Virgin - Crew Discussions II [Archive]

sign-it-to-your-room

16th Aug 2007, 01:09

Firstly Jcdcon.....
When I said it should be better, I did not mean 'better than Office staff', but better than it is now. You mention iFly and the salaries advertised there but have you actually ever worked in a VS office, spoken to the staff about pay and seen what many take home with overtime, increments and staff shortages? Probably not, otherwise you would not have been so quick to bite my head off.

Secondly, why can't I ask for a pay rise after 13 years? The nurses, teachers, firemen etc do it after a year or so and no-one bats an eyelid, even though they clearly knew the salary when they made a career choice.

Thirdly, I strongly and wholeheartedly disagree and take great offence to your (and others) suggestion that Virgin crew have an attitude of Me Me Me and that we provide a poor service and are sheep when it comes to voting!!!:mad:
Look around you. The forums are full of complaints for ALL airlines and not just Virgin.
I voted NO because £23k as a Manager just doesnt cut the mustard with me!
Allowances? These are not a taxable element of my salary, do not count towards my mortgage borrowing capability, therefore I wont address any comments on them except this. BA/2 night NRT/£425. VS/2 night NRT/£150.

It is superb that as a senior CM you feel great about earning 19k. I hope you feel as ecstatic about earning £23k as a Manager in 10 years time. Before you launch the lifestyle card again, may I remind you that its not all Hard Rock pool parties, but working Christmas (for a £50 bonus:}), enduring long delays, flying in Red Alert times and a damn lot of studying.
I remember being a senior and how stress free and easy my life was, but its not like that as an FSM. Whilst you are getting some kip for the return sector, I'm quite often sorting out sick crew (on average about 1 in every 6 flights), talking to the hotel about crew behaviour (yes that happens too), talking to ground staff and airport staff about delays, catering probs etc (yes they call your room) dealing with lost items etc in check-in when we land and generally being a manager whilst supposedly off duty. You may not see that, yet you speak of the bigger picture, but are clearly just seeing the horizon. When I joined I did not see a big ad saying 'Managers come this way for £22k'. I joined as a junior with a salary I was happy with. I just didnt expect my salary to creep up so darn slowly! I thought it would at least keep up with my growing expertise and experience!

You mention crew compliments. I can guarantee you 100% that those levels are not there to make life 'nice and easy for the crew unlike those other horrid airlines'. Those levels are set because Virgin knows that to ensure the service it promises its customers, those crew HAVE to be there.

I happen to love my job and love the company but I simply feel that I should be rewarded with a better salary.
I have a mind, I have a brain. I care about my pax and the brand. But my morale is low after seeing several payslips from other depts. To be blunt, I feel like I'm having the piss taken out of me now. :*

NWT

16th Aug 2007, 09:11

Lots of comments from both sides of the coin here...agree with some from both sides. if i may give a view of the situation from a different department. You can't compare salaries with different jobs...everyone gets paid according to the job they do...pilots gets the most....some say they are paid way to much....some say they take a lot more responsibilities than anyone else as they are in charge of the plane, but only while it is in the air.....don't forget all the people behind the scenes that take a legal responsibility for the plane i.e. the qualified engineers, both in the office based jobs, in the hangars and on the ramp. These staff have studied far more, and for longer (approx 7 years to be qualified!)(how long for cabin crew ?!!), take a lot of responsibility but are paid far less than flt crew. Supply and demand forces at work here.. Now the pay rises for nearly everyone else in the airline (but not flt crew !) have been basically the same as cc. The difference is that VS wish to change your terms/rostering/standbys etc. My understanding is that one of the biggest problems VS has with CC is the level of sickness/no shows for flights by CC. If CC think the working conditions are that bad then leave. Supply and demand would force VS to pay more/improve conditions etc if the turnover got to high. If no one went sick, then the large amount of standbys would be reduced. Yes working conditions at VS have gone downhill in recent years, however you know where the door is......As to levels of service in the cabin....they have definetly got worse in all cabins. Some of this is due to the cutbacks in food, drinks, amenities kits etc, which does make CC jobs harder. However, everyones job is now harder, I personally believe it is the crew that make the difference on the flight. In my experience VS Y has never been very good, its OK but there are many airlines especially from Asia that provide far superior service in al classes. I recently took a company business trip to LAX in J. the outbound flight although late in leaving due to baggage problems, was excellent. Food was average but crew were excellent. The return was the opposite. CC continually heard complaining about lack of sleep, hangovers, hardly had the initial service finished, the numbers of CC suddenly diminished...I wonder where to..! Yes you guessed it from this post that I am not a fan of moaning CC, if you don't like it leave.

sign-it-to-your-room

16th Aug 2007, 09:47

WILL PEOPLE STOP SAYING THAT WE ARE COMPARING JOBS AND SALARIES! WE ARE NOT!:ugh:

Right now that I have that off my chest, I feel I must make it clearer why the 'comparison' was made.
The Office staff (most, not all) are earning money which reflects not only the job that they do, but also the cost of living today.
If office staff can be paid a fair salary, then why cant our cabin crew? £900 pm is not realistic for a young junior living in the south.

So you say if you dont like it leave! Great! Fantastic! 94% of VS cabin crew make a mass exodus for the job centre. Who takes the flight that day? The pilots? The Engineers? The Office Staff? The Ground staff? NO-ONE! Because no-one has our training or knowledge to just take a flight.

We are in a strong position and not being greedy or unreasonable. The 4.8% would have been fine if the other 'enhancements' were not shoved in. No-one is looking for 10% or other crazy rumours.

And yes I agree, moaning cabin crew are a pain in ass, but not unique to the airline. Snappy engineers, Silent checking in staff, busy club-house staff etc etc. They ALL do it.

Why other staff are making this a them and us situation I have no idea why.

pokergirl

16th Aug 2007, 12:02

Sign it to your room , you are so bang on in my opinion. I am also an FSM and very similar to you was happy earning 8K as a juniour but once again thought that it would not take so bloody long for my salary to increase. I have noticed on here too many times people are trying to make this a them and us situation which its not !!!!!! I work hard and give 120% every time , i have read alot of these forums too and sit gutted wondering what we can do to improve the situation. All the other departments pay increase was without conditions attached yet ours as cabin crew always seems to have them !!!!! Why !!! I would have been happy with the increase without conditions.. We as crew have joined a union to get recognition which other depertments havent so why is it wrong to be asking the union to do something for us, after all we pay them every month ! I dont want to strike, it sends the wrong messages out to our customers, but we need to stand up for ourselves - dont we ?

sign-it-to-your-room

16th Aug 2007, 13:22

At last! I thought I was going slightly mad there for a second.

Anyone would sthink we were asking for shares in the company, a nice Audi TT company car etc etc.

I don't remember all this fuss when our pilots got so close to striking. All they wanted was a salary that was in line with other airlines and everyone whole heartedly agreed with them (I still do) and shouted 'Here Here' from their loud hailers across the globe. I dont remember a single comment of "bugger off to another airline if you dont like it" either, so why the blatant lack of disrespect for our crew?

I know that crew are seen as being far more dispensible to airlines and easier to replace, but in reality that is a total myth. Us oldies at VS are needed. You can be the most fantastic Senior/Junior crew member but no amount of smiles and conversation will give you the wealth of experience that time brings.

As for the service going down hill, then yes that needs to be addressed. I shall certainly take note on my next flight about the comment of crew disappearing when the service was barely over to go on break. I have released crew early before, but now shall think twice about it.

We seem to be getting lots of support from our pilots and other airlines (namely BA) but very little from our own workforce. We're not at war and the general census is that no-one wants to strike.

vs69

16th Aug 2007, 18:12

Having followed this thread with interest as a fellow employee (not cabin crew,engineer) I can see that people from both sides of the fence have made valid contributions to the debate and glad to see that we are all adult enough to keep this thread from turning into a name calling playground episode,I feel it would be unfair to generalise/tar all crew with the same brush with the 'me me me' attitude as I guess every profession has a few idiots.Yes your pay is below the industry norm,yes the company could probably spend their money more wisely,and yes the terms that you guys/girls unions have negotiated (I use that word loosely as I'm not sure how much of a fight they put up) but was striking going to alleviate the situation or make it worse not only for yourselves but the rest of the company?I wont even dream of saying you know where the door is if you dont like it because I realize things are never that straightforward.Admittedly the payrise for ground/non unionized staff at less than the rate of inflation was a bitter pill to swallow,and like many I feel undervalued (who doesnt,right?) but if the money aint there then what else were we going to do?At the risk of being flamed (but this is open debate right?) the company need to stop recruiting people who are effectively school leavers and only stick around for a few months,maybe a year,and take some more mature,dedicated staff but then who else with a bit of maturity and dedication is willing to work the antisocial hours for not a lot of money?Tough call but it certainly shows in the level of care and service from 'more experienced' crew members,maybe not everyones idealogical view of the virgin way but as has been previously mentioned would you rather be served by a thirty something crew member who was attentive and happy to help or a disinterested 20 year old who is only looking forward to getting to the bar/beach/Abercrombie shop(sorry I couldnt resist) down route?Apologies if this doesnt make much sense 12 hour shift plays havoc with the mind....Take care out there guys and girls and mind the treehuggers at LHR

SpannersatVS

16th Aug 2007, 20:16

Here's a quote "When acceptance has been achieved we will work through the various staff representative committees to both explain the construction of the Cabin Crew agreement and look to see how we might apply similar principles in other areas of the business." So reading between the lines they are going to look at way's of screwing over other departments if the cabin crew accept!!!!

There are bad cabin crew the same as there are bad engineers or pilots or check in agents. There are also plenty more good ones & perhaps they do deserve a better deal with no "small print".

back2front

16th Aug 2007, 20:21

at the end of the day its all about the managers (and I use that term loosely) screwing over the staff so they get a nice big bonus themselves.

I really hope the crew can see through the spin and vote no.

sign-it-to-your-room

17th Aug 2007, 01:04

To VS69
You just hit the nail on the head!
If I wasnt so opinionated I would say "my work here is done", but i just can't resist giving my 2 cents worth!:ok:

MuttleyJ

18th Aug 2007, 22:14

QUOTE from Warkman: "until the day dawns (quite soon now) when the jobs won't be there for overpaid militants."

I'm thinking you're not cabin crew then???

Leezyjet

18th Aug 2007, 23:40

An office newbie (joined feb 07) just took home £1725.00. Thats more than an FSM with the new pay deal. The newbies skill? Office admin!

I find that hard to believe for just an admin job. I'm in a front line operational position and that is about what we get per month after tax with no overtime, so I doubt an "office admin" bod would get that much, they must do something a little more important to earn that much - not disputing what you are saying, I just find it hard to believe.

I have noticed though on the recuritment pages of the intranet that the jobs that are not airline related, such as the IT/Media/Accounting etc jobs pay substantially more as they have to pay wages in accordance with those industries to attract the good staff, however when you compare those to the Airline based jobs, the pay levels soon drop across the board. Example I saw a year or so ago - Onboard Media Specialist :- Role - to produce the little Virginified titles that are before/after/between the films on the IFE - salary £45k.
Ops Duty Manager :- Role - day to day management of the whole of VS's flying program, making decisions on a/c swaps, delay resolution etc etc - salary £30k.
Now who's job would you say has the most responsiblility and is more important ?. The low wages are a problem across the whole of the airline industry not just with c/crew. The only people that get paid a decent amount is the pilots and the very senior management.

VS69,
I've been thinking for years that the problem with the service on VS is the age of the crew. Many are too young, have very little experience dealing with the public and forget that flying for an awful lot of the population can be a very stessful experience, and hence I think thats why some of the crew end up in stand off situations with passengers over silly little things such as being asked for a glass of water. Now that VS has legally been forced to drop the upper age limit, I have noticed a few more mature junior crew members (if that makes sense) joining the ranks, and I think that in time we will end up with a healthy balance between young inexperienced crew and more mature crew members. Look at the US airlines - some of their crew are in their 60's, but they provide great service and are less likely to suffer from abuse from disgruntled pax than a young 19/20 something. Alot of good service is down to just plain good manners and knowing how to speak to people as you would like to be spoken to - a problem which from various industries seems to be a problem with the "yoof of 2day".

As you can probably tell, I am not c/crew either but I work fairly closely with you, but just remember when you are crew down you get a nice little payment for it. Spare a though for the other departments on the ground who when they are staff down (can be as many as 20+ at check-in sometimes) they get no more for it, and have twice as much work to do to try and get you guys away ontime as well as putting up with the sh!t from pax.

With regards to your payrise, all we got was 2% thats it - no discussions nothing, 2% like it or lump it.

We have no union to fight for us, as ground staff we are all in the same boat, engineers/office staff/airport staff etc and the problem we get is that someone who does just do office work, who could do the same job in any old office comes to work for an airline that gives them 7 free flights a year as well as everything else so they think it is great and when we have tried to vote in the union, they all reject it so us front line airport staff have to suffer as a result.

Just remember that next time you think things are bad - they are not much better on the ground either. The only bonus we get (if you can call it that) is that we get to spend most nights in our own beds at home unless we are working nightshift !!.

:\

pokergirl

18th Aug 2007, 23:55

Some very good points , however. just one question if you ever did get union recogition, would you accept the first deal on the table ,now that you finally after all these years had someone, supposedly fighting your corner ,or would you negotiate!!!!!! I suspect the latter. Also a nice little earner it isnt ,being crew down and at least on the ground the customers have somewhere to cool down if feeling disgruntled after 20 mins or so at check in they are out of your face. With cabin crew they have nowhere to go so 5 pound upto 100 pound before tax is something i would do without and have either a a full crew or better product rather than the hassle of 9 + hours with disgruntled customers. Also earlier a comment was made saying it would be so much better recruiting cabin crew of a more mature age , with which i could not agree more however on the basic as it is now , many 30+ have financial commitments and simply could not manage on the poor salary!!!!! so its a very vicious circle. Unfortunatley we do have very young immature crew who do simply believe good customer service is simply turning up for the flight, on a weekend !!!!!! who hopefully (Im very naive) with good css and fsms can be wittled down.

keiranlgw

19th Aug 2007, 19:41

Hello,

I used to be heavily involved in the Union at my old job and I do believe (unless it has changed) that Union representation has to be invited. In other words you have to ask them into your work place to be represented by them if you currently do not have representation; they are not aloud to approach you in the first instance. So if you’re looking for Union representation, it might be worth looking on the internet to find one you like and invite them in.

Paddy Hill

19th Aug 2007, 20:06

Kieranlgw. Which union were you involved with if you don't mind me asking? The T&G is very active at the moment at most UK airports and do not wait for invitations to approach cabin crew. Although an invitation now and then would be more than welcome.

I Just Want To Fly

22nd Aug 2007, 22:29

Hi, sorry to divert the conversation away from the pay deal.
Lately, I have had a pretty bad run of lazy, demotivating, and arrogant Onboard Managers. I am just getting pretty sick and tired of it. I am sick of slaving away, and not being recognised for it, and more importantly when I ask for feedback, I am told that I should subtly kiss up to CSSs more. Saying to the CSSs how lovely my pax in my section are, and how I joined a couple up to Flying Club... Or promoting our new routes.

Anyway, I am fealing really disheartened by all of this, and am not sure how much longer i can put up with it, especially considering the rediculously low salary I am receiving.

I know how to do my job well. Been flying for two years now. My onboard SEP is by the book, and always make suggestions on how to make the service more efficient.

I'm hoping someone has some advice, or can share their thoughts on this subject.

But there have been some amazing CSSs and FSMs! If you are one of those.... THANK YOU!

xxx

Turroncin

23rd Aug 2007, 18:09

With regards to "lazy" onboard managers, I have to say my other half comes home many a day saying exactly what you said, feeling that ultimately hard work is not recognised by managers. What to do? I wouldn't work for a company that obviously cares so little about individuals, which is demonstrated by the total disregard cabin crew managers (both on board and in the office) have about recognising people who work hard, set exactly standards and deliver.

scoobydooo

24th Aug 2007, 10:28

I would like to think Most CSS's/FSM's will recognise good efforts without being prompted or a$$ kissed -indeed when you do see someone trying to ki$$ ass/suck up or saying, I have done this, I have done that - it makes some managers cringe - no I in team - indeed it could have a negative impact on the observations made by the manager for your performancemonitoring.

When someone who is just getting on with their job to a high standard and requested some feedback once at the beginning of the day and never says another word about it- I believe that is more favourable to I did this I did that crew. This would be my personal advice to anyone out there who is looking to self improve. There are other things you can do in your own time too - those with the drive and determination will figure out what these are - ask an on board manager if they have ime sure they will lend some guidance or better still your assigned teaming manager re personal development.

I personally feel 2 years is not a long time in the role of junior, some people are down the back for 4-5 years before promotion, it's only in recent years that some people have been promoted to senior quickly (fast-tracked). I personally believe that fast tracking isn't necessarily the safest thing in the world and time spent down the back and knowing everything inside out is duly noted and when someone does exceed or is outstanding it is worth making a note of it.

The role of the FSM/CSS is demanding and having time to complete performance monitoring on the crew is one of the duties which unfortunately has to come 2nd to everything else such such as customer service (though I do agree if it's not done then you are not happy in turn customer service not as good etc etc).

My tip would be ask for feedback once and just do the job to the best of your ability, try and be positive (hard sometimes I know) because more than ever it shows when you are not during a service and then things like hero forms, nice pax comments about you to onboard managers and customer services dont come back which all help

Your comment regarding making suggestions on how to make the service more efficient shows willing but remember sometimes this may put someone's nose out of joint (are you telling me how to do my job ??) not always but it's just a thought - all depends in the manner it's done I suppose - diplomacy and CRM and all that but someone may take exception to a junior telling a CSS how FSM how to do things better - sometimes better to just do what is asked of your manager of the day who is probably very busy.

Now to finish this off, now imagine trying to get feedback and performance monitoring on a flight e.g. a 600 with one less crew member (as per current pay proposal) where the CSS/FSM's will be even more busy - it will probably be even harder than it is now !!

Chin up & keep on trying

p.s. there are some odd balls out there that love having their derrières kissed but fortunately I think they are far and few between. Most recognise and issue praise where it is deserved.

jbflyer

27th Aug 2007, 08:38

In response to Just Want to Fly,
I am a CSS and wanted to reassure you that hard work is never overlooked. Just because a CSS/FSM hasn't been able to give you as much feedback as you'd like, it doesn't mean you have been misjudged by an arrogant or lazy onboard manager. If you take a look at the critiques, the standard of performance required to be scored as "meets" is very high. I think that many crew have unrealistic ideals as to what denotes "meets" and what therefore is deemed "exceeds" and "outstanding." On top if this, crew are expecting to be promoted fairly quickly and when this doesn't happen it makes people demotivated. Think realistically about how/where your performance fits into the performance critiques, is what you are doing really an "exceeds" or are you just doing your job and therefore meeting what is required of you. Often some crew are not meeting what is required, but get scored as "meets" which is incorrect. There is a stigma attached to "NI" and to be honest, is anyone really that good at their job 100% of the time?
To put things into some sort of perspective, I was CC for 3.5 years before being promoted to Senior. The promotion system was slightly different but it wasn't unusual to be "down the back" for 3 years.
What I would say is that your FSM/CSSs have a great deal of experience and a very good idea as to who/what makes a good crew member so trust their judgement.
There is a fine line between being pro active and being too pushy, so ensure your efforts are seen as they are intended and not to your detriment.
Finally, have realistic views of timescales. It is unusual to be promoted so quickly especially if you have not flown before.
Don't be disheartened, I like to think I am good at my job, as you consider yourself to be, and it's a CSSs job to recognise people like you.
Happy flying!

glamourgirl!

28th Aug 2007, 20:04

so when is it judgement day? when is the vote in?

exvicar

29th Aug 2007, 10:29

Glamour girl, if you are in the union, you will know when the vote is in. If not, I suggest you get yourself in the union.

Virgin Boi

29th Aug 2007, 10:56

I'm in the union and I don't know when the vote is in! I had it in my head that it was the 25th, but am clearly wrong there otherwise we'd surely have heard the result by now!

Does anyone know when the result will be made known?

s3483

29th Aug 2007, 13:58

The ballot papers had to be in no later than wednesday 29th August so we should hear something within the next couple of hours.
I have just spoken to someone who flew with a union rep and was told that it will probably be a NO as they can check the incoming ballots and the NO percentage was looking a lot higher although there had been a lot of YES's.

back2front

29th Aug 2007, 15:17

According to cc.com its a NO vote. So good news at last :D

Its time for our union reps to come back to the crew now and ask us what we want from the pay offer.

JB1888

29th Aug 2007, 15:51

Good point back2front, question is, just how much do we think we should get??? Personally I feel we should get a decent rise to our basic, 10% to 15%. Also we should be getting better delay pay, long range payments for doing trips such as Narita and Jo'burg. The allowances we get for some trips are absolutely pathetic. If we got more money per trip then i'm sure the sickness level will decrease, thus 'increasing productivity levels'. Lets hope its a no!!!;)

back2front

29th Aug 2007, 18:01

Definately need a decent increase on basic pay

plus

#50.00 per sector trip pay

increase on allowances in certain ports.

NO decrease in crew levels, if they do take off crew then the service should be adjusted accordingly i.e. get rid of the stupid 3rd (sandwich) service on west coast usa routes.

No more standby blocks as it was the companies choice to introduce monthly standby so why should we suffer if they have made a mistake.

As you said increasing allowances and trip pay would definately improve sickness levels and therefore decrease the need for extra standy blocks.

Shanwick Shanwick

29th Aug 2007, 19:50

How about reducing basic salary so that it makes up only 60% of total income and substantially increasing trip pay to make up the other 40%? You're then rewarded for what you fly with unnecessary sickness disappearing overnight. Everything pensionable.

Introduce annual increments for CSS and FSM ranks of 2% a year

Allowances are not a part of salary but compensation for meals taken in the hotel. If the average price of lunch from the restaurant menu is only $15 then a lunch allowance at that hotel is only $15.

sazdv1

29th Aug 2007, 21:41

92% voted no according to the texts doing the rounds. :)

Shanwick, you make some good points.

Now we have voted no, the union finally have to start talking to us, otherwise we are going to keep going back to a no. I dont know about anyone else, but if we are not willing to stike then we should not even be on the pitch. The CC89 reps are going to have to ensure that the are representing us and not themselves. Whilst I dont agree with some of the tone of recent emails, I think there is something to be said for the union/company relationship and the financial benefits of the reps role. I think we need clarity.

I would vote yes for a substantial increase in pensionable trip pay (£90 -£100 FSM, £80-90 CSS etc). 2% salary increase and no changes to air share/crew compliment. Our service is pretty terrible at the moment and any lose of crew will further impact this. By the way I also think reduction of crew member was a cynical way of reducing crew down payments, something I was surpirised the union did not pick up on.

Lets get behind the union with a strong voice of what we realistically want and with the clear principal that we will strike if the company do not take us seriously. The union have to realise that the people they are negotiating against are getting big bonuses for keeping our pay low, and need to play hard ball rather than go along with what they are being told. I certainly wont be backing the union if they communicate to us in the previous manner of, and hopefully we have seen the back of Brian Boyd!

pokergirl

29th Aug 2007, 21:51

Saz, you also make some very good points. We have to keep things realistic people and 10-15% is never going to happen. As stated earlier its the conditions that i didnt agree with, and after speaking to alot of crew online they felt the same.. I certainly would be happy with an increase on basic pay, even of 2%, with an substantial increase on trip pay, and allowances. I havent met any crew who prefer this monthly standby, and its causing alot of upset. Morale is lower than ever, but be strong and support the union as much ever!!!!!

happyflyer1

29th Aug 2007, 22:14

Ditto me. I am happy to see pay go into trip pay rather than this 4.8% and sell the family silver for not much in return. Though it would have to be substantial and pensionable at least £90 for CSS.

I have always been a moderate but go along with now taking a tough stance. I will continue to vote no until the company and union get this right. How they could have tried to sell us reduction in airshare and a crew member is quite beyond me. I think we need much more open commmunictaion from the union even if it means publishing all the minutes, rosters and payments.

Personally feeling down and fed up with everything that has gone on. Not sure our management team are that hot, just seem to be overladen from the top with even more managers and yet crew down, catering, carmen, standby blocks still big issues.

scoobydooo

29th Aug 2007, 22:19

I like all the suggestions, shows we are thinking logically - awaiting the official vote count though. The problem with making all monies trip based to eradicate sickness would be when people are genuinely ill, or long term ill - They would be seriously financially impacted - also when on leave.

What about a points style system those with sickness without doctors notes gain points, the higher the points the lower you come in the pecking order for things like leave, bidding for trips, standby/staff travel on top of the criteria which already exist ?

Though again these things all encourage people to fly when not well and pass things on to crew and other pa whe not fit for duty.

Maybe just a sensible basic with no strings - do a complete U turn get rid of monthly standby watch morale increase exponentially - crew sickness drops. If it doesn't increase a points/penalty system for high sickness (not doctor certified). After all no one likes repeat sick offenders it screws everyone.

I Just Want To Fly

29th Aug 2007, 23:51

When I heard that the union and the company had come to an agreement, I was excited, and glad. Now it seems that we have been sold short. Now that I have seen the offer, I am once again disheartened, and frustrated. This new ballot was also conveniently scheduled to go over the proposed strike period.

Is 10-15% realistic? how much did the flight crew get last time?

One thing I have noticed, is that the standard of new crew is getting lower and lower, and younger and younger. Many of my friends who fly for other airlines, wouldn't even consider coming to VS, because they all know how bad the money is, particularly for juniors. We need to atract more experienced (flying & life). The only way is by offering a good salary package, not just frills like staff travel.

As I type this post, I presume that the ballots are now finished being counted....

I wonder if this forum is read by any of our illustrious leaders?

smileplease

30th Aug 2007, 06:37

Illustrious leaders?????

That is our problem, our so called leaders are pretty useless. I dont think this will be resolved until we have a change of leadership (Has any one met our director).

We need better pay (Realistic I agree, but not present deal) , better service, better product. Other airlines have left us standing in every respect.

We need to start to communicate to amicus/unite reps but not sure they are listening to us.

pokergirl

30th Aug 2007, 10:14

The problem we have is that you cant discriminate against people who are sick, obviously if there is a pattern ie off every sat night , then the company will look at it, but legally you cant give someone better trips, more entitlement to requests etc because they havent been off sick ! The flight crew did get a substantial increase but once again we need to be realistic. I heard the other day the age for recruitment has dropped to 18, which i think is terrible, we need older crew with more life experience surely. We seem as a company to be going backwards in everything we do at the mo, and its at such a crucial time with all these low cost airlines offering london to jfk for 89.00 . The company as its got bigger is falling apart and linda "the destroyer " moir seems to be right in the middle of it !!!!!!!!

JB1888

30th Aug 2007, 10:54

Statement released by Brian Boyd on MyAmicus:

92% rejected the offer
70.5% of all ballot papers dispatched returned

He goes on to say he has informed the company who may wish to revisit thier offer, but he will be issuing ballot papers for industrial action.

Too be honest even a 4.8% increase without the 'add ons' does not reflect what we are worth.

We should be getting a pay INCREASE whereas 4.8% is only inflation.

We have worked VERY hard to get to this point.

Lets ask for MORE

Like I said 10%

Pilots got 10% PER YEAR FOR THREE YEARS!!!!!!

If they dont want to give it to us

Let them lose even more when we go on strike!!!:eek:

cirrus17

30th Aug 2007, 13:02

hey guys and girls,
think this is probably the best place to post this-
just wanted to say many thanks to the VS crew who I flew with as an SLF out of DXB on 15th June.
I had just come off working a LOS trip 2 hours before and hadn't slept or eaten for 27 hours....
the crew were fantastic, upgraded me, brought extra blankets, pillows, ice cream.... cannot thank enough, allowed me to fall asleep in a heap and wake up smiling in LHR.
Thank you so much guys, and if you're ever on an EK flight, the extra pillows are yours! x

exvicar

30th Aug 2007, 16:02

Pilots got 10% PER YEAR FOR THREE YEARS!!!!!!

Errr, no we didn't! Think we got around 5%ish per year and are soon to go into pay negotiations again. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what we got, you are fighting for your pay deal. We are in different jobs with different terms and conditions and different pay. The flight deck pay deal is irrelevant. Hold out for what you believe you are worth and best of luck.

happyflyer1

30th Aug 2007, 17:04

Last thread makes several good points, especially holding out.

For the first time we have the chance to get what we are worth. We have to vote Yes to strike action and ensure we dont blink. The company cannot afford for us to strike and they will find money to ensure their crew keep the operation running. The last flight deck pay negotiation showed this if nothing else.

This is now brinkmanship

smileplease

30th Aug 2007, 18:32

Spot on. We cannot blink now, this is as you say brinkmanship and we must communicate what we want in the very clearest terms by taking seriously our next step . Looks like Linda Moir has seriously overplayed her hand and we must keep focus and ensure the vote for a strike is again in the 90%.

Good on our pilot friend for the support. There will be many who now worry about their jobs and try to dissuade us.:)

sazdv1

30th Aug 2007, 20:14

Hopefully our union reps will realise that we are just as important to the operation as the FD. Without us there are no flights!

islandhopper

30th Aug 2007, 23:38

Hey guys and gals ,
Firstly well done on the vote nows your time --take it :D, and secondly if it comes to it I'll see you on the picket line.
Regards
A bus driver ;)

priapism

30th Aug 2007, 23:43

sazdv1,

There are plently of employee groups essential to keeping operations running.

My mate operates the "honeycart"--without him the operation would fast grind to a halt!

Virgin Boi

31st Aug 2007, 00:01

Many thanks to all the non-crew on here who are offering us their support!

Sazdv1, a bit of an embarrassing comment in my opinion! Yes without us there would be no flights, but same goes for the flight deck, the engineers, the baggage handlers, the gate staff, the reservations staff, the aircraft cleaners, the caterers, the tug drivers, the check in staff, the security agents, the operations staff, the crewing staff...

do you see where I'm going with this...?

:ugh:

sazdv1

31st Aug 2007, 02:53

Point taken

In this context I am talking about here and now and the crew are in the spotlight. If we strike we stop the operation just like the FD, engineers etc.

I Just Want To Fly

31st Aug 2007, 10:15

We are all a team, and it is terrible that our colleagues in other departments aren't unionised. I don't understand why that is. It takes a great many number of people who are essential to the organisation, for the succesfull running of the airline.

We Serve, Sanitize, Save, Sacrifice, Sell, Socialize! We Strike!

sign-it-to-your-room

31st Aug 2007, 20:58

We must stand strong and so far it seems to be working. The posting by Lyell on The Verb Online (3 weeks ago) suggested that it was case closed and everyone was happy. Oh how they underestimated us and that makes us so much stronger.
I'm not sure about 10-15%, thats an awful lot. If truth be known I would have accepted the last pay deal had it not been for airshare ("you will get it monthly in your salary") errrr, isnt that my pay increase? and the SBY and loss of crew member.
Its quite embarrassing what a Junior earns. Other airlines may have similar basics but they make it up in other ways. Why are we the only airline that stands out for not doing this?

scoobydooo

31st Aug 2007, 22:00

What you're saying in short "sign-it-too-your-room" is the pay rise without any strings attached (dont forget the not backdating to April). Or rather the pay maintenance to keep in constant - in line with inflation.

I think that every time the company places an insulting offer, it just means that our requirements should get more and more. They could off nipped this in the bud with their last offer with no strings. But now I am thinking we have the unity now to really go for the kill, a killer of a deal - It has taken this long to get here.

But there's a part of me that says, NO !... for messing me about as you have done so far I now want more ! - I am no longer happy with just a pay maintenance (RPI) I want a pay maintenance PLUS a pay increase. so 10% in the first year and RPI for the next 2 years. That's not much its only a circa 5.1% increase (I mean real increase after the cost of living has gone up- RPI circa 4.9).... Or maybe I want hourly duty pay when away ontop of trip pay- like some of the other airlines do to make up for the poor basic and the delays.

Anyone else feel like this ? or is it just me who is now looking for more than I would have initially been content with -

The cabin crew just got stronger !

p.s. other departments all deserve more too - get unionised ! (if such a word exists)

pokergirl

31st Aug 2007, 22:39

Hi ya, does anyone know when it comes to ballot action for strike does the percentage of the vote have to be more than the 92% or is it still the majority !!!!! does that make sense ?

Tom Sawyer

1st Sep 2007, 00:31

Quote; "We are all a team, and it is terrible that our colleagues in other departments aren't unionised. I don't understand why that is."

Probably because not all of us feel the need to have some faceless rep representing us and coming up with deals that haven't consulted us individually on. Personally if any company does not pay me the going rate........I'll leave. No matter what deal the union comes up with in negotiation it isn't going to please everybody.

Can't really comment on your levels of pay as I don't keep an eye on CC pay around the industry. There has been a few comments about route allowances though and having seen the new scales I'd say your doing rather well. Most places seem to be around the GBP100 - 120p/n. This is considerably more than the rest of us get when travelling on company business. I cannot believe that you cannot survive an overnight stop on that level of expenses, which of course is meant for meals and small out of pocket expenses only.

back2front

1st Sep 2007, 09:56

TS - I think the highest allowance issued is £90p/n so once we have purchased meals and out of pockets expenses and then converted the US$ back to UK£ there is very little to actually bring back with us to help with mortgages etc. Although out allowances might be a bit more than most when on company business I know that their basic salary will also be much higher.

You also have to remember that the allowances are not considered by banks when we go to get a mortgage so trying to get a mortgage on £11,500 basic is laughable when we have to be based at the most 2hr from London in order to get into work whilst on standby. These allowances are also not pensionable so come 65 most crew (who want to make a career out of flying) will have a very small pension to survive on.

If you look at Qantas London base they are clearing over £1500 p/m, easyjet over £1600 p/m, B.A.quite often over £2000 p/m. Air New Zealand stay at the same hotel as Virgin crew in LAX and get nearly US$100 more for the same amount of time at the hotel. Maybe Kiwi's eat more or something??

At Virgin I am only clearing around £1200 made up of basic, allowances and sector pay.

What we need is a big increase in basic pay and sector pay. I will definately be voting yes for strike action (as it will give the company a big kick up the a*se) and no to any pay deal that doesn't put us in line with the other majors. And I will vote no to any deal that has conditions attached such as removal of crew, loss of airshare etc.

No doubt the next offer will be the same with one of the conditions removed. They will try and drag this on for as long as possible. The pilots had 13 ballots I believe before they got what they wanted.

If we stick together too we can achieve a positive outcome.

sign-it-to-your-room

1st Sep 2007, 16:30

And you echo every crew member that I have spoken to so far. We always have a chat on board and I try to gauge the general census of how people feel; what you have just said sums it up perfectly. I can really see a strike happening which is quite sad, not from a crew point of view but from a management point if view.

747jumboboi

1st Sep 2007, 16:48

I am so glad that so many people are in support of us guys sticking together in these current pay negotiations. It is embarassing to compare our VS pay with other airlines doing the same job. I hope it doesn't end in strike but if the company do not give us a fair deal that we can survive on it looks very likely!

Lots of people say why did we take the job if we knew the pay?
It is not made clear at interview that our pay will never increase within our rank even after years of service unless we take promotion.

Also all trips should be paid equally... A 2 night LAS is not even worth getting out of bed for whereas a 1 night ORD is fantastic money. Surely we should be paid for how long we are away, sector length and it should be in our banks at home so we can actually get a mortgage!

TO ALL CREW OUT THERE: Vote NO NO NO until we get an acceptable and reasonable offer!!!

747jumboboi

1st Sep 2007, 17:04

Virgin cabin crew reject pay deal

31 August 2007
In a consultative ballot, over 2000 members of the Virgin Atlantic cabin crew have overwhelmingly rejected Virgin's latest pay offer.
92% of the staff rejected the deal and Unite is now preparing to hold a strike ballot. Unite will be meeting with Virgin Atlantic management next week in an attempt to resolve the outstanding issue of pay and staffing.
Unite National Officer, Brian Boyd says, "Unite is now preparing to ballot its members on industrial action at Virgin Atlantic. The company's latest offer still falls short of our members aspirations and they have sent a clear message to the company that they are prepared to act. Unite will be working tirelessly on behalf of its members to reach an acceptable conclusion.”

jbflyer

1st Sep 2007, 20:15

Hi All,
It has taken 3 rejected Pay Offers and only now have the management taken notice. Is it just me that thinks this has been a MASSIVE WAKE UP CALL TO VIRGIN???!
I agree with the previous posts in that the next offer will probably be the 4.8% without the strings attached although I don't think they are going to budge on the standby or guaranteed weekend off. I also think they might do something with the trip pay, ie instead of 15% increase in year 2, they will split it, so half now and half next year.
I think we are in a stronger position than ever and we must stay united. WE MUST VOTE YES TO STRIKE ACTION OTHERWISE WE WILL LOSE EVERYTHING WE HAVE GAINED SO FAR.

VOTE FOR STRIKE ACTION AND URGE YOUR COLLEAGUES TO DO THE SAME.

Tags

2nd Sep 2007, 08:17

Hi guys,

First off, I do think you deserve more money, and the deals on the table thus far, I believe, have been testing the waters. Bear in mind these are pay negotiations not pay demands.

Having read all the posts, there are a lot of inaccuracies, particularly with regard to the pilot work force pay deals over the last few years. We gave away many parts of our original contract to get to where we are. It has to be a game of give and take. Take time to talk to the guys on a flight or whilst downroute, most of us are behind you.

back2front: If you look at Qantas London base they are clearing over £1500 p/m, easyjet over £1600 p/m, B.A.quite often over £2000 p/m.
You need to compare apples with apples. Speaking to a colleague downroute the other day, he mentioned he had several C/C friends in BA. Their package is different to yours in many ways. For instance they don't get private healthcare, LHR longhaul C/C can request only 2 trips a year, (& can't swap trips) and their concessions are extremely limited compared to ours - that are perhaps the best in the industry.

747jumboboi: Also all trips should be paid equally... A 2 night LAS is not even worth getting out of bed for whereas a 1 night ORD is fantastic money.
This part of our "pay package", as I'm sure you know, are subsistence allowances. It is for food and drink whist downroute, and is based on the prices in the hotel we stay at. Obviously the menu is cheaper in LAS than ORD. This is non negotiable, and has to be approved by the Inland Revenue in the UK. That said, the IR are currently looking again at how these allowances are paid to every airline in the UK!!

As difficult as it is, try not to get too emotional, and bide your time. The strike vote will have management on the back foot now. Good luck

PS. jbflyer can we dispense with the large type face and capitals/underlining?

happyflyer1

2nd Sep 2007, 18:35

Tags, thank you for your support the FD I have just flown with were brilliant. It makes such a difference to know you are all behind us.

I just hope our union reps and especially Brian Boyd are behind us to the same extent, as I am sure we will need to show a great deal of nerve and be prepared to vote yes to strike and be prepared to carry out the outcome. I am worried speaking to one rep that Boyd is a mavrick!

I Just Want To Fly

3rd Sep 2007, 08:28

Dear Mr Boyd,
I am all for a strike, but can we please make sure it's on a day when I'm not flying to LOS or NBO!!! Really not liking the idea of being stuck out there! My preferences would be SFO, MBJ or ANU, but would be willing to settle for a EWR or ORD. I'll email you my roster. Thanks, IJWTF:}

Has anyone ever been on strike before at their previous airline? What actually happened, and how did it all eventuate?

Eg. If a strike is planned for the 20th. And I fly to NBO on the 19th, obviously there would be no flight operating LHR-NBO on the 20th, so I would therefore be stuck in NBO... Does that make sense?

Any info from crew who have gone on strike before would be greatly appreciated....

This is my 200th post... Woo Hoo!

back2front

3rd Sep 2007, 09:01

One night extra will be worth it when we get what we want from the company so if you do get an extra night use the extra nights allowances to to do something that you don't normally get time to do.

The next step is for the union to ballott members on strike action. Hopefully this will be a yes vote as it will send a clear message to the company that we have had enough.

Then the union set a date. At this point the company will not want the press/newspapers /passengers getting wind of a strike date so would not be surprised if an meeting was called a deal worked out.

sazdv1

3rd Sep 2007, 10:59

One day strikes are not effective. It would have to be over a series of two consecutive days otherwise it would be too easy to cover the flights. This cannot be half hearted otherwise Virgin will seek out our weakness.

InTheZone

3rd Sep 2007, 11:24

Hiya Guys,

Sorry to bother you, but i just have a quick question to ask. Do you think its a big deal if i did like 4 or 5 spelling mistakes on my on-line application.

Thx!

back2front

3rd Sep 2007, 11:27

can't you go back in and edit your application? I would imagine 1 or 2 would be acceptable but 4 or 5??

InTheZone

3rd Sep 2007, 11:41

The thing is you cant edit the application questions once theve been submited. However everything was grammatically correct aside from 4 spelling mistake. Really worried!

Cheers!

InTheZone

3rd Sep 2007, 13:33

Question guys,

Are PA's made in English and in the language of the destination.e.g Spanish on flights to Havana,Hindi to Mumbai,Arabic to Dubai etc or are they only made in English.

Cheers!

glamourgirl!

3rd Sep 2007, 16:15

DEL/BOM/HKG/PVG/NRT National Crew read out Pa in there language after english PA.

sign-it-to-your-room

3rd Sep 2007, 18:46

Just remember guys that striking has a major impact on all aspects of the business. That airshare that you are voting for would all but vanish for the entire company if a strike goes ahead. Look at our profits for last year and see how little we made, lets be realistic here and try to see what the future woulod hold if we went to strike.

back2front

3rd Sep 2007, 18:56

SITYR - agreed that striking will be harmful to the business. Thats why we all have to stick together and vote to go on strike. The company will be forced to come back with a decent offer.

We have come this far and need to stick together. If we don't the company will laugh at us for being weak and not standing our ground.

As for profits its my firm belief that some clever accounting has been done. SRB is known to move money around to offset his tax liabilty, its an old but clever tactic that many business do. Of course they will shift profit from VS into Virgin Nigeria and other loss making Virgin branded companies, that way they don't pay tax.

I know yields are low on seats nowdays but no one will convince me the company aren't making profits unless a full and transparent audit is done. I heard the flight deck managed this during their pay negotions, again the company said they had no money, but the audit revealed otherwise. Can anyone from F/D confirm or deny this?

If its true then unite/amicus should be arranging to do this also.

vs69

3rd Sep 2007, 18:58

well said sign-it...
my views on this are already a few pages back but just to reiterate (and probably repeat the above post) you will do untold damage not only to the airline/profits but think about what the ground based staff's opinion and support for your cases will be like in the event of strike action.
However, was it wise of the company to imply the new deal was sealed a few weeks back on the intranet when we are now faced with this situation?And is continued investment in Virgin Nigeria ever going to reap any rewards or will it continue to be a money pit?£41.8million I believe last year,makes the payrise situation a little hard to swallow in my opinion but I guess theres little us ground dwellers can do about it.

sign-it-to-your-room

3rd Sep 2007, 20:19

Yes I totally agree that sticking together makes us stronger and voting to industrial action would do this, but some crew are just shouting STRIKE STRIKE STRIKE like its the easiest thing in the world. I'm not sure from the texts and emails that I have recieved that many crew actually understand the ins and out of what strike action is all about. Speaking on a flight this week, I was astounded to learn that almost half of my crew didnt know that industrial action is UNPAID. When they heard that they would be missing 1-2 days pay, they looked a little lost.
Will be interesting to hear next proposal.

Tom Sawyer

3rd Sep 2007, 22:08

As usual in these situations there is a few that shout louder than others. Certainly when I've spoken to a few CC lately they didn't seem to understand the situation. Spoke to one last week who said she only voted no because she was told to. She couldn't even explain anything of the last proposal that she had just rejected, but just did as someone told her. :ugh:
I don't think you will get anywhere soon on route allowances (as has been suggested) either as don't these have to be approved by the Inland Revenue, which no doubt takes an age?

Litebulbs

3rd Sep 2007, 22:37

Have a look at this site

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285

Where do you fit in?

747jumboboi

3rd Sep 2007, 23:32

Despite the fact I will be voting YES to industrial action I do hope things do not go that far and that an amicable agreement is reached!

This part of our "pay package", as I'm sure you know, are subsistence allowances. It is for food and drink whist downroute, and is based on the prices in the hotel we stay at. Obviously the menu is cheaper in LAS than ORD. This is non negotiable, and has to be approved by the Inland Revenue in the UK. That said, the IR are currently looking again at how these allowances are paid to every airline in the UK!!

With regards to our allowances - the Inland Revenue do not specify that our allowances have to be paid in this way. We can be paid hourly rates or nightly rates, the tax taken from these will be different although this is a lower rate than the normal earnings. 33% of your allowance is taxed and the remaining 67% remains untaxed. Virgin chooses to pay our allowance in this manner and the IR does not tax them as they are considered for use downroute only. The fact is most of us are so poor we have to bring them home and fraudulently spend them here. It is potentially more economically viable for us to be paid like other airlines who receive hourly/nightly rates.

Our conditions are good at VS I we cannot complain now VSwap and in action... although I am still too poor to use my concessions.

We MUST continue to stick with our votes and hope that the company takes any realistic suggestions on-board and we reach an agreement. If we don't we will loose our entire deal!!!!

glamourgirl!

4th Sep 2007, 11:03

Not sure if it has been posted? But is everyone aware that CSS AND FSM interviews have all been cancelled (sorry if I am the barer of bad news?!) I know there were lots of people recently invited!

The reason is of course due to the ongoing pay dispute. It seems the management are playing dirty!

scoobydooo

4th Sep 2007, 12:08

One only has to read this article to see that there is a world of creative accounting going on and that the company has invested heavily in itself thus reducing its bottom line profit (tax liability).

http://allafrica.com/stories/200708210290.html

In summary from article;

The airline announced that new routes and growth in fleet were attributable to its record sales, adding that its core sales increased by 13 per cent from £1.88billion the previous year, to £2.14billion.

The number of passengers increased by 10.5 per cent, to 5.1 million, as Virgin Atlantic expanded the number of destinations it serves around the world

Pre-tax profits for Virgin Atlantic and its leading tour operator Virgin Holidays, excluding Virgin Nigeria Airways, were £46.8 million following a major investment programme in products including the Upper Class Suite, the new Premium Economy cabin, new route infrastructure, and the new London Heathrow Clubhouse

Sir Richard Branson, President of Virgin Atlantic, commented: "The last financial year has seen Virgin Atlantic continue to strengthen the value of its busines through investment in people, new aircraft, new routes

Substantial investment continued to help th expansion of Virgin Nigeria Airways, the start-up private sector flag carrier for Nigerian which Virgin Atlantic has a 49% stake. Losses at thecarrier were £40.8million but sales increased sharply, from £24million to £83.6million.

As stated above, everything increased excpet profit - of course it did spending programme is huge.

Jcdcon

4th Sep 2007, 13:12

Playing dirty? Are you for real?

Of course the company are cancelling promotional courses. Why on earth would they promote people, pay higher salaries, invest in training and career development, when they are faced with industrial action which is set to lose millions of revenue. Even if strike action is avoided, the negative impact on the company and its customers from the mere talk of a strike is enormous. Yet again another example of me, me, me - why are the company doing this to us!!!??? VAA is doing what any business with an iota of sense would do.

And I have to agree with the previous comments about people shouting for strike action - they are whipping up a public feeling of discord, which to a large extent is not there. Yes the crew want more money and better conditions, and I am quite sure that will be negotiated prior to industrial action. Yelling about strike action is immature, unprofessional, and premature. Perhaps those calling for it do not have the capabilites to have rational discussion. I would also question their committment to their colleagues, who in all reality could face redundancies if the industrial action goes ahead.

This is a game to some degree - every company holds its cards close to their chest - of course VAA were not going to give us everythng we wanted straight away. I can however bet they are less likely to have faith in is as crew when all they hear is the ill-informed calling for strike action with little or no concept ot the implications.

glamourgirl!

4th Sep 2007, 19:58

I certainly dont want to strike but unfortunatley it seems to be the only language our Management speaks. All we are to the current management are a financial outgoing which needs to be as efficient as possible.

Is it possible we could have had initially just the rate of inflation and No changes to our terms and conditions? Perhaps if an extra standby month could have been acceptable with a futher pay rise? Saving all this negative press. I think that would have been fair. I think the whole issue has been handled very badly. It just makes VS look now like any other corperation with an unhappy workload.

sign-it-to-your-room

5th Sep 2007, 14:32

Here is what I would vote yes to.
4% increase on basic with immediate effect.
Extra Stand by month
No protected weekend off in sby month
Lose the 4 hour call out.
Salary review of current RPI over next 3 years.

I dont really care about the SBY month (even though I have 2 children), with facilities such as the Crew Service centre it doesnt have to be stressful.

So I lose my weekend in my SBY month. Again, who cares? I get to request trips/days off throughout the year which other carriers dont have and also have VSwap at my disposal.

Have never used the 4 hour call out facility, always make my flioghts as I want to fly and stay close by.

I'd like my airshare to remain intact as this gives me a great incentive and the cm on the 600 is an absolute MUST. We wont suffer but our pax will!

back2front

5th Sep 2007, 14:55

Possibilty of a yes vote from me:

4.8% immediate base pay increase (backdated to expiry date of previous pay deal)
Trip pay £50
RPI increase over remaining term of agreement
No decrease in crew members on any aircraft
No loss of weekend off during standby
No extra month of standby - although this doesn't really affect me I know standby is really difficult for some of my collegues
4hr call out doesn't really affect me as I live close to base

I Just Want To Fly

5th Sep 2007, 15:05

Following on from Sign It

RPI increase (based on the entire financial year 2006/2007 around 4%) and backdated to April.

Annual salary increase based on RPI average for the entire year.

No additional conditions or removal of anything.

That's it. Nice and simple.

Any additional conditions or removals require a further payrise.

Airshare Removal - 5%
Extra Standby - 2%
Removal of Weekend Off - 0.5%
Removal of crew from 600 - Additional payment of £10 per 600 trip.

It would be really great if the company could put some kind of voting thing on iFly. just like they have for crew food. That way they could see exactly what crew are looking for. For example crew ranking the order of importance for what they feel effects their lives the most. Increased basic, Increased sector pay, more/less standby months, weekends off, etc etc

sukigirl

5th Sep 2007, 15:05

Im right with you sign it, the only reason I didnt vote this time(yes im sorry but i was really on the fence with this one and i didnt want to submit a half hearted vote) was because I was torn by losing the ccm etc. The actual pay deal was not brilliant but a realistic offer I think. Lets not forget we are very lucky to have Crew Service Centre, No other airline offers anything like it and it does make stby month easier.
The trouble is we are in the type of occupation where stby is a must so when crew complain that its so difficult for them to do as they commute etc, well it doesnt quite cut it. Unfortunately its the nature of the job.

scoobydooo

5th Sep 2007, 15:16

Something similar to below, also now is a good time to review any issues that are outstanding or not being actioned.

Sensible increase for basic salary (4-7%) effective immediate and backdated to last deal expiry.
No additional Standby
No loss of standby weekend
Shorter pay deal e.g. 1-2 years. not 3 - a lot will change with virgin becoming a public limited company
Sensible Trip pay increase
More reward for senior crew (be it increase in basic or trip pay) to promote staying with and advancement within the company.
A review of variable manning
No permanent removal of crew on any A/C
Inlight of current "staff shortages" Pre-ops and vswap to be available 24/7 and any swaps actioned within a set time period - contractual not a perk
Review of airshare or similar incentive (in an upward fashion, not downwards)
Introduction of a reward system for crews waiting for rooms down route to discourage cheaper hot bedding contracts in hotels.
Increase of crew down payments as a deterrent to the company to employee sufficient crew numbers (perhaps an audit by union to confirm how many short the company is - if it is)
Bring in a 3rd party negotiator to carryout an audit within the company and create an action plan on how to reduce staff sickness and increase staff productivity. The internet is full of success stories of companies who have done just that and invested in their staff, the outcome higher retention levels, more productivity/turnover and increased job satisfaction, less sickness . All in all a great thing for the customer.I know it seems like a lost list, but we have to have a wish list to work to right ? :O

Tags

5th Sep 2007, 16:26

On the flip side of the coin - what would you be prepared to give up?

pokergirl

5th Sep 2007, 16:55

Following on from sign it to your room.

I agree whole heartedly with you.

I have said from the start of these discussions that a decent pay increase is needed ie 4.8% plus some increase on trip pay. We are very lucky in some respects in virgin ie crew service centre, vswap, etc.

As a commuter standby is quite difficult and expensive for me and many others but if it is needed by the company than so be it, after all compromise is the key here. I chose to live where i live after all. So in terms of what would i prepared to give up, standby would be would be my choice, i would give up the fight to lose it. If that makes sense. It seems the strike mongers are only a minority and the majority of crew want this resolved but we are not prepared to be walked all over . I also think the pay deal because of the games played between Mr Bollocks Boyd and virgin needs def to be back dated to april. There has been so many managers and union reps around check in , supposedly listening to what as a crew we want yet, none of the deals offered have represented our thoughts. I just would like to ask our other departments to bear with us , as i know if they were in the same situation we as crew would support them

scoobydooo

5th Sep 2007, 17:13

Tags

As I was typing the post above I was thinking the very same. The problem with each offer to date has been, in short - in order to get a payrise that is in line with inflation the crew have been presented with a long list of items that they have to give up in order to finance the payrise.

Personally I do not think this is fair. However if it was for increased benefits and other items then there could be room for negotiation - e.g. the standby. However for a payrise which only meets/sustains the cost of living (RPI) the net outcome would be, "In order to be in the same financial condition as I was last year, I have had to reduce the terms of my contract". How would you feel about that ? - It boils my blood :ugh:

I note from your previous response you are flight crew, may I be so bold as to ask of the numerous offers that you all rejected how much did you all give up for your offer ? - That's a genuine question, I'm not being arsey or anything :O however I cant imagine the net cost was at your expense but at the companies ?? (I could be wrong though -no offence intended).

To date the cost to the company of every offer would have been absorbed by taking something from the crew - I very much feel the company needs to "invest" in the crew, not take with one hand and the other.

Best Regards

Tags

5th Sep 2007, 21:59

Hi scoobydooo,

We had 2 separate pay deals, and some things we negotiated in the first we had to give up in the second, to get a deal. Some of them were only pertinent to our contract and aren't common between the 2 groups of employees, amongst them were:

- Airshare
- To start monthly standby and subsequently lose the guaranteed weekend off
- Vastly reduced day off payments
- The ability for the co. to change some trips and not pay day off payments
- Dispense with restrictions on monthly rostered hours
- Lose the guaranteed fourth crew member on HKG flights
- No buffer days around leave (never set in stone, but definitely gone now)
- Transfer of pension to another scheme that saved the co. money

There are probably others, but those are the ones off the top of my head.

I believe you deserve more. The main point of my first post was to allow informed comparison between other carriers termsand conditions. Good luck guys.

mark2100

5th Sep 2007, 22:47

i believe that a 4.8% increase yr1 followed by yr2 and yr3 at rpi is the MINIMUM which would be acceptable.
i've been with va 18 yrs and every year i've been waiting for acceptable wage increases.
A point not raised in this dicussion is perhaps VA has only made money in the past on the back of low wages.A decent increase would perhaps lead to a restructuring of the airline.(i find it incredible to hear BA is set to post 10% profit even after strike action and a fine to take care of.)Many other airlines are posting good figures as well.Why not us? We could be much leaner and pay proper wages.Tesco's make redundencies every 2 years to keep them ahead of the competition yet post good results each year.

sign-it-to-your-room

6th Sep 2007, 08:38

Inlight of current "staff shortages" Pre-ops and vswap to be available 24/7 and any swaps actioned within a set time period - contractual not a perk (as posted by Scoobydoo).
Sorry Scooby, but I find that part of your 'desires' completely unrealistic. Why should the company allow us to write our own rosters? What other company (airline or not) allows that? At the moment the queues for the Crew Service Centre can be quite long showing that they are never off the phone! If crew need help for a genuine reason then that is what the CSC is for. By keeping it open 24/7 and giving a time limit on swaps, then its just going to be congested with crew who cant be arsed to do a Miami on a sunday morning!
I see it as a major perk. For my first decade at VA we had nothing like pre-ops or the CSC (depts that cost the airline money and that were put in place to reduce crew absence). So if we offer our crew a good pay deal then surely it should remain as a perk?

VS-LHRCSA

6th Sep 2007, 08:44

Hi. This isn't exactly crew related but just want to warn you all. I was a CSA until just recently. My probabation was "not confirmed" because injured myself at home and was off for 8 days with a Doctors Certificate.

I know I'm not crew and this doesn't have anything to do with the pay dispute but just something you should be aware of, as it would apply to crew aswell. Don't go sick when on probation.

scoobydooo

6th Sep 2007, 10:02

Tags - Thank for your reply very interesting, if we give up certain things for the company then I believe a 1 year pay deal would make sense in order to see - how things have gone, has what was promised been delivered etc and then a 2nd set of negotiations a year down the line. AT this point I do very much feel a 3 year deal would not be in the best interest of the crew - unless of course it is a fantastic deal !

SITYR - Yes, I agree - the list is a wish list, basis for the start of negotiations, rather than a this is the minimum I will accept and the company then trying to apply the squeeze on that.

As for the pre-ops facility, it is there already (or it was until the No vote came in last week - coincidently timed staff shortages !!).

So it would not cost the company much to provide the service 24/7 and a guaranteed response time - it's pretty much what they were doing already. But in providing it as a contractual item serves 2 purposes -

They cant just switch it off again without being in breach of contract.
If we get it in the employment contract the cost to the company to "switch it back on" is minimal (if anything) so they have given something we wanted perhaps we now give something they want... and thus the negotiation continues.I personally feel V-swap is an invaluable tool to crew - allowing the planning of ones social/home life to a certain degree.

VS-LHRCSA - sounds fishy what happened - especially if you had a docs note - are you represented by a union if so may be worth a word with them, failing that Human resources.

VS-LHRCSA

6th Sep 2007, 11:43

No, CSAs don't have a union. To be honest, I'm not bothered. I have interviews lined up and will hopefully move on. Definately learned my lesson though.

Good luck with your pay deal. Hope it works out for you.

sazdv1

8th Sep 2007, 10:11

This has just dropped in my intray. Brilliant!!

Please see letter sent from WDMM to Brian Boyd. Please pass this on

Dear Mr Boyd

Following the 92% no vote we have seen very little communication from our union or even a willingness to engage with us. Where is the ballot for strike action?

At no point have the union thought to ask what we are looking for and subsequently a situation has arisen where you were strongly recommending a deal, which was completely at odds with what we wanted. We are surprised and disappointed that you, as our newly appointed representative, have not addressed this and explained why to this point you have not represented our views in any negotiations with the company . Before going forward in this process we need to know that you are on our side and that you clearly understand what we are looking for.

In the absence of any communication or research by Amicus, a number of us have been polling the crew on recent flights. We have spoken to at least 300 crew and continue to receive hundreds of emails and a massive majority expressed the minimum deal they would accept which is outlined below.

We want a 2 year deal only. Not a 3 year deal

Year 1

6% pay increase backdated
Increase to trip pay as outlined in earlier deals. Pensionable from year 1
Crew down payment increased for each crewmember per trip to £50/1 crew down. £100/2 crew down, £200/3 crew down.We feel that this increase to crew down, rather than increase our salaries, would stop the company allowing crew down and reduce the impact to our customers and our morale.

Year 2

4% increase to basic, trip and crew down payments
FSM/CSS pay

Amongst the FSM/CSS's we feel undervalued compared to our colleagues in other airlines in respect of our basics salary, more so than other ranks. There is a strong feeling amongst the FSM's that pay must rise to at least £28000 and £23000 for CSS. We all seem happy if need be to pursue this through a separate union.

Self funding?

The idea of self funding is not acceptable in any way, either terms of our remuneration, benefits or working practices. End of conversation.

Therefore in no way are any of the following acceptable

-Loss of crewmember of 600 or any other aircraft.

-Loss of airshare or reduction in any way. We would like a air share payment introduced which reflects our revenues rather than profit similar to that of the FD.

-No further increase to the block of standby in 3 year period

Planning for future pay increases.

Lyell Strambi mentioned in a recent company communication regarding the Base, that they had been putting money aside to invest for a number of years. Can we ask him why he has not adopted a similar approach to cabin crew pay?

How can present pay increases be funded

There are clearly ways of reducing costs in other areas

-BBMT courses

-Cabin service training days incorpaarteted with SEP

-Why do we have so many ground managers? Directors? If the company want to save money take the BA approach and clear out the huge number of senior and middle managers we have. BA manage to make huge profits and at the same time pay their crew considerably more than any realistic level of pay we are looking for.

Almost everyone we have spoken to would rather take industrial action rather than accept anything less than what is outlined above. Mr Boyd, you have clearly taken on the role as our representative and as such you must now start to listen to us, represent us and ensure what is outlined above is the minimum we accept.

The pilots got their deal last time, it is our turn now. Please do not underestimate our willingness to see this through to the end and we will certainly not forgive the union for any further mistakes.

WDMM

Virgin Boi

8th Sep 2007, 14:50

Who or what is WDMM?

sukigirl

8th Sep 2007, 16:19

Scooby the "staff shortage" situ with pre ops and csc is a genuine one and nothing to do with current pay talks, it is as sign it suggested, to many crew abusing the service by swapping and re-swapping same trips just to get something better.

A very good friend of mine was on a maternity ground placement there and said that crew are calling numerous times per day to swap, then calling next day to swap again for something better, on top of doing this with pre ops via the v swap option. Pre ops have such a back log of swaps that they can no longer take calls as well. She said it is not uncommon to see rosters now where none of the origional trips havent been swapped for something else, just think of how many crew we have and the amount of resources that are going into this service.

Many crew are beginning to get argumentitive and demanding to be taken of mia etc with excuses of commuting, etc. My friend said it wasnt uncommon for her alone to take 250 calls in an 8 hour shift. It is very unrealistic to expect it to be a 24/7 service as it is not operational like crewing and is only a nicety. Most of the people who take these calls are grounded crew on maternity so they would never be expected to do night shifts. Besides who on earth would need to call at 3am with regards to a swap?

happyflyer1

8th Sep 2007, 17:23

WDMM = We deserve more money

They are a group of senior fsm's and css's who seem to know what they are talking about. A group of vigilantes dressed in white if you like.

I think I have just flown with one as the questions they were fielding and replying to seemed to centre around a lot of what was in the letter.

Good on them I say. I dont think Brian Boyd is going to do us any favours and they are clearly going to to hold him to account.

Keep it going Boys and Girls :):):):):):):):)

scoobydooo

9th Sep 2007, 12:54

WDMM Bravo !!

Is all I can say they have summed up everything I feel in their communication to the union.

Perhaps they should start a new union, unite would soon notice of members dropped and a new union came in to play !

Well done WDMM - T short slogan for the strike ?

benw49

9th Sep 2007, 18:14

Bravo from me too. Reading my emails these guys have been working hard for the last few months, I think we need them to step forward and really take this by the horns. It is about time that we had someone fighting our corner. If the gossip is right about who make up WDMM then we have some great people pushing this. Would be good to see them enter the forums so we can get a dialogue going and would love to know what steps the crew should take and I think they will give us some direction.

sazdv1

9th Sep 2007, 18:34

BenW

I emailed the WDMM email address last week asking if they were looking to come forward and take a greater role, it seems a number of them will stand for the union elections when they next come up to get rid of the wasters we have at the moment. We can only keep our fingers crossed, these guys would be great:oh:

back2front

9th Sep 2007, 18:38

Its great that they have set this up as it might actually mean the company stand up and take notice of the crews views.

Would someone please PM me their email address or post it here?

Cheers

happyflyer1

9th Sep 2007, 19:02

The email address being used is

[email protected]

seems they have a website planned too

B_Beverley

10th Sep 2007, 10:16

I realise that this is probably the wrong place to post this but I couldn't find anywhere else more suitable, sorry.

Just wanted to say that I travelled out on VS001 to Newark on 05/09 and back on VS02 on 07/09. I'd just like you to know how impressed I was with the professionalism of both Virgin cabin crews (and drivers!). I've travelled as SLF a fair amount and I've never seen such a hard working, polite and professional bunch... I could name a couple of names but I'm not too sure how suitable that would be on a public forum.

Many thanks,

BB

zanevs

10th Sep 2007, 15:13

WDMM you make perfect sense!

glamourgirl!

12th Sep 2007, 19:19

Does any one know wot an available day is exactly? How much notice do crewing need to give me for a duty? many thanks

etonrifle

12th Sep 2007, 20:06

Apologies for posting in your CC Forum,however having followed this discussions, some of you may wish to have a SLF,s perspective.

First I know you are there for passenger safety.

Second I know that you are under paid.

Third: I know you are employed by a commercial firm, whose sole purpose is to maximise profits.

However, with out giving offence:

Why did you decide to join, given that your starting salaries are so low?

The accounting practices of VA, as to register a profit or loss within the Virgin Group are, understandabilly legendary.

Why is the service in U/C (sorry, never flown economy) so bad that I have sent back my Virgin Gold Card No 00 900 53* *** and will no longer fly VA. Having being a member since 08/94.

Why do none of you care?

Sorry, this is only the view of some one who pays.

Ex mil and slf 17,200 hrs.

ER

back2front

12th Sep 2007, 21:08

etonrifle can you let us know why the service in u/c was so bad? Was it actually the service or was it the product (undeniably bad the crew know, but the company doesn't care because its cheap to provide)?

scoobydooo

13th Sep 2007, 09:55

eton - crew just trying to retain what conditions they have at present, every offer to date has tried to take something away from us (see post on v-flyer website about pay deal). As posted above also interested in why you no longer fly - crew attitude or company cut backs ?

glamourgirl available day - cant find an official CAA definiton (CAP371), though will be int he manuals somewhere - it may be same as CAA contactable Day - http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3488945&postcount=12

If you find it in the manual before me please post it here.

scoobydooo

13th Sep 2007, 10:07

Having looked through our manual I can only find contactable which says contactable period is 0930-1200 local, however the times may be changed to meet operational requirements. The times of the contactable period will be shown on the roster. Only one "Available" period shall be rostered per day.

Dont know if that is clearly it or not.

back2front

13th Sep 2007, 10:23

wedeservemoremoney.com

(http://myweb.lunarfun.com/wdmm)

WDMM

13th Sep 2007, 14:31

Presently we have over a 1000 email/mobile contacts and with the next ballot looming it would be great to really push our communications to everyone.

Please send your email address's to

[email protected]

United we stand!

Tom Sawyer

14th Sep 2007, 07:34

With regard to the all the emails & texts contacts......just wondering how you would feel if the company started to contact you all in such a manner promoting their view. Sure you would all be very happy!!

scoobydooo

14th Sep 2007, 18:33

Tom

As I understand it the list has been collated form messages of support from numerous crew members, i.e. voluntarily. :ok:

I think if the company offered such updates people would be about as interested in them as they have been with the last 3 offers .:yuk:

Scooby

pokergirl

15th Sep 2007, 13:03

Sorry to hear that you no longer fly with us anymore, it certainly would be interesting to find out the reason behind it. If you have read the forum as much as you said you have you would realise how much we DO care, and the reason these discussions have been going on for so long now is because the company wanted to make changes which would ultimately have the customers losing out which is want the majority of crew certainly do not want!!!!!!!

WDMM

15th Sep 2007, 16:05

With further pay talks coming up this week we have been doing much research through various organisations, even talking to key people from the pilots union. We have also managed to get some help from a seriously good accountant and our aim is to get some information to our dear Mr Boyd before he sits down with the not so dear LM next week.

If you are one of those grounded crew in pre ops, crews service area, finanace, Human resources and want to help us to put some finishing touches to some pretty intresting financial numbers then please get in contact with us through [email protected]

This is vital work and your help will show the lies we have been told and how little we are presently costing the company.

back2front

17th Sep 2007, 11:30

The 'not so dear' LM who called the crew 'Pond Life' recently in a manager meeting?

r.s

17th Sep 2007, 15:04

She said WHAT? I couldn't stand that woman before...

How did you hear this?

back2front

17th Sep 2007, 15:09

Cant say how I know (would give identity away).

Nice to know what they really think isn't it?

Really her pay should not be based on how much she can screw out of the crew:ugh:

I Just Want To Fly

17th Sep 2007, 16:43

Sorry what does that mean? Pond Life? Fish, Tadpoles, Frogs?

Shanwick Shanwick

17th Sep 2007, 17:00

Unfortunately, the Cabin Crew and Senior Cabin Crew are paid the industry standard rate if not higher than other UK based airlines. Whilst there are thousands of applicants willing to take their place, they do not "Deserve More Money."

On the other hand, the CSS and FSM rank in particular are underpaid and undervalued.

Trying to separate the two issues will be difficult.

back2front

17th Sep 2007, 17:08

IJWTF - I believe 'Pond life' to be the tiny minded scum that lives in water, algae etc.

Shanwick - what crap! basic pay at Virgin might be comparable but I don't think there is any other airline in the UK where crew take home only £1000 per month as a junior.

Just because other people want the job does not mean that crew like myself who have been around for several years don't deserve to earn a decent living wage.

Why should we suffer while the managers award themselves huge pay increases?

Will be great to hear the findings from WDMM.

r.s

17th Sep 2007, 18:52

Shanwick - do you work for virgin as either a CSS or FSM? If you do I find it hard to beleive you are on here trying to screw the crew that work for you on your flights. Do we not ALL deserve more money? Fair enough there will always be thousads of people wanting to do this job, but you need people to stay and work for years to gain the promotions to the more senior roles.

If we all joined with a view to stay just a year, where is the care and commitment to the customer? Some of us want to work up to FSM eventually, but with pay as it stands the airline will just become a revolving door with regards to recruitment. The attitude of everybody being easily replaced does nobody, least not the airline any favours.

With regards to LM's comment regarding we're all pond life, I heard on Galley FM the other day that if we'd accepted the last pay offer, she'd have got a tasty 10k bonus. Only Galley FM - but food for thought regarding what Virgin do with their money.

happyflyer1

17th Sep 2007, 18:59

With a user name like that I think we have a FD member stating his views.

Could you tell us where you get the industry average of £10K a year for a JNR? Waiters in London are paid £20k!!

and by the way we do deserve more money, like you guys did when you pushed and got your pay deal. Thank god most of our pilots are behind us. Maybe you you might want to post your name so we know who to not to look after.

sazdv1

17th Sep 2007, 19:04

LM's bonus is closer to £100,000 a year as a director. The joke of it is since she and her Thompson cronys took over, things have gone down hill somewhat.

Who are you Shanwick Shanwick. I would certainly like to meet up with you to discusss this.

sign-it-to-your-room

18th Sep 2007, 08:05

Dont mean to jump down your throat but just wanted to point something out after 13 years with the airline.
Since day one of joining juniors and seniors have always made remarks/complaints at how low the salary was. This has greatly increased in recent years as the cost of living has increased but salaries have not reflected this.
To say "there are thousands willing to take your job" is just plain naive! So lets say that the 92% of crew who voted NO in the last ballot all leave and are replaced by those queing to do our job. Do you honestly believe that after a few months of taking home less than a grand they wont start complaining? This vicious circle has been going on since day one. Great crew leave, great crew join, great crew leave, great crew join......Its only now that we are big enough and powerful enough to have our voice heard. We dont want to leave Virgin and join other airlines or take different jobs, we love the company and want to stay, so why should we feel pushed out?
Virgin will always have this problem with crew unless they bite the bullet and get it sorted. You could say we are doing them a favour ;)

back2front

18th Sep 2007, 09:05

I was told by a VS SEP trainer that it costs around £20,000 to hire/train/put us in uniform and get us online.

If this is true then VS need to look at retaining people rather than have a constant circle of people coming and going.

I have been flying with a lot of people recently who are leaving after only doing 6 or so months with the company. It can't be cost effective to have crew stay for such a short time after investing so much.

It must make sense to pay a few thousand more and actually keep people until the company have a return of their investment?

VS-LHRCSA

18th Sep 2007, 09:25

I am honestly coming to the conclusion that Virgin must WANT there to be a high turnover of staff. The high turnover is not just limited to cabin crew, I've seen it in across the airline.

With Cabin Crew, for as long as I can remember, they have been known for paying very little and working their crews quite hard hence there has always been a high turnover. They don't seem to have ever taken any steps to address this, which makes me wonder whether they are earning some sort of tax-break or something.

I know it sounds off the wall but there has to be SOME explanation as to why they are so uncaring.

TightSlot

18th Sep 2007, 10:56

Sadly, I'd agree with that - not just with VS but with all airlines. Older, more experienced crew cost more: sickness tends to increase, productivity to drop (once you've been messed around for a couple of years you tend not to be so supportive and less willing to tolerate more of the same). These aren't my views, but those of airline managers.

There is a never ending pool of naive and inexperienced young people willing to take on the role of CC (see the Emirates/Etihad threads if you don't believe me) for less money than we are being paid and/or for lower terms and conditions. Incredibly, some are so desperate and lacking in sense that they are willing to pay the airline for the priviledge of working for them.

As long as the travelling customer chooses price above all else then the airlines will continue to seek out the cheapest available staff - they have no option, in my view - and, no, I don't like it either!!!

sazdv1

18th Sep 2007, 17:48

This is fantastic!

Dear Mr. Boyd

With the on-going pay dispute we thought you might appreciate another perspective of Virgin Atlantic's financial position. We have researched this document using the following sources -

A partner who is the Head of Audit at a large city accountancy firm, with access to specific airline industry data. They helped us produce the UK information and introduced us to the following contacts.

A Senior analyst at a major ratings organisation on Water St, New York. We had an hour long meeting with this gentleman on a recent trip.

We are in email contact with an executive of a financial investigation company based in the British Virgin Islands. The company act on behalf of financial institutions in the BVI and their role is to ensure money entering the banking system there is legitimate. They have considerable knowledge of the Virgin group and their financial activities in the region.

This information was not paid for, but given to us on the back of relationships spanning 10 years. Virgin Atlantic will try to deny the content of this document, but we have been told with some confidence that if you were to get sight of the companys full accounts, specifically the ones that deal with Virgin Nigeria, then your own accountants would be able to verify this information.

Other sources of information were Companies house, The Press association and information given to us by our grounded crew working in other areas of the company. We have tried to simplify the figures and information that we have been given.

How is Virgin Atlantic really doing?

Prior to any wage settlement Virgin has always communicated a negative outlook for the company's financial state. It is therefore not a coincidence that this time; the old line was rattled out to the crew through the usual company communication lines. When we spoke to both the accountants and analysts they made two interesting points.

1. The Virgin group has long been recognised for producing a business model that produces huge levels of revenue, yet is always able to deliver low levels of profit using the most ambiguous and complex methods of accounting. This point in particular seems to be causing Singapore Airlines considerable frustration, to the point where they are considering severing their relationship with us. Quite simply they just don't understand where their share of the money is going.

2. With arguably one of the best route structures and one of the lowest cost bases, then why are we not delivering 7-10% profits? Surely if the companys line on our present financial situation is true, then why have not any of our directors been held accountable. Why are they still receiving their bonuses? No other company would be so forgiving.

So what are the real facts?

Revenues are increasing. 13% increase in last financial year from £1.88b to £2.14b

Increases to revenue through extra charges to customers, credit card charges and the fuel surcharge.

Virgin generates £26-£30m a year in interest from it's UK bank accounts holding £450m in cash.

Passenger numbers are up 10.5% at 5.1m. How often do we see an empty UC seat?

New routes are opening up. Nairobi, Mauritius are the latest

Investment in lounges at LHR £11m. Plus improvements to other destinations

Investment in major buildings. The Base estimates run at £16m +

Substantial new aircraft orders for 15 B787 worth £4 Billion, with options for 20 more

Pledges of £1.6b over the next 10 years for investment in green fuels

We are regularly told about the damage that the cost of oil at $80 a barrel is doing to the company, but they never seem to make mention of the weak dollar and the benefits it has to both our oil/aircraft leasing costs/Increased pax numbers visiting the USA.

A considerable settlement was reached with the pilots union in their last pay negotiations. This now makes them the best paid long haul pilot workforce in the UK based on an hourly rate. BA get more money but have to work more hours.

Virgin Nigeria

Virgin Atlantic made reasonable profits taking out the Virgin Nigeria effect. So could our investment in Virgin Nigeria be seen as a bad decison? We think not.

Can we really own 49% of a company with losses of 50% on £80m revenue?

A good question would be where has the £40m loss gone?

One of the areas the pilot unions originally identified was significant funds generated by Virgin Atlantic yet held outside the normal banking structures. Operting from Nigeria has opened up the opportunity for the company to work within a very relaxed corporate structure, using a beneficial taxation system and a much less stringent accounting method, as a result it is has been easy to withdraw money and write it off as a loss to Virgin Atlantic.

We have ben passed information from the financial investigator in the BVI showing £13.5m being transferred from Virgin Nigeria to accounts held by Virgin in the BVI. The funds held there are described as very significant. We do not think it is a coincidence that SRB has moved from Oxford to the British Virgin Islands.

What do we cost the company?

The crew represent more than 55% of the workforce yet only cost 3% of the total revenue.

The average cost of a Virgin Atlantic crewmember is £12900 across all ranks. The national average for the UK is £22,800. We are based in London where the average salary is £32000. The only place Virgin could find cheaper labour is by recruiting in the Third world, of which it is increasingly doing so (We understand approx 400 Nigerian, Indian, Chinese crew are employed by Virgin). The next time you speak with an Indian crewmember ask them how much they earn and you will quickly learn how Virgin is exploiting cheap labour across the world.

Virgin can afford to invest in us and as we outlined in our recent communication to you, the huge majority of the crew want a 2 year deal, backdated.

We will back the following deal

FSM - £28000/£14000 cost £1.6m

CSS - £22000/£11000 cost £2.1m

SFA/JNR/IFBT - 10% over 2 years - cost £4.1 m

Total increase to salarys is £7.8m.

Increases to trip pay, pensionable from year 1.

When you add in increases to trip pay, pensions and tax, the figure is about £9.5m. This figure is very much in line with recent investments the company has made to other key areas. Or put another way it is substantially cheaper than the £26m it will cost to ground the airline for a three day's.

Good luck Mr Boyd.

WDMM

exvicar

18th Sep 2007, 22:30

I am sure your training will have some form of tax advantage and possibly some government incentive or kickback. It will not cost the company £20k. If the training cost is reduced, I am sure the company would rather have a high turnover of staff. Historically, newbies cost less, a large majority have a short term aim and do not necessarily see the job as a long term career, do not join the union as it is £8ish a month and are easier to push around.

As for the spending on the clubhouse and the 787 - The company have to invest in new aircraft and decent lounges to attract the premium business that pays our wages. We would lose the higher paying passenger if all we offered was instant coffee and a ride on a rickety old 747 classic that spent most of its time in the hangar. With the price of fuel, 4 engines is no longer the way ahead. To survive things have to change.

The weak dollar works both ways. It may be cheaper to shop in Abercrombie in the states if you are flying from the UK. However, equally if an American wants to have scones in York, the weak dollar makes it more expensive for the return business. In addition, due to the lack of a welcome and the premise of we are all terrorists until proven otherwise, I am sure that the overall number of holiday makers visiting the states is down.

I believe that you deserve a pay rise but again you are clouding it with a seperate issue. Hold out for what you believe you are worth - the fact that the company is investing in facilities and aircraft to remain competitive is irrelevant.

happyflyer1

19th Sep 2007, 06:03

I am amazed what lengths this company will go to

We rip of our passengers by agreeing to fix a fuel surcharge with British Airways, we then dob em in. Our chairman is now exiled abroad working out ways to rip the tax man off. And while this goes on he continues to rip us off with the pay. I did not realise just how greedy Virgin are.

:confused:

MorningGlory

21st Sep 2007, 12:42

:eek: you think Virgin are greedy..? You should try doing a spell with Ryanair, then you'll find out what greedy really is!

happyflyer1

22nd Sep 2007, 05:27

Just arrived on email

The company have asked for us to go along to a series of meetings next week so they can explain the latest proposal. It seems like they just want to speak to the FSM's and CSS's but we think everyone should be invited.

We believe this move shows how desperate they are and this is a clear sign of the weakness in their position. Please join us next week to go and deliver a very clear message that anything less than the deal outlined below will result in another massive rejection and subsequent action

Two year deal

FSM £28000

CSS £22000

SFA, CC and IFBT 10% over two years

Increases to trip pay and crew down with no concessions

OR WE STRIKE

wedeservemoremoney.com

benw49

22nd Sep 2007, 05:56

I have just had a text saying that Richard was coming to these meetings to deny the existence of his offshore slush fund and to plead poverty to the crew.:{

A friend of mine works in the tax office that deals with our accounts and she is quite upfront with their concerns of how money is leaking out of Virgin. Has anyone sent Singapore airlines a link to this thread from WDMM? I am sure they would be very keen to look at this:=

sazdv1

22nd Sep 2007, 06:50

The WDMM guys have been talking to David Gonski who works for Singapore in the accounts dept, he contacted them so that should be interesting to hear what he comes back.

If Richard turns up then they must be be getting a bit panicky.

scoobydooo

22nd Sep 2007, 14:29

Will be interesting to see the outcome if the meetings are scheduled. I have been looking back into the flight crew strike threat a few years back, I have to say the requests were pretty steep, makes what the cabin crew want look like a walk in the park. Historical news article below, a search on google brings up loads, they only wanted a rise to be brought in line with their counterparts at BA... isnt that what the cabin crew want too.

Feb 2001

SIR RICHARD Branson's Virgin Atlantic airline faces strike action after 95 per cent of its pilots rejected a pay offer.
Sir Richard, anxious to avoid cancellations by passengers seeking to avoid industrial action, intervened personally but failed to persuade flight crew to accept a 5 per cent pay rise.
An internal memo reveals that Virgin tried to ensure that news of the strike threat did not leak out. The confidential letter warned that the business would be damaged and Virgin's image tarnished if passengers "get wind of potential disruption".

Virgin management will make a final attempt to reach a deal on Monday but members of the British Airline Pilots' Association (Balpa) said there would need to be a significant improvement in the pay offer. The union, which recently secured recognition by Virgin, is preparing for a ballot on industrial action if there is no breakthrough.
Pilots want a two-year deal worth 12 per cent above inflation and a 3.5 per cent boost to pensions. Pilots' representatives argue that Virgin's flight crew are paid 25 per cent less than their colleagues at British Airways, where senior captains earn more than pounds 100,000 a year.
The letter, by Malcolm Wagstaff, Virgin Atlantic's flight operations director, conceded that the airline was "not a market leader" for pay but said it could not afford a bigger rise. "The commercial damage ... starts from the moment customers get wind of a potential for disruption," he wrote. "Our reputation and image, as well as opportunities for growth and stability, will be jeopardised."
Copyright 2001 Independent Newspapers UK Limited
Provided by ProQuest Information and Learning Company. All rights Reserved.

virgin dolly

22nd Sep 2007, 17:26

Though one is not happy about striking I'm finding that the company is putting me in a position where I have to. (Flying for 14 years and now a CSS) I'm sick of turning up for flights and being crew down...no, no, no, I'm not interested in the £10, £20 for crew down I just want a full compliment of crew. What is wrong with that.....? Of course the Company have been getting away with this for years..Why.? because they could...! Our managers have targets to reach and a big bonus to collect by not putting crew on flights, saving on allowances down route and hotel beds and save weight. (sorry had to that one in). If a flight with two crew down can work.. of course under pressure but the customers get off happy and safety not compromised then why not. Its good for business but unfortunately not good for me or my colleagues.
Just had my pension forecast for when I'm 65 £6,500 "OH Dear...!" Why.. because I'm just pensioned on my basic pay...not flight pay and of course not down route allowances because thats to feed us. (which most people forget) Yes I'm one of them who has to save my allowances because I have a mortgage to pay. So I'm not really looking after myself and having to cut corners on food.
You may ask why does this dolly put up with this and leave Virgin..? I love my job, I get to travel, meet different people each time I'm come to work and have some time to lay in the sun. Of course this all comes with a price...Poor pay, jet lag and bad health but every job has a price to pay what ever they do.
My partner works for BA and holds the same position as me who is payed almost twice as much as me. Although Richard Branson thinks Virgin is better than BA, I have to agree traveling BA first and business class a lot. You start to think if BA is paying their staff X, and Pilots X (who earn more than Virgin pilots) and are making 7% profit margin. Where is Virgin's money going....? not on cabin crew thats for sure...!
Anyway I'm not talking about profits I'm talking about me and my colleagues who have had enough of poor pay, crew down and cut backs.
We as Virgin crew are now standing together for once which has taken a long time, we are not kids anymore we have homes, families to think about and of course our future.
I think I'm speaking for many crew now who just want a fairly good wage, good working environment and who can give a good product to our customers.

Regards Dolly :ok:

New_cabin_shoes

24th Sep 2007, 16:48

Virgin Dolly I have to agree with everything you say.

I too am a CSS & have worked for VAA for 10 years now. This is my 3rd airline and joined Virgin under no illusions that the pay was less than my previous employers...I joined for the lifestyle! However, my lifestyle has changed somewhat within the last 10 years & I feel that as a supervisor with a total of 15 years flying & life experience, this should reflect in my salary!

It is easy for people to say "why don't you leave if you're not happy" but its not that simple. I love my job and I've worked hard to get to the position I'm in...why should I be forced to leave? Who would take my job?

I would've been happy with the 4.8% on the last pay offer, but like so many of my colleagues was put off with losing a ccm on A346, extra block of STBY & losing airshare etc etc...that is why I voted NO!

I, like many others, now feel like I am getting the piss taken out of me with stupid offers. Morale is low with crew which makes my job all the harder when you're trying to motivate discruntled staff. This needs to be sorted out soon before all our pax start to leave too...then where will we be?

I don't want to strike, I just want a fair pay offer...is that too much to ask?:rolleyes:

tns

26th Sep 2007, 08:24

I'm new to VAA - can someone update me on whether the strike is likely?

sign-it-to-your-room

26th Sep 2007, 14:39

No-one has been balloted yet as Management are spending this week talking to FSMs and trying to gauge where they went wrong.
On that note, has anyone spoken to anyone who has attended?

I think a strike is unlikely!

scoobydooo

26th Sep 2007, 17:05

What do CSS/FSM's think about this communication to their virgin email account asking them to come in and hear what management have to say about the paydeal ?

There is a part of me which is suspect - I would of expected a communication from the union first about the outcome of the pay talks - this seems a little odd - or am I too untrusting and full of scepticism. I can only interpret this as the pay talks did not go in the companies favour.

Dear FSM/CSS,

......Virgin Atlantic Management and Amicus/Unite met on the 20th/25th September to try and work out a deal that incorporates the feedback that we have been hearing from all the crew and one that is affordable to the business.

We would like to be able to update you face to face and invite you to join
a group of FSM/CSS colleagues and members of the Cabin Services Management team. Communication of any potential settlement is fundamental in moving this situation forward to an acceptable conclusion.
Anyone attending will receive an off-line allowance and the expertise
payment of £xx ......

Warm regards
Dave Henning
Cabin Crew Manager

nurjio

26th Sep 2007, 17:31

er, Dolly. I presume you were cloned. BA pilots get paid more (than VS) granted, but believe me, they work more for it. (hours).

Bleat over,

nurj :}

nurjio

26th Sep 2007, 17:43

...bleat continuing,

...so pro-rata, et al, your gang of 'meerkats' up the front are actually paid more. :ugh:

Savvy?

nurj :}

New_cabin_shoes

26th Sep 2007, 17:54

Forgive me for being "a clone" but I thought that the 900 hour rule applied to all airlines! Would that mean that BA are allowed by the CAA to do only 900 hours per year...the same as Virgin!! Pro-rata, we all work the same amount of hours. Let me know if I'm wrong on this one!:ugh:

sign-it-to-your-room

26th Sep 2007, 18:06

Me too. Dolly made some valid points, forget the pilots (different job), what about what she said about her other half being a purser and getting paid double!

r.s

28th Sep 2007, 12:20

I was chatting to a BTS on the crew bus this morning and she said a new pay offer is to be annouced today! She said it's much better than the last one and they've removed a lot of the conditions that were attached to it, but she couldn't go into detail just in case things were changed at the last minute!

Keep checking iFly

scoobydooo

28th Sep 2007, 13:34

Well the offers are improving but unfortunately this doesnt cut it for me

Just read the latest offer, following on from striker..

2 year deal
4.8% increase in year 1
RPI in year 2
Trip pay scales £5 a trip extra per year for CSS's and FSM's £2.10 for seniors reducing for other roles
FSM's offered part time contracts
Ability to swap standby month with other crew member
Pay and trip pay backdated to April, the original datein return we are expected to

give extra month of standby
Apply for entire annual leave in one hit
give up guaranteed weekend in standby month (you can request 2 days but they may not be granted)Well, I am disappointed with the offer, once again the extra month of standby is in there, though they have taken it out of the headline and added it as an appendix, removal of guaranteed weekend off, also they have added the table of how much back pay one can expect (perhaps to try and sway people like they did last time round). Planning a years leave in advance this will be good for some, difficult for others - also what will happen if promoted - you lose your entire years leave instead of 6 months ? No changes to crew down payments changes !

I believe in Brian Boyd's last statement he said that any improved offer would be accompanied with a strike ballot - this has changed as he now says that a failure to accept this offer (which once again they are recommending - like the last one) will result in the crew being balloted to participate in industrial action - "you will receive your ballot paper in a separate communication" - why has he changed his mind ?
.... I suppose this is to miss any threat of striking over half term !

Now why is Brian Boyd communicating Via Ifly - does he now work for Virgin or something ? You would think so the sort of offers he is recommending and highly recommending.... if this is rejected what would he say about the next offer, "I really really very strongly recommend this one" !

:=Disappointed in this offer when do T&G take control and Mr Boyd get replaced - sure virgin have a job for him :mad:

expected outcome - 60-40 rejection due to the extra month of standby.

VirginBull

28th Sep 2007, 15:28

Hi guys,

not posted here before but just been speaking in detail with someone quite high up re: pay deal. Just to answer some of the quiries already surfacing:

4.8% rise in basic back dated to April 1st

RPI rise in basic next year. (estimated 3.5%)

5 months of standby in 3 yrs (one's you've already done still count)
1 month is a stability block
You can request days off in ALL standby months (If these are granted they are guaranteed, if they are not you get 2 other guaranteed days off)

Crew down would be increased by 4.8% (This is covered in the pay deal documents as 4.8% rise on all variable elements)

No change to airshare.

Crew compliment to remain the same on A346.

Just in case you're wondering I don't work in the office, I'm, crew, and i've voted no all along so far but always taken time to get the full picture. It just seems this time the company has started to listen. They are giving us the previous deal with no strings attached which as far as I can tell when talking to crew downroute is what we've been after. Hope this helps.

VirginBull

28th Sep 2007, 15:31

Also forgot to mention;

The way part time contracts are given will stay the same for everyone except that any FSM that has been in FSM rank for 10 or more years will be automatically entitled to apply for 70% or 50% contracts. As far as I can see this can only be good for us as more room at the top for promotions.

scoobydooo

28th Sep 2007, 16:34

VirginBull I totally agree with your points, at last a serious offer, now if the company had started here they would have so much more respect from the crew instead we have taken 5 months to get to the first sensible offer. But we must look forward and not back right, so my take on this is - this is the first sensible offer - from here we move forward with negotiations.

I hear what you are saying re standby and request for 2 days off - last time they wanted to add another month of standby and remove guaranteed weekend off - in effect this is what is in this offer just worded differently - lets be realistic - I cant seem them granting peoples request for DO over the weekend, that's when sickness is highest and they need most standby cover and that's why they are trying to get rid of it, therefore I totally believe that once we give up the guaranteed weekend on a SB month it will be lost forever. :{

My error on crew down payment, so they will increase 4.8% too - WOW so that's worth about how much extra....!!

As for crew compliment staying the same on the A346 - this isn't something extra - it was a bloody cheek for them to suggest it in the last offer anyway - a bit like saying and when you get promoted we will pay you your new wage from the day you are promoted - its not them giving anything its just them not trying to take something else away like in the forst offer.

Again, this is by far the best offer so far, now lets start some serious negotiations.

bcf&gloves

28th Sep 2007, 16:53

I have to agree and think that this is a good offer to start negotiations, but lets see!
I think it's trip pay that really needs to be looked at, as this is what makes up crews salary, just ask anyone who works for another airline about the flight pay and you will see what I mean, they will either be on flight pay or a much higher sector pay!
As for the crew member remaining, I don't think that this will happen, I wouldn't be surprised if they just reduce the crew complement on the A346 anyway! Sorry if I sound negative, but at the end of the day they'll do what they want anyway!

shortm

28th Sep 2007, 20:37

During our briefing this morning one of the management team came in to explain the pay deal.

My initial reaction to a 4.8% increase on basic pay was positive. However, they have then detailed the increased trip pay (FSM & CSS by 30% and juniors by 9%). Apparently this is to reflect their management role on board the aircraft - I thought that was what their higher salary was for.

They have also said that FSMs who have been with Virgin for 10 years will automatically be entitled to part time to thank them for their loyalty. Not everyone who's been with Virgin for 10 years, just FSMs.

It seems that the deal has been written with a much greater advantage to the FSMs. When I first heard 4.8% on basic I was really pleased. Having read those two bits above I now feel as if I'm not really all that important to the company and they aren't bothered about rewarding me for my skills on board or loyalty to Virgin as I'm not an FSM

There seems to be a bit of a split, with FSMs saying to vote yes but cabin crew (especially long serving MAN crew) saying vote no. CSSs are a bit caught in the middle as they can obviously see themselves becoming FSMs soon and so benefiting, but remember being juniors etc.

Have a feeling it might be accepted just because of the large number of FSM/CSS as opposed to CC that are Union members. Oh, and they've thrown in the old sweetener that if we accept it then we'll have the backdated pay before Christmas. If we reject it we won't.

Virginfun

28th Sep 2007, 21:37

Its only a two year deal so in April 08 you the next pay deal will start!

I think this offer is really good and will accept it.

For those of you that are negative I hope you gave your feedback to the managers over the past few weeks!

alwaysdoyourbest

28th Sep 2007, 21:51

Hi shortm,

Just to let you know from me looking at the pay offer on I/Fly, part time is being offered to those FSM's that have been an FSM for 10 years plus. I think thats fantastic for those who have been at Virgin for probably well over 15 years. Don't forget that will open up promotion for more crew.

Also on another note i have just seen on I/Fly that new morgage quotation letters from virgin will now include 5,000 pounds in our down route allowances, that is also good news for many of us!!!

Virginfun

28th Sep 2007, 21:58

Yeah thats really good news as well!!

This is a good pay deal and both sides benefit, lots of FSM will jump at chance for reduced rosters then more promotion for lots of us!

bcf&gloves

28th Sep 2007, 21:59

But it's still means that we will get paid less than any other airlines crew! And the reason is that we'll still only get £40 for a round trip, when other airlines would earn more than that for 1 sector. So it still means crew will pick and choose their flights depending on the allowances paid.

I think that this is a very clever move by Virgin to offer such an attractive deal to FSM and CSS's as they will then obviously encourage the crew to accept the offer! Oh well maybe this will be the thing that makes me hang up my wings! I love my job, but I can't realistically keep earning the money I am at the moment:sad:

Virginfun

28th Sep 2007, 22:01

For the hours we work I think the pay is good.

Lets face it how much would make you happy??

Im sure all the other airlines say the same thing about there pay too!

alwaysdoyourbest

28th Sep 2007, 22:37

Just been working this out and thought all CC and SCC should think about these numbers, when talking about Virgin weighting the pay deal towards the FSM's and CSS's,

4,500 cabin crew in total at Virgin (Roughly)

If i'm correct 3000 union members (That's very good)

How many crew in each rank!

FSM's Max 450
CSS's Max 900 (you double the FSM rank)
SCC Not sure
CC Not sure
IFBT's Not sure
National crew (500 max, not in the union if i'm correct)

so as you can see there are far more members in the SCC,CC and IFBT ranks.

FSM's and CSS's max members 1350 (Not all FSM's and CSS's can be members)
All other ranks 1650

Please look at these Figures

Virginfun

28th Sep 2007, 22:40

and look at the figures VS are offering then look at the figures from the revenue VS make.

This deal is good considering the low profit they made this year.

Everyone vote YES and lets get the talks over with because its boring online hearing the same stuff all every flight.

alwaysdoyourbest

28th Sep 2007, 23:02

Virginfun,

I have to agree with what you said lets take the offer and move on,

just to say my last post was only to give some people on here facts about figures, as they were suggesting there were more members in the FSM and CSS rank and that was why Virgin made the trip pay for those two ranks slightly higher which can not be the case!!

Lets take this much improved offer and move on!

Remember pay talks again before April 2009

scoobydooo

29th Sep 2007, 06:45

Vote Yes !! - Are you having a laugh !? This is where negotiations begin properly with the company

Interesting how the last few posts advocating how good the deal is are from brand new probationary posters - both opf which registered the same day the deal was announced. I smell a rat.

Given how the companies terrible offers have all been kicked in to touch and now finally we have what should have been the starting point now is the time to start negotiations. Voting yes would be playing straight into the managements hands. Its 2nd rate car salesmen tactics, start with horrendous offers and "play negotiate" all the way up to what your original starting price was going to be anyway. Then the customer (in this case the crew) believe they have done well and in the background the salesperson (management) are laughing all the way to the bank.

Current offer with no extra standby, revised trip pay and then I'll think about a yes. In short we are still having to give an extra month of standby for FREE ! The cost of living and RPI rise means we are no better off financially.
:=

shortm

29th Sep 2007, 10:27

AlwaysDoYourBest, Can I just ask, are those figures fact or your assumptions ? If they are fact I would be interested to know the source. Not saying that you are wrong at all, just would like to know where the figures came from.

The other thing to say is that, as a MAN based crew member, we probably have a slightly different take on the pay offer. FSMs with 10 years service getting part time - at MAN we have juniors with over 10 years service, surely they have shown as much loyalty to the company ? Additionally, an awful lot of the FSMs here are already part time so saying that it will open up promotion really doesn't apply to us either.

Personally I haven't decided whether to vote yes or no. However, as I said in my previous post, it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth that all the really good things on offer are for FSMs/CSSs. Doesn't make me feel particularly valued.

Have to say though, that being able to book leave for the whole year is fantastic news to me.

virginmary

29th Sep 2007, 20:15

think you should check the pay deal it is 4.8% and I have calculated that CSS get the most % in trip pay

scoobydooo

30th Sep 2007, 11:59

wow another probationary pruner - so many popping up on this topic who are very pro the deal ....

anyway re % increase on trip pay...

FSM current £45 next 50 then 60 - so that's a 11% increase this year, and over 2 years it's a 33% increase
CSS 40, next £45 then £50 - so that's a 13% this year, 25% increase over 2 years.

Perhaps it's just possible that you are both correct but referring to different years - CSS more % in year one FSM more % over 2 years.

UN Peacekeeper :ok:

Virginfun

30th Sep 2007, 18:25

vote yes!!!

Then in a few months time we can move onto next years pay talks!!

Its getting really boring now!

YESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYES

rubyrocks118

30th Sep 2007, 18:44

Did i miss something......... Did the paydeal say that our downroute allowances are going to be taxed from next year :eek:, how does that work then and where did you get that info from

thanks

back2front

30th Sep 2007, 19:05

Sorry but a NO from me...

speedmarque

30th Sep 2007, 19:05

Hi All at VS,

I was an FSM until 2005. I now earn MORE as a main-crew member (junior) at BA on Shorthaul LHR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not boasting, I love VS crew and would probably be there still with you if the company paid enough.

FIGHT for what you are worth VS crew!!!! The gap between BA and you is ludicrous and insulting to you.

Some main crew at BA have a £20k basic because we have increments for long service. Why should a new joiner/newly promoted person earn the same as someone who has been in the rank 10 years???

VS are taking the p...!

Virgin crew are some of the best in the industry.......and to be brutally honest I would rather sit next to many of you in an emergency than some of the crew here at BA with 30 years service!!!!!!!!!

FIGHT VS FOR WHAT YOU ARE WORTH.

XXXXX Good Luck and lots of love.

pokergirl

30th Sep 2007, 22:05

The pay deal didnt state that allowances are going to be taxed as it is the inland revenue that will be implementing this. Meaning losing on all allowances from next year. So despite wanting this negotiation to be over so we can get on with what we are good at, accepting a pay deal at only 4.8 means with the taxation we are losing out in all ways!!!!!!!:ugh:

scoobydooo

1st Oct 2007, 00:43

So VirginFun you're voting yes becasue it's getting boring now !! That sounds like someone who is not in it for the longhaul... so to speak, the argument is about as productive as someone saying VOTE No becasue we might get more that way.

So we vote NO in massive majority against the companies poor offers and at the first sign of a half good offer you want to throw the towel in because you are bored - please see that this is the time to start working togethor. The management have regained a little respect with this offer - they are now willing to listen to us and take us seriously but people are suggesting throwing the towel in the pool ??? Human behaviour baffles me sometimes. :ugh:

Anyway for in depth thoughts on the offer once again there is a poster on cabincrew DOT com that has written some stuff about the offer, posted below.....

WARNING - Might take 10 mins to read it's a bit long.....

Having spent a bit of time now researching and taking into account various sources of information I am now in a position to offer my thoughts on your thoughts :-)

Obviously we are all aware how long it has taken for us all (the crew and the company) to get this far in the negotiation process - it's a time consuming process and it is only naturally that people are starting (or a long time ago) get sick of the whole thing - I know I am however I am also aware that, "Rome was not built in a day".

Those who have worked for the company for a long period of time or indeed those who have recently joined and intend to work for us for a long period of time then how long this takes is not an issue - but getting it right is.

Why have we taken so long to get to this point ?

If we look historically at all the offers to date I think it is clear to see the answer. Excluding the current offer, every other offer to date had been totally unacceptable - perhaps ;

the company knew this and it is a tactic to drag the whole thing out such that people start to lose the will to pursue it any further
If the company "stalled" with poor offers it would be in a position to offer a large carrot to crew - offer the backdated pay before Christmas promise again, same as last time round.
maybe the company is so out of touch with it's crew that they really genuinely thought the crew would go for any of the previous offers.Well those are three answers I have pondered - I know which ones I believe to be true.

What would you do if you were a manager and had a large workforce and had to undertake payrise negotiations ?

There are several ways to skin a cat - You have been allocated a budget of £X for the negotiations, anything you can keep from this budget is a bonus to the company (and perhaps your negotiating team). Do you start by offering the full budget - no. no one does, if they are buying a car, house, dog the seller always pitches high and the buyer low...

So we had the first string of offers, each with appalling conditions and told after each one that there will be no further improvements or negotiations and this is the final offer. Each offer should gradually improve in the hope that at some point more and more of the workforce will feel that the negotiations have either;

A) Achieved the goals that individual had in mind - do you know what your personal goals are in the negotiations ?
B) The offers have reached a point where they will not improve any further
C) I just dont care anymore I'm sick of it and a the backdated pay will be handy for ChristmasBare with me I know I might be teaching "suck eggs"

So eventually due to either A,B or C or a combination of the above a majority vote is carried through. Now there has been a slight deviation from the above tactic in our case - the final offer (before the current one) introduced a few extra appalling conditions - the removal of aircrew on the 600, the modification to airshare and all the other attached strings - naturally it is rejected, now a new offer is presented following the management probing and apparently trying to establish why we have been rejecting offers (Did they really not Know ?)

So our current offer has removed many of the previous conditions and has targeted specific roles who have influence on/over the workforce in their day to day role - this is a very clever move by the company - they are aware that some FSM's and CSS's are speaking with crews about the offers - by targeting said roles with better conditions they are hoping that the message from said individuals will change - also they are effectively targeting a set group with the conditions that will hopefully carry a strong % of votes.

still with me ;-)....... The above is my take on the situation that has developed and a bit of thought regarding the current situation, now lets look at the offer comprehensively.

This is by far the best offer to date, this was also probably driven home by all the poor conditions that have accompanied each offer so far - especially the last one and the removal of conditions with this offer.

Now re the current offer - Does it achieve the goals of your vote - what you wanted your union to achieve on your behalf ? If not then A) above has not been fulfilled, However the new offer brings C) into the equation Xmas money and well there is probably a bit of B) lingering too -this is all taking far too long.

The offer -

Basic Rise - A rise of 4.8% in Year 1- no doubt about it this is a good offer, it is above current RPI of 4.1% great news.
Year 2 - the rise will be inline with RPI again -

The company has used illustration figures of 3.5% for all of its tables attached to the offer. RPI is forecast to be lower next year than at present. Forecasts have it at circa 3% though the lower the government can get it the better, this will be established through a change primarily in CPI and interest rates, looking at a graph back to 1999 we have followed the US on interest rates and they have now begun cutting rates. This means it will not be long before our rates fall in line with the US meaning our RPI will fall also therefore I would like to see the company change the offer to reflect YEAR 2 pay rise as fixed % e.g. 3.5% minimum OR RPI whichever is higher ( as has been said above if the government could get RPI down to 2% that would be our year 2 payrise under the current offer)

(source of data ttp://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article2183.html (http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article2183.html))

Trip Pay - Trip pay has been increased in the following fashion - higher percentages to FSM's and CSS's due to the extra managerial role they undertake - the table from the offer is here though I have added percentages to show the % gain over 1 year and 2 years. Unfortunately I feel the trip pay is still less than I would like to see. The last offer offered 15% over 2 years to each role, this should be reinstated to the roles which are only achieving 7-10% gain over 2 years - whislt still reflecting the extra workload of CSS and FSM.

Format Role, Current pay, Year 1 Increase, Year 2 increase

FSM£45¬¬ £50/ 11%£ ¬¬ £60/33%
CSS£40¬¬ £45 / 13%¬¬ £50 / 25%
SCC£37.40 ¬¬ £39.50 / 6%¬¬£41 /10%
CC/IFBT £36.40¬¬ £38.50 / 6%¬¬£40 / 10%
IFBT+5 £37.40¬¬£39.50 / 6%¬¬ £40 / 7%

Part time for 10 years Service FSM's

In Order to recognise and reward experience in their management role. with such an offer there needs to be a process that ensures an FSM can come back to fulltime employment if they so wish. Many firms have offered part time but once the employee takes it there have been cases where they have been unable to be reinstated as full time and the company has used this to reduce costs. Imagine several FSM's going part time and being denied the opportunity to return to full time work, in the interim the company just gets CSS's to work up - the outcome is the company avoids paying a full FSM wage and a CSS operate the role for less, a senior works as a CSS etc etc - There need to be procedure in place that protects against this. e.g. for each PT FSM contract offered an FSM course is offered to a CSS.

Looking at the big picture it is disappointing that "loyalty" as the topic is called in the offer is not offered to all crew members who have been loyally in the company for 10 years.

Crew down payments

Crew down payments have not been addressed on an individual basis, this was a target mention by the union which they have failed to address to a satisfactory outcome (this was another one of my vote goals). Crew down payments will be increased by 4.8% in line with the basic - I personally feel this needs readdressing in order to promote the correct number of crews.

Working up Payments

Similar to above - requires to be addressed to promote correct crew levels - see example above of part time FSM, CSS working up etc

Monthly Standby

As has been mentioned there is the extra month of standby though as Babs has highlighted the stability block means it is the same as the standby block offered to part time crew - if must fit to the confines of your roster. This does make planning and childcare a little easier to plan however for commuters it is still a pain. However here is the catch - Only one in 5 (in 3 years) has to be a stability block. I can imagine the following happening - 1. Stability blocks will never be issued in peak seasons - when its hardest to commute 2. the stability block will always be your last block of 5. So what happens when you are promoted does you standby count remain the same ? I recall in one deal they spoke about resetting it to zero on promotion - if they did that you would never receive a stability block (as hopefully within 3 years one would be promoted ) - grey area but just thinking about it.

Loss of Guaranteed Weekend on Standby Month.

This is to be replaced by 2 requested days off - which the company does not have to honour. Standby requirements are generally highest when sickness levels are highest - weekends - or the days that wrap around them also - hence virgins current definition of weekend in the current standby rules. I very much doubt anyone requesting a weekend off in a standby month will be granted it - that is why the company is trying to get rid of it - their demand is highest at this point.

-edit to add - how about some compromise - We do the extra month of standby to make 5 in 3 years and in return the company makes 2 of them stability blocks and we keep weekends off, or 3 of them stability blocks and we go to requested days off for standby.

Request 12 months of leave

For some this will be great for others not so great, again a grey area. The offer talks about having a monthly view on 12 months standby - what will take precedence the booking of your leave requests OR the standby view i.e. do you work your leave around standby or vice versa. Also at present if you are promoted your leave no longer has to be honoured and you can potentially lose your 6 months of leave - in the new method could you lose your whole years leave ?

Profits/Airshare

Someone mentioned profits being low, we have already established that this is due to the company heavily investing in itself - this is great for the company but not so much for us, every pound spent on a new club house is less in our pockets because the company does not achieve its targets for profit share.. in short we get less. A change to the airshare system as the aircrew negotiated would be prudent here, their airshare is calculated on company turnover not profit

This years figures profits this year dropped from 77.5mil to 6.6mil, sales achieved record levels by 13% from £1.88B to £2.4B - pax increased 10.5% - Nigeria losses cost the company £19.9 Million but it's sales rose from £24million to £83million)

An agreement like the pilots have would be in our best interests.

Union Recommendation

The union is strongly recommending we accept this offer, yet they also recommended the last appalling offer. Unfortunately I dont feel I can follow the recommendation of the union following their last recommendation.

Summary

In summary the above are my thoughts and my thoughts only - I feel unable to accept this offer as it has not achieved all my goals, the offer of the back pay (which incidentally is not not back pay to date it is up till the end of November so includes the next 2 months) doesn't interest me it is a short term gain, rather than big picture.

I would like the union to revisit the company addressing the points i have raised.
remember to view the offer in isolation, not comapring it to previous offers and ask yourself, "does it achive what I was hoping for before any offers came out ?"

Edited by eyesnears - 30 September 2007 at 4:32pm

virgin dolly

1st Oct 2007, 11:04

Virgin's new pay deal.......? OH Dear....! Not good...!:=

FSM's loyalty package to go part-time after 10 years..? Can I ask what about the other loyal crew (CSS,SCC,CC) that have worked for ten years or more in their rank. Why can't they also go part-time after ten years....! Not that many would as who can afford it..! But why only offer FSM's part-time....?

Wrong, big mistake Virgin, please try and stop this sweetie talk by starting at the top of the cabin crew chain.

By the way when I attend these meetings I will be talking about "Variable manning" and "Crew down".......this is where management are making their mistakes.

Variable manning..no more Please,
Crew down..........no more please,

Now wouldn't these make great banners....!:D

What will the public think when they find out that Richard has been cutting corners to make a few more million and the passengers and crew are the ones that suffer.:=

Regards

Virgin Dolly xx:ok:

Virginfun

1st Oct 2007, 13:52

I have been at VS for 9 years now, so am in for the longhaul, thanks!

Great Raymondo

1st Oct 2007, 17:07

Absolutely bonkers. I understand the frustration crew feel but I think the bigger picture is being lost here. Challenge what's been offered? Absolutely.. but to a point where it is acceptable to both parties. This isn't and the imacts of strike action will be huge.

I find it quiet saddening that some crew are voting with having no idea of the potential consequences. Downsizing is the least that will happen which could mean stgoing from a crew salary and a permanent job today to nothing. This will also affect everyone on the ground, in the offices, possibly overseas if underperforming routes are dropped. It's not just VAA staff that are affected, any supplier that supplies services or product will also be hit.

The message that crew are the face and the most important people to the airline are drilled in from the first day of training. Crew are the end product and this is what passengers see. However, this is the tiny tip of the iceberg - the operation of getting aircraft off the ground day to day is the rest of that iceberg and it's huge.

It needs to be factual and realistic, not emotional, unrealistic and damaging.

Virginfun

1st Oct 2007, 17:15

Well said!!

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

sign-it-to-your-room

1st Oct 2007, 22:19

Just out of interest.........
What was the outcome of the BA cabin crew strike?
How many Office/Ground folk lost jobs because of those darn crew?
Suppliers? What is their take on it?
Genuine question here! :confused:

virgin dolly

2nd Oct 2007, 13:24

Dear all,
When the BA strike took place in 97 no one lost their jobs. the only people who lost their jobs further down the line were middle management.
My partner works for BA and had just joined the company. He was not fully informed why the crew had been fighting for so long with the management re pay and working conditions.
I showed my Ba friends the new pay deal and they were shocked and found it laughable....
What we need to remember is that I have had no annual increment for 14 years (BA get them every year on top of inflation) and a senior c/c member who becomes CSS after 4/5 years is on the same pay as me where i have more or less 10 years more experience.
Where is the loyalty in that? In the new pay deal we find that FSM's will get a loyalty package and be offered part time as part of this.
What about the rest of the crew regardless of rank with 10 years+ service?
Where we are being used are; crew down/variable manning/working up payments and non annual increment payments.
OK the new deal is better but falls miles short of what we deserve. We have been used for too long and it's time to stand up for ourselves. With more part time FSM's, CSS's will be working up more and Virgin will be saving money!
We should not be working crew down FULL STOP/variable manning as this should only happen during disruption will the full agreement of the union.
Do you realise how much Virgin is saving each day by not putting 2 c/members on a flight? £££££££££££££'s!!!!!!!
We are forced to work under more stress and more the fool us b/c we have put up with it!
Under UK law every one in the union who agrees to strike cannot be disciplined by the company. It is their right to voice their opinion.#
Please FSM's and CSS's attend these meetings and get your voices heard.
REMEMBER this is the thin edge of the wedge and if we give in now rest assured the company will keep cutting and cutting....
PLEASE SAY NO TO THIS NEW PAY DEAL and let's go back to the table and fight for a REAL DEAL which we all deserve.
Do you really think that RB will let Virgin Atlantic go down the pan when he has the start of Virgin Red, the success of Virgin Blue and where his pax will have the opportunity to fly around the world on a VS aircraft?

Regards

Dolly:ok:

pokergirl

2nd Oct 2007, 14:00

I agree virgindolly. I am a fsm but have only been in rank for two years. As stated in earlier posts there are some elements of the deal which i like. However I do feel that once again the company has shot themselves in the foot by rewarding loyalty for only one rank. We have some fantastic crew who keep the service standards up with ten years service + , where is there reward. I have friends in BA also and i really think that there pay increments are spot on . A girl i commuted with the other day is part time with ba after 14years service on the new contract and comes out with more than me as an fsm . Because ba have taken the purser from the upper deck and reduced the amount of pursers required on the 747's her chances of being promoted have dwindled so in recognition of this she is now on the top of her pay increment. She has no management responsibilties at all and as i said clears more than a full time fsm with us!!!!!!!!! NO justice. I havent been able to attend these meetings at the base but i hope voices are heard and listened to.

virgin dolly

2nd Oct 2007, 14:24

I'm booked in this week to have a meeting with the management I may be one voice but I hope to be heard, will update you all with my feedback.

Regards,

Virgin Dolly:ok:

Tags

2nd Oct 2007, 15:02

Virgin Dolly,

As per my post (#74), there are a few parts to your contract that differ to that of the BA crews.

You need to compare apples with apples. Speaking to a colleague downroute the other day, he mentioned he had several C/C friends in BA. Their package is different to yours in many ways. For instance they don't get private healthcare, LHR longhaul C/C can request only 2 trips a year, (& can't swap trips) and their concessions are extremely limited compared to ours - that are perhaps the best in the industry.

Would you give these items up to get closer to the financial reward that your BA colleagues earn?

virgin dolly

2nd Oct 2007, 16:59

Dear Tags,

I would give up many of my concessions as I don't use them and my colleges don't either.

We are talking now of the older crew who have families, homes and mortgages to pay for.

Yes it would be a loss to lose health care but I have spoken to many crew who have found it hard to use our health care system. We are taxed on our health care.

Ba main crew get 2 request a year, pursers 3 and CSD's 4. if the request is not achieved then it goes back in to the system until all of them have been used. I have been working for 14 years and still do not get my requests. I know many crew with many more years senior that still only get 5 to 6 requests a year.

BA have a back to back flight that your are able to swap which you get every month more or less. I understand that Virgin was looking in to this but would not pay the £70 LHR payment. V crew would love this as many crew commute long distances and I don't think the crew would worry about the extra payment that comes with a BA back to back.

My partner earns twice a much as me for doing the same job and thank the lord pays more of the mortgage than me.

Many crew do not use the 7 free flight that comes in our package and is generally used only by the new crew who come inboard.

We do not what to go crew down any more for £10, £20 it not worth the stress....we don't get paid enough. we want agreements like BA and we are using them as a comparison to move further forward in these pay issues. Ba don't go crew down because of a union agreement and if they do get paid
15 times what we do.

Overall I speak for most of the crew that would prefer to lose some benefit and to be rewarded financially.

Regards,

Virgin Dolly :ok:

Virginfun

2nd Oct 2007, 17:02

I am just a happy crew member who is happy with the deal considering the current airline situation.

I got a good job which allows me to pay the bills everymonth, I travel all around the world on cheap flights thanks to my employer and enjoy what I do.

BA this, BA that, they are recruiting now so go and work for them where you will get one free ticket after seven years. Good old BA who get paid this and that!!!

I hope you expressed your views direct to managers when they were at check in over the past few weeks because they are the ones who are sat round the table who will listen and not random people who read this forum!!!

When you started at Virgin did you take on the job thinking the salary was fine?? or did you take on the job thinking in a few years you would get a ten thousand pay rise?? what were your thoughts when you accepted the job??

Sorry, its a YES from me.

TightSlot

2nd Oct 2007, 18:54

Posting in a Large Font and messing around with formatting doesn't make your point more valid (or necessarily easier to read).

Posts that say nothing more than 'Vote No' or "Vote Yes" are a waste of everybody's time and will be deleted.

Now that we know all of that, please could it stop

Virginfun

2nd Oct 2007, 20:35

hang if i remember correctly on round 2 of the pay talks it was mentioned that some staff travel perks would be removed to accomodate the request for more money.

There was up roar from crew who would lose some of there staff travel!!!

''Many crew do not use the 7 free flight that comes in our package and is generally used only by the new crew who come inboard

Overall I speak for most of the crew that would prefer to lose some benefit and to be rewarded financially''

I dont think staff travel should be lost!! I wonder what the commuters would say if we lost the agreement with BA????

pokergirl

3rd Oct 2007, 09:43

Its not fust BA that commuters use you know virginfun. So therefore half the company workforce would prob have to leave if those tickets were taken away. But it doesnt cost virgin money for commuters to get those tickets so it would be a time wasting exercise.

Yes we are lucky , once again as ive said before we have the opportunity to be flexible with our rosters, excellent staff travel for those who want to use it..healthcare etc...

But because of the way the company have played this there is understandably alot of resentment. Yes there has to be compromise to come to a deal that suits all which is nigh on impossible because its always going to affect someone in some sort of a way.

I mentioned Ba earlier because yes it does insult me personally now as a fsm that a ccm is earning more than me, with all the responsibiltys that i have.

bcf&gloves

3rd Oct 2007, 11:30

I'm sorry but I totally disagree with you Virginfun! The salary that we take home is not acceptable. The allowances that so many crew don't spend whilst down route to take home to supplement their income shouldn't have to.

I think that BA is a perfect company to use as an example, they pay their crew well, there staff turnover is minimal, and the crew have a voice, with the backing of a strong union. What do we have very low crew morale, high staff turnover, no respect from the company and a union who seems to think we should just now roll over and accept this frankly rubbish offer!

I have worked for several airlines, and have to say that whilst our benefits package is fantastic, the important thing that is salary is shocking especially when you look at what we get paid compared to our counter parts working for other airlines, be that Easyjet, BA, Ryanair the list goes on..... they all get paid a lot more than we do!

tinkerbelle

3rd Oct 2007, 12:25

Virgin fun - you live in a dream world:D By the sounds of it you are being paid a pilots salary if you have enough money left every month to pay your bills and come out HAPPY and smiling. I have been with Virgin quite a few years and still every month I struggle to find the money to pay my mortgage, my bills and get to work (this will be even more of a struggle now as the fuel costs have risen). I never have any money left for a rainy day and I try so hard down route to save my allowances at every opportunity, even though this allowance is for food and water whilst down route.

I personally think that you are not a crew member but management watching the pprune postings and replying to those people who are negative about the pay deal with something positive to get the deal through := You have already been warned about posting in BOLD LARGE letters and airing you view which way the votes should go - let people decide what they want to vote - we are the ones that have to live on the salaries!!!

BlueTui

3rd Oct 2007, 12:29

Each airline has its positives.
Charter- well paid lh/sh best of both worlds but frowned upon and hard work
BA LHR= SH or LH Well paid
BA LGW= SH/LH Lower paid than LHR and charter but faster promotion
VS= only LH good consessions poor pay, better promotion than charter and BA
Low cost= SH only, very fast promotion, at home every night

Like I said each has points that suits someone better than others.

There will always be things we can change within our respective companies and things we cannot, we all need the wisdom to realise what that is. Every company has perks the others dont and I hate this saying but cannot word it any more diplomatically if you dont like it move on!

Virgin will never pay what BA do ever comparing the two is like comparing chalk and cheese! their pay structure and conditions stem from the good old days and they have retained most of them, it is easier to keep a good thing than get a good thing especially in todays markets.

There is no company that is 100% perfect for anyone, just companies close to it. My advice is find yours and stick to it.

If you want the glamour of constant long haul and to be able to say "I work for Virgin Atlantic" then stay, If you want a big increase in salary or terms and conditions then go to BA LHR or if you want even faster promotion go to EZY

scoobydooo

3rd Oct 2007, 12:50

BlueTui - you have a very strong union at TUI which is good and helps and protects you guys.

The Union at virgin appears weak and the company is pretty much walking all over it, at least that is how many of it's members feel i.e. the fit nicely in the managements back pocket !

As for moving on, been done to death - I imagine the argument was probably even used when the Virgin Pilots nearly went on strike - the unions said,

Pilots want a two-year deal worth 12 per cent above inflation and a 3.5 per cent boost to pensions. Pilots' representatives argue that Virgin's flight crew are paid 25 per cent less than their colleagues at British Airways (comparing apples with apples Tags ;))

Yes, the pilots could of said, ho hum ok I'm leaving Virgin off to BA because they pay more, but they didn't they fought for what they believed. We work for the same company and are fighting for what we believe also.

The outcome of their negotiations, well the company said, Virgin Atlantic's flight operations director, conceded that the airline was "not a market leader" for pay but said it could not afford a bigger rise.

Outcome, this bit is hearsay I dont know the full facts ( perhaps a Flight crew member could confirm) - after lots of negotiations the pilots decided strike was the only resort left - the strike was arranged and called off at the last minute and an outcome satisfactory to the pilots was achieved.

The lesson we can see in that case is the management wouldnt even negotiate properly with the Pilots what hope is there for cabin crew - so we may well have to go the distance too.

virgin dolly

3rd Oct 2007, 16:54

I'm thinking that you don't work for Virgin and that you are management of a high level. I like the way you are looking at our situation from both sides and you comments are very much appreciated.

I like working for Virgin thats why I have been with them for over 14 years.
I do talk about BA a lot but I'm only using them as a comparison with their pay and union agreements which will must learn from. Yes we will never get pay like BA but with a stronger union and better working conditions with can all move forward in a positive way.

I didn't realize how much resentment was out there with the crew..!, I hope with these meeting that management have set up that they learn from the low morale and no show of confidence.

Regards Virgin Dolly x:ok:

scoobydooo

3rd Oct 2007, 19:05

Below are figures taken from a poster on cabin crew dot com.

I have been working out just how much an average crew member could expect to take home extra per month based on the current offer. The blue table below summarises my findings. It assumes 5 trips per month, that's a 60 a year (the current offer assumes 45 per annum to calculate back pay) so I have been generous. The table does below are my workings - they do not allow for any duty free revenue. Tax & NI are assumed at 30% total. My workings are below though the layout on here is not great

Extra Per Month comparing to current package.

------------------Year 1 ------------ Year 2 ------------ Year 2
------------ -------4.8% ------------ RPI 3.5% ------------ RPI 2%
________________________________________________
FSM-------------81.84------------166.02 -------------- 144.93
CSS-------------68.60------------125.18 -------------- 90.92
SCC-------------45.62------------80.15 ---------------- 62.34
CC---------------39.61 ------------69.53 --------------- 53.71
IFBT-------------47.66 ------------83.71 --------------- 65.27

virgin dolly

4th Oct 2007, 07:53

Dear Scoobydooo,

Thanks for the information on our pay and why were you up at 02.18 this morning posting the above. If your figures are correct our wages will start to go down after two years......So NO for me..!

Regards Virgin Dolly x:ok:

scoobydooo

4th Oct 2007, 16:04

If your figures are correct our wages will start to go down after two years......

No, it's just the increases per year that are shown, so in accordance with the current offer the pay rise is less in the 2nd year - what it will be who knows hence 2 different RPI rows shown (as year 2 is = RPI, not a fixed value, could even be 1%)

Year 1 4.8% Increase
Year 2 3.5% increase (on companies RPI illustration)
Year 2 2% increase based on a 2% Goverment target figure

The table is the extra ££ per month each crew member can expect to take home after each increment that year.

2.18 was local time, in the states that would be erm....9.18pm ! :cool:

virgin dolly

4th Oct 2007, 16:33

Hi Scoobydooo,

Whoops thanks for putting me right..!

Still a no := from me though till our crew down payments go up,up,up and variable manning stops. It's all about profits these days and I'm tied of being used...What is the point of having a positioning sheet for a aircraft when you can't fill the places these days.

Your on the ball Scoobydooo, :D

Virgin Dolly x :ok:

scoobydooo

5th Oct 2007, 18:51

I see the latest view from the roo says there will be no more negotiations if this offer is rejected. I think I can just about count on one hand how many times this has been heard now. :yuk:

I am still at a loss as to why the union has not approached its' members asking what they would accept, ( I know the company have, but it's the unions jobs) failing to do this we will just go round and round in circles with the offers mildly improving each time. How on earth can they represent us when they dont know what we want - are they psychic ?

Issues which need further addressing
SCC,CC & IFBT trip pay
Crew down (including 1)
Variable manning
Airshare related to Turnover not profit
Part time for all 10 Year loyal crews
Length of service related pay (i.e. basic increasing each year)

Anyone know what happened to WDMM, they have gone very quiet - not a word since the offer - do you think the company found out who was behind it and had a stern word ?

back2front

5th Oct 2007, 19:25

I will be writing a strongly worded resigination letter to the union once I have cast my 'NO' vote and the results have been released.

I can't see any point in spending over £100 per year and getting no input into negotiations.

scoobydooo

5th Oct 2007, 20:52

I am in the process of drafting one now, maybe we should make a template one for everyone to send to the man at the top of the Union - If it was recognised now perhaps they might start to ask us what we want.

The company asking us is no use, they wont take any notice anyway - they just pretend to to try and appear be all pink and fluffy !

virginracer

6th Oct 2007, 14:34

Hi everybody,
just thought i had to respond to a couple of recent posts on this thread,

well as to some leaving the union, virgin would like nothing better! without a union they could pretty much do as they please with us that would be a big step back to the dark ages.

Also i was one of the crew that went along to the Park inn hotel at lhr this week to give my views on the pay offer (This was advertised on i-fly and open to everybody who would like to attend) Only six of us bothered to attend, where was everybody else!!!

And i have to say that i have benefited from a couple of things that the union have done for me and everybody else. Firstly i found myself in a spot of bother with virgin (Downroute) and had to attend a Disciplinary hearing, without their support i well could have been out of a job. What about when we got to have our nine days off when we have leave in a month and holiday pay which we now get, and i'm sure there are other things which we now benifit from which we didn't have before the Union

Am i worth more, well yes i am but we all have to be responsible and sensible with where we go now!! so for me i have to vote yes:D

s3483

8th Oct 2007, 09:54

I will be saying NO to the new deal. I just think the new deal shows that Virgin management are still way out of touch with what and how the crew really feel. The feeling that im getting from my last few trips is that the crew are more fed up than ever, its not just about the pay this time but the fact that the company are only recognising loyalty in one rank. There are a lot of loyal crew out there who have been in their ranks for well over ten years and surely they deserve recognition as well. We have to stick together and say NO. Its going to be a tough few months for us all but if we say YES the company will just be laughing at us, they have little respect for us as it is!

s3483

8th Oct 2007, 10:19

Just looked on WDMM website and they have new information dated 7th Oct regarding the pay deal. There is a 'Strong recommendation' to say No.
www.wedeservemoremoney.com (http://www.wedeservemoremoney.com)

pokergirl

8th Oct 2007, 12:37

The problem we have is that crew really dont understand the implications of strike and voting. I have just come back from a trip to which in the briefing a union rep came to talk to us. Alot of the cabin crew were Shocked to find out that they wont get allowances during the strike and that the lhr/lgw bus will stop for us, concessions etc. Some crew were saying they going to vote no for deal then no for strike!!!!!!! Which if that happens all we get is 2%. The message needs to be sent that if you going to vote NO to deal then you have to be 150% behind the strike. And that means losing out for 24 to 48 hrs. But whats 48hrs !!!! If you have questions you need to get answers. This is serious stuff now .

Kasual Observer

8th Oct 2007, 15:46

I have been reading this thread for some time now and I'd like to know if you would permit me to make some observations. Before I get jumped on by some of the regulars because this is my first post and I have only just joined today, please don't let that fool you. I have signed up with a new name solely in order to protect my my anonymity and have been reading Pprune and posting in other forums for many years with another identity.

I am a pilot and I work for Virgin Atlantic. Some of you have mentioned in this thread that you would like to hear how we managed to get ourselves such a good deal three years ago and are trying to compare your fight with the one that we had at that time. The big difference as far as we were concerned was that we had an extremely high number of pilots in the same, single union. In addition, our union representatives had our respect and support.

From what I have seen throughout this period of negotiation between the cabin crew and the company is that you do not have either of those advantages I have mentioned above. Correct me if I am wrong, but you have more than one union representing you all and that the number of cabin crew actually in the unions are no where near the overwhelming percentage that we the pilots had during our dispute with the company. Those two things alone are destined to thwart your objectives in these current negotiations.

Whilst I believe that you are right to negotiate for the best possible terms and conditions that you can get and the company can afford, you have to balance that against the current trading position of the airline and the industry in general. We as pilots have been briefed by management just as the cabin crew have. I would not have expected less from any company that is in the same position as VAA are at the moment.

As pilots we get to hear from and talk to the cabin crew we work with and we are able to provide our own personal perspectives on the concerns that the cabin crew have regarding their pay and conditions as well as their representation through their union. Any action that will disrupt the company will have a knock on effect for all of us and it is in our interests to make sure that our own points of view are heard, even if they are not exactly what you want to know.

One interesting observation is the fact that the cabin crew union membership are still backing their reps. I know of no other union or democratic institution that would back their reps after overwhelmingly rejecting their initial recommendation. If that was not a vote of no confidence in their reps then I do not know what else they need to realise it. Now, having shown that there is no confidence in the cabin crew reps, the reps are again recommending that the revised offer from the company should be accepted, there is a vociferous group who are still advocating a rejection of the final offer. What is even more astounding, this vociferous group are advocating going into a strike with a leadership that will have had not one but two votes of no confidence in their work and recommendations.

I certainly hope that the vociferous group are a tiny minority. I have no idea whether they are or not. However, what the silent majority need to appreciate is that if you thought that taking industrial action without a leadership that instils confidence for the hard slog which would ensue, then you are destined for failure in your objectives. Reading some of the comments on here about it would only be for a few days or whatever shows that there is a naivety from some of the militants that leaves most of us with a bit more worldly experience totally breathless. Lambs to the slaughter doesn't begin to describe what the outcome would be.

No doubt by now, the militants are battling to contain their wrath and angst at what I, simple line pilot, have to say about the current situation. Well, before they all jump on here and make their usual claims of management infiltration or whatever, they have to realise that I and many of my pilot colleagues agree that your terms and conditions need improving. What we are offering is support and advice without the rhetoric that appears to accompany some of the missives that some militants post on here.

I am fairly sure that the company will not improve their offer. All the claims by the innocents who have no real understanding of real world economics with childish rants about how the company has pledged X number of millions for climate change or invested in new aircraft orders or improvements in company infrastructure which in turn, somehow is meant to suggest that the pot is still very full and they should be compared to cabin crew from BA or wherever, are little more than pitiful examples of a childs tantrum and foot stomping in anger.

The only advice I can offer is that you think very carefully what would happen if you managed to stop the flying program for one or two days. The cost to the company would indeed run into the hundreds of millions of pounds. It still would not get your offer increased and more than likely would lead to a downsizing with all the ramifications that entails.

You have a two year offer on the table. It is not perfect but it will now give you two years in which to organise yourselves properly for the next round of negotiation when the current offer eventually expires. If you, the cabin crew, are not able to learn from this experience that you need to have overwhelming support from your members, not just a simple majority and that you need to have one, professional and well trained representative union to negotiate on your behalf, not a combination of less organised unions battling with each other for your union dues, then you will be doomed to failure in the future too.

My advice, for what it is worth, is take the offer and use the next two years to plan your next round of negotiations. Use everything you have learnt and make sure that you organise yourselves properly.

We pilots work closely with you and see and hear the complaints about your terms and conditions. We know that we are much better off that you but that does not mean that we do not care about how you feel. We know that a happy crew reflects on our customers and it is how they perceive our company that generates the money that we all have a fair claim on for providing our services to the company in the first place.

Good luck with the decisions you have to make and remember to visit us and have a chat on those long flights. We appreciate the company and want you to get the best possible deal you can. It's not rocket science but neither is it beyond the realms of possibility to get yourselves organised properly to get your fair share of the pie if you do a good job and keep our passengers coming back for more.

s3483

8th Oct 2007, 16:16

The interesting thing is that once the cabin crew pay deal has been accepted it is then time for the flight crew pay talks to commence.
I can almost guarantee you that the flight crew will get a bigger increase than the cabin crew and this will cost the company a lot more money -but thats ok isnt! We are after all just cabin crew! Its funny because with the last pay deal a few years ago the reps said 'hey dont worry when the next pay talks come round we will be in better position'. I know virgin I have seen this game played for the 12 years that I have been with the company and in two years time when the next pay talks are due to take place there will be other financial commitments like the 787 dreamliners for example and we will be fobbed off with the same old story!

stansdead

8th Oct 2007, 16:47

s3483

I am also a VS pilot. I agree with what Kasual Observer says and am disappointed in your belief that somehow, we pilots want you to accept an offer in order that our pay round goes better.

You have a 2 year deal including back pay. By the time you accept, 2007 will nearly be over and taking into account that this is a 2 year deal backdated to April, your reps will soon be renegotiating the NEW NEW pay deal for you.

In 6 to 9 months time your reps will be going back to the company to restart negotiations again for the next deal. Then is the time to give them a strong mandate for action, not now.

Vote No at all our perils, but do what you think is right. You do deserve more money. We all agree that.

If you threaten strikes, you had better be sure to do it. Otherwise you lose forever.........

My personal view is that not enough of you want a strike and not enough of you are united behind the money aspect of the deal. Such as many people who still live at home that I have spoken to..... sad, but true.

sukigirl

8th Oct 2007, 17:00

I just want to thank kasual observer for his/her comments. Whilst i know many others may not, I agree entirely. I am also a little tired of reading comments including those on the wdmm site that anyone who is not against this pay deal or has any other positive outlook must therefore be undercover virgin management stirring things up.
This isnt a brilliant deal but so much better than where we started from and after all will we ever get what we really want? I have heard some ridiculous suggestions such as 10% rise in basic ..... never gonna happen! We also have quite a low membership of our union, while i dont know the exact figures, but I believe that majority of membership is made up of css and fsm which may be why they get a little favoured in the pay deal, that and the fact there is much more responsibilty in the job role.

s3483

8th Oct 2007, 17:04

Stansdead

I agree with what you are saying. Believe me I do not want to strike and I think is it sad that the company have let it get this far. The crew have never stood together like this and this is a strong indication that a high proportion of the crew are not happy, not just with pay but the way virgin management have little repect for us the cabin crew in general.

With regards to the pilots I know that the majority of you guys are behind us but all Im saying is that you will be shortly commencing your own pay deal, what will be your views then?

stansdead

8th Oct 2007, 17:58

s3483

My personal view is that we pilots will get no more than RPI and perhaps a small concession towards lifestyle. i.e. part time contracts if you want them after xyz years.....

scoobydooo

8th Oct 2007, 18:40

K.O.

That made a nice rational read, I agree with most of your points but would question learning lessons and being ready next time. We have done this so many times,the same role play e.g. 2 years ago and here we are again in exactly the same place.

Now is the strongest the cabin crew have ever been in terms of their demonstration % wise towards the votes. The thought of strike whilst the iron is hot springs to mind (in more ways than one - just to TELL the company, "enough is enough"). For a junior and senior to have come so far against such disgusting results for £39 and £45 Extra a month seems a waste.

Brian Boys is shameful in his recommendation of the last vote, what ounce of respect he has lost and now he can "strongly recommend" the current vote !!?? - the mind boggles.

People must be wondering, "well, he said that last time, he just wants this over with". I would very much hope that someone further up T&G or Amicus/Unite would move him sideways and take the reigns in these negotiations because at the moment it feels like the guy driving the Amicus/Unite horse carriage is doing so without a head !

Thanks for taking the time to write your reply and post it. The feeling at the moment is one of - the company just will not listen to what we want or offer it - what was the straw that broke the camels back in your talks that resulted in a Yes strike ballot, because tight now I and others are starting to feel this will be the only way to get our message across.

Virginfun

8th Oct 2007, 19:38

Thanks Kasual Observer for constructive comments.

I wish that crew saw the bigger picture. Crew are so confused online about what happens next if they strike or if they say no.

It will be a total mess and I think they will end up shooting themselves in the foot.

We have been offered now a good deal and I think it's a good idea to take the money and run, for a few months!!

Fingers crossed for a positive outcome.

Virginfun

8th Oct 2007, 19:40

just read this on WWDM;

Just look on PPRUNE and cabincrew.com and you will see the company have entered the forums with some very poor attempts to take control. For those of you without the time to look through, look at the threads from Virginfun, Virgin Bull and always do your best. Pathetic

I AM NOT A MANAGER I AM CREW!!!!!!

Minnie38

9th Oct 2007, 07:09

First let me say I'm a 'lurker' who has followed this with interest, having a sister who is senior cabin crew.

I am no way connected with Virgin, apart of course from my sister. If you want to flame me please go ahead.

My sister thought it might be a good idea to see, from a passenger point of view, what I feel towards the current situation.

Firstly, I support my sister, and therefore crew, I always will, as I know how hard she and all you guys work.

However, from a passenger point of view we passengers are a fickle lot.

It's easy to say Virgin has lots of money, yes I'm sure it has (whether it's tucked away out of sight or not!), but that money has come from it's passengers, the life blood of the airline. An airline like Virgin is there, after all, to provide transport for passengers to their destinations. Without those passengers there is no airline, simple.

I regularly fly B&S routes (the routes you guys just love to fly lol) and there is increasing competition, some of it attractive, on those routes. I was very tempted to fly with a competitor for my latest trip but my sister talked me round lol.

Now, admittedly, UC is the best in it's field (OK, I'm biased but I really do think that), but the charters are now offering very attractive PE and economy, especially on the B&S routes, more and more previous Virgin customers are trying these new alternatives. What happens if there is a strike? Passengers will remember having their long awaited holidays disrupted or even ruined, and believe me they will switch to the competitor(s) for their next trips.

Where does that leave Virgin? Cutting back of routes and crew? Who knows, but realistically if passengers leave Virgin I'm sure we can all guess what happens to an airline with reduced passenger capacity.

Insurance does not always cover passengers in the event of strikes, a fair number of policies have clauses in them that state they will not cover in the event of strike action. Business passengers are fine, most of them are not paying out of their own pocket, but holiday passengers are the ones who will be hit hardest.

It's easy to take a selfish view, on both sides of the fence, but the thing everyone needs to be careful of is if you do strike, you must be prepared to take the consequences and those consequences might not be what you think you'll achieve at the outset.

I wish you all the best of luck and hope you do get what you want but please don't take it out on the passengers if you don't get it.

Sam

sign-it-to-your-room

9th Oct 2007, 09:57

I have to admit that I feel scared now. I too have spoken to crew who are going to vote no to strike because they are confident that their colleagues will vote yes and they can still keep their wages.! So hello 2%!

I think we should listen to our pilots and take note. I am voting yes. I believe that if we are as dtrong as we say we are then for the first time there will be major changes in next pay talks.

AND NO I AM NOT VA MANAGEMENT.

scoobydooo

9th Oct 2007, 10:25

SITYR - I would love to have a positive outlook and agree with your comments however;

I believe that if we are as strong as we say we are then for the first time there will be major changes in next pay talks.

Just will not happen, next time round it will be exactly the same, it's a virgin chosen management tactic , has worked for years and will continue to do so until the chain is broken.

Show me some productive moves by the Virgin Union reps (to perhaps bet Boyd out) to get it right next time and I will change my stance - but at this point I am willing to make a wager that next pay talks will be exactly the same. It's proven that history repeats itself and the saying "if it aint broken dont fix it" stands - why change it, it's working for the management- they get us everytime and people say it will be better next time.

The pattern is the same as last time, several poor offers, then not so poor offers targeting specific roles (CSS & FSM) , everyone you will get your back pay before Christmasn and hey presto a 47/53 (or similar) vote in favour - exactly the same this time round I fear. In short we are so easy to manipulate and walk all over when it comes to pay talks.

Therefore I am unable to just give up in the hope that "ahhh next time will be better".

I agree, listen to the pilots, listen to everyone - weigh up all the information available and then make a decision. Also note whilst KO has been kind enough and taken the time to provide us with his/her insight it is the opinion of 1 person - I know other FC who say keep going.

Remember everyone, gather all the facts, analyse and decide if the current offer meets your personal objective.

As Orange would say, "it's good to talk" and that is what we must keep doing, the back pay will come, you will still be entitled to it, if it takes longer it takes longer. When the company says there will be no more talks (as we have heard before...is it 4 times now ?) it is the company that is backing us into a corner. Why oh why is it not the union calling the shots :ugh:

sign-it-to-your-room

9th Oct 2007, 10:33

But Scooby are you not scared that most crew will say NO to strike and we will end up with a piss poor pay deal?

God I wish I had your confidence in the crew and could almost guarantee that we will go all the way, but something tells me that this wont happen.

I really need the money that we are being offered (especially back pay for Xmas), so I admit that I am probably a weak link in the chain, but I also feel that the niaive crew who will vote no to strike are the weakest link!

Not sure if I have the confidence to gamble. I think it will a Yes from me to this pay deal. :ouch:

pokergirl

9th Oct 2007, 11:17

Me too sign-it to-your-room. I cant be relying on other crew who the majority im speaking too are relying on others. There is a decent offer on the table at the moment, yes the union have messed about, but i feel that we have stood our ground and that the company have listened. As i said earlier most crew were shocked to hear that they wont get allowances or the heathrow bus when and if on strike so what does that tell us. And i dont want to lose 4.8% as measly as it is to then get an even measlier 2% with conditions. When the flight crew got there rise there union was behind them 100% telling them vote no. Ours isnt so this could get very very nasty. Im going to vote yes.

scoobydooo

9th Oct 2007, 11:29

SITYR, I totally understand and It is your vote to do what you feel is right with it, after all it is your life that you have to finance.

The reason 's am voting no are;

1. I know the back pay will be there eventually, sure it would be nice to have it for Christmas, but a 0% credit card to March will cover Xmas and when I get the back pay I can pay off Crimbo.

2. If the offer and back pay for some reason only becomes 2% (which I whole heartedly hand on heart do not believe will happen) then the figures in the table for back pay would be factored by 42% (2/4.8) - I still get some money but I have gambled half of it on further improving my package.

3.The extra I would receive per month from the table posted 2 pages ago will probably be factored by 75% as they are based on 5 trips a month, which is 60 a year, the company is using 45 a year to calculate my back pay so it's fair to assume the same looking forward - so in accordance with that the monthly increase per role on the current offer would be ;

IFBT = £35.75, CC £29.71, SCC £34.22, CSS = £51.45, FSM £61.38.

If that falls to 2% ( which again I doubt) I am gambling half of the above to improve my package.

There are other factors too, Crew down, this has not been addressed - the union stated categorically it wanted this addressed and it has failed to address, this. Variable manning etc etc Airshare scheme - we will see nothing with it in its current format as the company continues to invest in itself we must change this as the FC did to a turnover element rather than profit.

So take all of that and then add in the factor that we are going to start being taxed on some components of our pay packet which we are not currently - in a year time will I be better off or worse off or the same if I accept this deal.....

Then I look at the momentum the union has, I am really really proud with how everyone has voted so far, we are united and I honestly think we can make a serious improvement on what is currently on offer.

Now it becomes harder for the very reasons you highlight but also because of the bias shown towards CSS FSM and 10 Year FSM's that has literally split the ranks. I'm sure the company are hoping said bias will stop the FSM's and CSS's telling people to vote No.

But from Me it's a not to this offer, a yes to strike to force the company back to the table, if I have to vote Yes to strike to do this, then that's what I will do and I will strike but the company would be foolish to let it get that far.

Big thumbs up for being honest as to why you think a yes this time :ok:

edited to add

p.s pokergirl who cares if no bus, dont have to come to work to strike can sit at home - the cause and effect is the same, as for no allowances - but we spend those on food and drink down route right so it would make no difference to us financially. The only loss would be the day off works pay we would lose, but then you have to deduct what it costs to get to work too, so maybe down a few quid after all that ? We all know it wont go that far, they would be back round the table faster than crew get to the bar downroute ;)

sign-it-to-your-room

9th Oct 2007, 11:54

Scooby.
Please tell me that you attended the pay talks and said your piece? Why dont you consider being a Union rep?
If all crew had your understanding and took time to see what they are actually doing then I would vote yes is a second. Sadly I dont think they do.
I just hope that you are out there spreading the word and educating as I've not spoken to anyone remotely like you. Most are clueless yet able to shout STRIKE extremely loudly.
Would be get the 2% backdated? I dont think we would, could be wrong though.
I'm not swayed as of yet, just cant seem to gain confidence in the crew. Help!:confused:

pokergirl

9th Oct 2007, 12:24

Scooby its great that there are crew like yourself that work the deal out to the extent that you have. Im not bothered about the bus myself, or allowances as i said earlier what we lose on strike with an increased pay deal on the table hopefully any loss would be rectified. However its just listening to the naive crew on flights that really dont seem to know what they doing, they are all gung ho on voting no but not prepared to vote yes to strike. which is what we need . otherwise hello to 2%. Unfortunatley the % of crew online stating the above is very high. AND the company know this , as another email from linda moir today states that a high percentage of crew are scared to strike. I dont want to strike but if i felt that the majority of crew were behind the notion i would whole heartedly. However this doesnt seem to be the case.:ugh:

scoobydooo

9th Oct 2007, 14:01

Ok from a different angle maybe -

In every letter accompanying the offers to date there has been a risk of a strike ballot.

Two offers ago it was in the accompanying letter saying I will ballot you for strike action if this fails. Last time it was on the ballot slip in big black letters, the same message as was on the letter the time before... trying to scare people. This time, who knows what it will be, probably in huge letters on the letter and the ballot strip - maybe even a pull out poster too !!.

The point is no Ballot has been issued yet despite being told 3 times so far we are going to get one. The company will do anything and everything to prevent the ballot from going as once it's gone out ...ITS OUT - Its like the company having a loaded gunto its head and not knowing if we're going to fire or not!

So really the alternate to voting YES is not immediately going back to 2% - that's not documented anywhere I can find so I dont know where this assumption by some is coming from (rumour I guess), also it's not for an instant strike ballot as some people are assuming. (even though the letter says it is).

We would just be in exactly the same position as we have been when each and every other past offer has been rejected - Yes the ballot form could come or "oh look, more talks more offers what a surprise" . Who comes back to the table first- who knows , however rest assured it would only be sheer business suicide for the company not to engage in further talks.

However the wording on I fly from the union makes is sound like that's it no more chances, when in reality nothing has changed between now and when we said "NO" on the last 3 occasions ! Yet scare tactics are the technique being employed now.

If the union stuck to its' word this time and the the strike ballot did come without revisiting the company, it would probably be good becasue I could imagine a much improved offer coming very shortly after.

Edited by eyesnears - Today at 2:58pm

Shanwick Shanwick

9th Oct 2007, 14:33

Just a thought.............

Let's just say the ballot of Union Members (approximately 70% of the workforce - 30% don't care either way) results in 60% NO and 40% YES. Unite have already stated that they will not negotiate further and will immediately ballot for strike action.

Assuming that the 40% of YES voters are against strike and 11% or more of the NO voters are against strike then all credibility is lost, the current offer is withdrawn and you're back to square one.

A weak NO vote at this point would be counter-productive to both this and all future negotiations. The resulting handful of no-shows rostered on the days of proposed strike action would, I have no doubt, be dismissed for Breach of Contract and union membership numbers would diminish considerably, leaving everyone "over a barrel".

scoobydooo

9th Oct 2007, 16:10

AGHHHHHHH

Unite have already stated that they will not negotiate further and will immediately ballot for strike action.THAT IS NOT WHAT THEY HAVE SAID and therein lies the problem - if people go around saying that then sure people are going to think about accepting this offer, what has actually been said in the offer is

To conform with legal requirements, a rejection of this final consultative ballot will automatically lead to “All Unite” members being asked to participate in a formal industrial action ballot. .Now that has been said.... on the last 3 offers, be it on the ballot paper, or in the letter accompanying so it's nothing new

The story of no further negotiations has NOT been stated in any formal union correspondence, that the members have been received.

However the view from he roo (aka Virgin management) on I-fly states

As I said last week the business is now entering a critical and unsettling phase as our Cabin Crew vote on a major revision to the pay offer over the course of the next few weeks in the final consultative ballot on pay..........

.......Unfortunately we are getting the impression that many crew wrongly believe that a “no” vote will lead to another and better offer being made. This is not the case. Unite have made it quite clear that they will automatically proceed to a formal industrial action ballot if this pay award is not approvedNow note, all reference to there will be no further negotiation by Unite is coming from the management - not from the Union. Until I see it in Black and White from the Union "we will not negotiate any further" then it is nothing more than a scare tactic by the management and the ramifications of a NO vote by the crew is no different to all previous offers, the word final has been used so many times ....

Please tell me where there has been a formal communication from the union stating it will not negotiate any further ? :ugh:

__________________________

Ps shanwick, I presume when you say no shows on day of proposed industrial action you mean a non formal strike - Yep, sure, you are not pitching up for work, black mark.

However official strike with voter and union backing - punishment of crews for not attending work on organised strike day is illegal. Just wanted to clarrify that incase anyone wasnt sure.

BY_boy

9th Oct 2007, 16:22

well said scooby! I was going to post something along the same lines.

As you have said nothing more than scare tactics from LM & the Brady bunch to ensure this goes to through so that they get their bonuses.

When a company is so content on wasting so much money then I believe the crew should fight for what is right and not be fobbed off with the excuse of there being no more money in the pot! Didn't the company say that on past offers and each offer has got better? So if there is no more money in the pot, where has the money come from??? Fibs being told I feel!

No vote from me, not because I want to see the company suffer, because I know that the money is there and If we accept and on the next round of pay talks, same old excuses will come up (new aircraft, club houses etc).

Stay United guys! :ok:

scoobydooo

9th Oct 2007, 16:23

Sorry shanwick meant to say also

Assuming that the 40% of YES voters are against strike and 11% or more of the NO voters are against strike then all credibility is lost, the current offer is withdrawn and you're back to square one.

That would be one take on it , how about another take that it would send the following message -

" we are not happy with the current offer - but we are not going to screw the airline into the ground by striking either , both parties get back round the table and hammer this out"

Fournier Boy

9th Oct 2007, 18:43

The view of another department in the same company....

Talking to many crew - there does seem to be an opinion of "screw the company - they are not doing me any favours"

Sorry guys and gals - this is childish. Say you are right, when you strike, the company has enough money to absolve the initial problems - in the longer term passenger downturn, may cause a few restrictions, but the company sails on through, no problem. Discussions revert back to pay...

...or look at it another way, what if the company hasn't got the money?

You all strike and no planes fly - we all saw what happened after 9/11. Couple of days on the ground and lots of people are without jobs ACROSS ALL DEPARTMENTS. Say Virgin survives this, but has to lay off people to get by - this will affect everybody.

I've got a mortgage to pay, we've got guys with young families, we've got guys a few months away from having families, do you want to see these people out of work over your pay? The simple matter is there are not infinate numbers of jobs in the aviation industry - some of us may get employment immediately - others may not. I know some of you don't want to screw over the company, I'm dissappointed with the few I've spoken to who are intent on nothing but. With these I have no sympathy.

If it works out for you all - great - well done. However, please don't forget that this action does not just affect you and the passengers. Screw the company, and it will change many more peoples lives not involved with your pay....

...just think about this please.

scoobydooo

9th Oct 2007, 19:06

Fournier Boy

Your post is fair in my book - and the threat of strike is an action not to be used likely. Your closing statement "...just think about it please" sums it all up. Just to flip it on it's side this can be directed not only at the crew but also at the ones responsible on the companies side of the table.

All most of us are looking for is a fair deal, one which addressees inflation (current one achieves this in year 1), Year 2 needs to become a fixed minimum value and crew down and airshare require addressing. I think loyalty across all ranks and a the trip pay rise % to juniors and seniors. It's not miles off what we have now. I believe a few more days of civil negotiations could achieve this and I would be happy.

Those who are thinking "screw the company" I wonder how many though that before the insulting offers came out - far less I would imagine than now - they have caused resentment.

scoooooby dooobyy doooooooo

bcf&gloves

10th Oct 2007, 18:53

Fournier Boy - I would like to point out is that crew have mortgages to pay, along with other bills, and there are crew with young families and families on the way! At the end of the day I realise that this could affect the whole business but mortgages and bills are not just for people working in other departments!
I for one don't want to see anything happen to the company, however I do want to get paid fairly, and maybe in-line with other cabin crew for other airlines.

virgin dolly

11th Oct 2007, 17:27

I have just pop in and had a chat with the management but I felt like I was hitting a brick wall. :ugh:
I'm still saying NO := and please listen to Scoobydooo he knows what he is talking about..We must stay united..!

Virgin Dolly :ok:

virgin dolly

12th Oct 2007, 11:33

One had ones hair in curlers having a cup of tea and watching Channel four news....."Virgin is going to buy Northen Rock" No wonder they have been saying there is no money in the pot it's all going to buy a bank.! :(

Virgin Dolly :ok:

sukigirl

12th Oct 2007, 13:01

Virgin dolly Are you sure they said virgin 'atlantic' are planning to buy northern rock? as the virgin group is entirely seperate from virgin atlantic, not the same company nor finances.

virgin dolly

12th Oct 2007, 13:19

I did not say Virgin Atlantic......of course its the Virgin group that could be buying northern rock. But for years all of our profits have gone into the virgin group so I want my hard earned investment back in a good pay deal..! Check out BBC news Business on line for more updates.

Virgin Dolly :ok:

VIRGIN CSS

13th Oct 2007, 02:49

I know I am going to get a lot of abuse for what I am going to say but hey I need to say it.

The Virgin Group and Virgin Atlantic are not the same. Virgin Atlantic will pay the Virgin Group money each year to use the brand name of VIRGIN. What the Virgin Group choose to do with the money they have has nothing to do Virgin Atlantic and the pay offers.

I recently went to an Onboard Managers Meeting and feel I need to share a few things with you that we were told by both VS Management and the Union reps who were at the meeting.

We can't compare ourselves to BA we are VS not BA. Lets look at the facts.

BA used to be a State Airline. Financed by the british goverment. They have much more assets and money that VS do.
BA have been around for many years 1924 they started as Imperial Airways. Some of us at VS were not even born when BA started flying. VS have been around for 23 years not long 1984.
BA have a very loyal customer base. BA have a very safe product image.
VS has an image of young and fun which some people do not like.
BA crew have been unionised for almost 40 years. VS crew have been unionsed for 6 years. Our union can't just go in there demanding massive pay deals and things like that they need to get a good relationship going and then things go better for us.
BA have 236 Aircraft with 52 on order. They fly to 222 destinations. We have 38 Aircraft and fly to 30 destinations.

So BA and VS are not the same by far and we should not compare ourselves to them.

Ok here are some more things you may find intresting.

VS are giving VK (Virgin Nigeria) a few more months and are going to then consider pulling the plug. Yes it is costing us money and they know that.

If we strike VS will not survive if the strike goes on for more than 7 days. We will run out of cash. In other words we all loose our jobs.

If we vote no to this offer they can't offer anything else there is nothing else to offer.

If we then vote no to the strike VS can and will then come back to us with the 2% that the rest of the company was given.

They know that they made a big mistake in only budgeting for 2% for crew pay increase. They also know that they should have listened to what crew wanted months ago. What they don't understand is that recently they went and spoke to crew and what we the crew were saying we wanted they have given us now and were still not happy.

We are only making on average 2p profit per passenger.

The open skies that will come into force early 2008 will either make or break us. The next 10 years will either see VS grow or fold up.

They know they have spent money on the base and the clubhouse and A/C but we all know that we need to spend to keep up with the the rest out there. We needed to base we are going to rent parts of it out to other airlines and make money from it.

Before anyone says it. I am NOT someone from the office. I am a CSS and want a decent pay rise but we have to be realistic.. VS have now met us and we need to VOTE YES or this time next year you may not be working for VS as we won't be around. For your own sake and everyone else that works at VS VOTE YES.

They woudl like to pay us more but the simple fact is there is no money to do that. We seen results for the last 10 years and there is nothing fishy going on. Think about it. Grab what we can now and then we can all get on with the jobs we love and look forward to the many years of enjoyment of working at VS. If you don't like that idea then maybe you need to look at other airlines/jobs. We work 900 hours a year. How many hours does your average person work a year. A lot more than 900.

sign-it-to-your-room

13th Oct 2007, 06:41

I agree with 90% of your points, and from previous posts some will know that I too will be voting yes. The only point I sniggered on was when you said "they want to pay us more".
I dont think you'll ever make me believe that! If this was the case then our pay package would have been sorted years ago. Pay has always been a bone of contention at VS, which is why posters such as Scooby are so passionate about ending this now and ensuring we enter a new and better era.
Most crew are quite confident that we wont go to strike. They believe that money can and will be found (even if it means VAA pulling funds from the Virgin Group for once - so maybe we should be following the Business Pages!)
I'm actually at a loss as to what it is crew that want. I know Scooby wants crew down addressed and loyalty to be recognised in other ranks, but Scooby is just one person. What do the others want? Cant just be the higher rate of pay for FSMs and CSSs as many crew feel this is unfair.
I would be happy with the current pay deal, especially now I have recieved a letter from LM saying that they will look at FSM pay in the next deal (sorry guys, charity begins at home:ouch:)
Just changing the subject slightly though, what did LM mean when she mentioned performance related pay for FSMs? On initial reading it didnt sound fair and I had visions of arse-licking, corruption and ruthlessness, but I wont go jumping the gun!;)

vs69

13th Oct 2007, 12:10

Virgin CSS and Sign-it... At last a breath of fresh air! Having followed this thread since all the pay dispute its nice to see that some the people who have a fair degree of influence over some of the more 'malleable' members of the workforce have a level head on them and are being realistic, did anyone who is a member of facebook see the (now strangely absent) 'Bring on the strike' group,very worrying really,seemed to reek of 'give me more money and to hell with the consequences'.
I know there are more than two of you out there with a level sensible head who realise the consequences of a strike, for example you wont get paid for the time you arent in,and wont get paid at all if the company gets into the position of having to make redundancies should the worst happen which seemed to come as a shock to some of the less experienced types....At the risk of stating the obvious find me a job role / workforce where people DONT think they are worth more, over in engineering people get knocked back for tier rises (job role stays largely the same but you get more money) even though they may be more than deserving of the extra cash but there is no union,not much in the way of an appeal process,just have to get on with it,and yes the 2% offer was a little hard to swallow!Good luck guys, enjoy the pay rise.....

COW,BIRD,OR VEG

13th Oct 2007, 12:17

hello people

just done some quick maths
say an average of 28 flight per day
average 300pax per flight = 8400 pax per day
profit per day 168 pounds @0.02 profit per pax

so 168 by 365 = 61,320 profit per year ??????????

i dont think i they tell the truth.(the company that is)

if im wrong then il eat my words and stand corrected
i think there is more in the pot and we are in the best positon we have ever been to get it.
i would like to buy a house one day

sorry for moan and i do love my job but !!!!!!!!

scoobydooo

13th Oct 2007, 13:53

Virgin CSS

Just read your post, lots of stuff in there, some of it I agree with and other bits I do not (but you wouldn't expect me to agree with it all - right ;))

I would just like to add that the recent meetings and the information you have relayed seems nothing more than a "sales" exercise by the company to the senior roles in a hope to change the message that was coming from the senior ranks - however as mentioned I am just one person and that was my personal take on it.

In response to a couple of your points;

We can't compare ourselves to BA we are VS not BA. Lets look at the facts.

You listed several reason below this statement, I agree with them all, I dont however think the fact that BA used to be a state airline has any bearing. They are suffering in some areas and there will come a point when they need to start drawing in strings - they tried earlier this year and this nearly led to strike because the crew/unions have a large membership.

At present I believe we have circa 60-70% membership, it's not bad but more would be better but this is certainly enough to make an impact.
My argument to this statement, "we cant compare ourselves with BA" would be - "why did the pilots union use this argument successfully that their counterparts who had served in BA after X years were earning considerably more than the Virgin equivalent". That would imply double standards - the company conceded to their requests/demands based on this amongst other arguments hence the argument stands for cabin crew also.

If we strike VS will not survive if the strike goes on for more than 7 days. We will run out of cash. In other words we all loose our jobs.

- Agreed that is why it is imperative that both parties sit around the table and hammer out a better deal - we have something to lose - however so does everyone else- the company losing e.g. £15M p.a. increasing our packages is cheaper than the company going under.

VK will have been more than likely expected to lose money, especially in it's first 2 years of trading, I very much expect this was budgeted for, to what extent though I am not sure, though given the increasing revenue and pax figures I would not be surprised to see those loses reduce or turn to profit within the next 2 years.

If we vote no to this offer they can't offer anything else there is nothing else to offer.

Ahem - Trying to curb my tongue here, sounds very much like B*&$ox - of course there is revenue available to commit to ensuring a smooth outcome of these negotiations - I'm sure there is a pot set aside for the flight crew negotiations true which are pending too albeit a different budget. The same was said that after the 1st and 2nd offer too - so tell me why you have any belief that the company is telling the truth and not just spinning another sob story here - heck if it's prepared write off £20M on VK last year - yet not on it's loyal crew.

If we then vote no to the strike VS can and will then come back to us with the 2% that the rest of the company was given.

This has not been communicated by the union, so where on earth this has come from or even soundly be believed to be the outcome of a no vote is just not comprehendible - at minimum it would reqire another vote and I wonder what the result of that would be !!

I'm sure I'm not the only one that would see this would lead to mayhem if the company even tried it, so lets see hypothetically the current vote is rejected, the vote to strike is NO because people would like the 2 parties to negotiate further rather than an aggressive strike - defies all logic other than to scare the crew into voting yes. Statements like this from the company push me more towards ticking the YES box on strike if the ballot is sent - not something I would do likely but because it's the kind of underhand statements like this that boils my blood and demonstrates the company has learnt nothing from its' crew and union dealings on these negotiations !! :mad:

What they don't understand is that recently they went and spoke to crew and what we the crew were saying we wanted they have given us now and were still not happy.

Because people believe in little back books - ah yes Mr/Mrs Manager I will be voting against the pay deal - name noted glass ceiling etc etc no one, or very few are going to tell a manager the truth... or believe for that matter that feedback via Ifly after logging in is anonymous !! Ties into V69's post about facebook, the group mentioned - I heard on the underground that the managers duly noted the names of each and every member of that group - so why would they do that if there is no little black book !

They know they have spent money on the base and the clubhouse and A/C but we all know that we need to spend to keep up with the the rest out there.
The rest also recognise that their crew are an important area to spend on without them having to fight tooth and nail to get an inflationary rise at the cost of more standby !

Openskies - yep going to affect everyone - then again everyone will have to deal with higher wages - so it's not just a battle virgin has every carrier will be subject to this threat.

Finally Grab what we can now and then we can all get on with the jobs we love and look forward to the many years of enjoyment of working at VS.

My counter to that would be, look how far we have come from the companies initial offers, does the current offer fulfil the aspirations you had when this started ? We, The union members have achieved so much in this offer only to throw it away now would be foolhardy.

We work 900 hours a year. How many hours does your average person work a year. A lot more than 900

I;ve hear this before somewhere - ah yes I remember a Travel editor did an article in the summer about how pilots have an easy life and only work 900 hours a year, I think it was the telegraph. Well if you think this then either you are wired to the moon (I'm sorry I know it's personal but that argument is off this planet !!) the backlash the editor received was intense - Probably on prune too - you need to add duty, fatigue, time away from home, jet lag - you cant be serious about that argument can you ??

But just to entertain it - yep other crews have this as you say "only working 900 hours a year" - yet for the same position they are better rewarded.

We work a hell of a lot more than 900 hours a year (that's about as you need to add duty time -pre flight, post flight time away from home, when you do the maths and consider time you are human, not Jet lagged it isn't far off 8 days off a month - same as a regular jo bloggs has 4 weekends a month

If you don't like that idea then maybe you need to look at other airlines/jobs.

This old chestnut.... It's a historical argument but no one person should be forced out of a job by diminishing terms and conditions - it is what unions were designed to protect - and that's what we are trying to do - protect ourselves.

If the company believes it will have a much better offer next time round put it in writing to us with a new offer...if it isn't prepared to do that then it's flannel in my opinion.

Well The defence rest your honour - no offence intended but it just feels like the "sales team" is still in Play. I know I sound like a Die Hard I just strongly (really really really strongly) believe we are worth more and any promises and words from the company are empty at this point.