Any Objections?

[toulouse_le_trek]

OFFICIAL RECORD SERIES 2 No: 1522
PART 5 FOREIGN REGISTERED AIRCRAFT Date: 8 JANUARY 2002
A - Leases of foreign registered aircraft by UK operators
REQUESTS BY UK OPERATING LICENCE AND AIR TRANSPORT LICENCE HOLDERS TO LEASE
FOREIGN REGISTERED AIRCRAFT
Excel Airways Limited applied on 2 January 2002 to wet lease four Icelandic registered B767-200 aircraft
(registrations TF -ATO, TF-ATP, TF-ATR and one to be advised) from 1 May 2002 to 31 October 2002.
The reason for the application is to supplement the Excel Airways fleet during the summer season.
The applicant currently operates no foreign registered aircraft, but during the last twelve months was authorised
to operate three of the aircraft referred to above for seven months.
Any comments or objections to this application should be sent in writing, within 10 working days, to P W Stanton,
International Aviation Policy, K4 Gate 8, Civil Aviation Authority, CAA House, 45-59 Kingsway, London WC2B
6TE.

[FL310]

Guess the airlines will not object as they have no surplus equipment available anymore after all the crews etc. have been kicked out....

<img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[MissChief]

Has either BALPA or the IPA raised an objection to this? It would be tragic if not, and yet I suspect this was the case.

[BOAC]

This from July last year - deja vu?


&lt;The IPA are again taking a stand on flagging out, this time over Excel's application to run 3 Icelandic 767s.
In addition, they are asking members to write (politely!) to
Mr P W Stanton
Economic Regulation Group
CAA K4 G8
45-49 Kingsway
London WC2B 6TE

He is the head of the department, which, according to the IPA, has accepted almost EVERY application for wet lease. To quote the IPA - "His view is that allowing airlines to use their commercial judgement on whether to lease foreign (non-EU) capacity is in the best interests of all employed in the aviation industry".

The IPA feel all of us may not agree, and may wish to express their feelings to this man.

The IPA also refer to the application by BA for an extension to the second 'ATLAS look-a-like' (AKA GSS) 747-400 arrangement, made, apparently, on the basis that time is required to 'bring the aircraft onto the UK register'.&gt;


Haven't heard yet from BALPA.

[411A]

Unless and until UK airlines are prepared to have excess aircraft AND crews available for the summer season (and kept idle and not paid in winter), the practise will continue.
How many crews will agree to "part time employment" that the summer season offers? <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[itchypuss]

Excel
You will find that this is just the tip of the iceberg. They will lease in a lot of other capacity which hasnt got Excel painted onthe side just as they did last year.In addition they are employing pilots on temporary summer contracts this year I understand. If so this arrangment allows them to do it.BALPA and the IPA have objected

[E cam]

Copy the letter to your MP; it's easy using this site - <a href="http://www.faxyourmp.com/" target="_blank">http://www.faxyourmp.com/</a>

[stoweq]

I think its true to say that Excel operate 6 737NG
of their own. Given the statements on this thread it indicates that about 70% of their capacity will be flagged out with the CAA's approval. Given the current state of the UK pilot emplyment situation how can this be acceptable? No doubt it is highly acceptable to their owners Cypriots I am led to believe

[Rigsby]

The temporary contracts offered to the UK Pilots were very poor indeed financially and as a result most of the guys lined up who had originally accepted jobs have recently rejected them and gone elsewhwere to better paid and more importantly-permanent jobs ( I persoanlly know of 4 Guys-with 3 more who are just waiting on results from recent interviews!!)...things are improving on the job front and Excel will soon realise they cant pay peanuts to guys because of the market conditions, they will end up with the wrong guys in there shiny new Jets... shame really, they look like a smart outfit from the outside. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[ShotOne]

The IPA objected to their application for three 767's last year, and hopefully will also do so with this -but without the support of pilots there is no guarantee of success. The simple fact is that Mr Stanton at the CAA DOES NOT CARE if every one of us loses our job.

UK pilots, if you are bothered about having a job you MUST write to your MP and to the address in the CAA to object to this.

(House of Commons, London, SW1A 0AA)

[Lurkio Linepilutt]

Hear hear!

I will write immediately after posting this. The rest of you Brit pilots get yer fingers out too!

[CaptX]

Putting aside whether or not one likes the idea, I understand that due to the relationship between the EU and Iceland, it is legal (within the EU anyway). Before the abuse starts about unemployed pilots etc (for whom I have the greatest sympathy), I'm just stating the facts as I believe them to be.

[Nearly Retired]

Hey, people. I'm as supportive of unemployed UK pilots as anyone else, but it seems to have escaped everyone's attention that almost all the pilots on Excel's 767s last summer were EU nationals. They were as entitled to be there as UK pilots are entitled to fly elsewhere in the EU (licencing problems are a different issue). That operation also provided livlihoods for a lot of British cabin crew, never mind all the supporting services. Air Atlanta advertised for UK/EU 767 pilots to fly those aircraft, so what stopped you from applying?

[Xenia]

Have to agree, worked for Excel last summer, therefore for Air Atlanta on their 767. Both great bunch of people <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> . .And as NR said...all Europeans (like myself) :) therefore with legal right to live and work in UK. .Happy landings <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[ 21 January 2002: Message edited by: Xenia ]</p>

[faq]

Hello ShotOne,

Does your company not employ Canadian aircraft and crews for the summer period also?

Regards

faq

[ShotOne]

xenia/nearly ret, all very well -except that Iceland IS NOT IN THE EU!

While it is a member of the EEA, that does not mean any flight crew involved have to be. Once a wet lease deal like this is rubber-stamped the crew can come in from anywhere in the world -regardless of how many UK residents are on the dole.

[stoweq]

This situation is also allowing Excel to employ temporary contract pilots for the summer and grant summer only commands. You people at JMC, I think the whole charter industry is looking with great interest at the Excel business model.Excel are already doing what is threatened at Virgin and JMC. They are also flagging out a vast amount of their capacity. A friend of mine who works there tells me the directors point blank refuse to recognise BALPA!!!! I wonder why??. .If Excel continue to get away with all this the rest of the charter industry will follow suit,the bean counters love it.

[stoweq]

Shotone. .You are so right iceland is not in the EU. Another point that our friend Santon at the CAA might like to consider is that non of these pilots at Air Atlanta,South Atlantic Airways and any other company Excel chooses to use are not paying UK tax whilst Brit pilots are on the dole

[Cathar]

The EU and the EEA form a single aviation market. Air Atlanta has the right to operate services on all intra EU/EEA routes. Air Atlanta could be chartered to operate (most/all?)the services they would have been used for under the wet-lease. Preventing the wet-lease would have no guarentee of ensuring that the services were operated by a UK airline but could affect the UK airline wishing to wet lease. This is something else that the CAA need to consider.

[stoweq]

If we carry on like this the biggest company in the UK charter market will be Air Atlanta.What that will do for Brit pilot employment God only Knows. Wake up everybody

[flybigjets]

Loads of problems Monkee but I don't see you coming up with any solutions. Whats your business plan? Excel own and operate their own 767s and then go under because they can't carry them through the winter! Then your "friend" with whom I suspect you have a closer association than you're letting on, would then be unemployed like the rest. Still look on the bright side, with your "friend's" experience I'm sure he could get work.......maybe with Air Atlanta flying the Hadj. The problem with charter is that the winters are a commercial hell. Airlines that find inovative ways to cope will prosper, but those that don't will surely suffer, especially as the low cost carriers are now competing for the same customers on the bread and butter tourist routes. Facts of life.

[ 22 January 2002: Message edited by: flybigjets ]</p>

[upwiththebirds]

Monkee...................................................... .............I can smell you!!!! <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[stoweq]

Flybigjets. .Funny how Air Atlanta can get winter work for their fleet but Excel cannot. The cr*p that you come out with is going to put a lot of UK pilots jobs,promotions,and future security on the line.

If you can smell me phone me

[GOLDEN LION]

monkee... you dipstick !. .Air Atlanta dont find it easy in the winter to get there birds flying, as cyberbird stated he is sitting around waiting for a phone call. The hajj is only approx 2 months worth of flying (28 days each side of the hajj break ), this hardly constitutes a busy winter programme.. .If its that easy on the hajj funny how you only see the odd UK charter jet in JED.. .I think excel must be doing something right as there are no redundencies or paycuts going on there...... can you say that about your airline ? <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[ 22 January 2002: Message edited by: Golden Lion ]</p>

[411A]

The dimbulbs in the UK will take it in the backside again this year as AAI will attempt to clean their collective plate....and they may well succeed. Those who have worked for carriers such as AAI have a job that is really not bad at all...take the winter off and lay in the sun. Let the rest freeze.. .WHY has the UK not produced a company like AAI? Could it be that the UK collective mind is stuck in a rut....as always. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[David Hurst]

411A. The UK has just got an airline like Air Atlanta. Its called EAAC and seems to be doing a copycat. Will be interesting to see what happens this summer.. .Incidently, seeing the number of AAI 747s sitting at Manston over the autumn and Christmas, I don't think that AAI were finding the winter that easy.

[Max Flyup]

The comment has been made that most of the Excel 767 pilots last year were UK/EU nationals. This is certainly true. However what has been ignored is that ALL the UK nationals did not qualify on the 300 (approx) days a year out of the UK required (based on location at midnight) to obtain tax exemption on their paid offshore US$ earnings. Thus they all owe tax for last year and will if they return this year - but how many will pay it?. .BALPA and the IPA should follow this up.

[stoweq]

Golden Lion. .Obviously you are to thick to realise that 11/9 happened this year despite which AAI still survive. I am reliably informed that some very unpleasant things have happened to Excel flight deck. Go crawl back into your management hole

[The Skylord]

Monkee - "I am reliably informed that some very unpleasant things have happened to Excel flight deck."

Like what precisely?

[Doctor Cruces]

Yo 411a,

We had an outfit such as you speak of up to the end of summer 99, we both worked for it! Due to the boss hacking so many people off over the years with bad promises and things, he couldn't raise enough cash to complete some unexpected 'C' check work at AUH. How anyone could expect to send an ageing 1011 on a 'C' check and just budget enough for the main check beats me. Not surprising it folded given this kind of decision making.

It worked well and was a fairly happy bunch, give or take a couple of "growlers" (and we both know who so no names here!!) and it made a lot of loot over the summer but failed due to bad management practices at the very top. If you do not have a sharp management team with innovative ideas (I don't count planning to base an aircraft in Algeria for several months with the UK foreign office saying not to go there unless you ABSOLUTELY have to as innovative) winter is a VERY hard time for ACMI and the suchlike. I remember the first winter I was there, wondering on a weekly basis if I was going to be paid this month.

All the above may be a little off the point, but it only goes to illustrate how you need more than a good Operational team to make something like this work, top management need to be THE BEST.

There is plenty of room for an Excel/Atlanta type operation in the UK. Ours used mostly North American pilots with the odd (apt in some cases!) European thrown in. The Brits didn't like it but it cost a lot of money to type rate a 1011 pilot from scratch and North America has plenty so it made financial sense, as I suspect does the Excel idea.

I wish all in these ventures well. If they can make it work, good on them. It's not only pilots who need jobs and these operations provide employment for many. Some of my happiest work times were when involved with that operation. ACMI can be fun.

Best to all involved and sincere best wishes to all looking for work within the industry.

Doc C.

[ 23 January 2002: Message edited by: Doctor Cruces ]</p>

[Doctor Cruces]

P.S.

Emerald Airways have been wet leasing a Lithuanian (I think) registered AN26 for the last year or so because it's cheaper to operate than getting another 748 and employing UK pilots.

Don't see anyone complaining about that!

Doc C.

[GOLDEN LION]

monkee

OI Dipstick.... to the best of my knowledge 11/9 was last year unless you can look into the future as well as talk aload of bo**ocks.. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[Xenia]

Hey Cyberbird <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> . .Enjoy your time now...you'll be sitting in "sunny" Crawley soon <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> and flying around the mediterranean <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> . .I don't understand people problems against Excel <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> They are doing something right! Very professional and friendly bunch of people.. .Ciao

[Cyberbird]

Hey Xenia - Thanks for the good wishes, but just polishing my sailboat at Nice /not too far from the airport/ gets a bit boring after a while, if you see your colleagues taking of from Nice in their nice &shiny jets -doing some nice SIDs by doing wide right climbing turns with T/O-flaps away from the "Promenade des Anglais" ... looks great - especially at night with all the lites on ... . .I'd also fancy a bunch of nice visuals & night approaches in Larnaca, Kefallini or Crete whereever, rather than just sitting around- seeing my (Offshore-) Bank-account melting away ... - probably getting "a bit rusty" in the meanwhile; at least AAI is taking good care of their pilots-workforce /even those being momentarily "out of job" by putting them regularly in the GECAT-Sim in LGW from time to time for recurrency-training ...

Beside that, I can live without sitting in "Sunny Crawley" having another beer in the "Brannigans"- ^not much else to do there.... .Therefore I'd rather "bomb down to Brighton" in my old TRIUMPH-Roadster with some nice &young EXCEL-colleagues, once we've got some time off... ... or renting some light single in Shoreham (really very friendly &helpful people there!) - and taking it over to the channel island or visiting one of the numerous Air-Shows around in spring -or just enjoy flying over Sussex &the shoreline -by the way: what the name of the two big windmills there: "Jil& Gil" or so !? Great fun- just the hedges are really a mess in case ...) -Why I'm posting you all that!?. .'cause life is what you make out of it !!

See U in the CONCORDE-House ;-)) :) . .---------------------------------------

P.S. If U clip my wings - I'll die !!!

[ 23 January 2002: Message edited by: Cyberbird ]</p>

[rentaghost]

"The 'odd' UK charter jet at JED..."

Oh, that'll be one of the 6 Britannia, 3 Airtours, 1 JMC, and 1 Air Scandic that are doing Haj this year then!

[GOLDEN LION]

Yep....

Like I said "the odd Uk charter jet"... AAI alone will have more aircraft than this in JED this year.. .With JMC having 25 aircraft or so its a shame they can only find flying for there new shiny A330. Seeing as there German owners send a number of there Condor aircraft down there, you would have thought more work could be found for the UK fleet.

[ShotOne]

Xenia how can you read cyberbirds's post and tell us that this "flag of convenience" business plan is the way ahead for professional flight crew? I don't have anything against any of the guys employed by Air Atlanta or Excel. But these companies are trying to create a situation where employees have to live and be paid offshore and sit waiting for a phone call. Is this your idea of a rosy future for our industry?

[Xenia]

ShotOne, I never said that this is a rosy future for aviation, it is NOT indeed. I understand the situation and deeply sympathize (however u spell that) with all the professional aircrew (both F/D and CC) who are being lay off at this time, and CC who are on temporary summer contracts, know few of them at their 4th season now! <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> . .We are all men and women trying to pay mortgages and to raise families! how could I possibly agree? The only thing I haven't got very clear on my mind is...why keep blaming Excel for Air Atlanta pilots sitting at home? <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> . .The rumor of Air Atlanta 767 F/D not flying during the winter was already a topic of conversation last summer, far before Sep 11 event.... . .Unfortunatelly it looks like, lately, we all are in the same boat (A/C)... And the situation, far away from being pinky is black, worldwilde <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> . .Cyberbird...I just wanted to make u smile, as usual :) . .Finally, I would like to own my own airline, in a perfect world...with wonderful pay, benefit and contract for all my boys and girls, with fab rosters...but again...I will probably be out of business in a few months....and it will be, again, the never ending story <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: Xenia ]</p>

[stoweq]

Shotone. .I understand that last year Excel had American pilots. .both Captains and F/Os working for them. No doubt they are planning the same this year. Does anybody Know the legal situation regarding immigration??

[Xenia]

Yeah....pilots came with their A/C. I believe it's call a wet lease :) . .When the season ended...pilots went back to sunny Miami <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> with their A/C.... .Who said whimping and moaning where duties reserved to CC??? <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> . .If you find yourself getting bored, try to get into some sort of activities <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> or try to get into a more rewarding and secure flying job. If you find something, let all us know.... . .I am sure Excel did right procedures according to law and emigration....don't you think it would have been a bit to silly to risk it everyday, few times a day if it was not legal? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Happy Landings <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: Xenia ]</p>

[stoweq]

Xenia. .Where you born yesterday or the day before

[Xenia]

Probably I was born few years after u....

[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: Xenia ]</p>

[GOLDEN LION]

Jmc have had American pilots flying for them during the summer now for a couple of years. Caledonian, Airworld and Colours were all at the same game a number of years ago..... If it were illegal I think someone would of stopped it by now... dont you. :)

[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: Golden Lion ]</p>

[Cyberbird]

Hey Monkee ...you should rather stay in the trees .. just to get those facts right:

"...I understand that last year Excel had American pilots both Captains and F/Os working for them"

As I've stated- Been there- done that & most likely_: "Uuuuups - I did it again!" - flying. .as AAI-Skipper for EXCEL during the next summer ex LGW - and as it looks right now, that's going to be four 767s this year - but that's beside the point!

I wanted to state the fact, that the colleagues, I'd been up at the flightdeck for some 6 month, are definitively mostly (about 70%!) Europeans!! i.e.: lots of Italians (Ex-AIR-Europe), some French (ex Air-Liberte), German (ex Britannia GmbH), Austrian (ex LAUDA), Belgique (ex City-bird) and "some more exotic /non-european" jockeys: . .like "Ex-Air-Mauritius" or "Ex-Vietnam-Airlines" and some Aussies from "Ex-Ansett" - just another few (!) Canadian ("Ex-Korean") folks on the 767 -

But they have all two things in common:

First: Great (wiede-body) mostly B 767-experience & professional attitude and good standards (We'd been trained by Britannia-Checkers in LGW/ GECAT) and a good laugh most of the time/ good moral!

and secondly: most of 'em come from some "Ex-Companies" -which couldn't employ them anymore, 'cause their business plan didn't work out - on the long run!. . Now they (& Me) are happy to have a suitable job again, where their professionality & loyality (!) is appreciated, and their pay-check is on the exact day on the bank!

I didn't state, that's that kind of job, I've ever dreamt of - but for the time being, its the best I can get (over 40 years) ..

And I definitively will rather do another couple of years some contract work &thus meaning, sittig @ home in the winter, than joining a "Will Fly for Food"-Airline-outfit, like that Ryan-Air thing!

Never with me -thats the REAL slavery in my eyes!

And to Xenia: Never mind some bitter colleagues here .... .Big hug to You- Hope to See You soon! :)

[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: Cyberbird ]</p>

[Old King Coal]

Monkee

I don't know who you are or what your beef is with Excel, but I am beginning to find your posts about the airline to be very irritating. You obviously have one hellavu big chip on your shoulder. Did they reject you or even fire you? Whichever, I don't really care. What I would say is that this fine forum is NOT the place for small-minded, twisted types to air their personal grievances against any airline. Grow up or shut up.

As others have said here before, lots of happy campers at that airline and one of the very few that hasn't made redundancies or cut pay for the troops in these troubled times. Maybe that's what irks you??

And leave Xenia alone, she's a real sweetie.

[flybigjets]

Can't you see it yet guys. I strongly suspect Monkee is biting the hand that's feeding him his nuts...so to speak! Maybe it's a seat on the 767 he's after though I can't see how briefing against his employer (ie Excel)will help. Standby for protestations to the contrary!!!!!

[ShotOne]

This isn't a gripe just against excel, and definitely not against those employed there. It IS a post against the UK government practice of opening the doors to the UK domestic market, while most others in the Western world -Especially that of the USA! are very firmly closed to UK airlines. This practice will certainly mean fewer jobs for UK pilots. To those from the USA who have posted here to ask what the problem is, would you honestly tolerate it on your home turf??

As to the argument "it must be legal or something would have been done..", the same regulations govern wet leasing in all European Union (not EEA)countries. This comes under EU regulation 2407/92. The UK government takes a far more liberal interpretation of this rule than any other member state.

[Old King Coal]

Shotone

The post may have started off as such, but then you get the likes of monkee that hijack it to vent his spleen against the airline in this and other posts. He clearly has a vendetta and as such I would like to see him take his fight elsewhere.

Whilst we are on the subject, however, why restrict your argument to the Western world? Have you ever stopped to think how many Brit expats are flying in foreign countries around the world? Then consider the number of Europeans too flying overseas. If all these pilots were 'repatriated' by overseas nations then the plight of UK pilots seeking jobs in the UK would be very dire indeed!

&lt;edited for spelling&gt;

[ 27 January 2002: Message edited by: Old King Coal ]</p>

[ShotOne]

Some of the previous contributors and monkee seem to know each other. If they are set on a personal spat then I too would be happy if they had it elsewhere.

But don't lets throw red herrings. Yes many pilots from the UK -and the USA, Australia, Sweden, Sth Africa and lots of other countries are employed as expats. Sometimes this is because of a lack of resources for training local pilots. Sometimes -like in Singapore -it is because a well educated young Singaporean can have a far more promising career in business than he would in aviation. Either way, it is completely irrelevant to this argument.

[Old King Coal]

Forgive me, but what is irrelevant here in this debate?

The fact that there are many hundreds of Brits flying overseas to the number of non Brits that are flying in the uK?

...or was it, the fact that a wet lease application went in, one that was predominantly flown by EU pilots?

What are we objecting to here?

Is it the piece of metal that doesn't have a G- register on it, or is it that it is not flown by Brits?

Face facts...The EU is one body now, like it or not. The fact that a hairy Swede might be flying in the left hand seat of such non-Brit registered aircraft is acceptible under EU and UK law, like it or not.

Back to Excel...their very success, as demonstrated by no redundancies and no pay cuts, would proove they are doing something right...and in doing so, protecting the jobs of the numerous UK pilots that work for them. Or would you rather they sink into their own little self-protectionist world, denying themselves the opportunity to prosper and face the same stark realities that lots of airlines are facing at the moment? Maybe, when EVERY single UK pilot is out of work, then we can all feel content, cos no-one is doing any better than their next door neighbour? Hardly a red herring. Wake up, smell the coffee.

[Andy P]

Firstly, let me say I have every sympathy with those boys and girls, both flight deck and cabin crew who find themselves out of work. In fact I have a few personal friends who have recently been made redundant from JMC.. .However, having read this thread, I do think it time for some people on this forum to face up to the harsh facts of business economics.. .It seems the thrust of the complaints is that an airline, in this case Excel Airways, has taken foreign registered capacity for it's Summer program.. .Let's look at this from a cold business case as I suspect the management of Excel have to do.. .First, can they secure the capacity they need from the UK market? . .Well, it may be true that there is excess capacity on the UK wide-body market for some of the season, but definately not continuously for the whole season.. .Given this fact, what are the options; 1)Lease in wide-body aircraft and employ extra crews.. .2) Wet-lease the capacity they require for the period they need.. .Option 1 means that you not only have absorb the lease costs but also the costs for crew salaries, insurance, maintenance etc etc. When the leaner times of the winter arrives those costs do not go away, so the overheads vs. revenue begins to increase, putting adverse financial pressure on the airline. This could well force the airline out of business, as has already happened (BWA et al,) meaning not only the jobs of the extra crews taken on, but all the other BRITISH crews that Excel do employ, plus everyone else in the company as well.. .What good does that do anyone?. .Option 2 allows them to bring in the capacity they need for period of time they need it. . .As has been pointed out on this thread already, Air Atlanta do employ quite a significant number of Brits on this contract, so there is absolutely no reason why some of the bleaters on this board cannot apply for a job with AAI.. .Added to which as part of the European Aviation package, an Icelandic company is perfectly entitled to employ any European crew member, regardless of where the aircraft operates.. .Whilst I understand the emotional response people have in these difficult times, trying to force another UK carrier down the road to ruin by forcing to take on aircraft and crews which cannot be sustained helps no one!

Before you all start hurling abuse at me for what I have said, take a long hard think about this from an unemotional point of view, and tell me honestly that if you were a decision maker at an airline faced with this type of decision, that you would not take the same path.

[password]

What Excel have done to have upset people in such a relatively short time is beyond me but well done to them , seems to be more a case of jealousy than any real grievance, especially baboon or monkee whatever your name is. The airline and airports of the UK have been employing seasonal staff for as long as i can remember, but i don't believe Servisair, British Airways or anyone else would get this amount of grief simply for finding a way to make money and keep a certain amount of staff employed all year round but not all. . .If it upsets people so much, get out there, start an airline and make a difference, we'll watch with interest to see how long you last.

I'm sure the people at Excel would love to know how to do it....... <img src="eek.gif" border="0">