Is this you???

[odb]

Flying the Unfriendly skies (http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/364996/flying_the_unfriendly_skies_with_an.html)
The glamour.. The wages..Yeahhhhh, baby....

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/348464/exotic_destinations_and_fancy_drinks.html

[Check Airman]

"All of these numbers sound phenomenal. Well above minimum wage, they seem well set and able to afford the flight crew a chance at lavish homes, expensive cars and fine wines every night. But those numbers have restrictions that curb the income potential of all flight crews..."


Lots of it is right, but a few errors. For example, where in the world can you get "lavish homes, expensive cars and fine wines every night" at $26 an hour?.

[helimutt]

Bangalore?:E

[Nicholas49]

...and plenty of it is wrong.

Airline pilots ARE well paid. One look at the Terms and Endearment forum on this site will settle that. Research the average graduate starting salary in the UK and compare it with what easyJet pays a first officer.

There are factual inaccuracies regaring F/O's responsibilities, too. I suspect the journalist is unaware of the pilot flying / PNF concept.

[odb]

And are those graduates responsible for lives at FL370? DO they put their careers on the line every 6 months or a year? Do they sweat every medical, knowing they could end up at McDonalds if something is wrong? Gimme a break... How long have you been in aviation? And what end? Management?

[alibaba]

Has that graduate, re-mortgaged the house and spent nearly £100,000 on qualifications? That’s if they have a house of course…….

Also if the graduate loses their job for whatever multiple reasons that an average professional pilot can lose their job, will it put the wife/husband and kids on the street?

[jurassicjockey]

Not sure about the UK, but here in Canada, a first officer is NOT a recent graduate of a college or flying school. In most cases at one of the majors, the candidate probably has about ten years experience making sub-poverty wages in the hopes of making it to the majors and raking in a windfall salary of about $32,000 Canadian for the first two to three years. Finally after that, they start making some reasonable coin, but considering the requal requirements (probably the most stringent industry in the world for that) it's still marginal. In the meantime the college graduate has at least ten years of good salary under their belt. In most cases, the pilot will never catch up financially. So if you're going to make a comparison, let's try and keep some of the variables the same.

[fireflybob]

Airline pilots ARE well paid

Hahahahahaha!

And what do you mean by well paid? Compare pilot salaries to other professionals such as lawyers, doctors, surgeons etc.

[bzh]

in canada you can compare them to truck drivers, city bus drivers, garbage collector and more......not lawyers or doctors.....

[Superpilot]

You know sometimes I look at Canada's treatment of pilots and I wonder where it all went wrong?

[Check Airman]

Is it really that bad in Canada? Can somebody give a few examples please?

[Nicholas49]

fireflybob,

RE doctors and lawyers:

A GP is on something like £80k
If I'm not mistaken, that's more or less the salary of a fairly experienced Easyjet pilot (see terms and endearment forum)

A graduate trainee lawyer with a good firm? Start on £35k ish, which is an F/O's salary with many airlines.

I rest my case.

[Gary Lager]

Glad you;ve rested it, since that means we won't be hearing from you again :E

In your first post you said pilots were well paid compared to the average graduate starting salary.

In you next you compared pilots with lawyers & doctors.

Which is it to be? If you want to compare with average graduate starting salaries, look at what a pilot earns whilst he/she does his post-graduate flying training: £0. For more than a year. How does that compare to 'starting salaries' for graduates?

Lawyers starting on £35K - what extra qualifications will they have to have earned by that point? How much help/sponsorship/training will they have received from firms & companies along the way? Compare that to the experience of a young pilot.

Some doctors may earn about £80K, depending on which newspaper you read. Do you think they're overpaid? What if you're really ill and one saves your life with a insightful diagnosis or difficult operation, achievable only due to years of experience, constant training and supervision? Are they overpaid now?

Please note, all questions are rhetorical - I don't really care what you think.

[randomair]

"Please note, all questions are rhetorical - I don't really care what you think. "

Charming :}

[Nicholas49]

Gary Lager - just to pick you up on a couple of points.

There is no inconsistency in my threads. I mentioned doctors and lawyers only because the previous poster had drawn the parellel. The comparison is a good one and I stand by it.

The point I was making is that a highly qualified graduate from an excellent university with a good first job does not earn the same amount as a newly qualified F/O working for a good airline.

Of course I realise they get paid nothing while training. Guess what, students don't get paid while they're at university either.

I don't seem to remember saying doctors were overpaid. I also don't remember saying that airline pilot were OVERpaid, just that they were WELL paid, which is not the same thing.

Check out the terms and endearment forum and then go to prospects.ac.uk and look at the salary review. You'll find it interesting.

Alternatively, if you are a commercial pilot, try asking your passengers whether they think your salaries are low. You might get some interesting responses.

[Atlanta-Driver]

And just to tell how bad the salaries in the industry really are, Dont forget the Euro to Dollar exchange rate when you get paid in Dollars and live in the Eurozone. 1 Euro = 1.41350 Dollars. Meaning that I have taken a 35% paycut in 4 years.

[Mark1234]

And... whether you like it or not, you're still 'well paid' (paid better than the average).

Not that I don't think it's warranted, or deserved, nor do I begrudge it you, but a little perspective: Most graduate salaries are in the 20s (probably the lower half) for qualified, IT people with good skills. (in the UK, in UK pounds). And that's an industry that's gets the same 'you must be rich then' response as pilots do :)

[Flypuppy]

How many newly minted graduates have the following responsibilities:
The lives of say 100 people.
Company equipment that is valued at around $60 million.
Flight decisions that can save or cost the company thousands of dollars/euros per flight.
A minor mistake that gets the company on the evening news and years of good PR can be destroyed.


There is no inconsistency in my threads. I mentioned doctors and lawyers only because the previous poster had drawn the parellel. The comparison is a good one and I stand by it.


What a complete crock of poopoo. The comparison is worthless. If a doctor screws up he kills one person, goes home has a stiff G&T and only has his conscience to worry about. Shipton took decades to kill an equivalent passenger load of a 737. If a lawyer screws up no one dies. Ever.

If a pilot screws up he ends up on the slab in the morgue along with the people (s)he is responsible for.

How many lawyers have to regularly be out of bed on a dark and stormy February morning at 0430 to get to their office, endure idiotic security checks, be zapped with unknown levels of radiation and, depending on aircraftt type, breathe contaminated air?

How many doctors or lawyers regularly have to spend 16-18 days separated from their families?
How many lawyers have to pay for training courses so they can work the company's photocopier?
How many doctors have to pay to learn how to work the machines that go ping in hospitals?

[greywind]

A graduate trainee lawyer with a good firm? Start on £35k

My girlfriend who is applying for training contracts with law firms is being offered less than £20K by most firms.

[MrBernoulli]

Is she ugly, perhaps?

[Nyquist77]

My friends who work in UK Law...

Recent graduate trainee solicitor in London - £19k for criminal work mainly legal aid. 24 hour 365 day job because crime is 24 hours and you have to attend police stations to represent clients at all times of day and night

Recent graduate Trainee solicitor in Comercial Law starting wage of £27k in 2004. monday to friday 0830-1900. very occasional weekends when lots of work to catch up on. After five years the Commercial Lawyer has been told they could be on well over £100k.

[mucatron]

I think its particularly interesting that some here are suggesting that being a Pilot is somehow directly comparable to being a doctor or a lawyer?

Those two professions require typically 5 years at university at an extremely difficult level of technical and academic study, not to forget the effort required to get 5 A Grade A-levels or the financial burden of putting yourself through university, that's 25k+ if mummy and daddy aren't paying.

A Junior doctor gets 17-20k for the first two years and work 12hr shifts or worse. A lawyer typically gets the same (outside London) but with the promise of finance from their firm to cover bar exams, however some pay themselves. Typical biased pre-selection takes place in both professions and both require constant testing and training for the duration of their remaining career.

Don't get me wrong, being a pilot must be difficult but I believe the strain involved is to do with working hours, lack of structured home life and a significant initial investment by some.

[Nyquist77]

http://www.channel4.com/money/chat_vote_win/richometer/

I'm in the top 10% and yet I still feel broke.

[mucatron]

- and I resent every single one!

[Nyquist77]

ha ha LOL

I got 5,485,979 richer than me and one of them must be you mucatron! Everyone wants to earn more money. Probably Bill Gates feels pissed that some Arab dude is doing better than him. human condition.

[Re-Heat]

How many newly minted graduates have the following responsibilities:
The lives of say 100 people.
Company equipment that is valued at around $60 million.
Flight decisions that can save or cost the company thousands of dollars/euros per flight.
A minor mistake that gets the company on the evening news and years of good PR can be destroyed.

What a complete crock of poopoo. The comparison is worthless. If a doctor screws up he kills one person, goes home has a stiff G&T and only has his conscience to worry about. Shipton took decades to kill an equivalent passenger load of a 737. If a lawyer screws up no one dies. Ever.

If a pilot screws up he ends up on the slab in the morgue along with the people (s)he is responsible for.

How many lawyers have to regularly be out of bed on a dark and stormy February morning at 0430 to get to their office, endure idiotic security checks, be zapped with unknown levels of radiation and, depending on aircraftt type, breathe contaminated air?

How many doctors or lawyers regularly have to spend 16-18 days separated from their families?
How many lawyers have to pay for training courses so they can work the company's photocopier?
How many doctors have to pay to learn how to work the machines that go ping in hospitals?
A little disingenious Flypuppy - you don't mean to suggest that at every moment the aircraft is about to crash, and while certainly there is the possibility of certain actions causing the death of a planeload of punters, the same can be said of actions of management and non-flying staff in many roles, whose actions could ultimately cause deaths through cultural changes in an organisation or direct infringements of health and safety.

Your focus on the "death" factor has the implication that (a) you cannot price a life: untrue, as acturaries are able to do so daily, and (b) that the cost of a life is far more valuable than the cost of any other financial decision: this also is clearly untrue.

Many graduates have responsibility for:

Actions that directly effect hundreds of people
Access to company capital in the millions of pounds
Actions that could result in negative PR on the front pages


Consider leaking merger information, costing billions to the subjects of the news, the company whose employee leaked the information losing reputation etc.

How many lawyers have to regularly be out of bed on a dark and stormy February morning at 0430 to get to their office, endure idiotic security checks, be zapped with unknown levels of radiation and, depending on aircraftt type, breathe contaminated air?
Your passengers - those going to the meetings, paying your wages, working 16 hour days repeatedly, with no union coverage or rest days to look forward to. Quite a number of lawyers follow this lifestyle.

An attitude that simply goes down the road of "a pilot does x amount more than a graduate/doctor/lawyer" is so often a fallacy, and represents little more than ignorace of others' jobs.

The standard comeback of "well, it is choice of those in the city jobs" is also complete crock - we all made our choices to get where we are.

Some of my colleagues paid £70k plus for MBAs, paid for training courses to get a look-in at the interview, and work until 3am every day to succeed. A little respect for those who aren't sky gods like yourself is in order.

[Desert Diner]

That article is dated by at least 20-25 years.

It sounds very much of the regulated US airline industry of the early 80's.

Even then, most pilots came from the Air Force and Navy, complete with qualifications and military pension.

Fast forward into the 90's and a completely different picture emerged. Pilots racking up large debt going to flying school, then going to commuter airlines, flying to backwater destinations to rack up hours at an hourly rate that even McDonalds would beat. All for the hopes of getting enough hours to get hired by a major carrier and also hoping that it wouldn't go out of business.

Completely different picture.

[Wiggly Bob]

Flypuppy,
I used to be a navigation officer on this:
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa213/robhirst/Stolt-Confidence-17-July-2005.jpg
Comparable value to the aircraft in your example. Comparable responsiblity regarding if anything goes wrong - your up the swanny. However no passengers! My wage was comparible with that of a F/O's (assuming values banded around on here are correct). However I didn't have to coff up a penny for my training, license (uniform for those of you with LCC's). I imagine if you cost this out over say 35 years, using a cash flow forecast, (bearing in mind the £100,000 training costs up front) you'd find that you're considerbly out of pocket in comparison.
IMHO you guys are not overpaid for the level of responsibility and professionalism you possess.
I hate the graduate comparisons. Have you sen the type of sh*t people are studying nowadays? "David Beckham Studies". I rest my case.
Wiggly

[flyingbug]

OOOOhhhhhh
Natasha Kapinski studies, now they'd be worth paying for!!!!!!!!!
:}:}:}

[Check Airman]

How many doctors or lawyers regularly have to spend 16-18 days separated from their families?
How many lawyers have to pay for training courses so they can work the company's photocopier?
How many doctors have to pay to learn how to work the machines that go ping in hospitals?

That’s exactly why I wish people would stop bringing themselves and their careers down by paying for type ratings. To all the folks paying for their type ratings: PLEASE STOP!!

Before I continue, let me say that there are some cases where it is necessary to buy a type rating. Those who have families to support and bills to pay may need to do it. I know someone who had to do it because a medical condition prevented him from building PIC time as a commercial pilot. These are special cases and what follows does not apply. The following is for the guys (and girls) who grew up wanting to fly, and who are eager to get into that first jet.

The movies show pilots commanding a great deal of respect and living lavish lifestyles and taking buckets of money to the bank. We know that these days it’s quite the opposite. The economical hardship of the past few years has had a lot to do with it, but a lot of it is self inflicted. The media description of pilots was indeed accurate a number of years ago. Those guys did not attain that status by paying for type ratings. They made sure that the airlines recognized them as highly skilled professionals. As such, they were in demand, and their salaries and treatment reflected this. Nowadays, the airlines can do as they please with us, because they say “well, we can always find someone who will pay for his training if Captain John Brown refuses to accept the crap treatment we’re giving him.”

In any other field, if you want professional services, you have to pay big bucks. Think of what it costs to go see a medical specialist. Yes I understand that everyone wants to get into a jet as soon as possible, and it may work out to be a better investment right now to pay for the type rating than to be an instructor. That’s a very good reason to do it, but please look 20 to 30 years into the future. Today, we accept poor pay bad treatment from the airlines just to fly the jet that we’ve always wanted to fly. What’s going to happen when you finally get fed up with it? Do you think they’ll just say “OK, we’ll start paying and treating you better.”? No. They will simply tell you to leave if you don’t like it because they’ll find a new person to do the job.

Folks, nobody else in the airlines had to make the sacrifices or had to undergo they type of training that we do (save maybe the maintenance guys). Do not let the management degrade you. Remember, you can walk into the CEO’s office and do his job, but he can’t do yours.

Respect yourselves and your profession. Do not accept unsatisfactory working arrangements. Consider it a small sacrifice. Keep flying the props and building time. The jet job will come, and when it does come, it will be all you ever wanted.

[fireflybob]

Many graduates have responsibility for:
Actions that directly effect hundreds of people
Access to company capital in the millions of pounds
Actions that could result in negative PR on the front pages


I am sure that's true but pilots have to make decisions in "real time" - if things get a bit tough they cannot walk off and take a tea break or leave it till tomorrow!

I have every respect for those involved in all the professions. They have all sweated hard for their qualifications and ALL deserve to be well remunerated.

What I take issue with is the halluciantion that pilots are "well paid". Maybe some of them are but when you look at the terms and conditions that many pilots now have to work under I would argue that many are NOT "well paid".

They also have careers which can be terminated at the drop of a hat - you might fail your medical or fail to make the standards on the bi-annual checks which you are subject to for the whole of your career.

Many of my friends outside aviation seem to think that I earn circa £100,000 a year and just push a few buttons all day - I thoroughly enjoy my job as a pilot but would not recommend my children to enter the profession now!

[8846]

Ugly lawyers Mr Bernoulli?

Now that's funny but probably wholly unfounded...

Back to the topic...

I take home in the region of £2800 for spending a month driving a medium size jet around Europe. Been doing that for 9 years.

I work almost all of the time with people of the highest professional standards.

We all know the routine - we diligently go over and over the same sort of stuff day after day - constantly checking our 'sums' and generally being cautious, boring and conservative with all aspects of our work.

We produce repeatable and safe results time after time after time.


When I come home I have to deal with Doctors/Lawyers and lots of other so called professional people who often don't really deserve to be called such. There are of course good ones, but sometimes the level of professional application from all sorts of people who earn similar sums to me leaves me aghast.

As my experience has built up I have sometimes thought that I did what could be described as a routine and easy job. But when I interact with other professions I find so often that the simple things that I take for granted in myself are not replicated in other people in other jobs.

I am NOT perfect but I try to do the simple stuff very very well.

We allow ourselves to be beaten into the corner far too often - we ARE equivalent to the higher level of the employment spectrum. I know a lot of people from all walks of life - all very nice and clever guys and girls - but very few could do what our job requires these days - certainly on the basis of the evidence I see around me every day.

Oh - and it cost me £60k + a marriage + 10 years of hard work to get here.

Now, back to the subject of ugly lawyers..! :ok:

[8846]

The labour market basically rewards rarity of talent and to some extent desire.

The number of people who have the mental skills and application to make a successful stab at being a Doctor/Lawyer or Airline Pilot is limited. Therefore the cost of employing them goes up.

The number of people prepared to put theselves through the hell of self -funded ATPLs, Bar exams, Houseman years at hospital (permanantly on call for a week, PLUS a normal 10 hour day on the wards) is smaller still.

The work done in 'getting there' may inspire respect but it doesn't necesarily have to command high salaries.

I work with aspiring Olympic athletes in my spare time and the level of dedication that they apply would leave every Doctor/Lawyer or Airline Pilot open mouthed - and they are NOT doing it for the money - just the glory.
Very few will ever make any money from their sport (unlike football).

I love my job, I've worked hard to get it and I think I give good value for money.

[kennedy]

When I have discussed this topic, with members of our profession and with the others (usually when I have had to correct their wild assumptions on the amount in my pay cheque), I usually say that we pilots earn our whole yearly salary on one maybe two days when we have "one of those days" when the public, the company and the schedule demands that we fly when even birds are staying on the ground!

Then I look them in the eye and ask them if, assuming their other half, child, grandchild, etc was on that plane doing the CAT 3B app, to a contaminated RWY at max Xwind, at 2 in the morning having been on duty for 12 to 14 hours on my 4-6 sector, that the pilot is paid what he/she is worth!:* instead of the same wage (as an easyjet F/O aug2001 til June2004) as their plumber!

That usually shuts them up rather quickly!

[8846]

And that's a wrap!

Perfectly put...

[CargoOne]

Want something to compare? Here it is: a Nuclear Power Plant Operator job. Requires license. You are responsible for an asset valued more than all aircraft of major airline fleet together. Your mistake can kill immediately more people than crash of all aircraft of major airline. And then millions will suffer for many years after.
And by the way, millions cannot live without energy produced by your plant.

So this job is probably is more important than job done by 500 airline Captains. Anyone want to bet what is the typical salary for this position?

[SeenItAll]

Ahh. Homer Simpson's job.

[cfwake]

okay, simple question, meant not to irritate but to give some perspective:

who would swap their job driving whatever they do around the sky to search through somebody's guts, write a minerals lease, go to defend some shameless chav in court, teach people to drive or go out to afghanistan to get shot at by the taliban?

i'm willing to be that the majority of people in the industry would stick with their chosen career! no industry pays what its employees deserve all the time; what makes ours worth it is that, from what i have gathered from everyone that i have ever spoken to, is that once you break cloud and get the office view, no-one would want to swap it for an ikea desk and a metal filing cabinet.

my sis works hilarious hours in manchester for a law firm, and earns a really decent whack. do the firm get their money's worth? damn right. will the company i work for get their money's worth from me? of course they will, especially as a young and overly eager first officer. it happen everywhere, but i wouldn't have paid such a ridiculous amount of money to learn how to be a doctor, driving instructor, lawyer, barrister, nuclear powerplant technician, deck officer (Wiggly Bob i did try it with maersk, and the RN though) or, in fact, to go and do anything else.

except to be an astronaut. i'd probably have paid to train as an astronaut.

rather a tangent perhaps, but thought it would put some perspective on it to remind people that no-one is really paid above their job. i have never met anyone who gets paid too much for what they are asked to do, and everyone's job is vital in one way or another.

[cfwake]

also, check airman, i really wouldn't want to walk into a CEO's office and do his job! especially when everything goes t*ts and the police want to talk to the boss. then he really, really earns his salary.

[Re-Heat]

I am sure that's true but pilots have to make decisions in "real time" - if things get a bit tough they cannot walk off and take a tea break or leave it till tomorrow!
You're not the only one.

Look, it is clear that pay no longer reflects the idealised image, and the responsibilities - supply and demand have unfortunately forced it down - but the comparisons with other careers are utterly meaningless - one can pick apart strands of similarities and dissimilarities: just don't bother, and have some respect for others' careers too.

[Flypuppy]

My father used to work for Scottish Power so I asked him for any information about this.

Shift engineers who control the reactor are paid between GBP 23,500 to 36,500 while training

After successfully completing training, licenced engineers salary goes up to 52,000 pounds plus shift pay.

Your mistake can kill immediately more people than crash of all aircraft of major airline. And then millions will suffer for many years after.
European/US designed nuclear power plants are constructed in such a way that this scenario is impossible. Chernobyl type accidents are simply not possible, and it requires a considerable chain of events with a number of people involved to get even close to something dangerous. Three Mile Island was, from what I can understand, a system problem where the safety systems worked.

I will agree, however, that nuclear power plant engineers, watch officers on LNG tankers and train drivers are similar to pilots. They are all safety critical employees, responsible for high value equipment and people's lives.

My personal opinion is that if a company has to ask it's employees for charity in the form of paying for training, then they have got their sums wrong somewhere and do not deserve to be in business. Alternatively it could also be that they are simply cynically abusing their position of power, which allows them to put pressure on the workforce to reduce terms and conditions.

It then becomes important for the workforce to collectively join together and ensure a dialogue exists between management and themselves that preserves their T&Cs. Being in a union doesn't mean you immediately turn into an Arthur Scargill.

[Check Airman]

also, check airman, i really wouldn't want to walk into a CEO's office and do his job! especially when everything goes t*ts and the police want to talk to the boss. then he really, really earns his salary.

I wouldn't want a desk job either, but that's not the point. How often in a career does a CEO have "one of those days"? On the other hand, how often a year (or month for that matter, depending on the type of flying you do) do you have "one of those days" (plane doing the CAT 3B app, to a contaminated RWY at max Xwind, at 2 in the morning having been on duty for 12 to 14 hours on my 4-6 sector as Kennedy said). CEO's don't directly assume responsibility for peoples lives. Yes they may push engineers to get planes out of the hangars prematurely, and yes we may be forced to fly an airplane we'd rather not, but there are lots of people in the chain that can prevent the holes that the CEO put there from lining up. Maint. guys can refuse to sign off on a job, and we can refuse to accept the plane. Last of all, if we do accept the plane and the equipment fails, we are the absolute last line of defense in averting disaster.

Given some of the cost saving strategies CEO's impose/condone, we earn our pay many times more than the fellow behind the big desk. What about the last time you took extra fuel because you thought it was prudent, then ATC has you do the whole trip below optimum altitude, and you have to hold at your destination? Isn't that earning one's pay? What about the close calls where the 2 of you say "Whoa, that was close. Good thing the CAA inspector wasn't in the jumpseat."

Note also, when the cops walk into the CEO's office, he can legally get another job as a CEO. If we were imprisoned for actions taken on the flightdeck, our licences would be revoked before the trial was even over...

I'll say we "earn our paycheck" many times more than the CEO.

[CargoOne]

The biggest problem I see among pilots is disrespect to other professions. I have seen this for many years. Pilots tend to consider themselves Gods but this is far away from true and if you try walking in other shoes you will quickly realize that.

As correctly pointed by Flypuppy, nuclear power plant operators are paid comparable to airline pilot. However following your logic they should be paid at least 500 times better. And no plant is fail safe. Chernobyl was considered to be safe.... before it happened.

[Flypuppy]

However following your logic they should be paid at least 500 times better.I am not quite sure how you manage to get that interpretation out of what I have written... :confused: What I believe I was trying to say was that the groups of workers I mentioned are all comparable as they are safety critical employees, of that group the only ones who are regularly expected to fund their own training are the pilots.

People have a passion for flying, at least I know I do. Airlines know this and are willing to make (ab)use of this fact. They know there are people like me out there who would sell their granny to fly. What they don't reckon on is people like my wife who keep reminding me of the realities of being able to pay the mortgage and feed the kids.

The financial equation of becoming a self sponsored airline pilot does not make sense, even without paying for a type rating. There is no handsome return on investment - in a business sense - for the financial input. If you want that, put the money into a building society account or get a good investment agent and you will safely return 7-10% per annum and you still have your investment capital. That makes financial sense.

Without type rated pilots airlines would own some very expensive kerosine burning garden sheds. Self sponsored pilots have taken the initiative and risk on initial training. They have taken the burden of the first phase. That burden is a large one.

If airlines feel that the employees should also shoulder the burden of the type specific training then apply that rule to all departments in the airline. I think you would find many people leaving the IT department/accounting/HR/middle management if they were asked to pay for the training costs of their specialist knowledge.

Aviation is a weird and wacky world full of weird and wacky people, there are too many intangibles in this business, flying on silvery wings touching the face of God and all, that make it worth the heartache and misery of getting "over the wall". It just seems that the wall gets a wee bit higher every time the industry hits rough spell. T & C get eroded a bit more, productivity demands get higher. You just need to compare the productivity of a lo-co first officer today with that of say a first officer with BEA back in the early 1970s to see the difference.

As a quick aside, the RBMK reactor design used at Chernobyl was never considered a "safe" one by Western experts. The combination of design flaws inherent in the RBMK, piss poor training of the operators and woeful communications between different groups and shifts at the plant led to the disaster.

[anotherthing]

Reading this thread with interest, along with the thread on terms and endearment.

I'm an ATCO in the london TMA - I work bloody hard - usually for 80% of my shift (we have quiet times too), pilots have a lot of quiet time between take off and landing when its really a case of monitoring Ts and Ps (or FMS), especially long haul.

Pilots, in common with ATCOs, are highly trained. Pilots make decisions that have far reaching consequences, ATCOs do so too, often several times a minute for every minute spent on console. Pilots are responsible for the lives of a few hundred people a day, ATCOs are responsible for the lives of tens of thousands of people a day.

ATCOs tend to work a steady shift pattern however, pilots tend to fare much worse in this respect.

Pilots could end up dead as a result of a bad decision on their part or on an ATCOs part.

These are all valid statements, but some of them need quantifying; for example the one about pilots lives being on the line (made often by pilots in any discussion about pay).

Flying is still the safest form of transport - a taxi driver or truck driver or motorcycle courier is more likely to be killed whilst working than a professional airline pilot.

However, the point I want to make and not turn this into a p**sing contest is that we are well paid on the whole - a statement a colleague of mine uses is I think, quite apt.

"We are well paid, but not over paid"...

When I asked what he meant he said that he meant just that... when you look at some salaries then look at ours, we are actually well paid. However if you asked Joe Bloggs on the street, he may consider us to be overpaid, which I honestly think we are not, in fact I think we could easily get a good pay rise and still be considered to not be over paid.

The article this thread refers to is out in some instances but the salient point is that we are well paid, we receive a decent wage when considered as a black and white figure.

Despite the protestations on this thread about the fact that pilots self fund to get their license - I'm afraid it is really a moot point. Until people stop paying out the vast amounts of money they do, things will never change (and we all know that this will never happen).

The majority of ATCOS in the UK have not self funded - but believe me the boss of NATS wants us to go down that route. Again I cannot see this happening, not in NATS anyway. The amount of ATCOs we need to keep producing far outweighs the tiny amount of people who are willing to pay for the training.

Being a pilot is one of those things that kids grow up wanting to do - they see glamour and excitement - which is far from the truth in civil airline flying, however it is this misconception that means people will still self fund if they can.

Looking through all the posts pilots are on average, paid far more than ATCOs (UK speaking now). Pilots also (on average) progress much quicker up the pay scale, to a point beyond the top of ATCOs pay).

Surely these two professions are better to compare than a pilot and a doctor?

Pilots do work hard and on the rare time they have an emergency they really earn their crust.

However I would say that without a doubt that although ATCOs may not work as long hours as some pilots (especially lo-cost short haul), they work harder and are subject to more work related stress than pilots. Looking after one A/C as a pilot is pressure enough, looking after several at the same time is even more pressure.

Therefore I think that pilots should really think themselves lucky that they are being well paid to do a job they love - otherwise why do you pay so much money to get there?

Like everyone, I would like to earn more and I think I deserve more, but I am also a realist and do not think that I am better than someone in another profession.

[fireflybob]

Reminds me of the story of the company in USA (sorry cannot recall which one!) which pioneered the idea of bringing freight into a central hub (by air), distribute same and then send out to appropriate destinations. They were on expensive penalties if the freight arrived late and had an automated warehouse where the freight was sorted automatically.

In the middle of the night (a busy time) all the power goes done and the equipment stops working. They are running round like headless chickens trying to sort it out so they call the engineer in. He goes to a junction box opens it gets his screwdriver out and turns one screw and then everything starts working again. The owner of the business is very happy and asks the engineer how much he owes him "Ten thousand dollars!" replies the engineer. "Thats a lot" says the owner. "Well it would have cost you a lot more in penalties if I hadnt fixed it" The owner agrees to pay but asks for an itemised receipt which shows:-

a) Turning screw $1

b) Knowing which screw to turn $9,999

This is maybe the nature of many safety critical occupations/professions.

The biggest problem I see among pilots is disrespect to other professions. I have seen this for many years. Pilots tend to consider themselves Gods but this is far away from true and if you try walking in other shoes you will quickly realize that

Not true for this pilot, as already stated in a previous thread!

However, I do feel that the only ones who understand what the pilot's job feels like are pilots!

[Flypuppy]

The biggest problem I see among pilots is disrespect to other professions. I have seen this for many years. Pilots tend to consider themselves Gods but this is far away from true and if you try walking in other shoes you will quickly realize that


I am not sure where this perception is coming from. I don't see it on this thread and I can't say I have seen it with any pilots when we have had this discussion in the real world.

There will always be the insecure chiseller who will define themselves by their occupation - but that is true of any occupation.

Flying is still the safest form of transport - a taxi driver or truck driver or motorcycle courier is more likely to be killed whilst working than a professional airline pilot.
Flying is indeed safe, and why would that be? Without a doubt it is a team effort but it is the pilots who are the last line of defence when all the other failsafes have failed.

Therefore I think that pilots should really think themselves lucky that they are being well paid to do a job they love
Are we to understand that if you do a job you love you should be paid less for it? Here we have the nub of the issue. Too many people have this conception about being a pilot, from the average bloke in the street through to the CEO of an airline that T&Cs have been so heavily eroded and any strike action by pilots will be met with no sympathy from the travelling public. After all pilots all earn a six figure salary and have hot and cold running hosties to look after their every desire...

[Wiggly Bob]

As shown above, I am no pilot so cannot comment too much on this subject. From the outside looking in I can see that as long as certain sections of the aviation community continue to pay for their own licenses and agree to work for lower wages / safety conditions they will continue to devalue the position of pilot / fo / enigineer (if you still have them!) for everyone else. Not just a financial devalution but also that of Professionalism and self respect.

Wiggly

[anotherthing]

Fly puppy wrote:

Flying is indeed safe, and why would that be? Without a doubt it is a team effort but it is the pilots who are the last line of defence when all the other failsafes have failed.



true, if not somewhat melodramatic..... (btw, I flew military hardware before embarking on my second career, so I am not ignorant of what's involved).

Fly puppy, You are the last line of defence, you do have to put the A/C down in some horrendous conditions, but with modern A/C you have a fair bit of assistance. TCAS is more of a form of defence than the pilot IMHO - sure enough the pilot has to react, but in the case of a TCAS event that's all it is, a reaction - no decision making involved, merely a series of motor neurons responding to an aural and visual input... happens every day to humans in every walk of life (though without the implications). May sound harsh but when you are as highly trained as you guys are, such an action becomes an instinct.

So yes, you are correct, if not a tiny bit melodramatic. I guarantee that pilots operating in a busy complex environment would not walk away unscathed were it not for the ATCO - so who deserves more pay? The ATCO who makes hundreds of decisions an hour based on thousands of bits of dynamic information, or the pilot who through his or her action or questioning of a clearance, prevents a nasty; (or the conversly, the ATCO who steps in to stop a pilot from doing something he has not been cleared to do (doing it in error), and thus preventing a progression of a possible nasty)?

Yes you are the last line of defence, but do you know how many things have taken place around you to prevent it getting that far?

I believe that pilots and ATCOs should be paid comparably because as you said they are a team - I don't really think that where you are in the line of the safety process (either last line of defence or first) makes that much of a difference (I could argue - though I don't agree with it because of so many other variables, that ATCOs should be paid more because they have responsibility for many more lives and much more hardware than a single pilot) - I do not even begin to want to try to argue about other professions (even though I know of crane drivers who earn around £60k and nurses who earn mid £20k).


We are well paid, and you are correct; just because someone loves their jobs does not mean they should be paid any less, but it all comes down to market forces - and galling as it may seem to you, there are still lots of people out there who are willing to pay vast amounts of money to enter your profession....
I can't believe that they don't know what they are letting themselves in for with regards to pay or Ts and Cs, and therefore if they are willing to pay huge amounts of money, just to then claim they are underpaid, who is left looking foolish? The man who does a lesser paid job, but has still got savings intact or has not been saddled with huge debt, or the pilot who is unhappy with his or her lot?

[TACHO]

Fly puppy wrote:

Quote:
Flying is indeed safe, and why would that be? Without a doubt it is a team effort but it is the pilots who are the last line of defence when all the other failsafes have failed.

true, if not somewhat melodramatic


Personally don't think it is melodramatic at all, merely a statement of fact. The pilot is the last link in the chain, I am sure we have all read stories or covered the 'swiss cheese' theory in CRM courses etc...:8


Yes you are the last line of defence, but do you know how many things have taken place around you to prevent it getting that far

I have flown in uncontrolled airpsace, (busy) uncontrolled airspace, numerous times and have not come to any harm (talk 'bout tempting fate:}). That is not denying you guys do a fantastic job. However I feel you may only be considering the efficiency of your own native ATC when using it as a yardstick to judge pilot workload, input into the safety of the flight. Not all of the destinations I have frequented offer the same superb service that we get in Northern Europe. Have been to several places where clearances are taken with a large pinch of salt, where problems have been avoided not because of the controllers clearances but in spite of them. Anyway I am drifting a little here....

I consider myself averagely paid for the work that I do, agree completely with fireflybob's sentiments on 'knowing which screw to turn'. Often the pilot is not paid for what he does, but knowing what to do, I believe in this sense the pay is correct and just. I.E a 5 year F/O gets paid more than a brand new F/O becuase he has a greater knowledge!

To be completly honest those who are advocating that graduates are just as hard working as those who have gone through flying training are, for the most part, mistaken. Getting a degree these days is not hard to do at all. Have done it myself, worked moderately hard and got a pretty good grade, but could have worked harder. It seems these days a lot of employers (normally big corporates) are fairly uninterested in what your degree entailed, more what you did on a gap year (from people I know who work in the city, this normally involves going to Thailand/Australia etc... ona massive holiday). Compare that to self funding your own flying training and successfully completing a course....and then getting a job at the end of it, think pilots deserve the acclaim they get whether it is imagined or otherwise.

I believe that pilots and ATCOs should be paid comparably

Hehe.... you are the first non-pilot I have ever heard that suggests I should get a pay rise. :}

Happy landings all...

T

[Beefy_EMA]

I'm not a professional Pilot, a Doctor. a Lawyer or even an Accountant; nevertheless I am a professional in my field.
Early on in my career, I realised that supply/demand drove the cost of anything up and down, even your job. So I decided to go down unpopular routes that people didn't want to do, so I could demand more remuneration.

Just because you know you are highly trained, make life changing choices and you drive around expensive company toys, doesn't mean you can demand a high wage. If you are one in a million people that can do that job, the company employing you can replace you with someone else. If you are 1 in 10 and the other 9 have jobs, get ready to write your own salary checks.

Is this fair? It is totally unfair, infact, from a logical point of view it’s branching on plain stupidity.
This is a capitalist society we live in and supply/demand is the basic principle in Economics. (http://www.investopedia.com/university/economics/economics3.asp)

You can all moan about how valuable your job is and how many hours you work, spend time writing posts in trying proving that your job is better than someone else in another totally different professional field. (That fact that people do that really shows their professional character or lack of.)

How about you sit down, work out how many people are waiting for your job, this will help you work out your true monetary value.

Sh*tter... I know..

[TACHO]

How about you sit down, work out how many people are waiting for your job, this will help you work out your true monetary value.

Sh*tter... I know


I know that practically everyone I speak to (nearly always none aviation employed:hmm:) sees my job as very desirable. By that criteria then am I underpaid?

spend time writing posts in trying proving that your job is better than someone else

I know, regardless of the weather, that on any given day that I am working I will see the sunshine. Regardless of pay, time I have to get up in the morning or any other factors, that makes it one of the best jobs in the world for me:ok:.



Tacho

[CarltonBrowne the FO]

I am now about to complete my third jet type rating, after some nine years airline flying. I paid for my own licence, and have no issues about that. Other than the light aircraft ratings required for licence issue, I have never paid for a type rating. However, I have to admit, I have been luckier than some. There were times when I was tempted...
As a return on investment, I am unlikely ever to entirely recoup the money I have spent, and the earnings lost (not only during my training, but also during my time as a Flying Instructor). However, this was a trade I considered worthwhile. I enjoy my life every bit as much as my friends who are accountants, despite their earning in some cases around six times my current salary.
As for the respect issue, I consider both pilots and ATCOs the equal of the highest levels of other professions. The difference in pay between us (pilots and ATCOs) is not that great (maybe I've been mixing with too many ATCO1s?) and is perhaps justified less by the money pilots have spent, than by the relative insecurity of our jobs. Whether the outside world considers us professionals or not, we have our own standards, and as a group we keep improving them.

[SR71]

I'd like to know what it would take for someone to admit they were overpaid?

[Check Airman]

A few folks have suggested that pilots aren't as "professional" as doctors just because we didn't spend years in a classroom taking notes. The "$9,999 for knowing which screw to turn" illustrates why you are wrong. You go to a doctor and he tells you what's wrong. Here's the bill:

Listening to your ailments - $1
Knowing what drug to prescribe - $99


Same thing applies in aviation. Any clown knows we need to take fuel and stay above the terrain etc. But we should be paid the big bucks because we know HOW MUCH fuel to take and HOW TO AVOID the terrain. Slightly on tangent, I also think that we should be paid the moment we turn up for duty. In my opinion, preflight decisions on route, altitude, fuel, alternates and thrust derates are just as important as knowing when to turn to intercept the LOC and where to start the descent. Much of the reason flying is the safest form of transport is a direct result of the choices we make on the ground, in the dispatch office, while we're not getting paid.

[CargoOne]

Check Airman

But we should be paid the big bucks because we know HOW MUCH fuel to take and HOW TO AVOID the terrain. Slightly on tangent, I also think that we should be paid the moment we turn up for duty. In my opinion, preflight decisions on route, altitude, fuel, alternates and thrust derates are just as important as knowing when to turn to intercept the LOC and where to start the descent.

Just acting as devil advocate I would say that basically all flight planning and performance calculation computer systems will tell you about "how much fuel, route, altitude, fuel, alternates and thrust derates". And actually what you are doing at preflight is checking printouts agains latest weather and applying your previous route experience to decide whether the printout is correct or "let's uplift 700 USG more just for mum".

[meadowbank]

Listening to your ailments - $1
Knowing what drug to prescribe - $99
Out of interest, how much longer before I can follow a simple flow diagram of questions with Yes/No answers in a computer to arrive at an end-response such as "Go to Pharmacy and ask for 50 Bugakillin tablets, 2 to be taken twice a day"?
I hear General Practitioners in the UK are currently earning up to 3 times my captain's salary. If it's true, surely that's overpaid? ;)

[Maximum]

Basically it would appear those who aren't pilots are the ones implying we're overpaid. :ugh::ugh:

Well, what do they know about what our job is actually like?:rolleyes:

We know what we're worth and should fight for it. End of.

The one thing nearly everyone tends to ignore.......is that the job combines management with a high degree of a very specialised type of motor skill, requiring rapid interpretation of information provided by instruments and hand/eye co-ordination, carried out in a rapidly moving and potentially disorientating environment.

So if you must compare, then ship's Captains and surgeons are more likely to fit the bill to a certain extent, but comparisons are really not necessary.
We are what we are and we do what we do. Anyone with an once of common sense and empathy should be able to see that it's a highly skilled and extremely responsible occupation and deserves good remuneration.

[TACHO]

Pilots are considered blue-collar workers, i.e. they earn a living with their hands.......The doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc that you compare them to, are white collar workers, i.e. they earn a living with their heads

Obviously a well informed point of view....

[bnt]

pouring over the myriad of options in your itinerary...Eww! Please close your mouth, the drool is getting everywhere... :uhoh:

[SR71]

The 'professions' mentioned above are governed and overseen by professional bodies. A doctor or lawyer fouls things up or brings his profession into disrepute, he is brought before a committe of his peers who may disqualify or disbarr him or her, never to practice again.


Looking from the outside in, the GMC has got to be one of the most unprofessional, narcissistic bodies out there.

Self regulation?

A paradigm beyond reproach if ever there was one.

:rolleyes:

SR71 - BEng ACGI PhD MRAeS.....errrr, JAA ATPL

[Check Airman]

Just acting as devil advocate I would say that basically all flight planning and performance calculation computer systems will tell you about "how much fuel, route, altitude, fuel, alternates and thrust derates". And actually what you are doing at preflight is checking printouts agains latest weather and applying your previous route experience to decide whether the printout is correct or "let's uplift 700 USG more just for mum".

It's the "previous route experience" that should be bringing in the big bucks. That's exactly what I'm talking about. A doctor tan read a perf log and tell me how much fuel I should carry, but how many of us would trust a doctor to make a fuel decision? Likewise, will you trust your lawyer to decide a takeoff power setting for you? Hop not, cause he'll just go for whatever is on the paper, without considering any other factors.

Pilots are considered blue-collar workers, i.e. they earn a living with their hands.......The doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc that you compare them to, are white collar workers, i.e. they earn a living with their heads.

What about surgeons? Never hard of a procedure where he cuts somebody open by thinking about it hard enough. I guess he's blue collar too? I'll paraphrase an old saying "the superior pilot uses his superior judgment to keep himself out of situations where his superior skills are needed". That means we use our heads to keep us out of situations that require us to use both hands and both feet.

[Nicholas49]

Well said Check Airman.

Airline pilots ARE considered professionals by outsiders, regardless of whether they use their hands to do the job. It is quite ridiculous to suggest otherwise. Pilots are held in enormously high esteem by passengers.

When a passenger sitting at the back of a 777 hears Nigel's plummy pre-take off announcement, I doubt very much that he is thinking "wow, those pilots don't sound very professional. Could be a couple of blue collar workers for all I know."

As for being unionised, doctors, teachers and other professionals are members of unions too. The role of a professional union is of course different to that of the TUC, but being a member of a union does not mean you're not a professional.

[odb]

4 pages! Jeeze... I only wanted to slap a good read on you all great folks, and BAM! a heated discussion breaks out like a hockey game at a boxing match... Good points.... Long live the dream...

[tom775257]

Haha overpaid pilots.

I fly A320s as FO for an EU country flag carrier to the majority of major EU airports including LHR,LGW,MXP,FCO,MUC,FRA,MAD,BCN,ORY etc.etc. Adding to the fun I fly jets into Africa with nasty NDB only approaches and everywhere in between.

My entire basic wage this year previously was £7312.86 as of today. I made the same instructing PPl's on PA-28s for a year as I earned flying 160 pax in a 60 million dollar jet.

I'm going to have to get rid of my little 1.2litre car at the end of this month because I can't afford to own it. Back to traveling on the bus. :{

Time to get another career.

[cinnamon bun]

tom775257
Yes you should. Being 26 its now or never. Off you go.

[stator vane]

let's all say together---

"i am underpaid and everyone else is overpaid!"

that covers all the bases and annoys everyone.

[Check Airman]

Tom,

My eyes must be playing tricks, £7300 per YEAR? That's 14-15,000 USD. Surely that can't be right? I HOPE...?!?!?!?:confused:

[tom775257]

Check Airman,

Yes, that is correct for my basic wage this last year (my first year as an airline pilot). I will not mention the airline though. But yes, a poor wage indeed. Please no speculation about the company, just the advice to wannabes to go into the industry with your eyes open.

Thanks.

[Check Airman]

A number of companies pay their first year pilots a nominal wage. I think it's considered a probationary period. What is your expected wage for your second year, if you don't mind my asking?

[odb]

That actually sounds like a wage at some of the turbo prop carriers in the states.... Or at Gulfstream, where you pay to be a FO.....

[beatrix]

Now now guys - if the conditions, the pay, the (unsociable) hours, the lifestyle, the constantly waking up at 4am - no matter what timezone you find yourself in, the lack of drinks when you arrive, the SLF, the security, the rules etc etc etc are that bad - why don't you leave? make some space for people that DO want to do the job?

No.... i thought not ;)

Truth is, you all love it.. secretly, deep down in those frosted hearts, you couldn't walk away from it, and get a job teaching aviation in colleges, or mowing the grounds at the nearest golf course, or driving that white van/rubbish cart - even if the hours are as unsociable!

come on - admit it to everyone......... :ok:

I thought the article was quite cleverly written personally... well found!