pointed to the "mere" 190hp Lycomming of thousands of S-300C/Hu-269 training helis, or the even weaker one in the 300CBi, if one wants to trade hot and high capability for efficiency.

My point was that they very easily could have chosen a fuel injected engine instead of that carbed turd.

So please, when you're insulting people (I don't count myself amoung them), do it with intelligence and real arguments, ( I know that it's not as simple as producing an helicopter) but it's so much rewarding.
It was never my intention to insult someone := (Dad taught me that people who start insulting others or begin to raise their voice typically lack real arguments, but are unable to admit to that)

I merely pointed out how alien their choice of powerplant was in my view, for such an otherwise modern and cool heli.
btw. your cynism was well noted, as was the lack of explanation from your side why their choice of engine were not as bad as I had stipulated.

Maybe you'd want to try to counter my statement w/o cynism? ;)

No joking here, I'm eager to learn, why they did that. Is the carb version with all the heating stuff maybe still cheaper than the FI one? :confused:

I mean, seriously, - given the ficticious chance - how many people would WANT to swap their FI piston engine with a carburated one?
Honestly, would you do that, if you'd own a piston heli?

Peter, as usual genuinly interested

[Hughes500]

Reely

One of the reasons I didn't buy 2 of them to replace my 3 x 300C's was the carb. Even Schweizer got rid of carbs in the 1970's went back to them with the CB for a couple of years before binning them for FI with the cbi !!!!!!!

[HeliHenri]

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One of the reasons I didn't buy 2 of them to replace my 3 x 300C's was the carb
Hello H500,

Happy to see you again on this topic !

do you remember this post from you, one year ago, talking to me and starting by " I would love to buy 2 of the machines" : http://www.pprune.org/7522796-post316.html (page 16 of the topic), the reasons you gave at that time for not buying them was the not nice distributor and the waranty not good enough, nothing in all your posts (quite a lot in this topic) about the engine.

I must say that you're really not someone easy to understand.

Edit : just before the post I'm talking about, there is this one http://www.pprune.org/7521310-post314.html where you start by : "Well only problem I can see with the G2 ( i was about to replace a S300C with one) is the warranty or rather lack of warranty"

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[HeliHenri]

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Peter,

It was never my intention to insult someone

So I'm verry sorry about my comment, I thought that "stupid" (lacking intelligence) was an insult ...

the lack of explanation from your side why their choice of engine were not as bad as I had stipulated.


Well, is the very good feedback given by the operators and the order book fill still next year, a good explanation to say that their choice of engine was not as bad as you had stipulated ?

I'm eager to learn, why they did that. Is the carb version with all the heating stuff maybe still cheaper than the FI one?

The "stupid" (as you say) Bruno Guimbal gives two reasons for that choice, weight and cost.


I mean, seriously, - given the ficticious chance - how many people would WANT to swap their FI piston engine with a carburated one?
Honestly, would you do that, if you'd own a piston heli?


You mean, if I have to choose between a brand new G2 and a brand new H300 ?
Well, both of them are good aircraft but even without a FI engine I go for the G2, in fact I haven't the choice, hard to find a new H300.

.

[Freewheel]

Before the argument descends into something requiring post culling, if somebody wants a Cabri with fuel injection, feel free to put together an STC and get your money back selling it to H500 and others.



Oh and as for the insinuation that the gazelle and the g2 have common aerodynamic flaws, Bunkum!:=

[Hughes500]

HH

Warranty was the major problem and if you recall so was insurance, which at the time it was more expensive to insure than one of my 500's on loadlfting ! The Feneston wasn't a problem as I have about a 1000 hours on a 341/342.
However would still buy one if warranty was sorted, insurance is now more reasonable although recent crashes may not be helping !

[Hughes500]

HH

Please tell me how much heavier a fuel injected engine is compared to a carb ? If you put a carb in your hand and an injector there is very little weight difference ! Would have thought fuel injection was more efficient !

[HeliHenri]

.

H500,

I do see your point but as you already know, my surname is Henri, not Bruno so I don't have all the real elements concerning the integration of the engine in the G2 to answer.

If you are waiting for an aircraft that suits at 100 % all your needs, unfortunately you will have to be very patient and you're well aware of that.

I don't know why (really just a feeling) but I'm almost sure that you will take a decision before the end of the year :)

.

[FLY 7]

I would have to agree with the other comments about the carburettor and carb heat.


I've followed the little G2's development with casual interest, and there's a lot to commend it. But, in terms of an advanced design, the use of a carburettor fed engine seems very contradictory.


It may well work fine, but an unnecessary step backwards IMO.

[heli1]

I hesitate to join this discussion but having flown a two seat helicopter with fuel injection for the past 20 plus years,I have found it reliable and worry free.Every one less thing to think about ticks my box.

[John R81]

I have flown the G2 (very short) and liked it. I would like it even more with fuel injection. Shortly (this month?) I might have more regular access to a G2 and then build some hours so the carburettor is not going to keep me out of the machine but I am not buying one yet either.

If I were in charge of rules, I would not allow certification of any new carburettor engine for aircraft or certify the design of any new aircraft that used an existing approved carburettor engine. There is additional risk over the proven alternative of FI and it is risk that we don't need to take. I would like to see carburettor engines phased out of aircraft (not trying to stop any existing machine from being flown / manufactured / sold). Perhaps such a rule change is the only way to ensure that we move on.

[HeliHenri]

.

Hello JR81,

You're going to fly with EBG at Redhill ?:) (They should receive their new G2 at the end of this month).

.

[John R81]

That's the plan HH

Though when I get back to the UK Friday it will be the 120 this weekend.

[Reely340]

Well, is the very good feedback given by the operators and the order book fill still next year, a good explanation to say that their choice of engine was not as bad as you had stipulated ?No, it is not. Especially as it is not your explanation - which I was asking for - why it was a good choice. Back in the old days, Eastern Germans where cueing up to buy that plastic Trabant car. Great sales is not necessarily a sign of engineering quality.

The "stupid" Bruno Guimbal gives two reasons for that choice, weight and cost.Here, I have to lean out of the window and claim: He is lying.

If he were right, then back in the last century Schweizer/Sikorsky would have decided just for the fun of ruining revenue and performance to modify their 300CB (carburated) training heli to a "heavier, more expensive" ((c)Bruno) 300CBi (FI) successor.
I don't buy that. :ugh:
I'd need to see serious data to back that claim.

You mean, if I have to choose between a brand new G2 and a brand new H300 ?No. If you actually read what I asked you, you might find that I was inquiring if YOU would want to swap an FI engine in favour of an carbureted one, everything unchanged. Let me rephrase that question once again:

Given the ficticious chance, would you personally want to "upgrade" your ficticious heli's FI engine to a similarly powered carburated one, just from the technical point of view, lets assume someone else would be paying...?

If yes, please elaborate why.

[malc4d]

Is it still unavailable in the US ?

[HeliHenri]

.
Is it still unavailable in the US ?

Hello malc4d,

The G2 should be in the US this year (as I mentionned it two pages ago ;))

.

[HeliHenri]

.
Here, I have to lean out of the window and claim: He is lying.


Reely340,

You are going too far.

Several members of this forum know personally the person you are talking about, maybe they will add something about your statement above.

But as far as I'm concerned, I won't talk to you anymore.

.

[Reely340]

Reely340,
You are going too far.
Deliberate provocation, one has to beat the bush to stirr up some answers. :p

Several members of this forum know personally the person you are talking about, maybe they will add something.
That would be great, :D exactly what I've been searching for since hearing about the G2. :ok:
If there are personal friends of him on that forum, there must be someone knowing the real reason for him choosing an icing- and low G sensitive engine configuration for his otherswise really great aircraft. :confused:

I'm pretty sure Mr. Guimbal knew about S300C/CB/CBi engine history, R22 accidents etc. He hopefully did not draw straws while designing, hence I am genuinely interested in the underlying decision leading to a carburated engine...

But as far as I'm concerned, I won't talk to you anymore.That's a pity. You were a cute tree to rub against :E

I'd still like to hear from you if you personally really think carburated is better than FI.

And if not, I'd hoped to hear from you as many reasons as are thinkable, be them finacial (inital cost / maintennance cost), political (no FI for the french coalition deserters ?), psychological... that might justify Guimbal's decision. I really am at the beginning of my helicopter industry intrinsics learning curve, and are craving insights into its backgrounds.

The only thing I admittedly have a problem with is statemants like "I'm right just because", I do plead guilty in that respect, especially in technical discussions. I never was good at merely believing "higher authorities", w/o being presented sesible reasoning.

[RVDT]

FI or Carb?

I guess nobody has picked up on the fact that the "Carb Heat" on the G2 is "Automatic" and controlled by the EPM.

There are built in "self tests" and indications of system failures.

If you revert to "manual" or have any doubts you should select "HOT" whenever below 80% MLI.

Carb definitely starts a lot easier. FI has its own little foibles and is not the only answer.

With respect to FI - Lycoming would have to certify another engine as there is no equivalent to the current 360 model as used that is injected. It is not a case of just bolting an FI system on the existing engine.

A carburetor is lighter and cheaper to overhaul and or repair. USD 500.00 versus USD 5000.00.?

As to the zero G cuts - what were these people doing? If it was the competition the rotor probably would have departed as well.

The aircraft was developed personally by Bruno and first flew in 1992. I think his solution is a pretty good one.

Anybody ever experienced icing in a G2? Possibly not.

http://www.aviastar.org/foto/guimbal_cabri.jpg

[Hughes500]

RVDT

Fuel injector on a 300 C costs £ 750 to overhaul where do you get $ 5000 from ?

[HeliHenri]

.


Heli Aviation (Germany) takes delivery of its eighth Cabri G2 ! :ok:

Press release*- Heli Aviation GmbH (http://www.heli-aviation.de/en/media/press/press-release/article/heli-aviation-erhaelt-achte-cabri-g2/)

" With the eight Guimbal helicopter participating actively in training operations, Heli Aviation is continuing to develop its global competence advantage in respect of Cabri G2 and additionally satisfies the claim of operating the largest G2 fleet in the world used in an aviation school."

.

[Hughes500]

Just to liven things up, pity Bruno didn't put a diesel in it ( I have discussed it with him HH before getting too excited )

[HeliHenri]

.

Hello H500 ;),

So what is his point of view about this subject ?

Must be interesting because if I remember well, he has worked for a firm producing diesel engines for fixed wings aircraft.

Diesel engine seems to be one of the three options examined for the G4.

.

[Spunk]

I'm not a fan of carburator equipped engines in aircraft either and never understood nor will understand why Bruno put one in the G2.
Frpm what I have heard he decided to do so cause a lot of pilots/flight instructors asked him to do so.
The argument was that the carburator equipped engine starts a lot easier (Personally I disagree on that one).
As far as the the zero G cuts are concerned, you really have to push it over and hold it there for a loooooong time before you get even close to cut off the engine. Not a manoeuver you want to show any of your students or to any other kind of spectators.
The Cabri is a great machine to fly with and for x-mas I want one with a fuel injector. :O

Heli Aviation (Germany) takes delivery of its eighth Cabri G2 !
Shouldn't it say SEVENTH :mad:after last weeks that little mishap :{

[Hughes500]

Spunk it sums our industry up if flight instructors ( who normally have next to no experience ) asked him to put a carb in it !!
If you know what you are doing with FI then no problem. It is laughable that in 2014 we cant get a FI engine to start at a turn of a key !!! Now if your BMW or any car had the dramas that we put up with in aviation ...............
When will the regulatory bodies get their head out of the sand with certification rules. Currently Ford have a predicted failure rate of their engines of 10million to 1 bet Lycoming gets nowhere near that
G2 has a plasma start so presumably starting with FI would be no problem

HH diesel to heavy currently !! I assume too expensive to make out of aluminium ?

[Reely340]

With respect to FI - Lycoming would have to certify another engine as there is no equivalent to the current 360 model as used that is injected. It is not a case of just bolting an FI system on the existing engine. Why that? There is the proven 180HP FI engine of the 300CBi. Would it be that much a drama that it could output 35 ponies more than the stock G2's engine?

These 35 hp would have added great power reserves / hot and high capabilities / additional loading options to the otherwise great G2!

I'm still waiting for an explanation why they were not using the CBi's "heli certified" FI engine. IIRC even the mounting direction would be comparable. (e.g. no need for vertical crank..)

Carb definitely starts a lot easier.I don't believe that either, this time from personal experience firing up FI in summer and winter:
One of our 300Cs has the standard starter, the other one some hi-torque STC(?) version. Granted they turn over the engine at different speeds but both fire up nicely, as soon as one has developed a feeling for how much throttle each type wants when cold.

[Reely340]

It is laughable that in 2014 we cant get a FI engine to start at a turn of a key !!! Basicall I am 100% with you on this one, I found out that apparently there was a long lasting dislike of any kind of electronics when designing an aircraft. To me it feels as if the engineers, while designing, constantly had been pestered by the sales guys with questions/requests like this
"and it will not rely on the battery when airborne?",
"naa, do it pnematically, no electrics please",
"jeeez, the ignition advance must be mechanical, if at all necessary"
"does the oil pressure gauge have to be an eletric instument?"
"we'd want the attitude indicator to be suction powered"
....

Now if your BMW or any car had the dramas that we put up with in aviation *cough* a very bad example:=:
Head of IT of one of my customers drives a 320i, nicely upgrading the model every 4-5 years. He told me the story when once the engine simply died while passing, in fast lane, as if switching off the ignition. Wont start up anymore. He had it carried to the BMW mech. "Well known effect, we can fix that, we'll dump your bricked EFI controller and you get a fresh one, costs just 1500 bucks".

University collague of mine (eletronics, redundancy, automotive bus systems) claimed manufacturers see electronification mostly as cost saving feature. They do not like to over engineer their stuff to make it "russian style" bullet prove.

And IIRC the german triple-A (ADAC) once reported, that the majority of car breakdown service calls (ignoring running out of fuel :ugh:) nowadays, are electronics related.


So both things seem to hint that there HAD BEEN good reasons to stay clear of computerized systems for vital function that are not engineered with military reserves built in.

But personally I'm happy to see FADECs pop up everywhere. Honeywell has shown how far TBOs can be expanded on an individual case by case basis if something monitors engine data in real time á la HUMS. I'd say counting cycles and hours will be a thing of the past, as will hard TOT limits. The engine monitoring computer will soon output "HSI in 12:51 h from now", and the gentle pilots will be rewarded by longer TBOs. :E

[cockney steve]

The automotive world had injection foisted upon it by increasingly stringent emissions requirements.
During my mechanicing days, I rapidly learned that the Bosch injection system could produce low fuel consumption and a perfect burn, as evidenced by the pale chocolate-coloured exhaust and spark-plug deposits.....However, It did not give the ultimate power...for that, you slapped on some Weber 40 DCOE's.....thirsty but delivered extra horses.
Presumably an aircraft system can be programmed differently (Chipped) to sacrifice economy for outright power, when needed.

A carb, in it's purest formis very robust, simple and efficient....I think the thousands of Rotax that have dilited the lycosaurus market monopoly, are carburetted by Bing...a simple slide and needle setup, somewhat less advanced than the constant-vacuum SU or it's ripoff Kei Hin counterpart. The SU was at it's zenith when the needle was rigidly mounted to stay concentric within the jet...the idiotic idea to spring-bias the needle so it destroyed it's own and the jet's metering accuracy,killed the product

having said that, a new biased needle and matching jet can be had for under £30, to restore "as new" performance

Single-point injection still carries a risk of icing....it's just moved "downwind" from the injector in the induction tract.......
As soon as you go on to multi-point injection, you're into an injector per cylinder and a complex and expensive box of electronics...or an equally complex and expensive mechanical injection-pump.

ISTR reading a figure of ~£500 for a full Rotax carb overhaul.....It made my eyes water,anyway!...For motorcycle use, one would expect to pay less than £300 for a complete brand-new carb//// Let's see....float-needle and seat....choke-tubeand throttle-slide.....main jet and needle....Uh,, OK the return spring to push the slide back down (never seen a worn to breaking one in over 50 years! )....that's it, other than a few caskets/o-rings....Oh, go on then, add a pilot fuel or air-needle, that must be all of £3 worth :}

You *can* get a carburetted car to ice-up in the carb. but back in the seventies, a simple flap-valve was devised by the maligned BMC a bimetal strip moved the flap between a hot-air pickup around the exhaust manifold and a fresh air pickup externally....the induced air caused the strip to bend, thus automatically altering the hot-cold balance.....AFTER this, it was filtered BEFORE it went to the carb or engine....Why do Lycosaurus still feed unfiltered hot air to an engine?

I'd agree with Mr Guimbal on this one...carb is simpler, cheaper and easier to maintainand gives the best bang for the buck .

[evil7]

@ Spunk

No it should not be the "seventh" Cabri for heli Aviation.

As far as I know it was not a too big deal. It will be repaired.

A few tie-wraps, some srews and abit of paint should do the job:}.

So don´t write that helicopter off too soon:ok:

[Spunk]

@Hughes500

I totally agree.

As far as turning the key I love to tell my students that Hughes came up with the idea of a starter button back in the 50's and that my car sales person was trying to convince that starting the car by simply pushing a button was something new ;-):p

We've never had any problems with firing up one of our fuel injectors (neither on the 300 C nor on the Raven II, neither at -10°C nor at +30°C). However I see our competitors flooding their carb equipped ones every now and then, specially in winter time.

Maybe the Diesel modified and installed in several airplanes by a company called "Thielert" would have been a good alternate for the Guimbal. (I think it's a modified CDI 190 taken from the Mercedes A Class)

[Reely340]

Maybe the Diesel modified and installed in several airplanes by a company called "Thielert" would have been a good alternate for the Guimbal. (I think it's a modified CDI 190 taken from the Mercedes A Class) Well, Diamond Aircraft tried just that, and almost went bankrupt due to both quality issues and way overdue shipment of the engines, especially when Thielert went tits up.:E
As usual, when you want something done properly you have to do it yourself. So they foudned AustroEngine and their DA42NG now comes with AustroEngine's AE300 diesels.

That very engine the AE300 delivers 170 hp, EASA & FAA cert. in 2009, most probably way too late for Bruno to consider as powerplant. Personally I have no idea wheter it is light enough for helicopter applications.

[Reely340]

CS:
As soon as you go on to multi-point injection, you're into an injector per cylinder and a complex and expensive box of electronics...or an equally complex and expensive mechanical injection-pump.So I thought too, until Spunk pointed me to the description of the "Lycomming O360 FI System" (by Precision Airmotive) http://www.precisionairmotive.com/Publications/15-812_b.pdf

Very interesting reading:


single point metering controlled by diaphragms and what not
mulit injector nozzel design, one per cylinder but in intake tube

=> absolutely no chance of icing (injector is very close to intake valve?)
=> absolutely no box of electronics

Hard to beat, regarding icing resiliance and simplicity of design, I'd say.

[Bravo73]

Personally I have no idea wheter it is light enough for helicopter applications.

Lycoming 0360 is 117kg (according to Wiki).
AustroEngine AE300 is 185kg (according to their website (http://austroengine.at/uploads/pdf/mod_products1/AE300_Technical_Data_Sheet.pdf)).

A 68kg difference. Or the weight of a passenger.

[HeliHenri]

.

The Vilnius Gediminas Technical University (VGTU) in Lithuania has just received two Cabri G2.

They will be used for CPL and Lithuanian Air Force training.

http://nsa31.casimages.com/img/2014/02/21/140221091048867401.jpg (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=140221091048867401.jpg)




http://http://www.vgtu.lt/en/news/vg...icopter-pilots

.

[Peter-RB]

Hey HH

Whenever I see a picture of this helicopter I cannot but say : What a good shape and modern flow it seems to have, it seems almost ready to fly out of the picture at me.

Peter R-B
Lancashire

Dying to have a go in one! we have a spel cheaker but no Icons why!

[EDML]

I come from the world of fixed wing planes. As I almost only fly FI aircraft I do know that there are some that are really hard to start - especially when hot.

The Problem is not a cold start but hot starts after 10-15min. Especially when it is hot and in a congested engine bay you will have Problems with vapour bubbles that makes starting the engine very difficult.

Some fuel injected engines start very easily (the big Lycoming TIO540 in the Mooney TLS for example), others are hard to start - especially the IO360 used in the new C172S models is a beast when it comes to starting it hot.

When I started flying the G2 I did not like the idea of the carburated engine, however the automatic carburator heat works perfectly and is dependable in all weather conditions.


Marcus

[HeliHenri]

.
Dying to have a go in one!

Hello Peter R-B,

It's just a matter of time ! :)

.

[stingerdinger]

And another one for the UK...

Helicentre Aviation Places Order for Fifth Cabri G2 | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source (http://helihub.com/2014/02/22/helicentre-aviation-places-order-for-fifth-cabri-g2/)

[HeliHenri]

.


Not a lot of news from the HAI in the forum so I have to do something ! ;)


"Yesterday was a banner day for French helicopter manufacturer Guimbal as it marked its entry to the U.S. helicopter market, with the delivery of its first Cabri G2 light single (http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/aviation-international-news/2008-02-08/french-r22-competitor-gets-easa-nod) to Newberg, Ore.-based operator and training provider Precision Helicopters."

"Precision expects delivery of another G2 in June, with more to follow next year."


"Here at the show, Guimbal notched its second U.S. customer, Heritage Helicopter Services, which expects its first delivery in March 2015. According to chief pilot Curtis Spears, the Beaumont, Texas-based company will order up to six G2s, eventually changing over its fleet entirely to the French helicopter."

"Guimbal told AIN that his company has delivered 64 approximately $400,000 G2s to 32 operators worldwide and currently has a backlog of more than 100 rotorcraft. As the orders increase, he is striving to reduce order lead time to less than a year."




http://nsa20.casimages.com/img/2014/02/27/140227093308934879.jpg (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=140227093308934879.jpg)



.

Guimbal Makes U.S., Heli-Expo Debut | Aviation International News (http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/hai-convention-news/2014-02-26/guimbal-makes-us-heli-expo-debut)
.

[HeliHenri]

.

first customer in South Africa :

Starlite’s International Aviation Training Academy was one of the launch customers who were welcomed by the Guimbal family, having purchased two of their latest Cabri G2 helicopters, with another six on order.

Starlite and Guimbal, more deals on the cards | Vertical Magazine - The Pulse of the Helicopter Industry (http://www.verticalmag.com/news/article/StarliteandGuimbalmoredealsonthecards)

.

[nocarsgo]

Vertical Magazine Shot (https://www.facebook.com/verticalmag/photos/a.10152223992101661.1073741872.51515866660/10152223992936661/?type=1&theater)

https://scontent-a-sjc.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1/1743604_10152223992936661_2021343791_n.jpg

People were super excited that this is finally coming to the US to mix up the training industry. It got some serious attention. A lot of people were saying this was their favorite booth at Heli-Expo.

Precisions Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Precision-Flight-Training/229699817089197

www.flyprecision.com (http://www.flyprecision.com)

[HeliHenri]

.

Bruno is holding talks in the US with several (very) large flight academies linked with O&G operators.

Maybe some more good news soon :ok:

.

[HeliHenri]

.


Aerial works with the G2 by Frontier Helicopters ( NZ ) :



watch?v=fbIMRnuhEqc


.

[John R81]

Saturday 8th March I saw G-ETWO in place at EBG Helicopters, Redhill. Flown back from the factory in 6 hrs with 1 fuel stop and landed with an hour's fuel remaining; 6000ft over the alps, 2-up with light luggage. Very impressive.

I understand CAA paperwork is expected to be completed this week, and 2x instructors are type-rated.

[helihub]

There was a Luxemburg registered Cabri flying around in the UK on Sunday. Seemed to be a bit off-patch :ok:

[HeliHenri]

.

There was a Luxemburg registered Cabri flying around in the UK on Sunday. Seemed to be a bit off-patch :ok:

Hello Jeremy,
That's a good news :) because when it was French registered with a commercial operator, it was sleeping in a hangar most of the times :(

.

[HeliHenri]

.


Poland has purchased three additional Guimbal Cabri G2 light training helicopters for the Polish Air Force Academy at Deblin (they have two G2 at the present time).

Poland orders three more Cabri G2 helicopters - IHS Jane's 360 (http://www.janes.com/article/35205/poland-orders-three-more-cabri-g2-helicopters)
.

[Helicentre Aviation]

We've just flown a record 100 hours in the last 14 days in two Cabri G2s! Really loving the product Bruno! :ok: Nice one.

Can't wait to start working our next three machines!

[chalmondleigh]

Hi HeliHenri,

Two crews flew D-HJOY in the BOHC;

Tony & Werner Irbeler won the Junior Class and were 14th overall

Christine Winkler & Saskia Freund were placed 3rd in the Ladies Class.

[chalmondleigh]

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o279/chalmondleigh/G-TRDSatLeTouquetDSC00417_zps2913904c.jpg (http://s122.photobucket.com/user/chalmondleigh/media/G-TRDSatLeTouquetDSC00417_zps2913904c.jpg.html)

at Le Touquet

[Helififtysix]

Nice Picture of EBG's G2 in flight, now ready for training in the south east and London


http://i61.tinypic.com/2iifyoz.jpg

[John R81]

Ken looks happy :):):)


I think that there might be opportunities to have a go on this on Sunday 13th

[Spunk]

I like the callsign: G2

[Helicentre Aviation]

G-VETT lands at Leicester - weather was great flying back from the factory!

http://www.flyheli.co.uk/images/misc/G-VETT.jpg

[HeliHenri]

.
:ok:

Hello,

That's number 3, isn't it ?

How was the flight ?

.

[Helicentre Aviation]

Yes Henri, it's Cabri number 3. Number 4 should be with us by August!!

[HeliHenri]

.

UK Cabri G2 fleet will be 15 by june 2015 :

"Cabri sales are shooting ahead. With six currently in country, they are now holding orders for another nine. The latest one of these is scheduled for delivery in June 2015."

"At present there are three training schools offering the Cabri - Cotswold Helicopter Centre at Kemble, Helicentre at Leicester and EBG Helicopters at Redhill. A fourth school will be added to this list in the next two to three weeks."

UK Cabri fleet will be 15 by June 2015 | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source (http://helihub.com/2014/04/22/uk-cabri-fleet-will-be-15-by-june-2015/)

.

[HeliHenri]

.

Bruno has sold 8 Cabri G2 during Aero 2014 at Friendrichshafen , 2 will go to the Czech dealer Lion Helicopters (2 G2 already flying in the country) and 6 will go to the Chinese dealer Xi-Square Aviation (2 already in order).

.

[HeliHenri]

.


The two first G2 for the Starlite Aviation International Helicopter Training Academy ( South Africa) at Aix Les Milles (home of Helicoptères Guimbal ).


Starlite has six more G2 on order.


http://nsa34.casimages.com/img/2014/05/21/140521103732201513.jpg (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=140521103732201513.jpg)




And a short video produced by Starlite Chief Flight Instructor, Stefan Fouche :


Starlite Aviation presents Guimbal Cabri G2 - YouTube



.

[HeliHenri]

.

Elite Helicopters is now the fourth training school flying with the Cabri G2 in UK , from HeliHub : Fourth UK training school adds Cabri to fleet | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source (http://helihub.com/2014/06/01/fourth-uk-training-school-adds-cabri-to-fleet/)

G-UMBL will be on display at the Heli UK Expo and there will be a total of five G2 displayed at the exhibition.
.

[HeliHenri]

.


The Cabri G2 is now certified in China.

first deliveries will follow in few weeks.

10 G2 on orders so far.


Edit : SN 1069 waiting to be shipped :


http://nsa33.casimages.com/img/2014/06/25/140625044116731175.jpg (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=140625044116731175.jpg)


.

[nocarsgo]

Delays from the FAA, but standard approval coming just around the corner!


http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y517/holdfasthope_1/83ef703e-315b-4a52-920f-72d7aab872cc_zpsb8a86619.jpg

http://i1278.photobucket.com/albums/y517/holdfasthope_1/40290ba2-b82c-4335-9c46-ae95607b353b_zpsfbaa8a60.jpg

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Precision-Aviation-Training/229699817089197

[flyinkiwi]

Probably not the best photo but the only one I could find of the 7 Cabri G2's (in the background sadly) displaying at Warbirds over Wanaka 2014 along with an assortment of other helicopters.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1.0-9/p200x200/1538806_646346388771435_4519407163634761750_n.jpg

[Helicentre Aviation]

Managed to catch all three on the ground at the same time for a photo opportunity! Looking forward to welcoming number four to the family in a couple of months (followed by five, six and seven early next year!). We have just last week placed an order for another three which will make ten on the fleet by early 2016.

http://www.flyheli.co.uk/images/misc/Helicentre-Three-Cabris.jpg

[cockney steve]

which will also make the UK distributor the largest Guimbal distributor globally. That is, until the USA market gets under way :) Compared to the Robbo, (the only other entry-level competition), It's chalk and cheese.

There was a lot of initial controversy about Guimbal's warranty (or lack thereof) which has not impeded sales.
The machinelooks right.

I, an I'm sure many potential operators, would be interested to hear of any wear, failure, maintenance or high expense issues....(OK, "high expense" is relative to the already steep cost of running an egg-whisk:} )

It seems remarkable that Bruno has designed and bought to market, such a successful machine.
Robinson broke new ground by offering a "proper" machine at a fraction of the price of others...but it comes with many compromises.

the only other alternative was the Rotorway, which, although affordable, was "experimental" an amateur -build and spent moretime being fettled than flown. AIUI, the Rotorway is slowly developing and moving towards mainstream Certification......
The Guimbal Cabri started from scratch, was certified and went into production....So far, we've not heard of ANY issues of consequence.
A truly remarkable engineering achievement.

My hat is off to you, Mr Guimbal, :ok: :D



Note, I have absolutely no connection with Professional Aviation or any manufacturer,I don't hold a Pilot's licence. My views are those of an interested observer of Rotary-wing Aviation.

[HeliHenri]

.


Heli logging with the G2 (Frontier Helicopters NZ) :




http://nsa33.casimages.com/img/2014/07/18/14071803064452519.jpg (http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=14071803064452519.jpg)



.

[Foureyedflyer]

Helicentre Aviation Academy have become a centre of excellence for the Cabri G2

Says who? How have they become a 'centre of excellence'? Have they just decided that? More than likely.

I understand it's a good machine for training and take nothing away from the type but haven't the Germans got loads of the things, all owned in their own colours?

[PedroDaSilva]

Our Guimbal Cabri G2 in HTA Helicopters (Algarve - Portugal) is doing very well even in our summer temperatures.

Here's a picture:

https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t31.0-8/q71/s720x720/10505120_1446882515590609_5377256673673287636_o.jpg

[HeliHenri]

.

If you prefer small operators (that's your choice) flying in versatile environment, there a some operators in Switzerland, France, Sweden or Czech Republic who know very well the G2 for few years now.

.

[nocarsgo]

Anyone recognize this pilot hanging out at AirVenture this week?





https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10502182_732187103507130_2103363657051453351_n.jpg?oh=a1c85f f15b6a06818c4355cee9b0e9e0&oe=544F942C&__gda__=1413098644_d362cdbb33ae09e4650bba4e6c97c99a


This is and other pictures from the first couple days of AirVenture 2014:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.731896270202880.1073741840.229699817089197&type=1

[HeliHenri]

.

Hello nocarsgo,

Chuck wants to swap his 105 for a G2 ! ;)

.

[Efirmovich]

Its Eric Clapton isn't it ?


E.

[nigelh]

the guy in the left seat is not going to be happy with that .......Eric is probably 70 and he is probably 40 !!!!!!
And yes it is Chuck .

[HeliHenri]

.

Polish Air Force has received three additional G2 last month (sn 1074/1075 and 1076) bringing the total number in use to five.

.

[HeliHenri]

.

Interesting interview of Bruno about the Chinese certification of the Cabri :

Aviation Today :: Guimbal Reveals Details About Chinese Certification Process?? (http://www.aviationtoday.com/categories/rotocraft/Guimbal-Reveals-Details-About-Chinese-Certification-Process_82683.html)

(...) "“The first main step in the process was the validation of the STC we have for the engine,” Guimbal told Rotor & Wing, as the manufacturer designed an electronic ignition for the Lycoming O360. Then came the validation of the type certificate itself. The third step was an operational evaluation. This means training programs were assessed, both for pilots and maintenance technicians. Finally, the first two aircraft destined to China received individual airworthiness certificates." (...)

(...) "A CAAC certification obviously opens doors nationally but other possibilities exist, Guimbal discovered. Local permits to fly can be delivered in China’s provinces. “The country is not so centralized,” Guimbal said." (...)

(...) "Guimbal expressed pride about having gone through the certification process independently, without having formed a local joint venture for production. Asked about intellectual property threats, such as reverse-engineering, he did not appear worried despite the cultural gap between Western countries and China. He emphasized that drawing the plans of a part is one thing but manufacturing it is another." (...)

(...) "The CAAC did not require any specific test. “We showed them exhaustive certification test results,” Guimbal said. He noted China’s Avgas 100LL fuel standard is slightly different from that defined by ASTM. Using such a fuel is not officially validated for the Cabri yet – in fact, it is still unsure whether Helicopteres Guimbal or the CAAC is responsible for the validation. Guimbal made it clear that, as the engine can burn unleaded fuel, the Chinese standard is not a problem. “Standards should be harmonized eventually,” he added." (...)

(...)"Despite slow implementation of the promised low airspace deregulation, Guimbal believes in China’s potential. “A Chinese official told me that the government’s plan is to have three helicopters per district... and they have 2,650 districts,” he said, reckoning that this translates into well over 20,000 pilots needing to be trained. (...)
.

[Reely340]

This document talks about a placard (regarding gauge inacurracies) to be installed when fuel type used for gauge calibration and fuel type actually in tank differ:
Proposed Temporary Deviation on fuel gauging system of Hélicoptères Guimbal Cabri G2 when using automotive unleaded gasoline | EASA (http://www.easa.europa.eu/documents/public-consultations/proposed-temporary-deviation-fuel-gauging-system-h%C3%A9licopt%C3%A8res-guimbal)

I wasn't aware that the cabri G2 engine runs on
- AVGAS 100LL or
- AVGAS UL91 or
- Automotive unleaded(!) gasoline according to EN228, albeit w/ RON >= 98

Is the Cabri G2 alerady approved by EASA to used Automotive unleaded (RON>= 98)?

Would be great to get away with 1.40€/l instead of 2.40€/l :E
That fact the HG applies for being allowed to counter the gauge inaccuracy from mixed fuel type usage by palacarding, insinuates certification. Their website still speaks of AVGAS 100L only.


edit:
apparently one doesn't need an STC when Lycoming themselves give a go:
"With the Lycoming engine model approvals, the EASA SIB immediately allows ASTM D 7547
Grade UL 91 use on European Union based aircraft such as the
Cessna 152....Diamond DA40 and DA42-L360; Helicoptères Guimbal’s Cabri G2;..."
EASA approves 31 more Lycoming engines for UL91 fuel | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source (http://helihub.com/2013/04/24/easa-approves-31-more-lycoming-engines-for-ul91-fuel/)

[HeliHenri]

.
The Cabri is the first helicopter certified to use unleaded gasoline.

This certification required a long and sophisticated series of flight and ground tests.

But the result is certification for two types of unleaded fuels :

- The new Avgas UL91

-Unleaded 98 octane premium automotive gasoline.

The performance of the helicopter remains unaffected and there are no pratical limitations.

All fuels could be mixed in any ratio and the engine warranty is unaffected.
.

[Reely340]

But the result is certification for two types of unleaded fuels :
- The new Avgas UL91
- Unleaded 98 octane premium automotive gasoline.The latter is real, common premium "pump gas", right? :ok:

The very type of fuel Lycoming claims is not precisely enough "controlled",
subject to too many seasonal/regional/legal variations.
http://www.lycoming.com/Portals/0/OurInnovation_Fuels_UnleadedFuels_Part_2.pdf

They heavily advocate someone ought develop UL100, so their "whole fleet" of workhorses can migrate from 100LL
Lycoming > OUR INNOVATION > Fuels (http://www.lycoming.com/Lycoming/OURINNOVATION/Fuels.aspx)

That means one can actually get 98 RON pump gas (w/o any Ethanol,
Lycoming says) into some canisters, pour them into the tank and
fly away safely and airworthy in a Cabri G2!

THAT is a key selling point for GA pilots, for sure!
(And FTOs should love it, as they save on mineral oil tax, too, here in .at)

Maybe my eyesight starts to lack, but I find that very important property
is not at all reflected in the Cabri G2 homepage, which still speaks of 100LL
only. Time to catch up, dear content managers.

edit: on second thougth nobody seems to be aware of that, all name just 100LL:
Die Technische Daten der Guimbal Cabri G2*- Heli Aviation GmbH (http://www.heli-aviation.de/technology/guimbal-cabri-g2/technische-daten/)
Technical Specifications | Cabri G2 now available through Pacific Aircraft Sales, New Zealand?s exclusive distributor. (http://www.cabri.co.nz/technical-specifications/)
Hélicoptères Guimbal (http://guimbal.com/index2.php?l=6#p=31)

[HeliHenri]

.
on second thougth nobody seems to be aware of that, all name just 100LL:

You're just confusing real life with websites.

.

[Spunk]

Saving a few Cents per Liter won't save you enough to pay for a new engine, an expansive experience the guy next door just made. Especially in Europe with all that biological stuff in the auto gas it's not a good idea to fly in to your local gas station.

[Reely340]

Saving a few Cents per Liter won't save you enough to pay for a new engine, an expansive experience the guy next door just made

Well, in the case ob the Cabri G2 it would mean 172€ less per tank filling!

But apparently (Lycoming is right) it is very difficult to find out how much Ethanol is being added to pump gas of 95RON or 98RON today..

[500e]

So if the engine decides to throw bits out & you are using EU pump fuel who PAYS

[HeliCentre academy]

As we would like to share with you this great combo at HeliCentre Flight Academy.

http://s9.postimg.org/898mz44i7/IMG_3401.jpg

[HeliHenri]

.

Hello HCA,

So the chief pilot and the FI are allowed to park their cars in the hangar when they're on duty ?! ;)

.

[HeliCentre academy]

Yes exactly HeliHenri, just a normal day ;)

[Reely340]

So if the engine decides to throw bits out & you are using EU pump fuel who PAYS Good question indeed.

But assuming
- me being a non commercial opeartor and
- purchasing the engine from some european (Lycoming) dealer and
- saving any fuel bill of EASA and Lycoming specified, enthanol-free, +93AKI autofuel I used

the "fault leading to engine disintegration must have been there ab initio"
hence consumer warranty ought kick in during the first 24 months since overhaul.

I'm well aware that w/o logging HUMS or gapless VEMD protocol I might have a hard time addressing potential accusation of rough abuse. But maybe Lycoming, in denying warranty, would have to prove beyond doubt that I was at fault.

But I fear you guys are right, in reality it's always us who pay:
FTO chief send back a young HIO-360-D1A that never ran fine since last factory overhaul, didn't stop to gulp oil and never started to produce the same power as the sister machine. He mentioned overseas lawyers, I yet have to ask him how he settled with Lycomming, cost wise.

[Yankee hotel zulu]

Hi all,
When introducing the Mogas certification during the Aero show in April, 2013, this is what Guimbal published in their Newsletter 7 (downloadable from their website):
____________________________________________
We kept our promise. The Cabri is the first and only helicopter certified to use unleaded gasoline !
This will help you to protect the environment and prepare for the end of availability of leaded fuels. With significant fuel bill savings.
This certification required a long and sophisticated series of flight and ground tests, but the result is certification for TWO types of unleaded fuels :
• The new Avgas UL91
• Unleaded 98 octane premium automotive gasoline

The performance of the helicopter remains unaffected and there
are no practical limitations. All fuels could be mixed in any ratio.
And the engine warranty is unaffected !

Note : the use of automotive gasoline makes the pilot responsible for the selection of adequate fuels - absence of alcohol, adequate octane, adequate storage.
Refer to Service Letter 13-001 and Service Bulletin 13-005 for detailed conditions
_________________________________________
They told us that Lycoming did agree for the warranty
Premium auto fuels in Europe like Shell V-power and Total Excellium comply with every requirement including zero alcohol.

[RVDT]

And all of the above may be correct -

with the addition that as it is an aviation product or consumable you must still adhere to all the conditions of supply traceability and storage standards for same.

Wandering down to the local petrol station forecourt with a container is not the way it is done!

[Reely340]

Wandering down to the local petrol station forecourt with a container is not the way it is done!
Fair claim, but lacking explanation how it ought to be done when I want to use "Unleaded 98 octane premium automotive gasoline"

I'm all ears. :E

[puntosaurus]

I wouldn't rule out nipping down to the local garage.

Remember that thread on the use of heating oil versus Jet A1 ? One poster had sent both off for analysis and concluded that the heating oil was a better match to the spec of jet A1 than the fuel supplied as Jet A1 from the airfield. This was mainly in respect of the water content, where the higher turnover in the heating oil depot vs. the airfield meant that the supply at the heating oil depot was closer to the original spec.

[HeliHenri]

.

UK news from HeliHub : http://helihub.com/2014/10/17/cotswold-helicopter-centre-supply-uks-eighth-cabri/



"Another Guimbal Cabri G2 helicopter has been added to the ‘G’ register this week to bring the UK’s total to eight. The acceptance flight of Serial Number 1079 was conducted by Andy Moorhouse of Cotswold Helicopter Centre, the exclusive UK distributor for French manufacturer Helicoptères Guimbal."
"There are currently eleven further Cabri G2 helicopters on order with Guimbal factory for customers in the UK"


So that means that there will be around 20 G2 in UK at the end of next year ! :ok:


.

[Spunk]

Cabri G2 emergency landing (http://www.bild.de/regional/frankfurt/hubschrauber/muss-notlanden-38208822.bild.html)

Shortly after take-off pilot and passender heard a loud "bang" from the engine compartment followed by a power loss.
The autorotation was completed to the ground successfully, both walked away.
However the tailboom looks a little bit shorter than normal.

Considering that it was already dark, well done:ok:

[Bravo73]

However the tailboom looks a little bit shorter than normal.


Is this the new, top secret NOTAR version?

http://bilder.bild.de/fotos-skaliert/bruchlandung_41493639_mbqf-1413699655-38208842/2,w=650,c=0.bild.jpg

:}

[timprice]

Nobody hurt thats the main thing:ok:
Good job.:D

[cockney steve]

Now I know why they call them Rotor BLADES What a good clean cut!:}

[Reely340]

Interesting to see how far you can bend them and whack them through the tailboom, w/o breaking them.

Probably just some tracking necessary and off he goes again.:E

[Herbert BRUDER]

Hi,
Bruno will soon surprise us with a ... TURBINE version.
Check French aviation mags. Regards, Herbert

[Reely340]

Got any links?

[mdovey]

Is this the fabled 4-seater or just a turbine version of the G2?

And is this confirmed or just rumour? (and why am I even asking that on a forum called "... rumour network"?)

Matthew

[HeliHenri]

.


This is the thread of the G2, not the G4.


And by the way, a surprise is something (by definition) unexpected ...


.

[mdovey]

This is the threat of the G2, not the G4.

Did you mean "threat" or "thread"? Is there even a G4 thread?

And by the way, a surprise is something (by definition) unexpected ...

Oh, so this will be the Gn (n>4) then :)

Matthew

[HeliHenri]

.
Did you mean "threat" or "thread"? Is there even a G4 thread?


Sorry about that, I mean thread (a single letter can change all the meaning !).


There is no G4 thread at the present time, Herbert BRUDER can start it with his surprise.

.

[r88]

Based on the title: "Cabri the Franch alternative to R22" I would guess the helicopter to come is a G2 turbine ?

That would certainly be a surprise, hopefully a good one.

[chalmondleigh]

... already exists

Combined turbine and generator unit - Claude, Guimbal Jean (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/2634375.html)

tee, hee!

[HeliHenri]

.

The G2 should arrive in Brazil soon, a distributor has been appointed this week : AEROTRON

.

[Matteymoo2]

I am doing my fixed wing training with Multiflight at Leeds Bradford Airport in the UK and they are supposed to be getting a G2 in Late January/early February, I think the instructor was saying prices would be around £350 per hour but don't quote me on that as I didn't hear it clearly.

I am interested in possibly doing my PPL(H) and I have heard that these helis are supposed to be good, What are your views of fixed wing guys moving onto one of them I don't think the price is all that bad.

[GS-Alpha]

Is that £350 inclusive of VAT? I hire a 22 for £210 an hour inclusive. Seems jolly expensive to me. I had a very preliminary look into buying a G2 as a private owner. Financially, the R22 wins hands down, despite the claims of cheap engineering costs. You can own an R22 for 24 years and still not pay the purchase cost of a G2. I'd love a G2, but at their current cost I'd rather have an R44.

[cockney steve]

Seems jolly expensive to me. I had a very preliminary look into buying a G2 as a private owner. Financially, the R22 wins hands down, despite the claims of cheap engineering costs. You can own an R22 for 24 years and still not pay the purchase cost of a G2.

You can buy a Dacia (Roumanian) a lot cheaper than a Skoda(former Czechoslovakia) They both have 4 wheels, seats and doors....there the similarity ends.
The Robinson product appears to be a fantastic way to fly Rotary, for those who really can't /won't afford it with a conventional, more robust machine...Me, if I were at that end of the market, I'd be happier in an Autogiro,with a 2-blade teetering head.. The Robinson is/was a far superior machine to the Rotorway-which, again, made the unaffordable accessible.
The Guimbal has had a very successful introduction to the market-place. I, like a lot of others, was very sceptical, especially given the attitude to guarantee.
Those fears appear to be unfounded. The machine is robust, well engineered, has a "grown up" 3-blade main Rotor, and owners are not continually getting fearsome bills for delaminated blades, bladder-tanks, severe corrosion in tailboom joints etc.


Did you really study the total Cost of Ownership, or was the Robbo salesmanthat good? :}

[500e]

"You can own an R22 for 24 years and still not pay the purchase cost of a G2."
Really ??

[chalmondleigh]

Spot on there 500e. There is no way that you can own a R22 for 24 years and still come out ahead of the Cabri.

Approx list price for a new Cabri is around €300,000 and for a similarly equipped R22 $288,000 both ex-works. Converted to GBP at the commercial rate rate shown on BBC website a few minutes ago ( £1=$1.6USD & €1=78p) the purchase price will be £234,000 for the Cabri and £180,000 for the R22.

Where GS-A's argument really falls down is in the total cost of ownership. Expect an R22 overhaul to cost £85,000 for the first overhaul and £100,000 for the second overhaul. A Cabri on the other hand will cost around £35,000 to overhaul at 2,200 hrs. Both sets of overhaul costs here are real world figures confirmed today.

All Robinson products have a finite calendar life. Go away on holiday for two weeks and your R44 will be worth less just sitting in the hangar.

The only calendar lifed item on the Cabri is the fuel bladder at 15 years, approx £6,500 to replace.

Although superficially the R44 Raven I looks a similar price to the Cabri you can expect to pay £131,000 for an overhaul, plus you will be burning 53 litres an hour, as opposed to 38 in the Cabri.

There is no escaping the fact that Cabri costs more to buy than a new R22 but the running costs are lower. The Cabri is more robust, does not suffer from corrosion, is much safer and a joy to fly.

[aa777888]

If you look at just the capital cost of a G2 vs.that of an R22 plus an R22 12 year overhaul it's going to be close. Plus the cost of the overhaul is not tied up in a loan for the first 12 years.

[GS-Alpha]

I made the difference in initial purchase price to be in the region of £100k, which is greater than the cost of one full 12 year overhaul. That was my point. Yes it is probable the R22 would be worth less than the G2 at the end of the second 12 year period (before overhaul), but then who knows what the value of a 24 year old G2 will actually be?

At current prices, I'd rather buy an R44 than a G2. However, if the G2 was closer to the price of an R22 the decision to go for a G2 despite unknown future second hand value would be far easier, and lessons would not need to cost £350. That was the point I was making. My choice as a private helicopter flyer would be train on an R22 and buy an R44 rather than train on and buy a G2.

To add balance to the argument, I have not actually flown a G2 (although I know highly experienced pilots who have). However, I did in my initial post state I was arguing purely from a financial perspective.

[Freewheel]

If that's the criteria you're going to be using, go for it, but you'll get what you pay for.

[HeliHenri]

.


GS-Alpha
My choice as a private helicopter flyer would be train on an R22 and buy an R44 rather than train on and buy a G2


Hello GS-A,

You're choise seems to be a good one.

However and as you're in the UK, just have a look at this comment (from a HeliHub news) made by a private UK operator who knows very well R22 and R44, there are few facts very interesting (and at the time the exchange rate was not as good as now !) :

"The private purchaser is an experienced helicopter owner, having had two Robinson R22s and three R44s in the last 24 years. He told HeliHub.com that his move away from the successful California-built helicopters was driven both by Guimbal’s modern construction methods, and also the freedom of being away from the mandatory 12 year Robinson overhauls."
"The Cabri’s composite construction means that there is no corrosion, something he has been very familiar with on his five Robinsons. He is also looking forward to operating on premium mogas, providing a saving of £18 ($27) per hour."
"The purchaser told HeliHub.com that he does not get close to the 183 hours a year needed to reach the 2,200 hours in 12 years – the point where a Robinson helicopter needs to spend some months away on a costly complete strip-down overhaul. The Lycoming engine (same as the R22) is the only lifed item in the French-built craft. The Cabri gearbox overhaul is currently scheduled at 3,000 hours (against the Robinson’s 2,200) and Guimbal are working with EASA to stretch that out to 4,000 hours. It is clear that he has done his sums and they are all stacked in favour of the Cabri."


Third Cabri sold into UK market | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source (http://helihub.com/2013/02/22/third-cabri-sold-into-uk-market/)



.

[Matteymoo2]

I spoke to the helicopter instructor at Multiflight and he said that the G2 is going to be £360 for an hour Dual with the instructor

[cockney steve]

@ GS Alpha......your financial planning sounds like that of the average Corporate bean-counter who only looks to make a favourable impression and cream off the bonuses, whilst he's in the job....then jump ship before the excreta hits the fan.

If you are that constrained, short term, you really can't afford Rotary.
An aquaintance used to fly an Enstrom....traded" up" to an R44 which bit him big-style.....I believe, some years later,he still walks with a limp and flies an Enstrom again.
Everything I have seen and read about the Robinson product, points to a product built down to a minimum. It succeds and as a result has opened-up an entirely new market....Wannabe's who could never have afforded a heli otherwise, and (probably an unexpected bonus to RHC)-flight-schools who could massively reduce their operating costs whilst offering modern machines.
As pointed out, the downsides to Robinson ownership are the known Lifed components, the known timed components and the unknown failures (rotor-blades?) and very expensive AD's.

AFAIK, there have not been any such calls on the wallet for Guimbal owners.
Everything I have read, suggests a well-engineered product designed for a long and reliable working life.
As such, it's residual will always be higher than a Robinson....
(Something that flight-schools seem to be latching on to! ) Calculate the calendar-life or the hours flown....If you're buying a 10 year old Machine, your Robbo is a hangar-queen in 2 years time...OK she's still worth "core" value for rebuilding........meanwhile, the Cabri owner is still flying AND has all those GPH fuel savings in the bank as well.

Ever heard the expression "penny-wise, pound foolish."?
Given the low interest-rates at the moment, It would make excellent economic sense to borrow the extra to buy a Cabri and start saving from the first turn of the key.

I haven't even started on it's inherently safer, more robust, more forgiving design, yet.

No vested interest here, just an enthusiastic observer who made my little bit of cash the hard way and make every penny count.
Oh, I've never flown in either and I'm highly unlikely to trust my life to a Robinson Aviator whom I don't know to be a true "sky-God"... In other words, "Thanks, but no thanks"...yea, I'm a risk-averse wuss and don't want a violent premature demise even at my age.:hmm: :}

[zerosum]

GS -Alpha

Please enlighten us all as to how you came up with the Cabri costing £100k more than an R22.

I couldn't make it anywhere near that.

Chalmondleigh's figures look right to me.

Please be aware that the illustration he gave specified "ex works" prices. So that's ex works near Marseilles for the Cabri and spend a few hours flying it the 500 nm back to, say, Lydd or ex works California for the R22. Looking at Chalmondleighs figure for the R22 it must have included the disassembly and crating up for air freight as per R22 price list on Robinson's website today.

Hiring a R22 for £210 inclusive of fuel and VAT sounds a very good deal but does that include an Instructor which is what Matteymoo2 was enquiring about?

[Peter-RB]

Hey Cockney Steve,

My last flight ever in an R22 occurred in 2002, up to that time I enjoyed flying the R22, but unknown to me the R22 previous pilot a young FI had allowed a massif over-speed during an auto, it only became apparent upon getting airborne and climbing out of EGNH , I had no ability to turn left, it would only go right in notchy degree's, at that time I weighed about 220 lbs it took all my strength to stop the thing flinging itself all over the ground I landed on just east of the tower, I have never flown in a Robinson Helicopter since.
But I would like to fly in the French Cabri it seems to have nothing but good reports, and seems by all accounts to be built well and as you stated it seems to have long term abilities.

Peter R-B
Lancashire

[Spunk]

I think that the Cabri receives a lot of votes of confidence (can you say that in English) but still has to prove that it really is as reliable and as cost effective (in the long run ) as it is said to be.
For the Cabri G2 Mk. II I'm asking Bruno for a more sophisticated engine then that antiquated and carburated Lycoming, a throttle you can actually hold on to with your entire hand, a less aggressive governor and maybe a little bit more of ergonomic design for people being taller than 6 ft. (I'm having problems to hold that stick the way I'm used to).

Untill then I'm trying to find spare parts for my beloved Hughes269 but thats another thread I guess.

[GS-Alpha]

For those questioning where I get £100k from, the approximate cost of a brand new R22, inclusive of VAT is 215k. The approximate cost of a new G2 is £315k by today's exchange rates. The cost of a newly overhauled R22 is obviously cheaper still.

Exceed the limitations in any aircraft and you will encounter problems. That's why they have limitations. I completely agree that the R22 must be respected a little more the most in order to remain within it's operating limitations. I also totally accept the point about unknown additional costs that can crop up, and indeed historically do crop up with Robinson products. But no one ca guarantee the same won't become true of the G2 with time, nor indeed that all of these problems are not already ironed out in the R22.

I hire an R22 for £275 with an instructor, or £210 SFH (inclusive of VAT). If a G2 costs £360 with an instructor, why is that? Presumably it is to cover the increased cost? Or are G2 schools just fleecing their customers?

HeliHenri, I read your link with interest. The G2 is still a relatively new helicopter and time will tell whether it will need some expensive mandatory alterations or not. If it is still going strong when I decide I need to buy a helicopter in a few years, I'll certainly give it some serious thought.

With the current price differential, I think it is better to go with the devil you know than the devil you don't, but anyone is entitled to disagree with me.

[Freewheel]

The Cabri was certified in 2007, the R22 in 1979.

The Cabri has been in use for the 7 years since, without any great concerns. By the time the R22 had been in use for 7 years, there had been numerous fatalities and the FAA had seriously considered pulling the type certificate.

There had been revised MR blades, now up to revision 6(?) a specific training course which remains a requirement today in the US in certain circumstances.

The Cabri has had some revisions. Balance weights to reduce vibration and increase comfort. Trim tabs on the blades to improve comfort. Adjustable pedals to improve comfort.

Quite different.

If you enjoy driving a Mk 1 Escort on a daily basis, please do, but if you choose one over a new Fiesta because you can pick one up for a lower price, don't pretend you've made the best purchase in any more than a very narrow perspective.

[Pittsextra]

I think there is an element of rose tints here.....

The G2 is a wonderful machine and much more forgiving to the average PPL. Reliability wise it needs to be kept in a hangar otherwise it suffers electrical gremlins as befell the initial machine at Leicester, and even when in a hangar once it has a few hours under its belt you'll likely fly with something showing as failed - EGT sensor, etc. The DI is utter junk and is £360 p/h with instructor and VAT common now a few more machines are out there?

[Vertical Freedom]

Ever heard the expression "penny-wise, pound foolish."?
I haven't even started on it's inherently safer, more robust, more forgiving design, yet.
cockney steve


Hey cockney steve

no truer words spoken......especially on the Crapinson Flimsicopter :mad: in fact it's not cheaper, you just get less quality, less engineering, less sturdy, less strength, less crashworthy, less Safety & less & less & less & less :ugh: their called a Widow Maker for good reason :{

Happy Happy Langings :ok:

[peter principle]

hi there GSA,

Please can you share the name the company which you hire your R22 from.

My work takes me around most of the UK and I can usually manage to fit in half a days flying, weather permitting.

PP

[cockney steve]

n fact it's not cheaper, you just get less quality, less engineering, less sturdy, less strength, less crashworthy, less Safety & less & less & less & less

@ VF...... I take issue with you on the above comment. It is cheaper initially
I think what you really mean, is you get a lot poorer value for your money, which is what I've been saying all along.
The Lada was a crude, cheap, scabby car, but you could buy a brand new one for the price of a secondhand Ford Escrt....the Ford was still the better value for money, a nicer, safer, better-handling, more economical ride.....Notice any similarities?:8
You can roll a turd in glitter, it's still a shiny turd and you'll still struggle to find the clean end.:}

[Pittsextra]

From the AAIB annual report of yesterday:-

Robinson R22 Beta Ely, Cambridgeshire 6 January 2012 Accident

AAIB Bulletin: 2/2013

FACTOR: N/A

Synopsis

The Robinson R22 helicopter was flying from Manston to Fenland. Near Ely, witnesses on the

ground saw it pitch and roll rapidly, the two main rotor blades separated from the rotor head and the

aircraft fell to the ground. The pilot was fatally injured.

SAFETY RECOMMENDATION – 2012-039

The Federal Aviation Administration should amend the requirements in Federal Aviation Regulation

Part 27 to reduce the risk of ‘loss of main rotor control’ accidents in future light helicopter designs.


Response

The FAA responds: We appreciate the analysis the AAIB performed and also for bringing this issue


to our attention. The report, AAIB Bulletin: 2/2013, was very thorough and clearly makes the case


that low inertia rotor systems provide significant challenges to low-time rotorcraft pilots.


Unfortunately, this is a matter of physics that our certification regulations cannot adequately address.


While we agree with the AAIB that helicopters with low inertia rotor systems have unique control and


handling challenges, we do not believe that the certification rules of FAR Part 27 are the best means


of addressing these challenges. Because these challenges are primarily operational in nature, we


continue to believe that pilot training and awareness of the physics of low inertia rotor systems are


the best means to ensure safe operation of this type of rotorcraft.


The Robinson Model R22 and R44 helicopters are the two most prolific examples of rotorcraft with


low inertia rotor systems. FAA Special Federal Aviation Regulation (SFAR) No. 73- Robinson


R22/R44 Special Training and Experience Requirements was written in response to the unique


challenges of these specific rotorcraft. We still consider SFAR 73 as the best means of addressing


these challenges. SFAR 73 could be expanded to other low inertia rotor rotorcraft if necessary

[cattletruck]

I really enjoy reading this thread on the G2 but can we please keep it a little more focused and do the robbi bashing elsewhere thanks. Yes flying helicopters isn't cheap and yes the modern G2 is far superior, now lets move on.

[Peter-RB]

Hey Cattletruck

You cannot get away from the fact the R22 and the Cabri are similar in that they are small and used the same donk, people like me who have almost reached out to caress the face of god whilst flying one of the Robbie's need to explain that problem so others will be aware of what could happen.

None of us have heard any bad reports (except electric when left outside) about the flying and handling of the the little French job, so sorry to say this but experience shared makes for a better understanding of any flying machine.

Almost like, what is left after cattle vacate the truck?, yep you got it liquid brown stuff.

Peter R-B
Lancashire

[cattletruck]

Peter, yes many including myself have had our brown moments in an R22, let's leave that for another thread. In the meantime I'd like to hear more about G2 developments and hope one comes online in Melbourne soon.

[HeliHenri]

.

First G2 in Spain registred EC-MDP and that is sn 1080 !

.

[John R81]

Is this the first appearance of a G2 in a feature film? If so it would make a great answer to a "Trivia" question in years to come.

There is a shot of G-ETWO tail over the shoulder of the guys at 28 sec into the trailer. (Note: given the title, quite violent and perhaps not suitable for work / children)

We Still Kill The Old Way - YouTube

:ok:

[Freewheel]

Looks like a 120 to me, but I'm sure the Cabri will make it into films eventually.:ok:

[hu269]

Look closer, the tail in the hanger is defo that of a G2.....

[John R81]

Cigar for that man!

A cameo appearance. No doubt missed by many, and a 10,000 dollar winner in a trivia competition

[Freewheel]

Well spotted! :ok:

[JendaCZ]

k4Rs9TaLYBo

[Phoinix]

What is the typical useful load in G2? The website states 700kg MTOM, 420kg empty; that makes it about 280kg in crew and fuel?

How far from that is a typical flight training airframe?

[Phoinix]

Thank you. What about the performance charts; are they optimistic or realistic?

[Freewheel]

In the first few hundred hours, performance was ever so slightly ahead of the charts. I suspect they expected some deterioration with engine/blade life, but you'd have to ask them. It's always possible I got a rocket though :p

[HeliHenri]

.

Two new G2 have been registred in NZ : ZK-HTQ (sn 1071) ans ZK-HVG (sn 1077).

That brings the number of G2 in NZ to 11 .

.

[KiwiNedNZ]

Jack Murdoch, son of Kiwi distributor Terry Murdoch became the youngest pilot of the Cabri G2 in Christchurch, NZ on the weekend. It was Jack's 16th Birthday so he got to solo.

In this photo Jack hovers the Cabri with father Terry in front.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/KiwiNed/0000%202013%20FB%20Additions/Misc00536_zps3055943d.jpg

[eivissa]

Does the Cabri have special hour requirements for the type rating like the Robinsons (10hours initial including safety course?)

As all FTOs I contact are offering 5h plus skills test. I was under the impression that its only 2h+skills test if the candidate holds another single engine rating (i.e. R22)???

[JendaCZ]

No, there are completely no additional requirements to standard type rating according to EASA. It usually consists of 5 hrs + skill test. If you have type rating for SEP listed in AMC1 FCL.740.H(a)(3) you need just 2 hrs + skill test.

AMC1 FCL.740.H(a)(3) contains:
Bell47, Brantley B2. HU269, ENF28, Cabri G2, UH12, HU269, Bell47

Cabri is very forgiving helicopter. It has high innertia rotor with wide range of RPM, progresive governor with no tendency for engine overspeed, no Mast bumping and low possibility of dynamic rollover. So you don't need any special Safety course.

[FlyIneu]

Please can someone let me know the current purchase price of a Cabri G2, we are interested purchasing one for our flight school.

[tu154]

As far as I recall, ATOs need to have the short course approved, not all have the approval, and not all want to let someone loose on an aircraft after 2 hours anyway.

[vfr440]

Try calling Cotswold Helis, I think they are the UK agent :8 - VFR

[Hot and Hi]

We were recently quoted EUR 320k (which is around GBP 250k, or USD 400k at today's exchange rates.

For that price, or a little more, you can get an 1980's MD500D with over 10,000 hrs TTSN and 'average' component times. In a different thread somebody was saying that he or she is running the MD500 at direct operating costs no higher than a R22. Is that realistic?

[Hughes500]

Hot

I have a couple of 500's, never owned an R22 but loads of H300's all I can say I would be gob smacked if H500D was cheaper but having said that it depends upon how you compare.

EG fuel in Uk avgas is about £ 1.50 a litre and jet about .55p per litre

therefore R22 uses about £ 52.50 worth of fuel an hour MD 500 uses £ 62 per hour. But if you now ask about fuel cost per mile that changes things
In 1 hour R22 covers about 80nm 500 about 130 nm. Therefore for R22 to cover 130 nm fuel cost is £ 85 so you can argue that the turbine is cheaper on fuel !!!
Obviously comparing hourly costs is easy but per seat mile may be better as the MD wins due to its greater speed so you use less fuel less component times etc etc. Plus you have no time life components unlike Robinson or EC Airbus products

Basically you can make figures say anything you want to !!!

[HeliHenri]

.

Hughes500
Plus you have no time life components unlike Robinson or EC Airbus products


Hello Hughes500,

The EC120 has for exemple a Service Life Limit of 20 000 h for the Main Rotor Blades and 9 500 hours for the Tail Rotor Hub.
You don't have any SLL for these parts on your 500 ?


.

[Hot and Hi]

@HeliHenri

> Plus you have no time life components unlike Robinson or EC Airbus products

I suppose Hughes500 was talking about calendar life time limited components.

@Hughes500

I agree. It is a bit of a draw on fuel cost. If one compared to the R44, the fuel flow is a bit higher than on the R22, but so it the cruise speed, and of course cost per seat mile gets better with four seats.

Then again, in other countries the price difference between JetA1 and Avgas may not be so pronounced. In my country, Avgas is only 50% more expensive per litre than Avgas (JetA1 is about the same 55p, and Avgas 85p only).

So if fuel is much of a muchness, component, rebuild and maintenance cost as well as depreciation could make the difference.

> I have a couple of 500's

Many private pilots don't do more than 50 hrs per year. I would like to compare 12-year maintenance and rebuild cost of a Robinson product to the maintenance cost of a MD500, assuming that both do 600 flying hours over the same period.

For this to look favourable for the MD, I presume it's all about starting out with a MD500 with good component times, i.e., no major components that have <600 hrs time left. In your experience, is there much other maintenance expenses than those related to replacing time-ex components?

[Freewheel]

Are there any reports from Cabri operators of unscheduled maintenance costs?

With no exposed pitch links on the tail rootor, clutch operation drawn from engine oil pressure etc, some of the weaker items on R22s are removed. I have been told a Cabri is significantly cheaper to operate than an R22 but the unscheduled maintenance is always going to be telling.

Any actual information?

[Hughes500]

Hot

To answer your question is like asking how long is a piece of string !
For example
My 500's have to work for a living, one has come back from Sweden where it has done 900 hours chain sawing in 2 years. That is hard work on a machine constantly pulling near max cont power at below translational lift speed so tail rotor gearbox's take a hammering !
My other does about 350 hours a year of which 75 % is load lifting
So not really a fair comparision against a private machine To give you an idea I have had the D model for 18 years. Most expensive annual including rectification work £ 24k best £ 9K. This year have had more than a few unscheduled maintenance
1. FCU gave up £ 3500
2. Tail rotor gearbox making metal £ 4500
3. Blades debonding £2500 although blade repair under warranty
4. Compressor impellor cracked £ 14k

But this is on a machine with 6000 hours and built in 1981

Henri I mean calendar items eg Airbus 12 year G check or Robinson 12 year rebuild or Bell 24 month TT straps Although Kaflex driveshafts now have a 12 year o/h life where as they were on condition

Would love to see EC blades with 20000 hours on them !!!!
To give you an example
MR trx 4000 hours TR trx 4400 hours
MR blades 3530, TR blades 5400 hours MR head o/h 2770 hours with

swashplate MR dampers 6000, Tailboom 10000,

Big difference between an MD and a Robinson is the residual value.
D model purchased 1999 for £ 175k turned down £ 350k for it 6 months ago
Most 500's keep their value really really well, in fact I have owned 9 of them and have sold everyone for considerably more than I paid for it.

[Hot and Hi]

Thanks, Hughes500, for your valuable and comprehensive input!

[HeliHenri]

.



The number of Cabri in the US has just doubled last week.
Second (;)) G2 has been registred as N371PA to Precision Helicopters.
they fly the first one too and will have a total of five in the future.


.

[HeliHenri]

.



Two new Cabri have arrived in NZ (s/n 1081 and 1082), they're not registred yet.

There are now 13 G2 in Kiwiland.


.

[HeliHenri]

.


Some figures

2014 : 27 produced, 63 sold.

Fleet leaders with more than 4200 hours.

FAA certified with two delivered plus ten ordered.

And about the US, the G2 will be at the HAI next month with a price in $ about 25% lower than last year.


.

[CRAN]

Hi HeliHenri,

What is the current (or soon to be) list price for a Cabri G2?

Many Thanks,
CRAN
:ok:

[HeliHenri]

.

Hello CRAN, The G2 should cost around 290 000 € depending of the equipments. The price in dollar is decreasing because of the exchange rate.
A dealer will be much more precise.

.

[CRAN]

Thanks Henri.

CRAN
:ok:

[chalmondleigh]

Thanks to a lower Euro, Cabri customers in the UK can now expect to pay £15 - 20,000 less, depending on equipment and exchange rate on the day.

Cabri is the future!

[mark_]

What's the status of Canadian certification Henri?
Shouldn't be far behind the FAA cert?


Mark.

[rick1128]

At HeliExpo last year I talked with the folks at Precision Helicopters and according to the people I talked with, Canadian certification was in the works.

[Andy Moorhouse]

(Courtesy of HeliHub)
Following its best year of operation ever, and opening an even more promising year 2015, Helicopteres Guimbal has just received the final certification of the Cabri G2 helicopter from the FAA.

This success is the result of a smooth 16-month cooperation with the different specialists of the Federal Agency, including Operations, Flight tests and Documentation.

According to Bruno Guimbal, HG president & CEO, “the FAA certification opens one of the largest markets in the world, at the moment when our helicopter has proved itself the most efficient and safest piston helicopter for professional training, light aerial work and personal use. Two Cabri G2 have been already delivered in the USA, 10 are in order, and we enjoy a tremendous interest now from many potential customers”.

According to Olivier Gamard, head of Guimbal certification & airworthiness, “The process with the FAA was straightforward and raised no technical issues. The EASA certification is a perfect base for FAA validation due to similar requirements and reciprocal agreements, but different experiences and different compliance methods made some work necessary. The FAA also requested to carry out again some flight testing in order to confirm the remarkable flight characteristics of the Cabri G2″.

The Cabri G2 is now certified and flying in two-third of the world, including all Europe, New-Zealand, Australia, China, Hong-Kong, Vietnam, South Africa, the USA and affiliated countries.

The 100th Cabri G2 is now in the final assembly line in Aix-en-Provence. The whole fleet has logged approximately 50.000 flight hours with no injury, and the first helicopters have now flown about 4.200 hours and counting.

In 2014 Helicopteres Guimbal produced 27 helicopters for 9.2 M€, an increase of 62% over 2013, with a similar profit around 8%. The staff grew from 36 to 70 in this period of time.

63 firm orders were signed and the production is reaching one per week.

Expected growth in 2015 is above 60% again.

[HeliHenri]

.


Some news from UK

Multiflight at Leeds-Bradford has received the ninth G2 delivered in the country.

Flying Pig Helicopters at Elstree Aerodrome should received theirs soon.

And three more G2 are expected to arrive within two months.


.

[KiwiNedNZ]

And New Zealand will have 21/22 by the end of this year :)

[helihub]

UK may not catch up NZ by the end of this year, but the gap will be a lot narrower, particularly if you only count ex-factory deliveries as NZ bought a couple of pre-owned examples. UK continue the catching up, with the tenth Cabri now handed over to Helicentre Aviation this week

[Flap-Back]

Helicentre Aviation Academy's Cabri G2 fleet increases to five | Vertical Magazine - The Pulse of the Helicopter Industry (http://www.verticalmag.com/news/article/HelicentreAviationAcademysCabriG2fleetincreasestofive)

Another one has arrived in the UK this week. How many's that on the G-Reg now? 10? Does anyone have any statistics of Cabri numbers by country?

FB

[FLY 7]

Just seen the Savback ad in Helidata - they have two G2s for sale, both with TTAF of 4,400 hrs. That's pretty good going.

[HeliHenri]

.


Yes, they're the two fleet leaders.


There are two others G2 for sale in Germany, also due to fleet renewval.


.

[Hughes500]

As the ac is on condition why would you want a new one for ? Makes no financial sense., the accountant would have been depreciating it for tax reasons, to sell it would make give quite a large tax liability ?????
So why sell one, could understand if coming up to lots of new parts

[rick1128]

H500, It could be because of the internal policies and general operating philosophy.

[Jelico]

Interesting what they want for the 4400hr machines price wise. They certainly seem to hold their value well. Are the german machines for sale as high time as these two?

[Hughes500]

Jelico

Haven't been sold yet !!!

[HeliHenri]

.


german machines for sale as high time as these two?

Hello Jelico,

Less than 3000h

You're still looking for a second hand G2 ?

In the last two weeks, a French one went to Holland and an Italian one went to Switzerland.


.

[Jelico]

Yes potentially in the market for a G2. Have an R44 up for rebuild soon and a new opportunity that might like a G2 even sooner. Preferably secondhand - please PM me if you know of anything, although I am not interested in the 4000hr+ machines at this stage! Cheers

[HeliHenri]

.



The best part of an interview of Bruno about the G2 in the US by Vertical Mag :


This year will mark the second appearance for the Hélicoptères Guimbal Cabri G2 at a Heli-Expo, but its first since gaining certification from the United States Federal Aviation Administration (FAA).


The aircraft completed the 16-month certification process in February 2015, paving the way for its launch U.S. customer — Newberg, Ore.-based Precision Helicopters — to put the aircraft into full training operations at its flight school.


A successful debut at Heli-Expo in Anaheim, Calif., last year saw Guimbal, based in Aix-en-Provence, France, record 10 orders for the two-seater piston training aircraft from U.S. customers, and the first two of those have already been delivered.


While the aircraft has proved popular around the world since it gained its first regulatory type certificate from the European Aviation Safety Agency in 2007, Guimbal wanted to wait until the time was right to make the move into the U.S.


To begin with, the manufacturer found the sheer scale of the world’s largest civil helicopter market — and the high costs involved in entering it — were prohibitive to a company of its size and experience. But as the popularity and reputation of the Cabri G2 grew, Guimbal began to receive more and more enquiries about the possibility of bringing the aircraft to the U.S.


The manufacturer was looking for something very specific in its customers as it considered taking the Cabri G2 across the Atlantic. It wanted operators that were a training organization and an experienced FAA part 145 repair organization, and they needed to be prepared to order at least two helicopters.


These requirements, said Guimbal, were “because we can’t afford to have a small problem with a sensor or a wire destroying the image of the helicopter, simply because the maintenance specialist is 500 kilometers away.”


“The Cabri being introduced to the United States is going to be really a godsend for many of the training companies, because it’s a new technology, [and] it has very low maintenance costs — with a structure we hope will be very economically beneficial. There are only three components that are ‘time life’ on the aircraft, and then everything else is an ‘on condition’ component. . . It allows us to be proactive in a lot of our maintenance, and be good stewards of the aircraft — and then it’ll reward us in what we see in maintenance costs.”


Bruno Guimbal, the aircraft’s designer and the CEO and president of Hélicoptères Guimbal, said that while the aircraft was being used for a variety of utility roles in around the world, about 70 percent of the sales were for training.


“The market for two-seaters will always be based on training, because it’s a big market, and it’s the best helicopter for training,” he told Vertical Show News. “I designed the Cabri to be the best trainer that you could imagine. . . . qualities are particularly attractive for the training market.”


[I]“We were very surprised and very pleased with the amount of interest we captured during Heli-Expo last year,” said Guimbal. “We had absolutely no plans to sign any orders — we brought with us no order papers — and then we ended up signing 10 orders on blank pieces of paper with people that we did not know about the day before. Then we started to realize completely that the U.S. market is something different because people are very dynamic and they’re in pretty good shape at the moment.”


Tailor-Made Trainer | Vertical Magazine - The Pulse of the Helicopter Industry (http://www.verticalmag.com/news/article/TailorMadeTrainer)


This year, he should have "few" order papers ready !



.

[HeliHenri]

.

mark
What's the status of Canadian certification Henri?
Shouldn't be far behind the FAA cert?

Hello Mark,

According to the latest news, the work should begin this year to reach certification in 2016.

.

[KiwiNedNZ]

Bruno had a constant stream of visitors throughout the show. Got to chat with him a few times and mentioned about various orders they received :ok: Watch this space.

[HeliHenri]

.


For those who want to know how a G2 is build


Building a Guimbal Cabri G2 :


8QPGv9GA4Xg



.

[Dennis Kenyon]

I'm truly delighted to see the success of Bruno Guimbal's neat two-seat trainer. A new helicopter for the 21st Century.

It was a blustery day in February 2008, when Dave Calderwood, the Editor of the LOOP newspaper, dispatched me to Aix-en-Provence to try out a new EASA design.

As we floated alongside Cezanne's famous St Victoire mountain, I recall saying to myself ... and subsequently writing ... I'm on rung one of a ladder of success. A new type as French as the Eiffel tower with more curves than Nicolas Sarkozy's lady wife! An all-composite construction, a glass instrument presentation, plasma ignition, and a machine with dynamic components certified for 'on condition' replacement. All powered by a tried and trusted Lycoming that provides a 5 hour endurance. Autorotation and stroking seat crashworthiness was outstanding for a lightweight helicopter. Well done Bruno!

So, it is with a trace of satisfaction, I watch as the type gains ground in the industry. I see a couple of Cabris have made it into the 4000 hour TTSN area. So this is simply to offer my congratulations to Monsieur Guimbal and his team. No easy task getting a new type into EASA's CS-127 certification and I can only add, when can we expect the G4 to appear? Happy and many hours of safe flying to all.

[CRAN]

I'll second that; I'm delighted by the success of this project and can't wait for the G4.

CRAN
:ok:

[tu154]

So for the G4, is a 5 seater with a turbine engine using the Cabri design philosophy doable? The G2 beats the R22 in lots of ways, however the R44 has fewer of the drawbacks of the R22. So a 4 seater piston isn't the step up from the 44 than the G2 is over the 22?
A competitor for the R66 though could be interesting.

[KiwiNedNZ]

The Cabri also has some support from the Rugby world. Sneak peek at one of the shots from a recent shoot - the guy flying the silver fern branded Cabri is none other than All Blacks captain Richie McCaw :ok:

http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh627/HeliOpsMag/Misc%20Images/Cabri_zpsc00dj0uo.jpg (http://s1255.photobucket.com/user/HeliOpsMag/media/Misc%20Images/Cabri_zpsc00dj0uo.jpg.html)

[HeliHenri]

.

The 10th UK Cabri has been delivered to Elstree Helicopters.
There are now six ATO with G2 in UK.
13 G2 are on order so at the end of next year, there will be at least 23 G2 flying in UK.
HeliHub Elstree Helicopters takes delivery of 10th British Cabri (http://helihub.com/2015/03/18/elstree-helicopters-takes-delivery-of-10th-british-cabri/)

.

[Flap-Back]

From Helihub:

HeliHub Demand Identified for a Four Seat Cabri, Says Bruno Guimbal (http://helihub.com/2015/03/05/demand-identified-for-a-four-seat-cabri-says-bruno-guimbal/)

Demand Identified for a Four Seat Cabri, Says Bruno Guimbal

Guimbal Helicopters president Bruno Guimbal announced at Heli-Expo that his company has 75 firm orders from 13 countries for his company’s Cabri G2 two-seat helicopter. Over 180 have now been sold since the first helicopter was launched into the market back in 2009.

Calculations reveal that the whole fleet has now logged over 50,000 flying hours with 90% of that being flown as training flights. “The fleet leader has 4,300 hours gained over four and a half years,” sated Guimbal. “There has been zero loss and zero injury; if we can succeed in training we can succeed in any market he said.

Noise levels have been an important target and the helicopter has been certified at 75.2 db.

The going has been difficult with many customers ordering just one to begin with. Heli Aviation in Germany had been the exception he said, as they eventually ordered a fleet of eight Cabris. The Helicentre in the UK, near Leicester, had been more cautious, initially only renting one helicopter. “Now they are 100% behind Cabri and have five with three more on order.

Other customers include Vietnam National Helicopters with a lot of bureaucracy to overcome, but they are now a loyal customer with great growth possibilities.

Guimbal said that he had received at least six firm prospects for a bigger four seat version of the Cabri – I have received stretched photos from customers showing what they want,” he added.

“The market is not so much price sensitive as trust sensitive,” concluded Guimbal. Direct operating costs are between $150-$200 per hour.

[CRAN]

The going has been difficult with many customers ordering just one to begin with.

“The market is not so much price sensitive as trust sensitive,” concluded Guimbal.

I think the two point's above are really interesting. If you were setting out to maximise revenue for a 2-seat machine (value x units sold), what would that price need to be?

When the R22 was introduced in 1979 it cost $40,000 if you use one of the online inflation calculators that comes out at around $131,000 in todays money and at that kind of price level they sold 400 units per year. It's now priced at $285,000 and they sell around 40 of them a year.

The R22 started in the realm of the expensive car buyer and is now much, much more expensive which would seem to make sense. There is of course the fact that the R44 came along which is a much better machine for a private owner, if you can afford it.

Is the above quote merely a facet of the fact that now only very wealthy private individuals can afford to purchase helicopters, in which case the safety and performance are much more important that the cost.

It would be very interesting to see if 2-seater sales levels of 400 units per year would return with a machine at around the $150,000 mark.

Obviously the cost of developing and certifying a machine are far higher these days, so its not really fair to compare the R22 and the G2, this is merely a discussion what effect escalating costs are having on the light helicopter market in general.

Looking forward to the G4!

CRAN
:ok:

[CRAN]

The going has been difficult with many customers ordering just one to begin with.

“The market is not so much price sensitive as trust sensitive,” concluded Guimbal.

I think the two point's above are really interesting. If you were setting out to maximise revenue for a 2-seat machine (value x units sold), what would that price need to be?

When the R22 was introduced in 1979 it cost $40,000 if you use one of the online inflation calculators that comes out at around $131,000 in todays money and at that kind of price level they sold 400 units per year. It's now priced at $285,000 and they sell around 40 of them a year.

The R22 started in the realm of the expensive car buyer and is now much, much more expensive which would seem to make sense in terms of the sales volume drop. There is of course the fact that the R44 came along which is a much better machine for a private owner, if you can afford it.

Is the above quote merely a facet of the fact that now only very wealthy private individuals can afford to purchase helicopters, in which case the safety and performance are much more important that the cost. At the 1979 relative price level anyone who could afford a fancy car could afford an R22, surely this is the crux of the matter.

It would be very interesting to see if 2-seater sales levels of 400 units per year would return with a machine at around the $150,000 mark.

Obviously the cost of developing and certifying a machine are far higher these days, so its not really fair to compare the R22 and the G2, this is merely a discussion what effect escalating costs are having on the light helicopter market in general.

Looking forward to the G4!

CRAN
:ok:

[Freewheel]

Cran,

Examination of the R22 pricing says something to me;

Lawsuits are expensive!

[HeliHenri]

.

The second Precision Helicopters' G2 exposed at the HAI is starting today a road trip / road show from Orlando to Portland (is new home).

The stops should be Macon, Mobile, Baton rouge, Houston, Phoenix, Las Vegas, Salt Lake City, Boise and Big Bend.

.

[chalmondleigh]

CRAN & Freewheel

Your comments regarding historical R22 pricing prompted me to dig out the original invoice for my first R22 which was invoiced to me in December 1988 at $103,550 ex works.

The price list, dated August 1987, that came with the sales material shows the list price at $91,850 to which I added the auxiliary fuel tank, heater, removable dual controls, fire extinguisher, vertical compass, millibar altimeter, transponder, and VOR.

From $40,00 to almost $92,000 in eight years.

The same sales literature also listed the base price of the 300c at $132,000 and the 280F at $159,400 for comparison.

[CRAN]

I can't help thinking that we are stuck in a vicious circle. The high prices, limit the sales volumes, which in turn increases the cost of new products by forcing new manufactures to base the amertisation of R&D and setup costs on smaller numbers of machines.

I wonder if as a community of helicopter buyers we could act as a buying group and work more closely with willing manufacturers to secure a lower price if we could collectively order say 1000 units over the next five years?



CRAN
:ugh:

[whoknows idont]

@CRAN: Great plan. Good luck with finding 1000 buyers. Also keep in mind you might have to wait 15 years until delivery of the 1000th unit. Have fun with the paperwork... :E

[cockney steve]

Given the very long model production-life, amortisation would seem to be a bit of a red-herring....surely a return on development capital would be more appropriate, when most production-runs are going to be around 50 years for a proper design like the Cabri.
A low margin will mean better sales, which ,in turn, will give a better profit volume.....It's the old TESCO*maxim....pile it high, sell it cheap.
Mr. Cohen was happy to make a penny on a bag of sugar and sell a thousand.....whilst his competitor made 5 pence a bag and only sold a hundred.

Yes, I know it's a huge simplification, but the basic principle holds good.
Mr. Guimbal is obtaining a realistic return for his endeavours and seems to have a very healthy order-book.....his standing costs (buildings, plant,machinery) are already covered to ramp -up production to keep his factory buzzing , say 16 hours a day, will (assuming a present 8-hour day)
will double (almost) his labour and materials costs, ditto with fuel, Power etc.
THEREFORE , THE COST PER UNIT WILL TUMBLE.
If this is in part passed on in a more attractive price, the potential owner-base will expand exponentially.

Unlike other "budget" helicopters, the Cabri is well-designed, inherently "right", with no cost-cutting in critical areas....the result, as we are seeing, is a long-life, reliable machine which is not going to "calendar" out of time nor , it seems, suffer main-blade failures or other critical -component recalls for expensive rectification.

If I were a pilot, looking for a small ,modern 2-seat machine, I would buy one in a heartbeat.

I must confess the lack of warranty, back when it was initially marketed, seemed to me to be a fatal ,basic , marketing error.

I was wrong....better qualified people than me, evaluated the product, paid their cash, and have proved that they and Mr Guimbal have sound judgement.

It is great to see a business like this making a terrific sucsess of a "right first time" product. :D:D:D

[Bravo73]

Stuff

Is it worth pointing out that the Cabri will probably never be profitable over the lifetime of the aircraft? It is just a 'loss leader'.

However, the real money with come from the French military UAV which will be/is developed from the Cabri technology.

[HeliHenri]

Are you serious Bravo73 ?

[Bravo73]

Are you serious Bravo73 ?

You are quite obviously a very loyal Cabri salesman, HeliHenri, but yep, I'm deadly serious: New JV gives Eurocopter foothold in UAV market - 6/14/2005 - Flight Global (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/new-jv-gives-eurocopter-foothold-in-uav-market-199467/)