How do civilan pilots view military pilots

[Research101]

I'm doing some research into how military pilots are viewed by the wider aviation community and vice versa. Any honest input is greatly appreciated.

[jabberwok]

Usually very momentarily and sometimes inverted. :}

[Chilli Monster]

Very good at what they do, but on the whole (there are always exceptions) not totally aware of what goes on outside the military.

[LH2]

Usually very momentarily and sometimes inverted.

I knew the answers to this thread were not going to disappoint me :E

[sternone]

Pilot's who look down on the GA community but they forget that GA pilot's are able to acutally PAY for their training ?

[chevvron]

GA pilots also have to pay mortgages; they don't get housing provided even if it is sub-standard; they don't have Officers/sergeants/ airmans messes to provide their meals either.

[Diddley Dee]

British Military Pilots..........Extremely good at what they do and I have never known any to be anti GA. Obviously they are Human & it takes all sorts. On the whole though I have always found them to be a great bunch of people.

Chevvers. Not sure of the point of your post but these days depending on ac type, a lot of the guys dont see much of their officers / sgts messes as they tend to be away a lot operating in not too pleasant conditions.

DD

RAF? Yes ..... Biased? No

[O27PMR]

They have my utmost respect! :cool:

I just regret not joining their ranks while I was still young enough...:mad:

PR

[Genghis the Engineer]

Very good at what they do, but on the whole (there are always exceptions) not totally aware of what goes on outside the military.

Very well put CM, although the converse is also perhaps true.

I'd also add that, particularly as I often fly close to "a certain military training airfield", it's always worth remembering that even if it's big, expensive, high powered, with roundels - it may still have a low hour student in it with very poor lookout skills.

G

[PompeyPaul]

Why is it called a "mess" ? I guess, because it's generally messy is to obvious an answer ?

[tmmorris]

As a civilian* who flies from a military flying club perhaps I have a good perspective on this... Yes, they do sometimes look down on the training of civilian PPLs. As an example, the local AEF takes a patronising attitude to the flying club constantly, even though the aircraft we fly are essentially identical and they are not allowed to conduct instrument flying. But.. this problem is confined to certain groups of military pilots (young fast jet pilots; old AEF ones) - the vast majority, especially the more experienced ones, are perfectly accepting of our presence.

Tim

*PS technically I am actually military personnel (VR(T) officer) but I don't think this puts me on the other side of the fence!

[PompeyPaul]

Lucky bar stewards that get the tax payer to pay for their flying. Our local plod helicopter is up burning £££££££ almost constantly.

Wish I could get the good people of Guildford to pay for me to fly here there and everywhere.

[Runaway Gun]

Please remember that military pilots also pay tax, and that they also pay for their training by way of a long Return of Service commitment. This often sees them flying in dangerous places for long periods of time, over countries full of people that hate them, and some of them don't come home. All in the name of looking after the rest of the taxpayers at home, and their interests.

[egbt]

From my limited experience of flying with ex-RAF fast jet pilots / QFI’s they are simply in a different league to civilian trained flying instructors in terms of teaching skills, aircraft handling, general airmanship and the confidence they inspire. Other PPL’s I know agree.

[Saab Dastard]

In the realm of aviation, RAF pilots have my respect, admiration and envy in roughly equal measure.

I very much doubt that the converse is true!

SD (PPL)

[aero junkie]

My point of view on military pilots - Well trained, they are respected, disciplined and get there arses kicked when they screw up:}

What I don't like about the airforce - Return of service, How its run "behind the scenes" parades the whole saluting stuff, uniform:yuk: etc etc

Oh and the fact our government keeps wasting money "upgrading" 40+ year old planes, doesn't bother buying new ones, and still hasn't brought replacements for the 30+ jets they sold years ago!:ugh::mad::=

Aero:E

[sternone]

What I don't like about the airforce - Return of service, How its run "behind the scenes" parades the whole saluting stuff, uniform etc etc

This i find is normal, since most of them are trained to follow orders without questions, that means kililng when it's ordered, without hesitations... all the behind the scenes stuff is absolutely needed for this purpose.

That's how Julius Ceasar did it, and many before him!! His book 'de bello gallico' is still one of my favorites :-)

[IO540]

I don't think one can fault UK military pilots.

The trouble starts when they become old codgers and get a job in the CAA. Then, they start treating people like they used to treat them in the RAF: ok, chaps, we have 533 applicants for this one fast jet training position, so hey let's do some serious sorting of men from the sheep!

This is OK in the RAF where they can run an outright war of attrition on the job applicants. And with the planes costing millions, they do need to be quite fussy.

Civil aviation doesn't work like that. One needs to adopt the opposite POV: is this chap good enough to fly, and if so we must allow him to.

[BEagle]

As an RAF QFI, I taught 'baby Bloggs' of both genders to fly the Bulldog at HM's expense. Mind you, they'd been through an intensive interview process first - but NO aptitude selection. In general, these University students were first rate folk - we still have reunions many years later. A few, though, one wouldn't entrust with captaincy of a wheelbarrow, let alone a bicycle - and they were soon asked to leave. But all our students had to meet very high standards; for example, every 28 days they had to do a check ride more demanding than a SEP Revalidation LPC.

BUT - and it is a BIG but, (except for mine) they were taught very little pilot navigation - even VFR - just lots and lots of General Handing and aerobatics. Even when we finally had the luxury of VOR/DME/ILS in the Bulldog and no longer had to rely on fixing position via VDF, we weren't supposed to teach them how to use it. I did - and sent off one of my girls to do a radio navex above OVC cloud, then come back for a PAR. Everyone of my QFI colleagues thought I was mad - but I trusted her and she came back with a big smile and masses of confidence in her abilities.

As a FI, I have to train whoever comes through the door with the money. Even though some have more cash than ability, they have to fly to a safe standard. Not to the 'max rate turn on the buffet nibble' standard we demanded from our UAS students, just safe enough not to get themselves or anyone else into trouble, or to risk the aeroplane.

Most PPL students just want to join the £100 cuppa club and take their girlfriend/boyfriend/son/daughter flying for fun. Some are more serious and want to work towards a CPL and an airline career. But ALL have to pay their own way and we need to remember that. We teach them far more navigation (VFR, then radio, then, if they wish, GPS) than I was ever supposed to teach my UAS students.

Although not much in the way of low level, aerobatics or formation flying, unfortunately. But even the RAF can't afford to teach that to UAS students these days......:rolleyes:

[strake]

Jealously. Teeth-grittingly, bright green-eyed, jealously....:)

And I hope they enjoy every single moment of their flying when training and have luck or their God with them when in harms way in the name of our country.

What I'd give for 30mins in a fast jet or a C130 "making progress", perhaps a touch low...

Unfortunately, I don't have curves....well, not in the right places anyway.

[camlobe]

Normally viewed as a dot growing increasingly quickly in my windscreen.

Actually, it isn't like the title at all.

For 18 years, I had the pleasure of being associated with the most professional pilots in the world, those of the Royal Air Force. For the last 11 years, I have been in a civilian enviornment, but still fraternise occasionally with RAF types as well. This background has allowed me to see both sides from the inside, and therefore I feel I can pass some small comment.

The vast majority of mil pilots are highly trained experts, regulary practicing their trade, and able to operate in the dark and IMC, often while coping with various distractions. A large number of them also fly privately, often in their own aircraft. Most of these guys are aware that the GA community only fly infrequently, and therefore the standards of RT and general airmanship are lower than those who fly regularly for a living, be it civil or military.

However, most of our mil pilots, while occasionay frustrated by low houred, low confidence, elderly, etc GA pilots, support those in the wider, non-professional aviation community (especialy if the civvies stay away from the LFA's and MATZ's). It must be borne in mind that many of the fast jets are moving over 300 miles an hour FASTER than the Cessna's, Piper's and similar utilised by the GA community. That is five miles a minute faster. Or if you prefer, one mile every 12 seconds FASTER than you. And that is if you are already doing 120 kts or two miles a minute.

Here in our quiet backwater area of unrestricted airspace, we have an RAF training base 10 nautical away. The airspace can be busy, and occasionally, a visiting USAF fast jet punches through our zone unannounced at 100 ft and 350 kts. But, we also have C130's, Red Arrows and many others call up and are welcomed through, as well as the SAR training helo's practicing here. You see, around here our community fully support our troops around the world. Not the politicians, you understand. Just the troops. There is no anomosity or envy. Just fellow aviators recognising the abilities, skills and commitment of our professional military pilots.
As one of the previously mentioned low houred, low capability GA pilots, I consider our military pilots generally are still the best in the world and, especialy nowadays, are far more aware of aviation outside the confined military circles. Whether this is due to the increasing numbers looking towards a future out of military uniform, I cannot say.

camlobe

[CirrusF]

I started flying on Bulldogs with UAS, and as Beagle said, we did a lot of aerobatics. I think I had about 60 hours of aeros, spins, stalls, PFLs, formation flying etc before we even started some nav. This certainly gave a very good basis in general handling for when I went on to do PPL then CPL/IR.

[funfly]

There is a fundemental difference here between military and GA pilots in that Military trainee pilots are young and filtered as educationally suitable for flight training. GA pilots are generally a lot more mature and take the decision themselves whether they are capable of flying.
I do however, have the perception that the military to some extent 'look down' on their GA colllegues. The actual flyers seem to be OK, it's the desk pilots that give you this impressionl
My own direct experience of the military has been on my visits to air bases for various training events. While the information offered is first class, I find myself very 'out of step' with the attitude, the rigid systems and a lifestyle which they seem to take very seriously - I am sure, they will defend this to the bitter end because I suppose that service life has to be regimented in order for the people in charge to have some control over their charges. But not the life for me:(
Funilly enough, as a pilot, I have found their Radio services very helpful and refreshing, almost as if the people are are not really 'service' at all:D

[Magp1e]

GA pilots also have to pay mortgages; they don't get housing provided even if it is sub-standard; they don't have Officers/sergeants/ airmans messes to provide their meals either.

the vast majority of Mil married Mil pilots i know own their own homes and pay mortgages. The reason housing is provided is because they are required to serve anywhere in the world at short notice.

The vast majority of Mil pilots are GA pilots aswell, when they're not away in "sunnier" climes".

[stiknruda]

I think that the average PPL - if such a beast exists, is (and I generalise, again) pretty short of practice averaging a handful of hours a year, enough to satisfy the low currency requirements of the licence.

The FJ pilot has a job to do, so the actual aircraft handling is rather second nature - the trick being on target on time or winning the fight.

I was lucky enough to spend time on a FJ Sqn earlier this year, and the briefing of the sorties was where the hard work started. Operating the jet as a weapons platform, was the tricky part of the job - the actual stick/throttle/operator interface was the easy bit.


IMHO!


Stik

1.4 hrs on the Jaguar

[gasax]

They are very good at what they do. They are intensively trained to do that job and have little idea of anything else. They are trained to believe in themselves and their team - so they tend to be a touch arrogant. They live and work in a pretty closed environment so their ideas of the world seem to be somewhat 'filtered'.

When they interact with GA all that tends to come through - add to that the general incompetence that often seems to accompany the armed services and it can be quite amusing.

We had a liason visit from the local top brass after over a years worth of complaining about them busting through our circuit. As they were leaving - after promising it would never happen again - a flight of Hawks (4 aircraft) flew up the runway at about 300 feet. If seems as they get older they learn how to be embarassed!

[Droopystop]

In my experience my view of military pilots varies according which of the forces they came from and the types they flew. I generally had bad experiences being a student to ex RAF types, excellent experiences of ex AAC types and hillarious experiences with ex Navy types.

All are highly professional. But that is not to say civillian pilots are less professional - the best pilot I know is civillian.

But more importantly is how was the ease of which a military person becomes de militarised.

At the end of the day they were all trained to do a job and live life a certain way. Generally civilians find this certain way peculiar. Some military types cling deparately to their old ways, some welcome civvy street with open arms.

So the question is more like how do I view my fellow aviators? Answer - differently.

[Croqueteer]

:)Been in both places and for what it's worth, here is my view. From the airline point of view, 15 years ago I would have said that the tosser/ace ratio was the same in airlines and the service, but nowadays, a lot of airline pilots just have not had the sheer handling training and experience of a service pilot, nor have they got the command experience or had the chance to scare themseves fartless. I also know a lot of private pilots with quite a few hours, a lot of command time and extras like aero comps, that could hold their own against most service pilots, so I would be of the opinion that the raw material is not much different service/civilian, but the RAF training counts for a lot. Mind, I have been told by several Aussie pilots that they are the best in the world.

[fernytickles]

On this side of the Atlantic, I find it varies considerably depending upon the individual. Some wear their military service on their sleeve, their car, their baseball cap, their t-shirts, their flightsuit, their...you name it, its on there.

Others, you wouldn't know unless they told you. I have the great pleasure of flying fairly regularily with a former T-38 instructor pilot, now airline pilot. He's great company and very rarely mentions what he did previously. His favourite fun is to scrounge as many flights in li'l ol' vintage aircraft as he can, and owns a couple himself.

[davidatter708]

Give me a couple of years and I'll tell you hopefully. Till then i respect them immensley and wish I could have a go. Hu cares if they think they are better than us its cause they r the fact they got there means they are good.
David

[Knight Paladin]

David - Might I respectfully suggest that you work on your spelling and grammar before applying for a career in military flying.

[Magp1e]

They are very good at what they do. They are intensively trained to do that job and have little idea of anything else. They are trained to believe in themselves and their team - so they tend to be a touch arrogant. They live and work in a pretty closed environment so their ideas of the world seem to be somewhat 'filtered'.
Detlete arrogant - insert confident. Delete filtered - insert focused


When they interact with GA all that tends to come through - add to that the general incompetence that often seems to accompany the armed services and it can be quite amusing.

General incompetence? All fast jet pilots are GA pilots, are all GA pilots fast jet capable?

We had a liason visit from the local top brass after over a years worth of complaining about them busting through our circuit. As they were leaving - after promising it would never happen again - a flight of Hawks (4 aircraft) flew up the runway at about 300 feet. If seems as they get older they learn how to be embarassed!

GA pilots infringe CTR's and level bust into the TMA on a daily basis but never promise it will never happen again.

Generally I believe that both parties understand that the other has different requirments; sharing the airspace taking into account each others needs.

[gasax]

Well said Magp1e - a perfect illustration of the military viewpoint.

We're the 'best of the best'. And don't anyone suggest otherwise!

[Knight Paladin]

We must have read different posts then mate! He pointed out that all pilots are human, and as such are eminently capable of making mistakes and busting busting zones/levels/low flying avoids, and tempered your somewhat prejudiced comments, hardly a display of gross arrogance!

The comment about FJ mates flying GA and vice versa is also true - in order to become a qualified FJ pilot he/she will have at some point been trained to fly a light aeroplane to a very high standard, and certainly been examined to a standard of handling skill and airmanship well above that expected in a PPL skills test. A GA pilot, on the other hand, has not had to prove his ability to operate a fast-jet at 420knots and 250ft to get where he is. And rightly so.

I'm not trying to point-score or wave my willy about, just point out that people who do something as a full time job would generally be expected to be better at it than someone doing it as a hobby. I find watching a professional doing their job is generally a very interesting experience, whether that be a professional aviator, car mechanic, supermarket shelf-stacker, or whatever - it's always interesting to see the product of training and eperience. I wish to take nothing away from GA - as far as I'm concerned the more people enjoying aviation the better. I see no reason to be as confrontational as you seem to be.

Out of interest - which strip do you operate from? Feel free to reply by PM if you want.

[Contacttower]

add to that the general incompetence that often seems to accompany the armed services and it can be quite amusing


I know what you mean. As it happens when I asked my CCF commander what he thought about me going into the RAF he did say: 'well...you're not really arrogant enough for FJ'; and that's coming from a RAF reserve Sq Ldr who's son flew harriers. My home airfield is 'invaded' from time to time, but I will always respect military pilots, the men and women on the ground who support the flying and the awesome hardware they use.

[tmmorris]

I disagree that all FJ pilots are GA pilots. Yes, all of them will have learned on Bulldog/Tutor/Chippy. But they did so under very regimented circumstances, with the support of a full ground crew.

Rather different from arriving at the club/farm strip early one summer morning, pulling the plane out of the hangar as the sun rises, pre-flighting, refuelling, pumping up a slightly flat tyre, clearing the bird's nest from the air intake, polishing the bugs off the windscreen, making a difficult call as to whether to take the downwind, downhill or the upwind, uphill takeoff; walking the strip to check for unexpected problems; deciding on a go/no-go point on the runway, &c &c.

Different skills; equally difficult; equally valid. Of course, the FJ mates put their lives on the line.

Tim

[Fg Off Max Stout]

ContactTower, next time you see your old CCF commander tell him to shove his career advice up his arse. His was a breathtakingly ignorant statement and I suggest he's maybe spent too much time watching Top Gun and not enough actually mixing with real military pilots. This arrogant, 'elite', attitude is seen far more often in weekend warrior, space cadet types, who throw on the RAF uniform and the 'Iceman' persona once a week than in real mil pilots who are generally pretty sound blokes, confident, competent and mostly quite down-to-earth. There are always exceptions but very few fit the stereotypes.

[tmmorris]

Doesn't say much about his view of his son, either!

Tim

[Knight Paladin]

Tim,

I definately see your point, and indeed we could cite many more examples of operational GA specifics with which most FJ chaps would be unfamiliar. However, a FJ pilot will definately possess the poling skills required to throw a light aeroplane around the sky (once he's overcome the probable ill-ease he feels at the rate the outside world is passing by...), and I suggest will also have the mindset and airmanship to recognise the need for many of the things you talk about. For example, the requirement for a comphensive pre-take off emergencies brief, tailored for the circumstances of the day, will at the very least make him think through some kind of go/no-go point if so required.

While he may not appreciate having to refuel his own aeroplane and clean the bugs away, it is hardly beyond the wit of man! A completely different form of flying, yes, but not one he'd necessarily be unable to cope with. Incidentally, when did you last walk the 'strip' at your normal haunt? :)

KP

[Flying Lawyer]

tmmorris says (FJ pilots and GA pilots) "Different skills; equally difficult; equally valid."
Interesting Profile. ;)
Your assertion might impress some of your CCF schoolboys but, if any of them know anything about FJ flying, they'll be stifling their sniggers whilst nodding respectfully.

I'm sorry if that seems harsh but, to anyone who actually knows anything about aviation, your claim displays a very over-inflated idea of the skills required to be a PPL and an ignorance of the exceptionally high standards required to qualify as, and then operate as, a military pilot. You're deluding yourself if you really believe the standard required to obtain a PPL is remotely comparable to the skills required even to successfully get through the rigorous selection/training/chopping process to earn military Wings.
Yes, all of them will have learned on Bulldog/Tutor/Chippy. But they did so under very regimented circumstances, with the support of a full ground crew. I've trained under Mil and civvy regimes; originally UAS (Chippy), then about eight years later did a PPL (fixed-wing) course and, much later, my PPL(H). The two are very different; one is far more demanding than the other.
The Mil training process was easier in some respects: The QFIs had been selected for CFS because of their skills, and worked to the CFS tried and tested method (second to none IMHO) and, within reason, there were no budget constraints so each stage was learnt thoroughly before moving to the next. On the other hand, the standards required by the RAF were much higher than for a PPL. Even if the QFI was to be generous in his assessment, weaknesses would be quickly flushed out in one of the regular check rides with the CFI. 'Good enough' simply didn't exist.
And that was at the lowest level. Squadron friends who went into the RAF found Cranwell, not surprisingly, far more demanding. Some, who'd seemed very promising at UAS level, were chopped; others, who'd lived and breathed to be FJ pilots, earned their Wings but didn't make it to fast jets. The PPL courses were a doddle in comparison; helicopters more demanding than fixed wing, but not excessively so.

To a greater or lesser extent, we are all proud of obtaining our PPL, but the reality is that many (most?) people competent at handling a car are capable of obtaining a PPL (fixed-wing). In contrast, most PPLs wouldn't be capable of qualifying as FJ pilots regardless of how much training they were given.
"making a difficult call as to whether to take the downwind, downhill or the upwind, uphill takeoff; walking the strip to check for unexpected problems; deciding on a go/no-go point on the runway, &c &c." Do you really believe such "difficult calls" :confused: made at leisure are "equally difficult; equally valid" compared with critical decisions FJ pilots have to make in an instant when operational flying at high speed and/or in hostile conditions?

I've referred to FJ pilots because you made the comparison. They are arguably the cream of the crop, but it would be a big mistake to under-estimate the skills required of other mil pilots.
How do the so-called 'difficult' calls to which you refer compare with the decisions which (for example) C130 pilots have to make when operating into and out of short strips in demanding and/or hostile conditions?
Do you really believe such decisions are "equally difficult; equally valid" compared with the decisions we make?
Do you really believe that the flying SAR pilots do, and the decisions they have to make, are "equally difficult; equally valid" compared with a PPL?

I've referred to decision-making because you did, but the ability to make a (correct) split second decision is only the first stage; the pilot then needs the skill to carry out his decision successfully.
Asserting that we PPLs simply have "different skills" which are "equally difficult" compared with military pilots may work with easily impressed CCF cadets, and may even work in some adult company, but I suggest you choose your audience carefully. :)

Over the past 30+ years, I've been fortunate to fly extensively with professional pilots (Mil and Civvy). I've also flown with some very experienced and competent PPLs but, generally, there is a significant gulf between professionals and us which some PPLs fail to appreciate: We fly aircraft; professionals operate them.
Professionals fly aircraft with the effortless ease with which most of us drive cars; professionals not only fly the aircraft but, at the same time, use them for operational purposes, often in extremely challenging conditions and under pressure.
With respect, to suggest that recreational flying requires "equally difficult" skills is absurd.



sternone
Pilot's who look down on the GA community but they forget that GA pilot's are able to acutally PAY for their training ? I've always thought it a mistake to judge people by their earnings/wealth.
Give me the company of Mil pilots any day rather than the types one sometimes encounters in the GA world who've made a lot of money (often in business) and seem to think their wealth gives them some sort of status.

FL

[Contacttower]

I was recently reading in some American flying magazine about a guy who was training to be a USAF pilot, he'd come quite a long way through the training but hadn't flown a 'GA type' for a long time. A friend of his asked if he could go flying with his 17 year old son who'd just got his licence in a C172. The son offered him the landing at the end and the guy nearly crashed! On top of that he then scraped the wing on the hanger as he was taxiing in.

Fg Off Max Stout you're probably right about my CCF commander, he was a bit like that. However I wasn't going to take his advice anyway...

[Tiger_mate]

The military don't get housing, they pay rent for it, and at a comparable rate to council rent. Likewise they pay for food, usually to a civilian catering company, and frequently nothing to be jealous of.
The more you fly, the better you get, regardless of who is paying for the fuel. Military aviators crash and die just the same as anybody else, the differance is that it is not always due to pilot error or a technical fault. We do get a ceremony on occasion:
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/scotreg/images/brize_repatriation2.jpg
My opinion FWIW is that the more you practice a skill, the better (most people) get at it. Experience cannot be taught, it has to be accumulated and includes many war stories along the way. Therefore any pilot be it civil or military who flies most days will be good at what he does. An individual who flies once every 3 months, well enough said really. But I hope that even these people recognise their own limitations and inexperience, and I have read threads here to that effect.

This is IMHO a silly thread, and if you visit the Mil Forum (as I have visited this one) you can witness at first hand the discontent prevalent throughout military aviation. Are we not all on the same side??

[youngskywalker]

I thought this thread was about 'what civvies think of mil?' ...it's degenerated into 'my pen#s is bigger than yours' as usual!
Like anything in life, I guess some people are just naturaly good at something and some are not, some PPL flyers are crap and some are gifted aviators that given the opportunity could quite easily have operated a FJ.

I respect all Pilot's, whether they fly a glider or a Fast jet, we all share something in common.

[Heliport]

youngskywalker
some PPL flyers are crap and some are gifted aviators that given the opportunity could quite easily have operated a FJ.
True, but that wasn't the question posed.

[youngskywalker]

Correct, but I answered it with my final sentence.

[Heliport]

I'm not going to disagree with your final sentence. :)

[Droopystop]

So Reasearch101 are you any the wiser?

In general I think we all respect the job the military pilots do, but since these people are individuals, some we would go to the pub with, others we wouldn't trust to take our granny home. But you get that in all walks of life.

Having had the pleasure of working with both civvy and mil pilots working in a mil type role, there really is nothing to choose between which system produces a better pilot. So those who want to wave their dicks about, put them away since while you have your pants down, you are in danger of talking through your bottom.

[tmmorris]

Flying Lawyer, I think I'll have to take most of that one on the chin. Your points are good ones, as far as they apply to the average PPL(A). And I've seen enough of the UAS training system to know that far higher standards apply.

I'm not sure that I accept your definition of GA, though, as synonymous with PPL(A) VFR bimbling. If you add in competitive aeros, medevac/organ transplant flights, SE single pilot IFR, aerial photography, helicopter charters and a few other bits and pieces which rarely make the evening news, it's a bit more difficult and unforgiving than you imply. In fact, the question asked what civilian pilots think of military ones, and might more usefully have been asked in one of the airline forums, since what we have descended into here is the usual slanging match about standards for the average spamcan driver on a Sunday afternoon.

And I don't at all accept that most people capable of driving a car are capable of getting a PPL. Yes, they could handle the aircraft. But the written exams and navigation are another ballgame.

And I utterly resent the implication that I use my PPL to pose to impressionable teenagers, by the way. On the contrary, it enables me to teach the cadet syllabus from a position of knowledge and understanding, rather than the rumour and second-hand misconceptions prevalent in most cadet units.

Tim

(PS if I walked the strip at my 'home' base I'd be arrested in seconds!)

[Contacttower]

And I utterly resent the implication that I use my PPL to pose to impressionable teenagers, by the way. On the contrary, it enables me to teach the cadet syllabus from a position of knowledge and understanding, rather than the rumour and second-hand misconceptions prevalent in most cadet units.



I agree with that, I was a F/Sgt in my CCF and having a PPL really helped teach the junior cadets more about flying.

[Say again s l o w l y]

I'll try and get back on topic amongst the ego's.

This civvy pilot has nothing but respect and an awful lot of jealousy for Mil. pilots.

Airline flying is a poor second best in comparison to flying something fast and pointy and the training regimes cannot be compared. Trying to compare PPL training with military training is really a bit laughable.

I am an FI, but the civilian training is very poor compared to what is meted out to those in Liz's flying club.

My biggest regret is having been born with rubbish eyesight, so that when I applied as a teenager I was only offered the potential of a desk job or a backseat.

I have many friends who fly things I only see as a dot in the screen and every day I wish I was one of them.

Oh well, I guess I'll have to put up with earning more and being home every night. (I'd trade it all in a second, even though I'm told I'm nuts by those in the know!)

[Nibbler]

I've total respect for Mil pilots whatever they fly. It's near impossible to get a seat in the first place let alone the hard basic training and then rigours of the flying training and all for about the same pay as a FO. Then your body and soul is at the beck and call at any time of the day or night for the next 12 years or more. Told where you have to go, which can be anywhere in the world, even in to combat with little or no notice and no compassion at all for your personal circumstances.

It's very much a community lifestyle environment in the services with quite different thinking at every level and in every role. You may be able to see why opinions, behaviour and attitudes may differ from those in civvy street and the lack of mutual understanding as a result.

I can honestly say I have encountered a great deal more arrogant 'up their own a:mad:s' people in the GA and Airline community than in any other walk of life. Money I suspect is the cause. As the MD of my own business, given the choice, I'd rather spend an evening in the local with a random group of services pilots than with a group of GA or Airline types any day.

Saying that I was a little miffed when my tug pilot and I had to ditch the line at 2.5k to avoid a Tornado [flown by a trainee and instructor] who came at us from my right at high speed. Fastest diving turn I've ever done in a glider at that height. :eek: He didn't see either of us, before or after we peeled off, which of course I believe....:ok:

[wombat13]

I fly from an airfield which is within a MATZ. As such I share airspace and ATC with military pilots. Very professional on both counts.

As for those forumites whinging about paying taxes to allow them to fly for "free"? What do you say we do? Send them down to the local flying school with a discount voucher and then send them to Helmand Province?

Get a grip.

[stellair]

What a stupid thread! How does the average paperboy view the average milkman...!? We all fly planes....some big some small, some fast some slow, some high some low, some are better than others, some are more tolerant of others.......don't mix up recreational GA flying with paid mil, paid commercial or paid GA flying. One is a lighthearted hobby while others are serious professions for serious (sometimes not) money........

[BackPacker]

I have great respect for mil aviators. As said, they do not fly a plane like I do. Instead, they operate a plane with seamless ease while using it as a platform to support a mission.

However...

Saying that I was a little miffed when my tug pilot and I had to ditch the line at 2.5k to avoid a Tornado [flown by a trainee and instructor] who came at us from my right at high speed. Fastest diving turn I've ever done in a glider at that height. He didn't see either of us, before or after we peeled off, which of course I believe...

I do believe that FJ aviators have a slightly different perspective on flight safety, perceived risks and acceptance of risks than we as GA/private citizens have. Obviously they are paid to take risks with their own lifes and aircraft, and have to train for that. But I get the feeling that sometimes they assume that others are willing to accept the same risks.

The example above, and other examples of mil pilots busting CTRs, ATZs, parachute jump areas, glider towing fields etc, all market on the maps and, if necessary, dutifully NOTAMed, are a testament to that. I also heard a story a while ago of a few F16s cruising along the Dutch coast, who reported themselves at 1000 feet southbound. A flying club college of mine was opposite track, northbound, at 1000 feet, so he told the ATC authority that he was descending to 500 feet for vertical separation. To his great surprise (to put it mildly), a few minutes later, the mil fighters passed underneath him. Now I don't know whether the F16s coordinated their descent with the ATC unit on UHF (although their initial call was on VHF), or whether they were able to track my college on primary radar (this is a no-transponder zone), or other mitigating circumstances, but at least my collegue was not very happy with this encounter.

Sometimes it's almost as if the military in general (not just aviation) has a "get out of jail free" card and are able to pull stunts like this under the pretext of "training" without having to think about consequences for themselves or others. Maybe because as military, particularly foreign military, they are somewhat shielded from the normal retribution mechanisms of authorities like the CAA?

[Knight Paladin]

Sorry chum, but you've just displayed a shocking lack of knowledge of the flight safety culture prevalent in military aviation. You would be only too aware of this if you were actually involved yourself, rather than making aspersions based on no first hand knowledge. My experiences of both sides have shown the flight safety systems and ethos in the miltary to be far more effective than those present in private flying. I think you'll also find that private flyers are responsible for far more zone/level busts than the military, and the systems in place to ensure military aviators are aware of all relevant NOTAMs are far more rigourous than for private flyers.

I can't speak for Dutch procedures, but relating the incident to UK ops, I can well understand what might have happened - although I am obviously very much guessing here. The F16s may well have reported "not above 1000ft", and, upon hearing of your colleague, descended lower in order to aid visual acquisition of him, by skylining him - it's far easier to see aircarft above the horizon than those below it. I can't recall ever getting a clearance to fly at 1000ft in the UK, but have many times been instructed to fly "NOT ABOVE 1000ft". Liek I say, that explanation is pure supposition on my part, but an educated guess.

[Fg Off Max Stout]

Backpacker, you are very wrong my friend.

Sometimes it's almost as if the military in general (not just aviation) has a "get out of jail free" card and are able to pull stunts like this under the pretext of "training" without having to think about consequences for themselves or others. Maybe because as military, particularly foreign military, they are somewhat shielded from the normal retribution mechanisms of authorities like the CAA?

It may not be the CAA carrying out the 'retribution' but believe it or not the legality and authorisation of military flying is very strictly enforced. It is not unknown for aircrew to be interviewed under caution by the RAF Police (who are dead keen to press charges and court martial pilots) purely on the basis of a civilian flying complaint (although mostly radar tapes or GPS evidence later proves the complaint to be unfounded). It has the potential to be career killing stuff - not something the average MATZ intruder has to worry about.

Incidentally, in a fast jet environment, 500ft was possibly the worst place your friend could have put himself and was almost certainly nibbling his legal limits.

[tmmorris]

Sorry, Max Stout, but intrusion into a MATZ is no offence at all. I'm not saying it's sensible, and in my opinion all MATZ should all be class E at least, but it's not a requirement to obtain a clearance or even be in two-way radio contact before entering a MATZ.

Tim

[S-Works]

As someone who spent more than a decade in the RAF including going through flight training but ending up in a different role I would quite categorically state that military aviators are the leaders and the Royal Air Force are the finest in the world. Yes there are egos in military aviation, you only have to meet many of them after they leave the mob to see this. However it is for a reason, these guys are not really just aviators, they are warriors flying an ariel combat platform, the aircraft is transport to the site of the mission, aviation skills are a pure reflex action second place to the combat role and this combat role is never to be under estimated.

There are plenty of private flyers out there myself included who fly and have access to fast jets. Being able to operate a FJ is minor compared to the ability to aviate, navigate, communicate and FIGHT.

Yes the mil have cock-ups they are still human, but a massive amount of attention is paid to safety and considering the operational and training requirements there are few incidents.

So how do I view military pilots? They are the finest in the world with egos to match. If I could have come close the standards they achieve I would probably not be posting as Bose-X................

[Runaway Gun]

OK, I think we've established that both 'sides' have excellent pilot and plonkers, and that some have not reached their true abilities. Maybe some day (for all).

Shall we start a new thread on Blondes vs Brunettes, Scots vs Welsh, Aussies vs Kiwis, Typhoons vs F22s, Implants vs Natural, VHF vs UHF, Summer vs Winter, Betamax vs VHS, Koran vs Bible, Britney vs Christina, Blue Angels vs Red Arrows, Kruger vs Blown flaps, Camisoles vs Slips, Skidding vs Slipping, RT Brevity vs Plain Language, or Gayness vs Mate Banter ??? :ugh:

[mark sicknote]

:ok:Not to the 'max rate turn on the buffet nibble' standard we demanded from our UAS students, just safe enough not to get themselves or anyone else into trouble, or to risk the aeroplane.

BEagle

Correct me if I am wrong here. Don't you have the option of "stepping out" if your aforementioned sortie goes South?

I had no such option when learning to fly in my 152. I'm now learning to really fly now that my abilities are more in line with my perceived abilities.

Best,

Sicknote :ok:

[Wessex Boy]

Having done both civvy and Military flying in my Yoof, then taking a long break before starting Civvy again, the 3 aspects of military flying that all GA pilots should adopt is:

1. Discipline, do it right every time, all the drills, all the manoeuvres, all the numbers, aim to get them perfect, if you can't, go practice.

2. Lookout, treat all other traffic as the enemy, maintain your spacial awareness

3. Practice a Major emergency on every flight, that way when the real thing happens, the immediate actions happen automatically giving you the capacity to think clearly about your flying and your next course of action.

In my view those are the 3 key things that separate the communities

[mark sicknote]

Amen to that Wessex

[pulse1]

At the moment I only know one military pilot and, to me, he is the same as he has always been, "a very naughty boy".:)

[PPRuNeUser0172]

but intrusion into a MATZ is no offence at all

Tim

If that sums up how you feel about entering a MATZ, then god help us. It might not be a requirement, but any GA puddle jumper who thinks that they are within the rules and therefore beyond reproach if they bimble through a MATZ unannounced then they are not fit to hold any licence

It would show a woeful lack of airmanship and arrogance

[S-Works]

but any GA puddle jumper

I refer my lords to the comment about military egos.........

[youngskywalker]

I'd be much more interested to know how military Pilot's view 'themselves' ?! :E

[GipsyMagpie]

I fly military and civil hardware so perhaps have a balanced view. I flew a civil bit of kit into a small puddle jumper airfield and was appalled by the standard of R/T. A military pilot would be crucified for such rubbish which I guess is the difference. Military pilots are under constant threat of being binned for being rubbish...not so for the civvie. My skills are better for doing both sorts of flying though.

[tmmorris]

Oh for heaven's sake, Dirty_Sanchez. Of course I know that flying into a MATZ is dangerous and poor airmanship. I am based in the middle of one, for f@@k's sake.

But it's not an offence, which I believe was the word I used. It's not illegal. It's not against the law. Mr Plod won't come after you for it.

There, is that clear?

Tim

[PPRuNeUser0172]

I refer my lords to the comment about military egos.........

Now now Bose, there is a difference between confidence and arrogance/ego, as I am sure you will know if you have done some flying training with the RAF. In fact, I am happy to say those with arrogance that outstripped their ability were successfully weeded out.

In some ways, private flying can be more cliquey (sp??) than mil flying IMHO so I guess it is just human nature for those who lack ability to make up for it by being overconfident. (dangerous in aviation don't you think)

As they say, pride comes before a fall.............and I hope you wont find a mil pilot (banter aside) who genuinely thinks they are superior to anyone who aviates for fun.

[scooter boy]

In answer to the original question...

"the red barrows!"

SB:E

[S-Works]

Now now Bose, there is a difference between confidence and arrogance/ego, as I am sure you will know if you have done some flying training with the RAF. In fact, I am happy to say those with arrogance that outstripped their ability were successfully weeded out.

In some ways, private flying can be more cliquey (sp??) than mil flying IMHO so I guess it is just human nature for those who lack ability to make up for it by being overconfident. (dangerous in aviation don't you think)

As they say, pride comes before a fall.............and I hope you wont find a mil pilot (banter aside) who genuinely thinks they are superior to anyone who aviates for fun.

Dirty Sanchez, You missed the point of my post, I have the utmost respect for you military flyers and know how ruthless the selection process is having failed it myself due to air sickness. I know that only the best make it to the front line, unfortunately to often they also know it......

However the ego comments revolves around the view by military flyers of the GA world. Your comment about GA puddle jumpers show either extreme arrogance looking down on GA hence my comment or a naive lack of understanding of the GA world.

Some of the finest pilots I have come across have been GA pilots. I am prepared to show respect for all elements of aviation. Perhaps you could start improving civvi/Mil relations by acknowledging that there are pros out there in GA as well.

[Tiger_mate]

Jet-jocks (pilots) drive Tonkas (Tornados) , Multi-Mates (multi engined pilots) drive Timmy's (TriStars) , Pongo's (Army) dont always smell, and Fish-heads (Navy) can be found aboard ship not swimming below it. Puddle Jumpers (GA) drive Cessnas, Pipers and a multitude of other light aircraft. Nigels (pilots) work for BA (British Airways) and I dare say we could start a whole new thread on 'name - associations' which only a PC tree hugging school teacher would object to. Oops, sorry teach!

Military ethos of every nation in the world, regardless of rank; or land / sea / air role operate in this way. You may not like it, but it is here to stay, and it has nothing to do with arrogance or ego, but much to do with the sensitivity of a receiver that takes for granted a good nights sleep whilst thousands defend his/her right for free speech.

"Rubber dog**** out of Honk Kong" nowadays is the least of our worries. I suspect (but do not know) that the term dates back to when flight was literally across fields (& puddles), so blame Cody & the Wright Brothers!

[S-Works]

Thank you for the lesson in Military lingo, however after 12 years commissioned I am fully aware of it and the military mindset behind. So lets not be so naive as to think this is a cultural communication issue. I have the benefit of seeing from both side of the fence.

[PPRuNeUser0172]

Your comment about GA puddle jumpers show either extreme arrogance looking down on GA hence my comment or a naive lack of understanding of the GA world.


Disagree bose, 'puddle jumper' is merely slang and in not meant to be derogatory, no more so than fast-jet jock, crab, pongo, fishhead, truckie mate......etc etc. I think you are being a little oversensitive.

Regards

[gasax]

The answer is that civil pilts cannot give their opinions without mil or ex-mil types defending or setting the agenda.

The regimes are very different - but those differences are telling - If I as a civil piliot operated to mil rules then I would drive a horse and cart through the ANO. From my view that means their perception of risk management is so different that they should not operate in the same airspace. This is largely what happen in much of the rest of Europe but not here.

The pilots - very good - highly trained and motivated. Exactly the sort of people that insurance companies load very heavily for cars....

The military create a comprehensive framework to try and control this - but people who are trained to fight must be self confident - even arrogant!

Should they wargame amongst GA traffic - I don't think so. To misquote Iceman - you're dangerous - you should n't be in my airspace

[WorkingHard]

DS - you said "bimble through a MATZ unannounced then they are not fit to hold any licence"
Do you hold the same view of military pilots busting and ATZ or CAS at several hundred knots, because occasionally they do and I have not heard of one yet being permanently grounded. I am not saying they should be of course just seeking your views about the apposite side of the coin.

[Pontius Navigator]

Correct me if I am wrong here. Don't you have the option of "stepping out" if your aforementioned sortie goes South?

You are of course refering to an Irvin letdown. I believe this option has been used after a mid-air and I think successfully (vague memory) but unassisted escapes are pretty rare.

I am not aware of a large number of GA or Mil pilots trainee spearing in but there would always be the tendency to stick with it trying to recover and possibly too long. There is plenty of evidence of this with the Martin Baker let down where escape had been initiated outside the envelope.

I suppose one analogy might be the GA pilot driving a car without a seat belt. Would you fly on the edge because you had a parachute? I doubt it, not in training anyway. If flying to the extent that the parachute insurance policy might be needed would mean a significant (just one) trainer crashing when we cannot afford it we would not!

[BluntM8]

Should they wargame amongst GA traffic - I don't think so. To misquote Iceman - you're dangerous - you shouldn't be in my airspace.

Your airspace? Wargame? F*ck off. I just cannot get over how arrogant that statement is.

"We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

Orwell said that. He probably realised how much effort those "rough men" went to in order to free up a bit of class G for you to puddle jump through.

I'm not going to dignify the rest of your post with a response. :yuk:

Do you hold the same view of military pilots busting and ATZ or CAS at several hundred knots, because occasionally they do and I have not heard of one yet being permanently grounded.

Well, I have - several people I know have been chopped for just such a mistake. Good honest blokes who have gone to work in the morning intending to do their best who have made an honest mistake and lost their career over that, or any other reason. No doubt they gave their best efforts but it wasn't enough. That's just one of the pressures of military flying - you can be out of a job very quickly.

To the outsider military flying can often appear irresistable fun. It can be, at times, and that is one of the rewards. Just don't forget that with the reward comes great responsibility. Most military aircrew respect civilian pilots and have met excellent aviators from both sides of the fence. There are occasional bad eggs - on both sides - but they are not typical. All I would ask is that the GA community remember the enormous pressures of military flying. It is a job, and one in which you are often under the hanging blade.

There is an adage; "It's better to be down here wishing you were up there, rather than the other way around." One day, that military crew might not have the luxury of that choice.

Blunty

[youngskywalker]

True, but they gave up that choice when they presented themselves to the career office! I've lost friends civilian flying, they went to the airport that day wanting to do the best they could, full of motivation and good airmanship skills and for various reasons they were unlucky.

This is a rather pointless thread where no one answer or view point is more correct than the other. Let's just agree that we all love aeroplanes and we all love to fly and just try to respect all aviators regardless if civil or mil.

[Knight Paladin]

Bose - After your time in uniform you really shouldn't be getting your knickers in such a twist over the phrase "puddle jumper", and should be well aware that it isn't intended as an insult. Banter, maybe, but then other aircraft types/squadrons/services also come in for such. Or did bluntydom wipe out your perception of banter?

Gasax - Still interested to hear whereabouts you're based. Insch? I too am not going to justify your last post with a response - other than to say that if anyone's "dangerous" and shouldn't be allowed in Class G, than the PPL'er on a bimble (who will almost certainly be less current, less supervised, and less well trained than his military counterpart) is probably a better candidate. NOT saying that PPL flying should be banned, far from it, just pointing out the idiocy of your last comment.

[S-Works]

I am not in a twist about anything. Merely remarking that I know very well how the military mind works and am perfectly capable of interpreting when banter is being used to demean. Same as I take no offence being referred to as a blunty, after all without us the cone heads would not have had any mounts to show off in......

As I pointed out I have the greatest of respect for military pilots, I know how tough is it to get to front line. I merely pointing out that the average military pilot is detached from reality by and large and assuming that a GA pilot by nature is automatically less current and under trained is very arrogant/naive.
So going back to my original comment............ Lets all show a bit of respect for each other.

[Knight Paladin]

I fly puddlejumpers as well as the day job - why would I demean myself?

[S-Works]

Only someone who's ego had been damaged would continue to argue on about how they had no ego to damage. :ok:

I have already said I have the utmost respect for the mil. I think enough has been said now on this subject.

[GeorgEGNT]

They have my respect completley great bunch of guys the ones I know. I was speaking to a tornado pilot after he'd landed at Newcastle with engine trouble and we got into what I wanted to do, I said I wanted to join the airlines and he was very quick to reply with "you wana be a bus driver then?" lol I've always enjoyed the banter between different types of pilots am I the only one ? theres always been that friendly rivalry and I love it, helicopter pilots - fixed wing , frieght dogs - airline pilots, civilian and military pilots and so on its brilliant.

[GeorgEGNT]

Tbh imo any type of aviator from C152 pilots to Jaguar pilots to 747 pilots should be respected on the same level purely because they have achived something massive, earning their wings, this is something that not many people do. I mean ... look at the amount of PPL holders in the UK atm I think its roughly 25,000 (please correct me if I'm wrong) thats not alot, any pilot in the world has achieved masses and that should all be respected.

[Wessex Boy]

I got chopped from flying even though I consistently scored the highest on my crewman course due to my attitude and behaviour, I was young and had no sense.
There were 5 of us and there were 2 x Chinook Postings, 2 x Puma and 1 x Wessex at Aldegrove for in-theatre training. I was allocated to Aldegrove and started my Ireland-specific training but 2 days before graduation I was hauled in front of the Crewman Leader and told that even if I passed the Final Handling Test, he couldn't pass me because of my 'Personal Qualities'.
I was put on review, hated my new instructor, and my confidence & ability disappeared, I was chopped and spent 3 months at Brampton in Support Command PhysEd before leaving.

My confidence was so dented I also never flew GA again until a family near-tragedy last year woke me up and I decided to start again, 17 years on.

My point is, that to succeed as a Military Flyer you need the ability, discipline, character and attitude, otherwise you are discovered and weeded out.

[XL319]

GeorgEGNT ...its just a shame Newcastle handling agents dont always treat every pilot on an equal footing and with respect especially if they have Multi's flying in and you are in a mesely C152. But there still quick to take your money for a service which to be frank dosent justify the fee.

[GeorgEGNT]

XL319 ... Completley agree with you PA28 holding at foxtrot ready for departure, you literally won't go until there zone is completley empty its a disgrace I think. I once orbited for 25 mins whilst 6 aircraft took off (backtracking down to 25 as taxiway D was being resurfaced) and 4 aircraft landed. This resulted in me being 20 mins over my hour thus paying £44 extra and they still took my £18 off me for that. They even have the cheek sometimes to say over the radio "Golf India Fox very sorry for your wait we'll get you in as soon as we can" it just irritates me lol especially when I'm orbiting a mile or 2 away and could be landed and vacated in 2/3 mins MAX and the nearest airline is on base 10 miles away.

[Dan Winterland]

Just looked at this thread for the first time and there's been a bit of creep. Seems to have slewed into the 'Who's the better pilot' type of arguement which is not what the original question was.

As someone who was a military pilot and QFI, instructed at a flying club and is now an airline pilot (and used to fly rubber dog sh!t out of Hong Kong. It's not a bad job - honest!), I can state that reaction to military pilots from civilian ones covers the whole spectrum, from levels of genuine interest, through ambivalence to general hostility - probably resulting from jealousy. This is what a psycologist would probably expect due to a whole range of factors, the main one being personalities.

From my experience, pilots tend to have personalities!

[Final 3 Greens]

This is what a psycologist would probably expect due to a whole range of factors, the main one being personalities.

I would have thought that experience would be just as strong a driver as personality.

My experience with military pilots has been good, the ones I have met have been courteous, professional in attitude and socially skilled.

However, if I had met arrogant ones.....

[BEagle]

When, like Dan, I used to fly military 4 jets as well as instructing on GA Puddlejumpers, I often noticed how differently I was treated by mil ATC when flying each type.

Being snapped at by some vinegar-bitch and told not to enter 'her' MATZ in a PA28 as it was 'very busy' with AEF and UAS flying was absurd - when I later flew an ILS there in a VC10, there was no such problem.....

The 5 mile MATZ is an anachronism. If Exeter and Humberside airports can survive without anything more than an ATZ, why on earth do places like Benson (which do NOT operate fast aircraft) need them?

[tmmorris]

Being snapped at by some vinegar-bitch and told not to enter 'her' MATZ in a PA28 as it was 'very busy' with AEF and UAS flying was absurd - when I later flew an ILS there in a VC10, there was no such problem.....


especially when the place you are likely to hit one - where they do their GH work - is outside the MATZ anyway...

And as I said above, the MATZ is a pointless and dangerous thing because mil controllers think it's CAS and act accordingly, and civilians think it doesn't matter because it's not CAS. I think it's an accident waiting to happen, though I don't suppose there have been any actual accidents.

Tim

[Final 3 Greens]

civilians think it doesn't matter because it's not CAS :confused::confused::confused:

I had it drummed into me during PPL training that the point of a MATZ was to accomodate military aircraft and high energy manouevres - there be dragons.

Not controlled airspace - but treat with respect and care.

I really hope that other civvy pilots have the same view.

[tmmorris]

I hope so too, but operating from inside one has taught me otherwise. We frequently get people bimbling through regardless. Of course, the sort of pilot who is interested enough in the intellectual side to post and read here probably does understand.

I could at this point blame GPS... some units (including my Lowrance) don't have MATZ at all, as CAS or otherwise...

Tim

[Say again s l o w l y]

You COULD blame GPS, but that would be a bit daft as all MATZ are marked on CAA charts, so no excuse! I doubt it would stand up in court!

"But my GPS didn't tell me......"

[Jan Olieslagers]

Aye, they have been known to have trouble in tight places.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalese_cable_car_disaster_(1998)
But perhaps we shouldn't generalise.

(PS the opening posts of this thread were quite amusing! Glad to have found it!)

[Sam Rutherford]

Military flying is the best there is. Though there is a lot of fun to be had on the civilian side if you're prepared to step a little out of the comfort zone.

Mate of mine from the same APC who stayed in joined me to help fly my Maule from Canada to the UK.

He had previously completed two tours in AFG and one in Iraq.

As we coasted out from Nunavut he came out with the reassuring comment: "this is undoubtedly the most dangerous thing I have ever done".

So, proof, you can have more fun in GA than in the military. :E

[Mike Flynn]

I don't think many have been shot down leaving Nunavut Sam :-)

[Alberts Growbag]

Much the same way as we all view 'bankers'.

But to be fair the training they receive has no equal and the selection process generally provides the best candidates.

When they enter the civilian airlines it can take a while for the single seaters to get used to a new world of commercial reality but there is no better resource of well trained pilots.

And no, I'm not ex military despite the username.

[Piltdown Man]

I have seen that they can all fly very well. They are well selected and properly trained.
They understand the importance of appropriate planning; difficult conditions = more planning, simple equals close to bugger all.
They are generally a pragmatic bunch.
The older generation of single-seat fast jet pilots have a high proportional of arseholes amongst their numbers. Still many good guys though.
The older generation of multi-crew pilots are very easy to get on with.
Modern fast jet pilots are team players and are also easy to get on with.

PM

[Lafyar Cokov]

I was fortunate enough to be awarded a flying scholarship back in the 80s - so started my flying at a civilian club, albeit paid for by the RAF. However I was aware that each flight was monitored closely and a failure to make the required standard could have led to the flying being terminated. After a reasonable period away from flying I was again fortunate and offered a career as a pilot in the RAF. I actually enjoyed the marching/saluting/running up and down hills bit. As far as flying training is concerned the biggest difference is the standard you are required to meet for each phase of training. The phrase "every ride is a chop ride" while obviously not entirely true - certainly has some validity in a military flying career - certainly more so than those friends of mine who trained down a PPL route and, although the 'failure' of a trip would mean much more personal financial cost, it wouldn't necessarily end one's training. As a pilot who was by no means gifted on Basic flying, Advanced flying on the Hawk and subsequently rotary training and operations - the scrutiny military pilots are under is constant and bloody demanding - even single-seat, as you are being judged by either the rest of the formation or the Cine/video evidence on return. As also stated elsewhere, flying an aircraft - be it a Harrier, a Herc or a Puma, is only a very small part of the training. Once this is achieved, it is the operating the platform that is the big difference compared to much GA flying - and not just a single aircraft, but planning ahead for your whole formation. These skills then have to be completely mastered for when we subsequently take these aircraft to war, there is so much else going on that if the basics of operating the whole package aren't second nature then it makes life far too difficult to cope with the threats.

Because this is how we operated day to day - it certainly, hopefully, leads to confidence in one's own ability. The very fine line to tread is not to turn this confidence into arrogance - for a number of reasons - but mostly in my experience and arrogant pilot/nav/WSO(p) is a dangerous operator, and there is no need to be arrogant. There are, unfortunately a few in the military who really believe they have a reason to feel superior to other operators in the airspace and for this - I can only apologise. To be fair - most military pilots realise that - while what we do is a job - its not just us out there and a healty respect must be garnered. We are fortunate/have worked hard enough/been in the right place at the right time/whatever to find ourselves doing a job that many people would love to do. We get paid to do that job and nothing in the way of fuel, landing fees, insurance, engineering etc etc etc comes out of our own pockets. When I started GA flying again the price of all these things certainly shocked me and many military pilots are, while not unaware, probably don't realise that, for example - at certain airfields - each touch-and-go is paid for.

As far as a military pilot looking at GA - its probably similar to how any professional looks at a non-professional doing their work as a hobby. Its easy to dismiss them as 'amateurs' and 'getting in the way'. - and sometimes, some of the GA fraternity only re-inforce that image. The issue of "ignoring the MATZ dimensions because I only have to legally recognize the ATZ" is, to me, utter foolishness yet it seems to constantly rear its head. Saying this I am fully aware that no military pilot is perfect. I have made some horrific navigational errors (amongst others) - often at quite fast speeds and had to face the music. Military pilots cock up constantly - and anyone from the military who thinks we don't is far worse than any GA pilot.

I think mutual respect is obviously the name of the game. The best pilot (at handling an aircraft and putting exactly where is should be) I have ever witnessed was a GA pilot and I was truly in awe of his skill,spacial awareness and handling ability. However I have also witnessed a 10-ship of helicopters, at night in fairly poor visibility at low level, hit a nebulous target somewhere in Iraq at a time +/- 5 seconds, come under fire from small-arms and RPGs - deliver its 'cargo' then split into 4 sections, support a ground operation, exfil said cargo and return to base. This was led by a fairly junior squadron pilot who again - did nothing but fill me with utter confidence and awe in his operating ability.

We share the airspace and we are all losers if conflicts cause more restrictions, or poor operations on either party causes two aircraft to come together. There is always more we can do to learn about each other's way of doing business.

I may have painted a one-sided view of how I see it - but hopefully we will all continue to evolve and develop a mutual respect.

[Brad2523]

My grandfather was in the fleet air arm and my uncle was a captain for an airline - but it was really the Air Training Corps that I joined at 13 that made me want to fly.

I was lucky enough to have many hours training on Grob Tutors, with incredibly friendly air experience flight ex-RAF pilots. On the various camps and trips we went on I again was lucky enough to meet an array of military pilots and gain lots of air experience in both helicopters and fixed wing.

Their enthusiasm and love of flying rubbed off on me but I would never pursue a military career, however have now completed my PPL. I never felt looked down upon or patronised by them.

More recently a few friends from back at school are now in various roles in the RAF and on catching up with them we have only spoken of the different experiences that we have had - I am often around biz jets for work (although I only have a PPL, but I can look and dream and chat with the crews) and they seem as interested in these as I am in what they fly and I get the feeling this isn't just out of politeness but are genuinely interested.

[ShyTorque]

Lafyar,

A very good and accurate post, imho.

I began my flying career some forty three years ago by being trained to PPL standard by civilian instructors (never actually held a PPL though), then on acceptance by the RAF, pulled apart and trained again by military QFIs and QHIs. I later became a military instructor myself, on both fixed wing and helicopters, then became a civilian pilot again twenty years on from there. I'm now a confirmed civvy, after another 23 years, have done more time out than in.

I'd say there are good and bad pilots on both sides of the fence and never dismiss anyone's training background and experience out of hand or out of personal prejudice.

However, it should be borne in mind that military pilots are required to operate the aircraft in any number of challenging roles, rather than just managing to fly an aircraft from A to B. It's a very different ballgame when you know there are people out there who desperately want you dead! I've seen many good military pilots not make it through the operational part of an Operational Conversion Unit. They could cope with the aircraft but not the military job it was actually there to do. The pressure on young military pilots in training is immense and doesn't finish once on the squadron. Looking back, my first "proper job" was as a front line battlefield helicopter captain (single pilot back then) at the age of 23. I look at my own sons, all being now quite a few years older than I was back then and I can only wonder how on earth I managed to do it, or how the RAF trusted me to do it. :ooh:

[Croqueteer]

:ok:With RAF, airline and light aircraft flying life I would estimate that the Ace/W----r ratio is about the same in each category.

[sharpend]

I'm a GA pilot who flew for the military for 39 years. I'm an ex QFI on Bulldogs, Chippies, VC10s, Hawks & Jaguars. I have know many rubbish military pilots, but all are very well trained and most are efficient, skilled and motivated. However, one highly decorated USAF Colonel once described the archetypal fighter pilot as all balls and no brain who thinks he is God's gift to women. Not quite true, but many do think they are Gods :). I suppose the same may be true of some F1 drivers. My view of GA pilots is of a curates egg. Some are very good and highly skilled, some are grossly over confident whereas some are very under confident. Some are useless and/or dangerous. Additionally, if you read my article in the last LAA magazine you will know my views on GA pilots who wear beach clothing to fly; shorts, sandals and short-sleeve shirts. Such pilots have no idea how to survive a fire. Worse still, they allow their lady passengers to wear high-heels and short skirts. If your car breaks down you stop and call the AA. If your aeroplane breaks down there is a chance you end up upside down in a field and possibly on fire. What has this got to do with my thoughts on GA pilots? Some are not very professional; something that military pilots, on the whole, are.

[S-Works]

OK, why has a 10 year old thread been dug up again? This is a new record for resurrection?