Aerobatics in a Rallye

[englishal]

Has anyone done any aerobatics in a Rallye? I'm just curious as to how it handled - ours is a 160HP SV. I'm doing the AOPA course and as our attempt to buy a Bulldog seems to have fallen through I thought it'd be nice to do the odd roll in our Rallye (once I have finished the course ;))....

Cheers

[air18150]

Is this round two of the ecent long running `rolling a 172 thread`? - lets hope not. I have not flown a Rallye or read the POH so have no idea if rolling is even permitted. However I do know they are very prone to corrosion and that I have never heard one being described as even semi-aerobatic (like the Beagel Pups). So I recommend that you ditch the idea promptly and rent something designed for the job until your aquisition plans come to fruition. I am assuming that the POH makes no mention of `rolling` or you would not be asking the question on here.

[foxmoth]

I have not flown a Rallye or read the POH so have no idea if rolling is even permitted.

In which case why bother to comment on something you know nothing about!
Not sure about all versions but I know some are aerobatic, so long now since I flew one that I will leave it to others to comment.:hmm:

[Mariner9]

I haven't read the POH either, and was thinking the same thing Foxmoth.

I have never heard one being described as even semi-aerobatic

Well I know Wikipedia aint the POH, but:

After the war Morane-Saulnier produced a number of trainer and civilian aircraft models, of which the best-known was the successful "Rallye" series of four-seat STOL semi-aerobatic tourers

Hopefully a Rallye driver will be along in due course to provide definitive information :ok:

[Rallye Driver]

I only ever flew the 880, which was underpowered and unaerobatic.

However, the bigger engined versions were more capable as this picture shows

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v165/YakRider/ArmedRallye.jpg

Just the thing for dealing with people who cut you up in the circuit. :E

RD :ok:

[englishal]

Yes it is semi "aerobatic", so you don't have to fear ;). The POH describes a number of manoeuvres that it is cleared for in the utility cat, including rolls, spins, stall turns, loops etc...We also don't have any corrosion problems (completely rebuilt in 2005).

I ask because not being an aero's expert (though have done some and will do some more in a proper aeros aeroplane) I would like someone elses opinion on how the aeroplane handles in these aero's. I'd imagine if doing a loop the leading edge slats would pop out and wondered how this would affect the loop. Also is it possible to even loop the thing and keep within the G limitations? The G limits of the Rallye are only 4.5G or 4.75G (haven't got the POH on me here) I think in the utility cat, which is not much, but the POH states not to exceed 3G in any manoeuvre (I guess to give a buffer).....Unlike the 172 the Rallye is very responsive and has a good rate of roll...

Just curious really, I wouldn't do any hardcore aero's in it, but the odd wingover, roll etc....would be nice:)

[stiknruda]

With the caveat that I have never even sat in a Rallye, far less flown one: I see no reason why you would need to pull more than 3G to loop.

All the aerobatic types that I have flown (Pitts, Eagle, CAP, Extra, Tiger Moth, Stampe) all have had min and max entry speeds for a range of maneouvers in the POH. Some were even placarded in the airframe.

If it were me and the book said inside loop 80-140 units of IAS. I'd firstly check that the ASI and the book were using the same units. If one is in KPH and the other in Knots, then I'd mentally calibrate the ASI to reflect the book. On a CoA aircraft, the ASI should use the same units but I have known where this was not the case! I assume that there is an accelerometer in the a/c - if not I'd gaffer tape one somewhere safe and visible.

After ensuring the W&B were inside acceptable limits and that the airframe was secure (loose cushions, etc), my first attempt would be solo, at something like 4000'.

Dive to 120, then gently pull back to 3G, feed in right rudder as she decellerates, you'll need more back stick as the elevator is less energised at lower speed, float over the top from 10 to 2 and then recommence my pull to 3G on the downhill portion.

If it is struggling over the top, I'd make my second one at 130units and see how that improved things, then at 140. If it coped admirably at 120, then I'd start the next loop at 110, then at 100, then 90, etc.

I would also note the start height and finish height and if possible, the speed at the top whilst inverted!

You will then have a good idea of how responsive/stable the a/c is at different speeds. This will then help you on your second sortie when you want to demonstrate the loop to someone brave.


Stik

[Kolibear]

I threw the Koliber's POH out quite recently, I knew it was a mistake!

ISTR that she was cleared for gentle aerobatics, but not for intentional spinning.

What makes me think twice about aerobatting a Rallye would be the leading edge slats. I would imagine that coming around the top of a loop, one would be fairly slow which causes the slats come out. These give extra lift, which is fine if you are the right way up, but maybe not quite so helpful if you are inverted.

Stik - you are the expert - any comments??

[waldopepper42]

I'm no expert, but since you are (hopefully) still pulling positive g at the top of the loop, then the slats would assist in the normal fashion - i.e. reducing the stall speed (normal +ve stall remember, even if you are upside down) and helping you around the loop.

OK guys - that's my uninformed guess: I will acept any more knowledgeable replies / criticisms. Try to avoid the personal attacks though - it's embarrasing to cry in the office.:{

[skyfiend]

I have flown a few hours in a 145hp Rallye. It is cleared for aeros and I have looped it and slow rolled it.

Loops are pretty standard, but you need a fair bit of pitch up before entering the slow roll.

Good fun machine...

Air18150: I really can't see why you would bother to post such drivel...

[Vino Collapso]

Later series Rallyes with the taller fin and rudder (100S, 100ST and their 150hp bretheren) were intentionally spinnable but have to be thrown in otherwise it is prone to a spiral dive.

The 150ST was supposedly aerobatic in the 'utility' category with reduced fuel and payload. Have been through a couple of loops many years ago in one and found them basically simple with no vices. Its lack of inverted systems and overall puff would tend to leave it out of the aerobatic competition arena.

If flying one that has been previously aerobatted look for ripples in the upper skin of the wings as this is where the tell tale signs of high G manifests itself.:eek:

[Zulu Alpha]

Tiger Moths have slats and if I remember there is a requirement to lock them closed before aerobatting. This is because one can deploy without the other, which sort of throws things off balance.
Maybe the Rallye has the slats linked (so that neither or both always deploy).
As Stik says just take it gently and be high. The danger in a loop is that you are upside down and slow at the top (well you should be). If unco-ordinated and too slow this could go all wobbly on you and cause an inverted spin. I would get the recomended speeds and keep in the top third ie if its 100-130 kts then start at 120. Might be easier to start with a wing over first and then maybe a roll.

[TheKentishFledgling]

ISTR that she was cleared for gentle aerobatics, but not for intentional spinning.

Out of curiosity, are there many types that are cleared for aerobatics (gentle or otherwise..) but aren't cleared for intentional spinning? Seems a bit strange to me :confused:

tKF

[TheOddOne]

Zulu Alpha says:
Maybe the Rallye has the slats linked (so that neither or both always deploy).


Yes, they most certainly are! A part of the pre-flight check is to gently get hold of one and pull it out and check that the other side comes out in unison.

I did my first 100 hours in Rallyes and the ones we had (including a 150ST) were aerobatic at utility config. We had one instructor who was keen on aeros and would do so at the slightest excuse. Rolls, loops and stall turns all within the a/c's capabilities.

However, our CFI didn't like us doing aeros because of the cost of replacing the gyro instruments on a frequent basis as the bearings got shot to h*ll.

Now, spinning. Some would say that the Rallye couldn't enter a true spin because you couldn't maintain a stalled wing as the a/c yawed due to the slats and all you were doing was a tight spiral dive. However, the old C150 trick of 1500RPM, pull smartly up then stamp on the left rudder pedal was pretty dramatic and went round plenty fast enough for me! Spinning was just being taken out of the syllabus then so I didn't have to do it for the GFT.

If Koliber have taken aeros out of their POH for the a/c type, shame on them!

Yes, corrosion is a problem with Rallyes, ours succommed to a new spar, but I think you'd find it before the airframe degraded beyond the stated 'G' limits.

Every Rallye I've flown has a 'G' meter fitted as standard, an indication of the manufacturers invitation to do aeros in it, I think. Ours used to indicate 2.5G on a startup, it shook about so much.

A great fun aeroplane, super for short strips but the lower powered versions especially are really uncomfortable on long trips.

Rallye Driver:

I think I sat in that one at Farnborough many years ago. The stick had a firing button on it. Great!

Cheers,
TheOddOne

[stiknruda]

Koli - not at all an expert, just enthusiastic!!

You are flying a +ve maneouvere, as ZA says the slats in the Tiger are locked before looping, if fitted, not sure about the Rallye.

ZA says, if slow and wobbly it could be an inverted spin. What I believe he really means is a positive spin entered from the inverted. Top of a loop the stick is well aft of neutral and unless you "grossly" mishandle the recovery, it will not cross-over and go negative on you. But if you do that can be a wild ride, I speak from experience!

[englishal]

Thanks chaps :ok: When I am a bit braver (and done a few more aeros in another aeroplane) maybe I'll try a solo roll to get started...;)

The POH does indeed state entry speeds.....
Cheers

[Mad Girl]

englishal said
When I am a bit braver (and done a few more aeros in another aeroplane) maybe I'll try a solo roll to get started...;)


Just a thought....

Check your POH for W&B considerations when doing aeros first (i.e where's the C of G with two up)...... but, why don't you ask someone we both know ;), to go up with you a few times, so that you've got someone more experienced with you whilst you're gently exploring what it can do??

You know he wants to make sure his students are safe to enjoy their aeros, so I reckon he'd say yes.... :ok:

[Zulu Alpha]

What I believe he really means is a positive spin entered from the inverted.

Yes indeed, well spotted. Difficult to get into an inverted spin with the stick back.

So what I meant was what Stik said, a zero airspeed flop off the top with possible a positive spin to follow. All good fun but the recovery will take quite some height, creates quite some airspeed and quite some G's....Enjoy.

Being a bit faster at the start will ensure good controllability over the top. So its better to be fast to start than slow.

[foxmoth]

All good fun but the recovery will take quite some height, creates quite some airspeed and quite some G's....Enjoy.
If it is creating airspeed then it ain't a spin - in a spin the airspeed stays low until recovery, yes you can build speed up then but I would not have thought that much if you were in a proper spin and pull out of the dive without too much delay:}

[mutt]

Spent many a summer evening in Weston (Ireland) watching Capt Darby Kennedy doing aerobatics in Rallyes, he had an amazing talent which was a joy to watch.....

Mutt

[POBJOY]

I think you will find that the "aerobatic" rallye does have a facility to lock the slats in for aero.s.
As for the corrosion situation, those that were affected have mostly departed the register,and would have been grounded by the engineer doing a coa renewal.
The 893 series were beefed up for "commercial " work,and are allowed certain gentle throwing around at a reduced weight.
I am always amused by images of the "ground attack" version,as although strong enough, its slow speed would make it very vunerable to a well thrown spear.
Although subject to ridicule,and scorn the (tin parachute) is still in evidence all over europe,and i suspect was produced in greater numbers than any other post war uk/european aircraft.
The 150-180 hp models are great fun when flown out of strips too small for the american types.

[Dan Winterland]

Indeed, some models of the Rallye are aerobatic. (Check the POH). The later Aerospatiale models tend to be, the earlier Mauraune Saulanier's don't. IMHO, it's not actually bad at aeros, nicer than the C152 so called 'Aerobat'. I had a later model 150 ST (ST stood for 'Sports Tourer') and used to fly gentle aeros which were a delight to perform. But a lot of ST's only had 3 point harnesses which were not suitable for negative g, and an accelerometer was generally not standard equipment. So it wasn't an aircraft to learn the art in.

Some models do have the slat locking device. On aircraft without, aero's with the slats pooping in and out generally aren't a problem unless g is 'snapped on' when they come out with a bang and the drag prents you from doing much more. Although I wouldn't recommend it, I did try a tip from a mate who was a US Navy TA4 instructor and tape the leading edge deviced closed sometimes. (They used to do it to the TA4 which had similar automatic pressure operated leading edge devices which weren't linked like the Rallyes and used to give them a real headache in air combat manoeuvreing). The POH states that if the slats lock in, to add 5kts to the approach speed.

The Rallye is a very capable and much maligned aircraft. Much better than a lot of American aircraft. :ok:

[englishal]

Thanks....

Ours in the 150SV with 160HP. Doesn't have slat locking device but is fitted with 5 point harnesses and G meter - actually I just found a picture of it on the web here (not sure who took it):

http://i1.planepictures.net/49/40/1149694695_TN.jpg

I absolutely love the Rallye - it is probably one of the nicest aeroplanes I have flown, all be it a little slower than some ;) But the fun is in the flying anyway, I am in no rush to get anywhere and it is still far faster than driving...And I KNOW I can land on any strip pretty much...

Thanks MG - maybe I will ask;)