Confusion over logging time...Again.

[Contacttower]

I've always found logging hours quite simple here in the UK. Any dual time with an instructor is logged P u/t, unless like whirly say's, he/she allows you to log P1 (in effect they were a passenger). Someone has to log P1 so this is ok in my book. I occassionally fly with an instructor friend. If it's an instructional flight then it's P u/t, but if we're just flying together then we decide who's P1 (even an instructor can be a passenger). Flights with an examiner for a test which is passed are be logged as P1/S and any solo flight, or flights in command are P1. Only one person can log P1, so your role during flights with fellow PPL's have to be agreed between yourselves. P2 and other logging is usually for commercial crew unless the aircraft is required to have two pilots and you are actually P2 (not many that PPL's can fly spring to mind but I know there are a few).



The above is from a thread last year on the subject and until today that is how I was logging things here in the UK. But I just bought a new logbook that claims to be JAR-OPS compliant and the instructions in the front on how to fill out the logbook are rather different from my old one. If I have understood correctly P/UT is replaced with Student PIC (even when the an instructor is on board) and the time is recorded both in the PIC and the Dual columns. I'm a bit confused about what has happened to PIC/US as well.

My question is although I've been logging time the UK way (as quoted at the top) should I be changing my ways and doing things the JAR-OPS way? (Personally I think the UK way is a more accurate representation of the truth and I prefer it)

I'm a JAA PPL holder in the UK and do most of my flying and training in the UK.

[High Wing Drifter]

JAR-OPS is for commercial operations so don't get hung up on that. So long as you are logging the details as required by the ANO then it doesn't matter if you use a Banana skin!

If you are flying with an instructor for training for a license, rating or differences (i.e. a subject that the FI is rated to teach) then you will be logging P.U/T. You will only be logging P1.S for full skills test passes. For solo flights you will be logging P1.

Your best bet is to review the introduction section on recording time in Section A, Appendix B of LASORS. It is all explained there: http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=90&appid=11&mode=detail&id=1591

[BackPacker]

then it doesn't matter if you use a Banana skin!

Well, if the CAA asks, you've got to be able to supply your log books for, what, five years back? Imagine the sight of the CAA employees of receiving a box with five years worth of banana peel in the mail, for them to check.

Also, the CAA advises you to make copies of the most recent pages before you mail them your logbook. After all, mail does get lost from time to time. Imagine the face of the guy at the local copy shop when you feed five years worth of banana peel through the copiers.

(You just made my day. Thanks.)

[dsandson]

hmmm... interesting... banana skins... hmm... :D

anyway, I had a wee read through it myself. And it made me think... not always wise. Now I currently fly an aircraft which the club charges by tacho time. As I read lasors, I can log the time from I start moving until the time the aircraft stops as my flight time.

If I understand it right, then if this is greater than the tacho time, its still legal for me to log it. Is that a fair assessment?

[wbryce]

a check flight:- is that still PU/T? your demonstrating your abilities to fly P1 and not undertaking any training...I logged one recently as PU/T and this thread got me thinking...

[BackPacker]

The tacho time is an indication of engine wear and in a sense, fuel consumption as well. It's also really hard to mess with. But it is not linear: a tacho runs faster as the engine runs faster. So technically you cannot use it for your logbook in any case. But it does make sense to use it as basis for the bill.

For your log book, indeed, you have to use the moment the aircraft moves (I think actually under its own power) for the purpose of taking off, to the moment it comes to a final stop.

A hobbs meter, connected to something that measures when the engine is running (eg. oil pressure) is more accurate and can be used to log time, as long as you move (a few centimeters) immediately after starting the engine, and shut down the engine immediately after stopping. But a hobbs meter can be connected to anything that has a switch, basically, so not every hobbs meter can be used for this purpose. There are hobbs meters that are just connected to the battery master (leading to situations where people fly with the electrics off, to save money) or hobbs meters that are connected to a pressure instrument in the pitot tube, so that the hobbs meter is only activated while actually flying.

As far as a check flight is concerned: It is my opinion that if it's a check flight required by the club or the insurance company, but not by the CAA/JAA, then you can log it as P1, regardless of whether there's an instructor or a designated pilot or monkey checking you out. But I do know that some people disagree. Ample proof of that on PPRuNe.

If it's the bi-annual proficiency check, then you have to log it like you would log a pre-PPL instruction flight, as "dual" or PIC/UT or whatever. After all, the CAA wants to see that you received one hour of training as part of the twelve hours, not?

[High Wing Drifter]

a check flight:- is that still PU/T? your demonstrating your abilities to fly P1 and not undertaking any training...I logged one recently as PU/T and this thread got me thinking...Well I don't see how it can be logged as PU/T, the same goes for all the other spurious check flights like cross channel. Either you are P1 or the instructor is. But there is no club or channel rating so the instructor cannot formally teach it, so it cannot be PU/T. Unless, as mentioned above you use it as you revalidation hour.
Well, if the CAA asks, you've got to be able to supply your log books for, what, five years back?Hmmm, didn't think of that. Not sure they would accept one's application for a CPL in a jar of formaldehyde either.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

For your log book, indeed, you have to use the moment the aircraft moves (I think actually under its own power) for the purpose of taking off, to the moment it comes to a final stop.

Yes. So you don't log taxiing to the fuel pump; but you do log taxiing to the hold then back again having decided that you didn't like the power check.

[BackPacker]

Yes. So you don't log taxiing to the fuel pump; but you do log taxiing to the hold then back again having decided that you didn't like the power check.

That's exactly why I have two 1st solos in my logbook (or rather - could have). Turned out to be a duff spark plug.

[Contacttower]

Well I don't see how it can be logged as PU/T, the same goes for all the other spurious check flights like cross channel. Either you are P1 or the instructor is. But there is no club or channel rating so the instructor cannot formally teach it, so it cannot be PU/T. Unless, as mentioned above you use it as you revalidation hour.



If I asked an instructor to give me some training, not for any licence or anything but just for practice in say PFLs or Spins that would still be P/UT would it not?

[High Wing Drifter]

I would guess that as PFLs, Spins, Aeros, etc are part of a CAA recognised syllabus and so it would be loggable as PUT. If they are not then by what measure are you receiving training rather than opinion?

I'm really referring to the requirement to be accompanied by an instructor not because you need it or because of JAR-FCL requirements, but due to the club/group/insurance requirements/rules.

Perhaps I'm taking LASORS too literally?

[BEagle]

Doesn't matter - it's still instruction so you are still the student and will still log it as P U/T.

[Contacttower]

Thanks BEagle, that's what I was expecting and hoping to here. Thank you to everyone for the replies.

When I was in the US last time I was told that if you had a Private Certificate (which I did) and a valid type rating (SEP) then all flights even if they were 'training flights' which in the UK would be P/UT could be logged as PIC. Apart from the apparent double standard (the instructor is also logging this as PIC) I was wondering how to reconcile the different ways of logging in different countries/systems in one logbook...do I just ignore the FAA way and just log as if I was in the UK? Or should I mix and match? Or should I simply buy a new logbook for flying done in America?

[dsandson]

The tacho time is an indication of engine wear and in a sense, fuel consumption as well. It's also really hard to mess with. But it is not linear: a tacho runs faster as the engine runs faster. So technically you cannot use it for your logbook in any case.

Thanks BackPacker, you make a fair point. Will be making an accurate record of start/stop times now in that case! All this because the hobbs meter is broken. Think this is the first time I can be happy about a duff piece of equipment!

[BackPacker]

I'll make matters a little more complicated for you.

- Engine start/stop times (assuming you move the aircraft immediately after/before) are used in your log book.
- Take off and landing times are technically used to calculate airframe hours, and are thus used to calculate when a 50/100 hour check is due.
- Tacho time is used to calculate engine wear.

At our club, we record engine start, take-off, landing and engine off, and we record the tach at the end of the trip. Obviously having verified the renter before us entered the correct tach at the end of his trip. So six numbers in total.

[High Wing Drifter]

Ah well. Five years on!!

http://www.pprune.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-64881.html

The Wheel of Prune.

[Contacttower]

Also another logging irritation, when the hobbs meter is used by a club all the times are in decimal- but my logbook is in hrs:mins. In the US they usually use the hobbs meter for personal logbooks as well...converting hobbs into minutes gives 12 minutes to each decimal place. So much for all my flights being rounded to the nearest 5 minutes.

[Slopey]

I don't see how you can get 12 minutes for each decimal place, surely that would be 6 minutes?

[englishal]

It is 6 minutes, not 12.....basic maths, 60 divided by 10 = 6 ;)

Apart from the apparent double standard (the instructor is also logging this as PIC) I was wondering how to reconcile the different ways of logging in different countries/systems in one logbook...do I just ignore the FAA way and just log as if I was in the UK? Or should I mix and match? Or should I simply buy a new logbook for flying done in America?

The FI logs "as flight instructor" and PIC , the "student" logs PIC and dual received.

Anyway, my way of doing things is that I log flights in N reg with FAA CFI's the FAA way, and flights in G reg with JAA FI's the CAA way. I consider my FAA ticket the "primary" ticket and my JAA one "secondary", and as long as I meet the various requirements for either authority it doesn't matter.

[tmmorris]

I think this question of 'it's only training if it's towards something the CAA gives you' is a red herring. When I finished my PPL I converted onto a PA28. That was definitely training - I thought so, the instructor thought so, and the club hiring to me definitely thought so. I logged it P/UT. But there's no PA28 rating - if I'd gone out and bought my own I would have been within my rights (though stupid) to have flown it straight off.

Tim

[S-Works]

if I'd gone out and bought my own I would have been within my rights (though stupid) to have flown it straight off.

Your own comment answers the question, if you think you have been stupid to fly a new type without some form of Instruction, weather it was legal or not you got Instruction and therefore you were PU/T.

I teach for fun, I am not an hours builder and after the first couple of thousand hours it becomes a pain keeping the logbook up to date. So I only log the P1 time when I am P1. If I am doing Insurance checks etc then I am happy for the student to be P1, if I am doing differences training then I am P1 and those differences could be anything from a tail-wheel on the chippy to a checkout for someone moving from a C152 to a PA28. I don't believe in the hours builders tricks of hour long flights moving between types, just sufficient time to be safe. Most people this is a few circuits.

I really don't understand the hang up with logging time, is it an ego thing that all your time in the air must be P1? I only ever look at my total time as I view every moment I am in the air as a learning experience.

[High Wing Drifter]

I thought so, the instructor thought so, and the club hiring to me definitely thought so. I logged it P/UT. But there's no PA28 ratingLASORS is quite specific, a conversion to a new type within a class with an authorised FI is PU/T for the student.

[Contacttower]

It is 6 minutes, not 12.....basic maths, 60 divided by 10 = 6


My mistake, how did I ever learn to fly with maths like that...? :E


is it an ego thing that all your time in the air must be P1?


The Americans seem to log everything as PIC, in fact PIC seems to mean who is at the controls under their system, rather than who is actually in command.

[Dave Gittins]

Was recently in the States and flying with an Instructor (who essentailly was there because he know the area, where the best sights were and what the proceedures were to get flight following, transit zones etc).

I logged P1, coz I wasn't receiving instruction and was the sole manipulator of the controls.

He logged P1 because he was the ultimate commander had everything gone wrong and he intervened to save us.

That is exactly the way the FAA decree it should be - two people can book P1 at the same time.

We had a lengthy discussion about what the rules say and apparently everybody had the same discussions we are having here. Eventually 3-4 years ago the FAA issued a precise and clear definition as above.

No arguments or repetetive (although interesting) threads.

[Them thar hills]

"for someone moving from a C152 to a PA28"
That's not Differences Training, thats just being talking ballast ! :)

[S-Works]

"for someone moving from a C152 to a PA28"
That's not Differences Training, thats just being talking ballast !

Yep! for 99% of the population it is indeed. There are some stories to tell on the 1%, like the guy recently who could not comprehend the "foot rests" also had the brakes on and insisting on landing with them very firmly applied.......

[Them thar hills]

I see, then how did he manage to taxi the B thing in the first place ?!!
I can't believe that a PPL worth his corn can't go from a C150 to a PA28 without all this fuss.
Going to tailwheel from tricycle is a whole new world and needs to be treat as such, now that can have illuminating moments for both parties.:)

[englishal]

It is amazing a new aeroplane ever gets developed. Heaven forbid having to move to a completely new aeroplane without "Differences training".

I guess the Airbus computer which runs the 380 sim can claim P1 then...:8

[High Wing Drifter]

Differences (turbo, pressurised, tailwheel, prop, gear, >140kts, etc) training is mandatory, but having an instructor convert you between different types within a class does not appear to be so and is not differences training.

Differences training, I presume, must be conducted by an instructor and will be logged as PUT. Converting to a type in a class need not be done by an instructor but if it is maybe logged at PUT.

[S-Works]

There is no legal reason why anyone who is current on SEP Class can't jump into another SEP and teach themself. I do it all the time when doing flight tests and when getting into single seaters. For a current pilot it does not present a problem.

For the low hours or non current or flying with a club moving to a new type is usually done with an Instructor and you would hope they would gain something from that experience so the conversion is invariably a PUT flight.

If you are joining a new group and are current, no reason for another group member not to check you out. However if you are not current perhaps having an Instructor who is trained to deal with the sort of problems that can arise from having a non current pilot on board makes more sense?

[tmmorris]

I converted myself to C152 at only about 150hrs total time - without any problems. I'd flown PA38 (similarly light) and C172 (similar systems) before, so it was no drama at all - and the club didn't require a check.

Tim

[BillieBob]

Slightly off topic but a couple of misconceptions need addressing.....having an instructor convert you between different types within a class does not appear to be so and is not differences trainingOnly true in the SEP class (but see below) - 'conversions' between different types in the MEP class require differences training and, within the SET and MET classes, type rating training may be required in some instances.Converting to a type in a class need not be done by an instructorOnly true within the SEP class. Mandatory differences training in the MEP class must be done by an instructor and signed in the logbook. Type Ratings within the SET and MET classes must be entered in the licence by the Authority.There is no legal reason why anyone who is current on SEP Class can't jump into another SEP and teach themself.Only true if mandatory differences training (e.g. Tailwheel, Turbocharging, VP prop, etc.) is not required.

Mandatory differences training must be logged as PUT

[S-Works]

yep, BillieBob you are right, but that was not what was under discussion.

[slim_slag]

I logged P1, coz I wasn't receiving instruction and was the sole manipulator of the controls.

He logged P1 because he was the ultimate commander had everything gone wrong and he intervened to save us.OK...
That is exactly the way the FAA decree it should be - two people can book P1 at the same time.Yes, sometimes, but that wasn't one of them, because you were not receiving instruction. Anyway, an old chestnut, well misunderstood, doubt anybody will find out. Logging PIC and acting as PIC are not the same.