Tailwheel Woes

[modelman]

Had my first taildragger lesson on Saturday ( I am PPL with 85hrs all on Cessna/Piper trikes) in a Chipmunk.
Loved every minute of it and thought ( in my limited overall experience) that it handled very nicely and certainly illustrated what the rudder is for in coordinated turns.
BUT-The take off/landing runs were like a demented shopping trolley-very cool guy in the back basically leaving it all to me :eek:( although gave a very thorough briefing preflight).He seemed very happy with my general handling and my approaches and touchdowns (although the stick back to the stomach takes a bit of getting used to) but once on the ground it was Tesco time again:confused:.

Had thought up till now that my future lay in flying spamcans for the ubiquitous bacon butty ( have done the L2k thing as well) but I think flying something like a Chippie is likely to be more challenging/fun.

Does it generally take very long to master this and do experienced tailwheel pilots still have the occasional meander?
Any special reason why the Chipmunk doesn't have a lockable tailwheel which might have tamed it a bit?

MM

[eharding]

Yes, everyone has that feeling at one time or another, particularly at first.

I did my tailwheel conversion in a Pitts S2 with Alan Cassidy, and had much the same impression as you during the first few sorties. AC's reaction to my misgivings was...."Well, so does everyone; what makes you think you're different to everyone else?".

Hang on in there.

[stiknruda]

Most of my time (75%) is in tail wheel a/c.

I have a good bit of Chipmunk time but have never had to fly one with "silly" x-winds.

The Chippie is a rather benign aircraft, especially in that difficult 12", 'tween ground and air/air and ground.

Sounds to me like you just need more time in her!

Have fun.


Stik

[Contacttower]

My first tail dragger was the Super Cub, and yes the first time I was all over the shop. Things like the direction of the wind and the swing at the start of the take off run were suddenly so much more important, also remembering the visual picture when the tail was up (for about a second when solo :)). After a little while I got used to it and but even now things go wandering a bit sometimes. I have never landed a tail dragger on the hard before- I'm told it is harder than grass. You really can't take good landings for granted like you can in the PA28 for example. Taildraggers demand more attention and concentration but remember at one time everyone learnt on them, its just today that the GA world has gone soft. :E

[stickandrudderman]

I too have recently been hooked on taildraggers, and in particular the Chippie.
I find that the aircraft somehow involves the pilot so much more in the experience, not just in terms of handling, but in terms of soul!
The smell and the sound combined with the feeling of being a "temorary custodian" of a valuable antique all combine to force the muscles in my face to contort so that a smile becomes impossible to avoid!
Even just taxiing with the canopy back is just such a wonderful feeling!
I've also recently had a go in the Pitts with AC at WW, and was sufficiently moved to start a thread about it.
If only the vagueries of time and money didn't impeed me so; I'd be able to tell you of my significant progress after my initial lesson!
Anyway, I'm babbling again.......
Stick with it and enjoy!!:ok:

[IFMU]

Does it generally take very long to master this and do experienced tailwheel pilots still have the occasional meander?

mm,

Tailwheel flying is not a skill just for the supremely gifted. If it was, we would have had a lot less pilots before nosewheels. Plus, as further proof, even I can do it.

Nosewheel airplanes don't give you the quality feedback when you do a less than quality job of lining up the airplane with its direction of travel. Tailwheel airplanes do. Once you get the hang of it, it's not so bad. Remember, there are no squirrley airplanes, only squirrley pilots.

As far as the occasional meander, you betcha. Just like any flying skill, the best measure of a pilot is not necessarily doing it perfect every time, but more so the ability to recover when you have screwed it up. Just don't let it go too far! And if you have let it go too far, and have flying speed, get them wheels off the ground! Then the problem goes away.

I'm a firm believer in training on hardtop. Crosswinds and all. Everybody is different, but I've seen guys who are very intimidated by pavement. Get that trained out early and it's no big deal.

-- IFMU

[Dan Winterland]

Keep at it and don't get discourraged. You can't expect to geh it hacked in 1 hour. You're now finding out what your feet are for!

DW (1000ish hrs on Chipmunks)

[QDMQDMQDM]

In my own experience it is a good 15-20 hours before the fear starts to abate, but it is well worth it. You can never take tailwheel flying for granted though, which is the way it should be.

[Winco]

Modelman,

The thing I like the most about Taildraggers, is that there is no 'let up' in controlling them, in particular, on the ground as you have found.

I fly an Auster and love every minute of it. The take off is always exciting, and like you, in the early days I genuingly believed there was something wrong with the aircraft - I was all over the runway!

Likewise, the landing was equally 'challenging' but so, so satisfying when a good one came along.

Even the taxi out and back takes practice and a lot of concentration. I recall after I had done about 80 hrs on Taildraggers (all Austers) I thought I had it cracked. I came in to land one day, and just after touchdown as I was slowing down to taxi speed, I relaxed a bit too much and the back end went and round we spun!! You have to control it from start up to shut down.

I'm not sure you (or anyone) ever really masters them - I have a good friend with 18,000 hours, who tells me that every 3rd or 4th landing in his Auster is 'interesting'!! - I say no more.

Stick with it, it does get better and easier, but after you've been in a taildragger like the Chipmunk or Auster, the Spamcans will be so easy, and they won't be half as much fun anymore!

Regards
The Winco

[pulse1]

I have a good friend with 18,000 hours, who tells me that every 3rd or 4th landing in his Auster is 'interesting'!!

Winco,

Thanks for posting that. Having recently converted back to a taildragger after many years, just as I think I've got it beat, an "interesting" one comes along. You've made me feel a bit better about it.:uhoh::)

[vulcanpilot]

I remember my 1st couple of hours with fondness :eek:

I couldn't get used to the idea of shoving the stick forward to get the tail flying (was paranoid about over-cooking it and nosing over into the prop) and as for the take-off roll - :ugh:

After 5 hours was very comfortable with the whole idea, and was getting some superb 3-pointers. Then it all goes horribly wrong after a cracking landing when told to 'expedite vacate next left' so still going a bit too fast started to turn to exit and found the tail starting to overtake me := Managed to get it back - just.

Moral is, don't disengage your brain for even the merest second as it can go a bit wonky very quickly.

Chippie is a wonderful aircraft to fly. You will 'get it' quite quickly, just remember to use your legs/feet a lot. Re. the meandering, it can help to have a couple of notches of brake on - this should give you a bit more (easier) directional control whilst you get used to handling it on the ground and in the roll.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Keep those feet dancing and you'll soon get the hang of it. Lots of small movements rather than letting a swing develop.

After learning on trikes, it does take some getting used to, but all it needs is more concentration and care.

Keep at it and eventually you'll get the hang of it.

[LowNSlow]

You'll get used to it with practice. All taildraggers can and will bite, a perfect 3-pointer is never guaranteed especially if there are witnesses!!! :eek:

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi Modelman,

All taildraggers handle differently and some are more difficult to master than others. The easiest in my experience was the Tiger Moth followed by the Supercub. I learned on Auster J1 Autocrats, and they were definitely challenging with a pronounced tendency to bounce because of the rubber bungy suspension. All these aircraft were made somewhat easier to handle on the ground by reason of operating of grass airfields.

The Chipmunk is not one of the easiest. Taxiing, I found it to be like riding on a block of soap on a wet floor! The rather complex braking system didn't help. Chipmunks have hard tyres and are usually operated from metalled runways, this makes them very prone to deviating especially during takeoff.

My guess is that you, like most people nowadays, were probably trained on an American spam-can. These aircraft are flying family saloons; (the Pa28 in particular is an Austin Maxi with wings). The designers were trying to tempt non flyers into the air: the people who designed the Chipmunk were trying to provide a classroom for military pilots who really needed to become competent flyers.

At the end of the day, all that is needed is more time on type and you will have no trouble.

Have fun and good luck,

Broomstick

[Fg Off Max Stout]

Tailwheeling is definitely a 'riding a bike' or 'hovering a helicopter' skill. It's a nightmare to start with but one day it clicks and then you can do it without too much concious effort. Also noticably, your control inputs will go from coarse to very fine.

My top tips for the Chippy are:


Treat it with respect. It is a classic, historic, irreplaceable. As has been said, you are merely the custodian. Be gentle and look after it.
Weave the nose when taxiing. You CANNOT see from your 1130 to 1230 o/c in the ground attitude. Too many people have taxied into obstructions and damaged the aircraft. Set a couple of notches of brake so that you have differential braking at the limits of rudder travel. Likewise, weave the nose in the climb.
Open her up progressively and gently on T/O and you'll get no significant swing. Slamming the throttle open is unnecessary, rags the Gypsy Major. Directional control on T/O is good because of the rudder authority in the slipstream. Therefore for T/O brakes should be fully off ie application of full rudder does not apply any differential braking - you won't need it. If the crosswind is so sporty that you think you do, then maybe you should go flying another day.
On landing, with less rudder authority than takeoff, directional control can be more of a handfull. Set a couple of notches of brake as for taxiing. Not too much though.
A tailwheeler is more prone to bouncing on landing. Don't be shy to go around. If you bounce high or the bounces are increasing in size, go around otherwise you'll hit the ground hard.
The Chippy flies great aeros if you treat it gently. Nice wide gentle aerobatics are a treat. If you try to pull the wings off and rag it around at 4.5G all the time, you'll bleed of energy quickly and fatigue a vintage airframe. If you want to do that do it in something modern. Watch the RPM as it can easily be oversped in aeros and make sure the brakes are fully off as part of your HASELLs (brakes interfere with rudder movement, remember).
Cold carb air gives you an extra 3 hp to play with!
The Chippy glides beautifully. (Anyone know the L/D?) You have a lot of time during a PFL to get it right compared to many other types. Don't forget to warm the engine regularly.


That's all I can think of right now. Enjoy.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

On landing, with less rudder authority than takeoff, directional control can be more of a handfull. Set a couple of notches of brake as for taxiing. Not too much though.
------------------------------------

Don't do this! It limits rudder travel, and while you are learning (or at any time in a crosswind) you may well need full rudder. In the unlikely event you need assitance from the brakes during the landing (I can't rmember the last time I did - and I've been flying the Chippy as my regular mount for almsot 30 years) you can apply brake whe you need it. You'll already have full rudder on, so you'll get the appropriate brake just by easing the brake handle back (you can do this with the crook of the little finger of the left hand - it doesn't need much).

Why hasn't it a tailwheel lock? Because with only 145bhp on tap it doesn't need it. the small swing on T/O is easily contained by rudder.

Fear not - you will soon get used to controlling it with your feet. Eventually, it becomes automatic and you don't need to think about it.

I converted on to the Chippy straight after completing my PPL on C150s, with about 40 hours total time. I was ready for Chippy solo in about 3 hours, but 5 to 10 is more likely to be required these days when Chippys are a tad more valuable and more expensive to mend than they were back then!

SSD

[Fg Off Max Stout]

SSD and I will have to agree to differ there. The RAF Pilot's Notes state 'Brakes...As required' in the pre landing checks, which is not the same thing as 'Brakes...OFF'. It was RAF SOP to do as I described.

The reason being that if the aircraft (being directionally unstable on the ground) diverges to the point where you have full opposite rudder applied, and continues to turn while you've run out of rudder travel, then it will groundloop. Not good. If you have 2-3 notches of brake set, differential braking will come into effect as you reach the limits of rudder travel and should give you the extra authority to prevent loss of directional control. Ideally you shouldn't have to get anywhere near the limits of rudder travel, but as with most things in flying, you prepare for the non-ideal.

If you have too much brake set, then differential braking will apply with very little rudder input, or with more brake still, the brakes will be applied continuously. Both are obviously dangerous for landing.

[tigerbatics]

I agree. The best approach in the Chippy to a xwind landing is with the brakes set a notch or two prior to touchdown. I first flew a Chippy many years ago but that was my briefing and also the instruction in the Pilot's Notes. Experience showed it worked pretty well too.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I think we've been here before on Proon. With ANY brake set, you will NOT reach full rudder deflection - the brake will restrict it. That's why a vital pre-aerobatic check is 'BRAKES OFF', since otherwise you won't get full rudder and you might not recover from a spin.

Why would you want to set rudder for landing? 'Because the RAF says so' is not an acceptable answer. What's the reason? The RAF also say that T/O flap does not affect T/O performance either way. Having a couple of times departed short strips without flap in a Chippy, I can tell you what a load of bunkum that is! dH gave it 2 flap stages for a very good reason, but the RAF don't use stage 1.

With brake, you will not reach full rudder deflection should you need it - the brake will come on instead which might save a swing - but so might full rudder without the brake.

If you land with brakes off, you give yourself all the options; you have FULL rudder travel available should you need it. If you ground loop and even full rudder won't hold it, gently pulling back on the brake lever will apply the appropriate brake, and seasoned chippy pilots will drop their hand the few inches from the throttle in the latter stages of rollout to the brake lever 'just in case'.

So why land with brake applied and deny yourself full rudder authority? If you need it, it's still there if you land with BRAKES OFF should you need it? Why limit your options?

Edited to add, since another poster has said he does it too, that this practice is widely taught to novice Chippy pilots BECAUSE IT IS IN THE BOOK. It's in the book because that's what the RAF taught! It is self-perpetuating!

Think it through from first principles, and see if it really makes sense - like never using T/O flap and wiring the carb heat in 'Warm'.

SSD

[jabberwok]

If you have 2-3 notches of brake set, differential braking will come into effect as you reach the limits of rudder travel and should give you the extra authority to prevent loss of directional control.

I was taught this too but I started with 2 notches and moved up to three as experience increased. I was always concious that excess rudder would kick in brake and was wary that severe application would snap the aircraft into a ground loop in the opposite direction. At least you could feel the brake coming on.

On the Leopard Moth you don't have any choice - brake is automatically applied with increasing rudder travel. This isn't so nice as its early brakes can be a bit snatchy.

Keep at the practise - eventually all the hard work will pay off and you will start to enjoy yourself. Never let your concentration lapse for one second on take off or landing and never get overconfident. A taildragger will teach you more about pure flying than all your previous hours and will make you a better pilot.

[foxmoth]

Here we go again with the old couple of notches of brake argument for the Chippie - I have done both (taught in the RN using it) and can honestly say that it works either way. I would try without first (though actually I would go with what your instructor says) but if it does not work then try with. The important bit is the one that says do NOT do Aeros/spinning with any brake set.:eek:

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I was taught this too but I started with 2 notches and moved up to three as experience increased. I was always concious that excess rudder would kick in brake and was wary that severe application would snap the aircraft into a ground loop in the opposite direction. At least you could feel the brake coming on.
------------------------------------------------

Unbelievable! You were taught to land with two notches, and with experience YOU INCREASED IT? Despite the fact you were aware that hitting brake WILL tend to cause a swerve the wrong way whe you run out of the brake-limited rudder travel?

Try it with no brake. Then, if you need brake, you pull it on while full rudder is already applied, and you get a nice smooth pull in the correct direction which does the job. Rather than jamming it on without choice as you run out of rudder and hit brake, you g-e-n-t-l-y pull with the little finger of you left hand to give just the brake you need.

Finesse is what will work. Let's start thinking this stuff through, instead of flying by rote. These grand old aeroplanes desrve nothing less!

SSD

[Fg Off Max Stout]

'Because the RAF says so' is not an acceptable answer.
To give credit where it's due, the RAF did operate the Chipmunk professionally, continuously, for about half a century, God knows how many hours and has a wealth of operating experience that should carry some weight. In my experience of RAF Chippy operation, half flap was used, the carb heat was not wirelocked hot and brake was applied on landing as described.

If you land with brakes off, you give yourself all the options; you have FULL rudder travel available should you need it. If you ground loop and even full rudder won't hold it, gently pulling back on the brake lever will apply the appropriate brake
By then you've left it too late. The two notches of brake may restrict rudder travel slightly, but when on the ground, increases the yawing moment that you can apply to the aircraft and hence increases the control authority. The application of differential braking on all Chipmunks that I have flown has been progressive and not abrupt.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

By then you've left it too late. The two notches of brake may restrict rudder travel slightly, but when on the ground, increases the yawing moment that you can apply to the aircraft and hence increases the control authority.

No, you haven't left it too late. Your finger is around the lever and you can apply it at any time - and still get the increased yawing advantage. It goes like this:

Land, with brakes fully off. Once the tail is down, throttle closed, and the stick hard back, the left hand drops a few inches and the little finger is round the brake lever. You have unencumbered footwork to keep it straight. But, if you feel it going, despite full opposite rudder, you pull back gently with your left hand and you get instant smooth approriate brake which you can increase and decrease at leasure while holding full rudder.

That has to be better than restricted rudder movement, followed by a brake application you can't reduce without also reducing rudder.

With practice, you can also taxi without brakes, saving brake wear. Just use judicious pulls on the brake lever to augment rudder for tightish turns or turns against the weathercocking effect.


SSD

[tigerbatics]

Different people find different ways to achieve a particular result. It does not follow that only one way is right. I flew a fair number of hours in a Chippy and never had the slightest problem with the technique I was taught.

I then moved on to a Stampe which has braking at the extremes of rudder movement which is a similar situation to that provided by the Chippy with a couple of notches of brake. Full rudder on landing is required, if at all, at the end of the landing roll just where a bit of brake will assist.

However the important point is that no brake must be applied when spinning.

[High Wing Drifter]

Don't worry Modelman, I had the wing of the SuperCub scraping along the grass during my conversion :eek:

[Winco]

Modelman,

Well if nothing else, you will see that there is no hard and fast, right or wrong way with taildraggers. However, the overwhelming point is 'don't let up on the concentration - ever!!' because the one sure thing is that they will bite you in the behind if you you do!!

best of luck
The Winco

[modelman]

My instructor (25 years the owner/operator of said Chippie who is also an examiner and top bloke too) mentioned at the time some peoples penchant for slight brake set for taxying/takeoff/landing but he preferred to avoid it.
How do you set '2 notches' as in my 1 hour's experience,I seem to remember it didn't have any detents,only a little collar that was pushed down after firm pull for the application of the parking brake.

My thread certainly has stirred up some debate (not like Pprune:rolleyes:) but all interesting stuff-thanks all.

Really starting to think I need to decide my future direction in recreational flying-the Chippie is very appealing ( I've always like the look of Cubs as well-have built many well flying models of it).All the opening of cowlings, pulling ticklers,pumping primers right at the carb ( as opposed to plungers mysteriously connected to somewhere you can't see) adds greatly to the flying experience.

MM

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

modelman - sounds like you have a wise instructor who thinks things through and has the experience to know what works. There are detents on the brakes you can set using the collar on the lever, and it can be useful to have a couple set for taxying.

You will LOVE the Chippy. I've flown loads of types, and it's my favorite. I abandoned it for Yak 52 for a short while, but returned to the DHC 1.

SSD

[Dan Winterland]

The RAF Pilot's manual does mention setting notches of brake fo landing, but in my experience (over 1000hrs) of instructing on the Chippy with the RAF, it was never necessary. If it got to the point where it was, you were outside the crosswind limits!

But i often used a squeeze of brake with full rudder applied, but this is a technique for the experienced only.

[Studefather]

Brake/no Brake? Oh dear.
Tried it all ways and prefer 2-3 notches in any crosswind just to cover the period between deciding whether throttle is finished with and moving hand to the other handle.
However, cannot speak highly enough of leaving a little throttle on in the flare. More tail feather authority and less chance of arriving in a swing inducing state.
Stick with the Chipmunk, do some grass field stuff ( especially unmarked runways where you have no passing white markers to give old eyes a cue for height reference), learn to nail the speed on finals, settle a bounce with a bit of judicious throttle, beware you'll need more space to get out of than into a challenging strip, enjoy the quiet and the smell of warm oil as you do the post trip clean down......I'm a sad person!!!

[Contacttower]

I'm a sad person!!!

Perhaps, but there are a lot like you.

[J.A.F.O.]

This one was about Cubs but it shows that you're not alone.
Super Cubs (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=262931)

[formationfoto]

Personal opinion on tail wheel conversion go for something like the Supercub. The Chipmunk is a great aircraft and an excellent trainer but the Supercub is lighter and is more sprightly.

I am still learning on Chipmunks and love the character. Not going to enter the brake debate but the one I fly ise set up with just a little brake right at the extremes of rudder travel. This isnt right and on some cross wind take offs having brake applied when you least want it isnt good.

[Islander2]

Not going to enter the brake debate but the one I fly ise set up with just a little brake right at the extremes of rudder travel. This isnt right and on some cross wind take offs having brake applied when you least want it isnt good.I'm not going into this one again, either, having had a vigorous debate with SSD in another place!

However, I'd be very concerned with your Chipmunk to ensure that FULL rudder travel is available, despite the brakes being misadjusted. Attempting to recover from a spin is not the time to find out you haven't!.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

You HAVE to be able to move the Chippy rudder from stop to stop (brakes off, obviously) during the pre-flight checks. I once discovered that not to be the case, getting some brake near the stops.

I snagged the aeroplane, and the engineers fixed it pretty quickly.
formationfoto - that Chippy needs grounding 'till it's fixed. It's not safe to fly like that, and it can be fixed very simply and quickly.

Islander2 - SSD exists only here, not in any 'other place'.

SSD

[Miserlou]

Sorry to be so late in answering the original post.

Welcome to the wonderful world of conventional undercarriages.

The Chipmunk doesn't have a lockable tailwheel because it doesn't need one; only needs proper handling.

The reason you are finding it challenging is that the BASIC flying skills required were not sufficiently developed by the previous types you have flown.

All you need to master the aircraft is a change in mindset.
Two common questions asked by new taildragger pilots are 1, which way does it swing? and 2, how much rudder do you need?

The correct answers are, 1 It doesn't; not when I fly it, and 2, as much as it takes.

These answers may not be helpful initially but when you consider that no two take-offs or landings are the same but they are the only answers which can accurately fulfill all the possible situations and show your confidence.
The Chipmunk is a lovely aeroplane, by the way.

[bogopper]

Hi

I've just finished converting to tailwheel & done a full JAR PPL from microlight PPL on a Vans RV6. I already have 450+ hours on 3-axis, mostly Tecnam P92. It was excellent fun, my instructor was superb.

I've done 99% of the conversion on hard and I'm really happy about it. I have landed on grass a few times and I found it much easier, even with strong cross-winds. However, I don't have the apparent fear of hard runways and crosswinds of others in my club.

It took me a good 15-20 hours before I felt happy with the takeoffs and natural with the stick right back, as modelman commented. I went through a stage when I thought I would never nail it. I would meander off to the left wondering if there was ever enough rudder! Passing the exam second time round feels almost better than the first!!! :)

I've got no advice but stick with it, that first greaser after all the struggle is well worth it.

best wishes

Mark T

[Dan Winterland]

You have to remember that the pilot's notes are written by a chap (albeit a clever one - he's a test pilot) who has never flown the aircraft before and has limited time and a limited budget to get the book written. In the Chippy's case, the chap came up with the idea of using brake for landing in strong crosswinds and left it at that. I was involved with the Chippy on and off for about the last 10 years of it's life (excluding BBMF) in the RAF and in that time brake was never used for landing as an SOP despite being in the Pliot's Notes and the FRCs (checklists) for all of those years. The x-wind limit is 15 knts, full rudder was perfectly adquate to maintain straight in these conditions. However, with a gust, the technique which SSD advocates (a squeeze of brake) work wonders. Applying full rudder in a panic with the brakes set slightly will invariaby end up in a groundloop which is why we didn't.

Applying a couple of notches brake doesn't actaully restrict rudder movement. It will give he impression that movement is limited, because you are pressurising the brake cylinder and resistance is felt - firm presssure will pressurise the cylinder and full deflection will happen.

Here's a diagram of the brake system which should reveal all.

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb73/dbchippy/503.jpg

And now for a 'Ahhhh, De Havilland!' moment.

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb73/dbchippy/chippys.jpg

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Thanks for that, Dan. I'm glad you've confirmed that use of brakes, despite being in the POH, was not in SOPs in the RAF. It was worrying me that someting so obviously 'wrong' might be RAF practice despite their extensive experience on the aeroplane.

SSD