Correct phraeseology

[see_my_slots]

Just wanting to run something past y'all. Was recently doing an insructors test, when during the forced landing, instead of leaving me to it, the FTO told me to 'dump the flaps'. What does this mean? Does it mean extend, or retract? I was really annoyed at this, thinking it meant the latter and thinking - engine failure, on finals, retract the flaps???!!! - but upon talking to someone who interpreted it as the opposite I can understand why. However, shouldn't I have been left to prove I could make it? Especially as i asked to be left to it and it would have been a great FLWOP. Also, surely an FTO should be using unambiguous phraseology too.

Thoughts?

[Nathan Parker]

FTO told me to 'dump the flaps'. What does this mean? Does it mean extend, or retract?I'm in the US, so take it for what it's worth, but I'd have interpreted it to mean "retract". "Dump", to me, means "get rid of". Now, "Drop the flaps" would mean extend.

Ambiguous phraseology is a problem, but there isn't a standard for everything. I've told students "FULL power" which they heard as "PULL power", to our great dissatisfaction.

[training wheels]

Yeah, I agree with you there. Ambiguous phraseology doesn't help one bit, especially from someone who should be setting the standards. If I was in your position, I'd politely ask for clarification there and then ... "excuse me sir/madam, do you mean extend or retract flaps?"

... and isn't it not good airmanship to retract flaps on final unless you're doing a go-around?

[A Very Civil Pilot]

I would take 'dump' flaps to be get rid of them - i.e clean configuration, and 'drop' flaps to lower them.

However a/c type is an issue as well. On Cessnas you lower the flap lever to lower the flaps, whilst on Piper, you raise the flap lever to lower the flaps.

Is dumping/dropping in relation to the flaps, or movement of the lever to get the flaps to where youy want them?

A good reason to follow SOPs.

[the dean]

a very good example slots of non standard phrasiology leading to confusion. thanks for bringing it up...or laying it down before us so to speak...!!!:}...

particularly important that as instructors we make it clear what we mean in clear unambiguous language...

i used to tell those on the course that their flying should be beyond reproach..the instructors course is about guiding someone in how to TEACH...not to fly as such...

and as an example when on base or finals and i am told 'take off power'..i either close the throttle completely and when asked why i say well you did'nt tell me to reduce power and tell me the value to which you wanted it reduced...

OR..i open the throttle fully.. and when asked i will say well you asked for take off power...take off power is full power..!!!:ooh:...that usually proves the point.:ok:

flaps away..!!..*****..there it goes again...:E

the dean.

[Nathan Parker]

... and isn't it not good airmanship to retract flaps on final unless you're doing a go-around?

The person was doing an engine-out emergency landing. If he had lowered flaps too early and making the field was unlikely, raising them again would be prudent.

[Whopity]

Some interesting comments illustrating how slang can be confusing. I have heard the term "dump the flaps" on a number of occasions and it has meant completely the opposite to the conclusions.

To dump would imply to drop or to lower.

The question is, where were the flaps when you were told to dump them? If they were up it implied lower them, if down it probably meant the opposite!

[VFE]

If he had lowered flaps too early and making the field was unlikely, raising them again would be prudent

Pardon?

VFE.

[foxmoth]

The question is, where were the flaps when you were told to dump them? If they were up it implied lower them, if down it probably meant the opposite!

With more than up/down an at an intermediate setting I would presume - so which way to go?

[bookworm]

I've been trying to find an account of a very similar issue, which I thought got a mention in Steven Cushing's Fatal Words, but perhaps it was a Callback or Chirp. In that particular case, the instruction was to "put some flap in", which one crewmember intended as "extend", and the other interpreted as "retract".

Choose better words, and encourage others to do the same.

[BigEndBob]

Also "take-off power" is a classic...

And " I want you to use the full length of the runway"...
so he did right to the very end!

[Nathan Parker]

Pardon? VFE.

If, during an engine-out approach, the pilot extends full flaps prematurely, the resulting steep descent angle may result in not arriving at the chosen landing point. Raising the flaps may repair the damage by reducing the drag and extending the glide range.

[TheOddOne]

I've just started teaching on a mix of AA5 and PA28. Re the PA28, I explain that the throttle quadrant makes it easier to sense the direction of movement required and I'm using the phrases 'advance' or 'retard' the power. This also fits well with the plunger type throttle on some early AA5 and also Cessnas. 'Full Power' and 'Idle Power' are good for the ends of the range. Should I be saying 'throttle' instead of 'power', though?

Flaps on Cessnas are a no-brainer 'raise' or 'lower' are good words and as said above the actuating lever and the indicator move in the same sense. PA28 flaps are a bu**er in this regard and I brief that it'll take a time to get it right, more practice at applying and removing different flap settings at height before the circuit, I think a good idea.

The AA5 OUGHT to be as easy as the Cessna, but I have found people find confusion because the switch and indicator move fore-and-aft, not up and down so there's no natural sense to it. Not as bad as the PA28, but not good. I'll still carry on with 'Raise' and 'lower' though, but sometimes '1st stage', '2nd stage' '3rd stage' seem appropriate.

TOO

[A Very Civil Pilot]

I taught a farmer to fly once. The hand throttle control on a tractor steering column is reverse of an aircraft - i.e full power is pull the lever back.

It resulted in some very slow take-off rolls.

[VFE]

Again you are assuming this action is carried out at a safe height. What would happen, for example, if a pilot were to retract full flap at say, 100ft on the approach when the airspeed has decreased to such an extent due to the resultant drag?

VFE.

[BA123]

Dump can also mean to let go though so in this case dump the flaps could mean let them all go. As in fully extend

[Nathan Parker]

Again you are assuming this action is carried out at a safe height. What would happen, for example, if a pilot were to retract full flap at say, 100ft on the approach when the airspeed has decreased to such an extent due to the resultant drag?

It's true that if the aircraft were at or below the zero flap stalling speed, raising the flaps would require an increase in AOA that would produce a stall.

However, if the pilot has slowed to such speeds, it's because he has the mistaken (but intuitive) belief that the elevator is the "up" control. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. :) The flaps alone will not slow him to this speed, because the the drag alone produces a greater descent angle, not an airspeed reduction. The airspeed reduction, as always, is proceduced by an AOA change. However, sometimes flaps produce a pitching moment around the CG which, in effect, retrims the airplane for a different airspeed. In the Mooney I fly, flap extension will *increase* the airspeed, not reduce it.

Regardless, most pilots realize well before 100 ft that they won't make their target. If they're on airspeed, as they should be, raising the flaps won't cause a problem.

[VFE]

Regardless, most pilots realize well before 100 ft that they won't make their target. If they're on airspeed, as they should be, raising the flaps won't cause a problem.

So you would rather teach a student to increase the angle off attack at low level instead of teaching them to lower flap when they know they can safely make the landing spot (see the thread re:flap on base), purely because this upsets the trim of the aircraft?? You're nuts pal. Aircraft stall when the critical angle of attack is exceeded - not at a given airspeed.

VFE.

[QNH 1013]

Quote:

It's true that if the aircraft were at or below the full flap stalling speed, raising the flaps would require an increase in AOA that would produce a stall.

If the aircraft is at or below the full flap stalling speed and in 1g condition (e.g. wings-level constant glide descent) then it is already stalled.

[Nathan Parker]

If the aircraft is at or below the full flap stalling speed and in 1g condition (e.g. wings-level constant glide descent) then it is already stalled.

Yes, sorry. I've corrected the post. Thank you.

[Nathan Parker]

So you would rather teach a student to increase the angle off attack at low level instead of teaching them to lower flap when they know they can safely make the landing spot

Good grief man, people make mistakes. Teaching them to fix mistakes is what an instructor is supposed to do.

Aircraft stall when the critical angle of attack is exceeded - not at a given airspeed.

And in 1-g flight, the airspeed is a measure of AOA. Heck, at any steady g-level, airspeed measure AOA, but the airspeeds are just different from 1-g flight.

I'm giving you good information here. If you teach "never raise the flaps", you're teaching rote memorization, rather than giving a good understanding of how an airplane flies. What I'm telling you works; go up to altitude and experiment.

[VFE]

Where is the relative airflow coming from in a glide decent?

VFE.

[Nathan Parker]

Where is the relative airflow coming from in a glide decent?

Huh? The relative wind comes from the same direction at a particular airspeed. Climb, descent, doesn't matter.

To a rough approximation, an aircraft at a particular airspeed will have, say, a 6 degree AOA in level flight, descents, and climbs. This is slightly affected by the fact that in climbs and descents, part of the vertical forces supporting the airplane are provided by thrust and drag respectively, requiring less lift from the airplane. But in shallow climbs, the effect is small.

[Troy McClure]

You're on 'base' to a suitable field, select 2 stages flap. Turn 'final' towards the field and realise you're not quite going to make it because the wind is more than you allowed for. Sure, I'd remove the flap again.

And yes, I'd adjust the pitch as required to make sure I maintained a safe airspeed (that's a no-brainer isn't it?).

The main point is you'll always be lower now than had you not taken flap in the first place, but clean you'll now glide further because the drag is less.

If you're at 100 feet when you realise you're not going to make the field, you're screwed anyway. Just hope you picked a field with an alternative in the undershoot. Which of course you did, didn't you.....

[Oktas8]

I've observed two kinds of pilots.

Those who are willing to learn new techniques and those who are not.

Once upon a time I would have been in the latter group (the arrogance of inexperience I suppose). Happily not so much any more (usually :) ).

Keep up the good work Nathan.