Virgin - Crew Discussions II

[virgin dolly]

To all of you that have posted of late I feel that it's wonderful that we as crew can express our opinions as individuals.
The management are using scare tactics and there will be no redundancies. Virgin is expanding come open skies so Virgin will be flying business class flight out of Paris, Milan, Frankfurt etc, etc they will need everybody they can put there hands on in two and a half years time.
With the growth of Virgin Blue, Virgin Red and VA there is no chance of a fold up....!Just growth.
Now that recruitment has stopped we will soon be running crew down and variable manning will be with us for a long time. Don't forget about crew with buns in the oven like me, long time sickness and reduced rosters and crew leaving which is a lot. Can I say that the 900 hours is all that the CAA say we can work.....over that then we are being over worked. This was a massive blow the the company and why you see crew having one flight in a month because they are on high hours this is not fair. How long have the company been getting away with this.....years..Thank you CAA.

Virgin Nigeria...No company makes a profit for the first few years.....Sales are up though.... so think of the future and where do you think the money came from for the start up..... Virgin Group (the Cake)
We virgin are a slice of a cake in the virgin group like v cargo and V holidays. I have been told we don't get any money from v cargo or v holidays as they are separate companies. It's all about profits and moving cash around from company to company so there is money out there.
Ok if the management get a yes vote...fantastic they get their bonus for xmas. Crew get their money for xmas minus tax and that put most FSM's over a tax bracket so they will see far less.
Do you really think Virgin will let us strike.....? NO
Will RB let VA strike thats also the question...? NO
What will the public think of him if we do...?
Brand, Brand, Brand..
We are entering a time of unknown...I'm scared and who wouldn't be.
We will lose CM14 in the near future, we will be crew down and variable manning will stay....but Virgin will expand...
Profits now will stay small because of Singapore airlines.... Who likes to pay out when money can be move around...by the way what did happen to the 600 million from the 49% sale...Did it go to Virgin group or our expansion...but I was told our profits went on our expansion. Anyway what the company do with the money is there own business but when they say there is no money out there then think again.....we are getting bigger..
Credit cards are on the way .....new computers for crew check-in and briefing rooms.
So if you have been tolded there is no money out there.....Why has LM just sent you FSM's and letter saying the FSM pay will be addressed..Also during the forums with FSM's and CSS "we would like to see you better payed"..but management say there is no money..!
The two just don't meet up do they....One minute there is no money in the pot...the next FSM's and CSS pay will be addressed..? who is following the carrot..?

We as cabin crew have to start somewhere and voice our opinions very much like BA did years and years ago.....think of your future with Virgin...Virgin will grow...will your pay...look at your pension forcasts..?


Virgin Dolly :ok:

[virgin dolly]

I take my hat off to you Scoobydoo........WELL DONE........! :p

Virgin Dolly :ok:

[High as a Kite]

I've been following this very long discussion with equal amounts of interest and bemusement. There have been some very valid points made and some comments that are just plain out there :eek:
Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion and I'm all for free speech. These are my feelings on the pay discussions, which I'm certain some will agree with and others won't. Either way, I'm not enforcing my opinion on anyone, it's purely my opportunity to express my thoughts....
There has been a lot of talk about a fairer deal for FSMs/CSSs. Indeed there have been a few comments on here along the lines of "I was happy with what I got when I joined as a Junior but expect more now I've worked my way through the ranks". The company are now proposing a deal along these lines with an better package for onboard managers(OBMs). However the response is now changing to....what about the Juniors and Seniors? Surely by offering an improved deal to the OBMs it is an incentive to stay with the company and work your way through the ranks thus decreasing the high staff turnover and the costs this incurs.
The initial offer was derisory and I'm sorry our ground staff are not represented and therefore had this offer forced upon them. It does cause a divide within the company and generates a certain amount of ill feeling. I look forward to the day when engineers, ground crew and all other departments are able to negotiate a deal that is right for them. Everyone plays an integral role in the day to day running of the airline and should be recognised for it accordingly.
The subsequent offers had all sorts of if and buts attached to them and were of course rejected as well.
There are discussions going on all over the Internet about this pay deal. This is just one of many. Some of the mud slingers have even resorted to hurling insults at our customers, causing irrepairable damage to the business. It's a simple business theory, but where do they think the money comes from to fund pay increases??
The latest offer deserves serious consideration. Those who have worked in the airline industry for any period of time will realise just how volitile it is. The success rests largely on the prosperity of the economy and a looming recession will cause a dramatic down turn. It doesn't matter whether a strike occurs over a 24hr, 7 day or 1 month period, it will cause devastating results. Those who are considering a no vote must bear this in mind.
I've invested over 10 years with Virgin Atlantic. I enjoy my job, work very hard and reap the rewards. Is it the best paid job? No it isn't. Is it the best job? To me it is, there is nothing else I want to do. Am I prepared to jump on the gravy train for a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow? No, I'm prepared to accept a reasonable offer which has very few conditions attached. Oh and before anyone says "it's just another management invasion trying to fudge the discussion"....my answer is....yes I am a manager.....on onboard manager. :ok:

[sign-it-to-your-room]

Hi High!
I may be wrong but it seems as though its all the CSSs and FSMs that are voting yes and JNRs and SNRs that are voting no.
I think you quoted me in your last post. I mentioned some posts ago that after 13 years with the company and with my position as an FSM, I would like to see some loyalty from the company for my experience and expertise. I feel that the new pay deal almost does this, not quite, but almost and that is why I am voting yes. Before we know it the new pay deal will ready for talks again and I think there will be some significant changes within the UNION.
To be honest, I cant say I have been very impressed with Unite during this period. I have found their communication weak and that last offer with all those strings attached was pretty awful! Think I would have preferred the 2% with no strings!
However I dont forget all the other things that they have done such as days off before leave, maternity ground placement money etc etc.
I think if they had been seen to be working with the crew more as opposed to the company, then maybe people would have backed them more and groups like wedeservemoremoney would not have sprung up.

I personally feel as though the whole thing has got out of hand. So many crew are going to vote no with no real understanding of what strike action will do. Not all crew, I dont want to patronise, but silly groups on Facebook and postings of `Bring on the strike' make me cringe.
There is most certainly bad feeling within VAA now, which I think is such a shame and maybe something that we wont be able to reverse.

I mentioned earlier that I had lost some faith in the union, the poeple I have not lost faith in however are our Flight Deck. I have heard more sense come out of their mouths than anyone else in the Union. These guys are in the know and I personally feel are the best ones to lean on for advice and opinions.

I may be alone here, but I cant see the company stumping up any more cash. I think they have met us the middle which in my book is fair :D

[LittleMissKiwi]

You're not alone SITYR, I completely agree.:ok:
I just think it's all getting out of hand, and I'm getting a little sick of the militants who are forcing their opinion on everybody. It's getting to the point where I am loath to admit I'm voting "Yes" because of the backlash I'd recieve. I've considered my options, and read that piece of paper til I started dreaming of it!!!
I don't think we're paid fairly, but I think we'll be losing more by striking; I feel that we've little more to gain, but an awful lot more to lose.

[High as a Kite]

Hi sign-it-to-your-room & LittleMissKiwi,

I really hope there are plenty who think like us so the latest offer is voted in.

In any negotiations there has got to be some give and take. Anyone who looks into the finer detail of the pilots last pay deal will know they had to relinquish plenty in order to reach an agreement that was acceptable.

There is no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and the attitude of a small minority to strike no matter what makes me :yuk:

I'm voting YES to the pay deal :ok:

[sign-it-to-your-room]

Yes thats right, the pilots had to give up airshare for example, but they did this with little fuss.

I have a feeling that this vote will come back as a NO. I dont think I have come across any FSMs (like myself) that will be voting NO, we all seem to be voting YES along with the majority of CSSs. However the lions share of crew are made up of SNRs and JNRs and I have still to pinpoint one person that is voting YES.

I am also predicting that there will be a majority of crew who will vote NO to strike. So where does that leave us? Scooby is confident that it will not automatically revert back to 2%, others are not so confident.

I do have a couple of questions.
1. As I am voting YES, will i still be balloted to strike if the majority vote NO?
2. At what stage would crew lose their anonymity in relation to strike voting. When they vote to strike or when/if the strike takes place?

[virginracer]

Hi sigh-it-to-your-room,

last week i spoke to one of our union reps and amoung others where the two questions you asked, and this is what i was informed.

If the vote comes back a no, then all members will be involved in the Industrial action ballot. (i hope we don't see this ballot)

As to yours mine and all members Anonymity, if we have to vote on industrial action and that comes back a yes to action then by law Virgin will be given all members names.

I for my own reasons have voted yes to this offer!! :ok:

Even with a yes vote, i do hope Virgin address all the issues that they have been made aware off from all of us crew, they must act on what they have been told!!!

[sign-it-to-your-room]

My thoughts exactly Virginracer,
Rome wasnt built in a day and I think that this has been a huge learning curve from the CSMs right up to SRB himself.
Virgin were always THE company to work for and crew were prepared to take a drop in salary in place of a great lifestyle. This has now changed completely though. The cost of living (especially in the SE where we are contracted to be) has hit the roof and we have gained some less desirable routes!
It is now common knowledge that the Virgin family are growing apart and that in order to get the highest calibre of crew, then pay needs to be seriously addressed.
I think they will do this, but it will take time. I'd especially like to see Crew Down addressed and the loss of variable manning, which may seem to work in theory but practically it does nothing but rob the customers and upset the service.
Its no doubt a stressful time at the moment, and its starting to annoy me I have to say. I had no idea that 75% of our crew had degrees in Business Management :hmm:

[sign-it-to-your-room]

LM sent a letter to all FSMs, regardless of union membership. Non union members recieved the letter too.

Why do you accuse virginracer of scaremongering?
Surely if crew are willing to vote NO and reject this deal then they must be prepared to strike? Therefore why are they scared?
Striking is major, so if they are bold enough to shout STRIKE from any forum that will hear them, then they must be bold enough to allow the company to know who they are?
I link the two (lastest vote and strike ballot) because I believe that if you vote NO, then you must be prepared to strike as the Union and company have so clearly communicated, and not rely on it going back to the table which may or may not happen, so why should crew be scared?
Makes me think that crew will vote No to deal and No to strike, as I've said all along.
Posts like yours just make me sigh :sad:

[LittleMissKiwi]

Well SITYR, you've pinpointed oneI'm a yes voting Jnr!;)
I just wish a few more of us were less impressionable and more forward thinking, I do think a few newbies are feeling pressurised to vote No.
However, everyone is entitled to their vote, and before I get jumped on like I did the other day at LHR check-in, I don't think everyone who is voting no is a militant! We're all trying to do whats best for us!!
On another note, rosters are late again...:ugh::{

[Virginfun]

nice to see some positive comments out there!

[virginracer]

strikertworeshoes,

you are reading something i didn't write, i didn't say virgin would get the names of all crew who voted yes for industrial action, how an earth could that be done anyway as not even the union would know who voted yes, but yes you are correct in what you say and perhaps i should have wrote it differently, if the union members vote for industrial action then by law virgin will get given all names of members.

I am not here to start scare rumors just answer two questions that were asked.

YES vote from me thankyou!!! :ok:

[Surrey Viper]

Hi LittleMissKiwi,

Aren't our rosters due out today? Don't think they are quite late yet!

[sukigirl]

It is nice to read some positive comments on here. I am not flying at the moment as I am on maternity but im not suprised to hear about the millitants out there on line, I have seen it before and quite frankly glad I dont have to hear it everytime i go to work.
Was wondering if anyone knew when the ballot papers are due out. Its probably obvious what I am planning to vote but would rather not say it aloud. :ok:

[missdoo]

Has anyone got their November roster yet? They're supposed to come out today!!

[Virginfun]

got my november roster, on time and as expected!!!

[LittleMissKiwi]

Hmmm, haven't received my ballot papers....
Did get a blinder of a roster though!!!:D:ok:
xxx

[glamourgirl!]

'Virginfun' you are blatently Virgin Managment.

[exvicar]

'Virginfun' you are blatently Virgin Managment

Glamourgirl, not sure how you have arrived at the idea that just because someone got their roster on time they must be management. As most got their rosters on time there would therefore be zillions of managers at Virgin. Hang on a minute.......

[sign-it-to-your-room]

Virginfun loves the job, the company and is happy with the latest pay offer, therefore a lot of the posters on here presume that he/she is management.

Believe it or not, there are a few of us left that share Virginfuns ethos. Yes I am a manager, but only in the sky sense (so actually dont think I am paid like a manager compared to those on the ground :sad:), however I will be voting yes too, a I dont feel I a work in poor conditions and I now believe that virgin will sit up and take note!

[glamourgirl!]

I was refering to all of "virgin funs" posts not just the one re roster. I just find it a bit "dirty tricks" trying to influence the vote. I am also managment(inflight although my salary doesnt reflects this) and im embarassed by how the whole pay deal has been handled. Its a shame no one was listening 6 months ago!

[sign-it-to-your-room]

I agree glamourgirl, wholeheartedly. I totally understand why some are so incensed now. But its not gonna help us get more money either!
Do you really think virginfun is a ground manager? I dont, I think they are far too busy. I think Virginfun is a ..........................junior! :ooh:

[back2front]

Well I think he or she is, at the very least, is a management muppet.

[Virginfun]

At last we are talking about something else!

I will give you a clue I am a CSS!!

[sign-it-to-your-room]

Good on you virginfun!
I think you are a boy too. Am I right?

[Virginfun]

no sorry, I wear a red uniform!

[sign-it-to-your-room]

LOL!
Shows how bad my perception is. I read your posts like a male/junior!
Anyway I too wear a red uniform and a I am an FSM. :ok:

[sign-it-to-your-room]

My dear friend who has been around for many years and has gained an OBE for her political work has written this in response to me asking her what would happen if we decided not to strike, yet rejected the last offer. Would we be automatically given the 2%? seems the answer is yes.

"A rejection and strike action vote would most probably lead to withdrawal of all offers altogether, because an employer will not negotiate "under duress". The members should accept the advice of the Union and the 4.8 offer. Presumably the Union has also advised that rejection means that there is no possibility of an improved offer.which is generous in present circumstances."

I really believe that this could happen, although Scoobs will strongly disagree. I think there is a loop hole and "under duress" is it!

[back2front]

Any they reckon they have no money to give us a fair pay deal:



LONDON (Reuters) - Virgin Atlantic is considering buying 10 longhaul aircraft worth about $3 billion to enter service around 2012.

http://us.bc.yahoo.com/b?P=KZeRrkWTVvolJZOoRm2STwLM0Um_9EcaAKEABpZd&T=19or30g9a%2fX%3d1192886433%2fE%3d7665819%2fR%3dnews%2fK%3d 5%2fV%3d2.1%2fW%3dH%2fY%3dYAHOO%2fF%3d3844437406%2fH%3dY2Fja GVoaW50PSJuZXdzIiBjb250ZW50PSJmdWVsO09seW1waWNzO2l0O3JlZnVyb F93d3dfY2FiaW5jcmV3X2NvbSIgcmVmdXJsPSJyZWZ1cmxfd3d3X2NhYmluY 3Jld19jb20iIHRvcGljcz0icmVmdXJsX3d3d19jYWJpbmNyZXdfY29tIg--%2fQ%3d-1%2fS%3d1%2fJ%3dFA519345&U=13b84gaam%2fN%3dG54ZudGDJHY-%2fC%3d608139.11335111.11912359.2577455%2fD%3dLREC%2fB%3d486 8698
"Virgin Atlantic is in talks with Boeing and Airbus about ordering next-generation fuel-efficient aircraft to operate Virgin Atlantic services from (London) Gatwick airport," a spokesman said on Thursday.


"The order could potentially be for 10 aircraft which could be 747-8s or A380s," he added. "These would enter service around the time of the Olympics in 2012."
The order could be worth between $2.8 billion and $3.2 billion at current list prices.
Virgin said it would make its choice by next May and the planes would replace eight of Virgin's older 747-400s at Gatwick serving high-capacity leisure destinations such as Las Vegas, Orlando, Barbados, Havana, St.Lucia, Montego Bay and Antigua.
In April Virgin placed an order for 15 of Boeing's new carbon-composite 787 Dreamliner jets worth around $2.8 billion to be mostly based at London's Heathrow airport.
Virgin already has six A380s on order from 2013.


Chief Executive Steve Ridgway told reporters on Wednesday Virgin was still interested in A380s despite comments by Virgin owner Richard Branson in August that he no longer favoured four-engined planes because they generally burned more fuel.
Ridgway said A380s still made sense because they carried more passengers, reducing their environmental impact.

[scoobydooo]

....means that there is no possibility of an improved offer.which is generous in present circumstances

Indeed I do disagree - How many times have we heard this now ?Ah yes I remember... with the 2nd offer.. and 3rd... and 4th... zzzzzz

Would love to share the sentiment they will listen next time, unfortunately I believe history repeats itself as it has this time and will continue to over and over, we hold are ankles management apply the KY and .... oh here we are again 2 years later !

As for management using this site.... had that confirmed but I'm afraid I cant say how. Had to giggle at the reference made in earlier posts to hundreds of managers - now that will be a way to save money - copy the BA culling of middle managers..... hmmm maybe that is why they are so active at the moment in trying to persuade the deal.. Oh I mean NOT so active anymore having been told to lay off because they are pi$$ing crew off.

Funny old world

[Virgin89]

It would be a pretty sorry state of affairs if as a company we were not investing in new A/C for the future. If there were no orders panned in the pipeline I for one would be more worried. Remember we don't own our A/C we lease them, rent them. We don't pay out any money for these. The order price quoted is what the order is worth, not what VS pay out.
We pay out a deposit, which we get back when the first A/C comes.
I don't want to be working on those old 744 forever with no entertainment. I would love to work on new shiny planes, which I am proud to be on.
Having been an FSM for 10 years now and a man nearly in my forties (can't believe it's nearly here), I along with everyone else at VS is in a position to vote for what I think is correct. I don't think people should be bullied into making any decision they don't want too. People have their own minds, they use them everyday in making many decisions in life, so use it to make this one.
I am pleased that I was able to share my feedback on the last deal to management at check in and at one of the OBM meetings I attended. I am also pleased that this new deal has addressed all the things that I didn't like about the last deal, so it's a YES from me.
Yes I am paid more than a CC/SCC and CSS, however I never used to be. I worked my way up the ranks and have made VS a carer choice, which I love. That is something that all CC/SCC and CSS have the choice to do.
I firmly believe that as we go into this period of no growth for 3-years the company will begin to address the issues that have been raised to them. This included all salaries and supplementary payments like trip pay, crew down etc. Also remember that with the opportunity for anyone FSM with 10-years service in that rank can go part time. This means promotion throughout all the ranks.
I've been asked if I would like to be involved in a workshop on one of these topics in Jan 08, which I agreed too. I want the best for the crew. We are the best in the industry and yes we are not well paid in some aspects to other carriers, however I think the time has come where that will change.
Voting for a strike will do nothing but damage this company. It would mean no promotion, probably down-sizing of routes, which would mean down-sizing of crew.
I remember the Gulf War in the 90's and 9-11. Getting that call at home informing me that I potentially could be made redundant was one of the worst day's of my life.
We have a great lifestyle at VS, much better than any other airline and once salaries are addressed I firmly believe everyone will be a lot happier and content.
We are going to grow eventually and with that comes new promotion and exciting carer prospects. Lets not ruin that by calling a strike, which would only lead to even less money in the pot, lack of customer confidence and eventually job losses. I've seen it happen before.
You have a choice and as an FSM I have never made a point of passing my view on to others, only if they ask me.
We have never been here before and I hope to never be here again and finally think that VS management have learnt a real lesson with this and how it was handled. This is a starting block for the future.
Anyway, take care you all, just wanted to have my say. Flying tonight so off to get some rest.
Happy flying
x;)

[scoobydooo]

Virgin89

We have a great lifestyle at VS, much better than any other airline and once salaries are addressed I firmly believe everyone will be a lot happier and content.


May I ask you what makes you think the that the pay will ever be addressed properly ?

I am also pleased that this new deal has addressed all the things that I didn't like about the last deal

I agree the last deal was terrible and this one looks like roses in comparison to that, I don't honestly think that was pure coincidence - do you ?

and finally think that VS management have learnt a real lesson with this and how it was handled. This is a starting block for the future.

Why do you believe that ? Try and convince me why I should believe anything management say at the moment - the same management that have undertaken these pay talks in the fashion they have, have been trying to sell this deal, posting on this site and others and generally operating like a political party in election year...


A further question to you is what would make the perfect deal ? You have said how this one addressed all the points in the last one (not hard really). You said once pay is sorted out everyone will be a lot happier. So if you think that needs to be sorted out why not force the company to go back to the negotiating table and sort it out rather than just laying down and rolling over ? If your answer to that is because I dont want to strike and crumble the company fair play, but we both know like every other time the company has said it wont go back to the table... it has !! Do you honestly think the parties involved would not sit down and talk further before letting an actual strike go ahead ?

It's pure and simple scare tactics.

safe flight.:cool:

[Virgin89]

Scoobydoo, I don't agree with all your comments but you do make some good points.

I have also asked myself the question over the past few months, "why would I tick the yes box when they keep going back round the table?" What would make anyone tick the yes box if we always thought there was a better deal. If they offered 5% would we say no and go for 6%, then 7% and on and on.

I've done my research and spoken to many people about this over the past few months and I have to say I do believe them.

For all the bad mouthing that management are getting at the moment there are also some good people in there. People that I trust are normal and that in the past have helped me out, given me paid time off for various reasons over the past that other companies wouldn't even dream of giving.

Most of the money that VS has in the bank is made up of advance pax sales, sales that in the event of a stike would dwindle as VS would have to give that money back. We are only as strong as the pasengers that have the confidence in us. Confidence that we will operate certain flights on certain days. We rely on a good cash flow to survive and from after attending one of the OBM meetings last week got to hear all about this, what we have in the bank and how we use this.

Do we want more? Yes of course we do Scoobydoo. Will we get it? Well I hope so. I just feel that the past few months has put all of us in a much stronger position when we go into the next round of pay talks, in 12 months time

Don't tranish everyone with the same brush in that Ivory tower Scooby, it's not fair. There are many genuine people in this company, both in the air and on the ground.

Give it 12-months and I bet the next deal starts off a lot better than this. You can't sort out all the issues with pay during one pay deal. You can however sort it out over time, which is what I think VS will do from now on.

I could be wrong and if I am then I will eat my hat.

Take care
Virgin 89

[Virgin89]

Scoobdoo, one more thing, sorry.

Any negotiation is made up of tactics. The first deal is always going to be bad and here at Virgin we as crew always say NO to the first deal, whatever it is.

The second deal was also bad in my opinion and there was some bad comm's that came about with this deal.

Then the self funded deal came up where we had to give up too much. That was never going to get through with the crew.

This final deal I feel they have listened to us. OK there is not loads of money at the moment, however they listened to us and took out all the stuff we didn't like.

Did that please me? Yes it did.

That is why I think this is the last chance with this deal. I also think we need to trust our reps here. That's what we pay them for and I agree that this is the best deal that they could get.

I also don't want the company to crumble if I'm honest with you. I am still proud to work for VS after nearly 19 years. If I wasn't then I would leave and go work for another airline.

Anyway I'm waffling now, sorry.
Take care
Virgin 89

[In The Pink]

The Management has been clever, classic divide and conquer tactics, their not buying our sell so let’s tweak it a little and get the seniors to sell it for us instead.
Any company that doesn’t want to pay its staff a basic cost of living increase (without conditions) is a joke company and shouldn’t be in business in the first place.
BA the airline that VS so likes to belittle all of the time is 700 percent more profitable than Virgin. Why does BA do so much better commercially than Virgin?
Unlike BA, Virgin doesn’t compete on short haul routes with the Lo-Co’s in fact Virgin has been in the enviable position for some time of cherry picking the world’s most profitable longhaul airline routes – no excuse there.
BA pay their cabin crew a lot more and don’t have 10 national crew operating to India or the Far East on 350 pounds a month basic salary as Virgin do – no excuse there either.
Open skies? Fuel? Airport charges? The environment? – true they all cost a lot these days but BA pay the same.
So how can it be that our nearest rivals are so much more commercially efficient then we are, why can’t Virgin AFFORD to give us a modest increase at this time?
Ever thought the reason might be Virgin Atlantic MANAGEMENT. Are THEY doing their jobs terribly well?
The MANAGEMENT that has led Virgin into what was always going to be and always will be, a white elephant in Nigeria.
The MANAGEMENT that has leased in large numbers a gas guzzling Airbus with no technical input into that decision.
The MANAGEMENT that has largely ignored an economy class that is now failing.
The MAGAGEMENT that has recruited so many office staff that there are now more employees per aircraft than BA. How many receptionists’ do you really need?
The MANAGEMENT who work 3-4 days a week and fly once a month?
Etc…, etc….
It’s also very amusing to read Virgin Pilots coming on here and advise against a strike. The very same pilots who not so long ago were prepared to shut the airline down over pay at a more difficult time for the industry post 9/11. If like us they were getting knocked back at the bank for an extension to the Cotswolds pile or a bigger pool for their villas in the South of France they’d probably think twice, well meaning as I’m sure they are.
All the crew want is a modest pay rise to reflect how much dearer things become with each passing year.
With the turnover of crew here things will be a lot different in 2 years time. We’ll be starting from scratch again. By accepting this deal you’ll be letting management off the hook, we’re being asked to fund THEIR underperformance not ours.
This in my opinion is a very critical time for Virgin cabin crew and the eventual result will have lasting implications for our terms and conditions for years to come. They want us to feel guilty about asking for what is rightfully ours in the first place. Do you really think the Pilots will be asked to sacrifice when they get their RPI increase next year?
Virgin MANAGEMENT can prevent industrial action. They ball is firmly in THEIR court.

[scoobydooo]

v89

I agree with some of what you say, not other bits. Obviously your perception of some in Ivory towers is much better than mine given your personal experiences. You are right - it's not fair to tarnish everyone with the same brush, but the latest sales technique of walking around checking "sell, sell sell" has wound me up more than the "would you like the extended warranty" sales pitch you get in comet, currys !!

Maybe that is why they have been instructed to stop trying to sell it now... I guess I am not alone in having been wound up by this.

As for asking for more %, no that's not it... I have said before what I would vote YES for and it;s not a million miles off what is on the table now.

My wish list is still...

4.8 as offered this year.

Next year RPI (however add a minimum value of x%, lets say 3.5% as the company has used this in the pay demonstration) that way if RPI drops to 1.8% next year - year 2 does not attract only a 1.8% pay rise.

Trip pay increase for Juniors and seniors needs to be increased a little I feel, as they appear to have been passed over.

Variable manning, binned - cant believe the union even started paving this road ! (edited to add - why not turn the idea on its head, listen to this , instead of when a flight has a light load and reducing the crew count to offer the same service to pax. Why not offer them a supreme service, extra pampering more attention because there are more crew members to do it - even if it just gets a few more pax next year because they told their friends of the good experience or they fly with us again !!??) -- I know it's all about cost cutting but how about looking at it from a different angle - it would be magic touches eat your heart out. That way also when a flight is variable manned and suddenly the loads increase DOH ! we are not crew down as the crew have been assigned to somethign else.

Crew down - hefty payouts - similar to BA - We are talking serious money here, now this isn't so we make more money as crew members, it's so the company employs the correct amount of crew - we would be happier on flights fully crewed and the customer experience would be better - lets face it anything to make the customer experience better - new lounges, new limos, dedicated T3 walkways to lounges, how about plain old simple enough crew to service all their needs !?

If those 4 things were changed then I would vote YES, but right now I still feel we are being sold short, but again it's my personal opinion.

Then for next years talks I would like to address;

Restructure airshare to similar as flight crew have (turnover related not profit - we are going to make nothing on this as the company reinvests in itself or Nigeria !)

Restructure Allowances to discourage swapping of trips due to different revenues in each destination. Several options, duty pay, band each destination e.g. Africa's take same as Americas, lots of different options but they are all for future discussions.

But right now I feel unless the 4 issues I mention above are catered for then its a :( from me, why because RPI could go real low next year, variable manning could be worsened and crew down is getting beyond a joke upsetting more and more pax and making our lives and as an FSM that must make your life much harder too does it not ?

Oh and finally, hopefully we will be T&G led by the next deal not Brian Boyd who was beamed down from some planet and recommended the last pay deal - how the bloke can expect to receive any dignity after the crew members threw that no vote back in his face I have no idea.

what do you think of my wish list ?

I love my job but am fed up of seeing us all get steam rolled, and as I see it now it is a downward spiral. If these issues are not addressed now there will be a further downward spirral and in 2 years time we will be fighting just to get it back to how it is now... and that isnt brilliant. The management promises of better next time.. unfortunately I dont have the same faith in them as you do. It would be interesting if an external company surveyed the crews anonymously asking their opinions towards management and other things. (oh isnt that what a union is supposed to do too !!??)

[sign-it-to-your-room]

Okay Scoobs, you've done it.
You've made me change my mind. I have followed thisa thread inside out and my opinion has been swayed more than once. Looking at my early posts on here I was right alongside scoobs, then as the offer increased so did my expectations. I do still have faith in the company though but
the crew down point was the real winning (or losing point) for me. My sentiments exactly. Its been a sneaky cost cutting exercise for too long.
:{

[Virgin89]

Hi Scoobs,

Your wish list is not one that I would see as a bad thing and I do agree with you.

I also think that in time and it has to be time from where we are now your wish list will be answered.

4.8% for this year, you got that in this deal
RPI for next year, well you got that too,

Varible manning was never on the table to begin with, however I agree should form part of the next pay negs.

Crew down pay I also agree with. We need to be more rewarded for crew down as we still deliver the same service under the conditions of not having the amount of crew that we should have, so yes am 100% behind this. Again the union never brought this too the table so perhaps we should feed back to them that this is a number 1 priority in the next pay negs.

RPI is what we wanted in this deal and we got it in the end, without hardly any gives.

Your package is a good one Scooby and one that I would like to see fully implimented. For now we have some of that, so why not let's make the union see that the rest is what we want in the next deal.

The union never canvassed us to see what we want. Any union should sit down with groups of crew of all ranks to gain feedback to what their expectations are for a current deal. They never did this and did give mixed messages.

I can't tell you what to vote. It's clear what you've already most probably voted. It's your choice and you put across a very good point.

I think your wish list is acceptable and getting half of that now and working on the others to me is worth vioting yes for. It's a good company to work for, gives a good lifestyle and lets admit it we go to work 5 times per month, not on a daily basis.

I enjoy reading your posts. They are put across in a very constructive manner.

Take care
x

[Virgin89]

In the pink, I have to reply to your comments.

BA is a different model to VS. One of the main reasons that BA makes a lot more money than VS is that they have not invested, until recently with their new Club World Product, any money in new products or aircraft.

They have made their first order for A/C since 2000, where as we have made investments all the way through. We had new A/C coming into service at least twice a year, this a huge cost.

Don't get me wrong, I think there should be money in this for crew and this is not an excuse, however by not now investing in any new A/C untill 2011 this gives VS the chance to start to use the assets they have now and to spend the profits on other things, i.e crew.

Virgin have a great route network, however one that is very competative with other carriers and with return on sales being so low at the moment this is another reason that we are not making the same return that BA are.

Agree or disagree with what Management do, that is one that I am not getting into. Management in any company will always be looked on as the bad guys. In a way being an FSM I am looked on by many crew as someone to be wary of, until they get to know me.

They get to know me on long flights and long layovers, however management on the ground don't get that chance as often to get to know everyone.

I don't agree some of your comments but it's your say and how you feel, and I think it's good that eveyone has their chance to say how they feel.

Will this deal get rejected. I'm not so sure. Will it be close? yes it will, for sure. If we stike will we all be here in the same positions in a years time? No for sure. Having been here before I know what the answer is here.

Virgin pilots gave up a lot to get their deal and the facts behind this aren't what is being said on line. They gave up their airshare as well as increased their productivity by 100+ hours per month. The crew made it clear that they don't want to give up anything. Who's fault is it that there isn't more money in the pot for other things?

[scoobydooo]

thanks v89

One thing though.....

Crew down pay I also agree with. We need to be more rewarded for crew down as we still deliver the same service under the conditions of not having the amount of crew that we should have, so yes am 100% behind this. Again the union never brought this too the table so perhaps we should feed back to them that this is a number 1 priority in the next pay negs.

The bit in bold (I made it bold) The union did bring this up, if you read their letters sent with previous offers and advice to reject earlier offers one of the reasons quoted was because the company had failed to action "crew down" payments especially the 1 crew down scenario - the most common. This has still not been actioned.

really must go to bed now :ok:

[In The Pink]

Hi Virgin89

BA as you say haven't invested in aircraft for a few years but they have just invested 350 million quid in Terminal 5 and revamped Club World. DESPITE that investment their profit on turnover last year was 7.2% and their on target for 10 percent yes 10 percent this year. We are just about breaking even and MANAGEMENT is telling us that is going to be a tough few years ahead.

As for Virgin spending their profits "on other things"...THEIR IS NO PROFIT!!

Our managers are perfectly affable people (the ones I've met), I certainly don't think their "bad guys" but what has that got to do with anything? The companies financial performance is in their hands, they get paid a lot to manage that financial performance and frankly in comparision to BA its shocking.

The MANAGEMENT know the price of everything and the value of nothing. The amount of priceless goodwill twords the company, goodwill that has gotten the airline out of a hole several times in the past has been lost with a lot of my colleagues, and all for what....?

I'll say it again, I don't feel guilty about not accepting what in effect is a pay cut. All is want is a modest increase to reflect how much more expensive life becomes with each passing year.

The pilots gave up NOTHING. They earn 50% more now than they did post 9/11. Their airshare has a different badge these days but they still get a profitability payment for every hour they spend in the aircraft. The majority of our pilots work 750 hours, 150 hours a year less than the industry standard. And good on them I say, they stuck together, toughed it out and guess what Virgin didn't go bust.

MANAGEMENT can prevent a strike. The ball is firmly in their court.

[TightSlot]

Stop accusing each other of being 'Management' and 'stooges' and so forth - you don't know the truth on an anonymous forum, and make yourselves look foolish by assuming that you do.

Further posts of this nature will be deleted.

[scoobydooo]

ooh ohh.. who said what ? Did I miss something exciting for tightslot to warn us all :O... not long till ballot results....... get those forms sent back if you havent already.:)

[back2front]

When is the result due scoobs?

[scoobydooo]

12 Noon Thursday 1st November - 1 week today. Wonder if they may extend it due to postal strikes on the chance that some people may still not have received the forms or they may not be received back in time.

I would urge anyone that has not received the form and wishes to express a preference to contact the union. I know I still have not has some items received that were sent weeks ago, fortunately I did get my form voting form though.

The last thing we would want is for the union/ company to say the outcome didn't count as not all votes were received due to postal delays and have to re-ballot for the same offer.

Any reps out there care to comment ?

[Jenn]

I finally got round to returning my completed form today & after a lot of deliberation! I'd urge everyone else to do the same.
It feels great to finally have confidence in my conviction!
Heres to the results on the 1st!

[scoobydooo]

Lets hope 6 days is long enough for it to get back to them Jenn given the royal mail backlog.

[sign-it-to-your-room]

The strike started this morning. There is a 70-80% of CC on strike. Many flights canceled (70% in ORY and CDG) or delayed. Flights departing with the minimum required number of CC. It seems that they are using up all the CC Instructors today, the situation should be much worse tomorrow when this resource has run dry. The pilots (some of their Unions) issued a statement supporting the CC. Some Captains have refused to depart if too many CC were missing (even if within the legal number) or with Pursers flying as Cabin Service Managers, or CC flying as Pursers.
The French media observe a strict blackout about the strike, but they won't be able to do so for long because the disruption is really massive.

6 PM update:
80% on strike
298 flights canceled

Blimey! A day in the life at VAA :*

The above is taken from the Air France Strike Thread.

[scoobydooo]

Indeed a sobering read, it is sad when this is the only resort left, will follow it with interest to see how the strike lasts and if the cabin crew get what they are looking.

[sign-it-to-your-room]

It is a sobering read indeed. Especially as twice this week we've been told by BA and AirFrance that they wont allow their flights to depart crew down!
Sounds like heaven!

[exvicar]

The strike will not last for long because the company will go under - strike over! We are still a small player, do not have the backing of the French government, certainly do not have 295 flights to cancel and, having allegedly only made £6million last year, probably do not have the cash reserves to fall back on.

[Kasual Observer]

It’s also very amusing to read Virgin Pilots coming on here and advise against a strike. The very same pilots who not so long ago were prepared to shut the airline down over pay at a more difficult time for the industry post 9/11. If like us they were getting knocked back at the bank for an extension to the Cotswolds pile or a bigger pool for their villas in the South of France they’d probably think twice, well meaning as I’m sure they are.
You are free to do what you like with the free advice. However, you should remember that when we were negotiating our pay deal, we had almost 100% of the pilots in one, professional union. We had 100% confidence in our union reps and we had done our research into what could and what could not be achieved.

By comparison, you, the cabin crew, have at least two unions who have their own agendas undermining each other and the number of you, cabin crew, who are actually members of either of those two unions is patch too. It's one thing declaring 98% of the members have voted one way or another. However, if only 55% to 65% of the cabin crew are actually in either of the unions then it is a bit more difficult to try and convince the management to that you have such massive backing from your members.

Also, by the time we, the pilots, were talking about possible industrial action, we had 100% confidence in our reps. Now, look at you, the cabin crew. You have voted against the recommendations of your elected reps. That is the same as a vote of NO CONFIDENCE in your elected reps. Now, you are again talking of ignoring their advice of acceptance and you are prepared to go into industrial action?

I'm sorry, but it's a no brainer for anyone except the most militant and judging by some of the very amateurish and knee jerk reaction and comment observed on here, you are doomed to failure if you try and take industrial action at this stage. Until you, the cabin crew, can get your collective acts together and get massive support from your co-workers for representation by one, single union who have the wherewithal to train your negotiators on how to go about working on your behalf and have the necessary resources to provide the back-up necessary, then you would, in my humble opinion, be better off accepting the equivalent of "a bird in the hand" and regrouping for the next round of negotiations which should start in about a years time anyway.

If you are going to use our, the pilots, last negotiated settlement with the company as an example, then you should at least be prepared to take a bit of advice from us. We are not stooges trying to undermine you and we certainly believe that you, the cabin crew, are not paid very well for the work and training you do. You have to remember though, the majority of cabin crew are only with the company for about 18 months. They will probably only have one Christmas whilst working here and if your union reps can't figure out that the company know that an offer of a pay increase now plus backdated pay, just before Christmas is most likely to sway the vote in favour of acceptance.

Of course, we'll all find out how everyone who voted thinks in a weeks time. My gut feeling is that the current offer will probably be accepted. I may be wrong and if I am then I think that you are probably heading for trouble because of your divided union leadership and the fact that you are prepared to take industrial action with no confidence in your leadership.

The only way to win your battles is to plan them exceedingly well with confidence in your "generals" and know exactly what resources both you and your enemy have. In the case of the cabin crew, I fear that most of those objectives are missing. I will watch the outcome with interest from the other side of the flight deck door.

Please remember, we are not against you negotiating for a decent pay deal. You have our support. But, if you don't want our advice then we won't give it. As always, we enjoy your visits on the long flights and are more than happy to act as sounding boards for your opinions.

Good luck, because I think you're going to need it.

[scoobydooo]

That is the same as a vote of NO CONFIDENCE in your elected reps. Now, you are again talking of ignoring their advice of acceptance and you are prepared to go into industrial action?


Indeed, but what is one to do half way through negotiations - Boyd is so distanced from the crew in that the union has not even sought to ask what we wanted to achieve out of the negotiations... how does that work....in short it doesn't !

He recommended the last offer which even you KO must think was terrible. So to suddenly have confidence in him on this recommendation is not going to happen. I just hope the formation of Unite bringing the unions together will perhaps change us from being a walkover/pushover by offering backdated pay at Christmas (to be taxed) and then everyone in January goes, "oh.. it's a lot less than I expected I would not have voted for it if I had know It would be so little" ..dejavu :ugh: The sad thing is we said when this started that the company would drag this out till now just to offer that carrot !:yuk:

p.s. if the pilots had a postal ballot due in 5 days and Royalmail had a backlog of post to clear would you accept the result of the ballot or expect it to b extended ? Genuine question.

[Tags]

Indeed, but what is one to do half way through negotiations - Boyd is so distanced from the crew in that the union has not even sought to ask what we wanted to achieve out of the negotiations... how does that work....in short it doesn't !

IMHO Boyd is a Muppet. We all agree on that. I haven't spoken to a single member of crew or one of your company council members that has any respect for him. After he recommended the first deal, the one you all over whelmingly rejected, and released that crappy statement to the press, your reps should have asked him to stand down and use another of the union’s negotiators. It is your union and your negotiation - if you are not happy, you should have spoken up earlier.

Kasual Observer's take on it is spot on. When the pilots were negotiating, all of us understood the deal in its entirety, and the implications of balloting for a strike. Our reps made sure of that with presentations & very well attended member’s road shows. That is not the case with a huge number of your colleagues.

I think you have done very well to get this far; feelings are strong, but sadly I don't think enough members will strike if this pay deal is rejected. That will, without doubt, give the company the upper hand in all future negotiations.

I too believe you should be paid more money, and I also wish you luck.

PS. Not sure about the postal backlog, not seen anything on the news, although I do see a comment on the Royal Mail website about it. Again this should be something that your union is communicating to you about!!

[sign-it-to-your-room]

Oh I'm just so bloody confused now. :}
Everytime a pilot posts on here I agree with them 110%. Then Scoobs does an equally important post and I find myself nodding with him too. Have changed my mind dozens of times. I really dont care now. How awful is that?
Leaving the Union too as I'm clearly of no use :{

[sign-it-to-your-room]

Anyone know what the result was?

[back2front]

cc.com is reporting a NO vote but nothing official yet.

Hope this is right as it will be a huge kick up the bum to the company and they might actually realise we are serious about being paid appropriately.

[back2front]

Unite to Ballot Virgin Atlantic Cabin Crew for Strike Action


LONDON, UNITED KINGDOM--(Marketwire - Nov. 2, 2007) - Virgin Atlantic cabin crew have voted to reject the company's latest pay offer. Unite the Union has today written to give notice to Virgin Atlantic that the union will ballot its members for strike action.

The staff believe that they have been undervalued for too long by Virgin. Their pay considerably lags behind the pay of cabin crew staff working for British Airways who can earn up to GBP 10K more than Virgin cabin crew flying the same business routes. On holiday routes Virgin cabin crew also earn considerably less than their competitors.

In a clear majority, 60% of Virgin's cabin crew voted to reject the company's latest pay offer. Virgin have offered a two year deal where cabin crew staff would receive 4.8% in the first year (from April 2007) and RPI in the second year (from April 2008).

Unite National Officer, Brian Boyd, says:
"Virgin Atlantic cabin crew believe that their professionalism and dedication has been undervalued for far too long. On the same business routes, cabin crew at British Airways can earn GBP 10K more than the cabin crew at Virgin.

"Unite is calling upon Virgin Atlantic to deliver a long term solution to this problem. It has gone on for too long and our members have had enough. Unite has written to the company today to inform them that the union will ballot its members for strike action within the next two weeks."

Unite has 3200 members at Virgin Atlantic.

[VIRGIN CSS]

we are now going to be voting for strike.
I will be voting that we don't go on strike. I voted yes for this offer.
If the majorty vote yes to strike and it goes ahead I will be stopping my union membership and will be going to work to help as virgin get as many flights out as poss. I would urge all other memebers who voted yes this time round to do the same.

[sign-it-to-your-room]

I'm not sure how likely it is, but this could go back to the table, which I am hoping will happen as a strike would be terrible news. I also dont have faith that the majority will vote to strike, and this will be where we fall. The company can then authorise the 2% and nothing else as they do not need to negotiate under duress. Some will be surprised to learn that there are laws protecting them too.

[Jcdcon]

VIRGIN CSS - I will be joining you in offering my services and days off etc.

I think it is a real shame it has come to this. It appears that most voted on the basis of being told to vote NO by colleagues. I hope they realise the path they are now forcing Crew down and its implications.

[pokergirl]

I voted yes to this one too. Only because i was afraid like i said in many previous posts that the percentage of crew would vote no for the deal then no for strike meaning that all this hassle would have been a pointless exercise. I dont want to strike but i dont want 2% either which it will come down to. At this point we all need to stick together more than ever surely.

[Jcdcon]

Poker

If there is a Yes vote to Strike, the % offered may be irrelevant to many - ie those who lose jobs due to serious downsizing. The company cannot afford to strike, and I do not mean that just in monetary terms.

If it does go to strike, I hope the company does come back with a 2% offer. Those who voted no in the hope of getting more money, without thought to actually going on strike deserve the minimum.

And before anyone starts with the moronic claims that I must office based because I am on the companys side, I am actually a CSS.

[Fournier Boy]

Lets not forget that it might not just be Cabin Crew who may loose jobs over this, there are many other departments that will suffer. I mirror Jcdcon's thoughts. Honnestly I think the company is quite at rights to offer what it wishes now - if there are staffing cuts, there most certainly won't be offering even 2% to those that remain, lets go for 0% or even a pay cut - but hey at least you will have your jobs!

I think Cabin Crew have seriously isolated themselves from the rest of the company in this decision - I know I definately won't be going out my way to help Crew.

I'm not tarring you all with the same brush mind you - I applaud the comments from Virgin CSS and Jcdcon in giving up their time to help in the event of a strike. I work with a lot of people like you who regularly go that extra bit to ensure things run a bit smoother, and not for renumeration - afterall I was told when I started what the salary was - if i wanted more I would have moved on.

Still that might be the case now....

FB

[scoobydooo]

Virgin CSS - nice to see you back again :}

It's very spooky or you have an evil twin that posts on cc.com in exactly the same size, color and uncommon Verdana font and 4 minutes earlier and exactly the same text ... perhaps you were seperated at birth and there will be a tearful reunion on a flight soon - Imagine the odds of that that you both work for the same company and one of you is a CSS and the other an FSM !!!

Virgin CSS postwe are now going to be voting for strike.
I will be voting that we don't go on strike. I voted yes for this offer.
If the majorty vote yes to strike and it goes ahead I will be stopping my union membership and will be going to work to help as virgin get as many flights out as poss. I would urge all other memebers who voted yes this time round to do the same.

Virgin FSM post on cc.comwe are now going to be voting for strike.
I will be voting that we don't go on strike. I voted yes for this offer.
If the majorty vote yes to strike and it goes ahead I will be stopping my union membership and will be going to work to help virgin get as many flights out as poss. I would urge all other memebers who votes yes this time round to do the same.

Or I hope that Virgin request a reballot due to the post backlog.
I think the 60% that voted no are fools. They have not only shot themselves in the foot but also every other person who works for Virgin and also our customers.


Unfortunately I stand by my previous observations with regard to your posts - sorry !

[virgin dolly]

Well done to all of you that voted No..! around 2,000 of you...! WOW..! :D

WE must all stand together now and follow this through and send a clear message to the management that we will not be used anymore.

Please do not worry about the last few posts......


Read your rights if we do strike under E.U. law and this info should be available soon.

We, you, me deserve more money...........That's why we joined the union in the first place.

Again Well done,

Take care Dollies..x :ok:

[scoobydooo]

Yes Indeed Dolly - the memo on ifly talks about communications from Legal & HR... more scare talk. They dont seem very happy with Mr Boyd going to the press !! :D

So, moving forward I'm sure everyone will receive information regarding their rights from the union. As has been said the key is to stick together.

Bon Weekend.

[Virgin Boi]

The fact is that the result is a 'NO'.

Regardless of what I voted in this ballot, I now have a choice of 2 options...

1) Vote 'NO' to strike action, and recieve either the original 2% rise, or even less, or even nothing at all.

2) Vote 'YES' to strike action and possibly get a larger than 4.8% rise.

Its a no brainer. Regardless of my votes in previous ballots, its obvious that its now imperative to vote YES to strike action, or loose it all.



The FSM/CSS who is unsure of their identity, and people who brand nearly 3000 union members fools are making rather bold statements given that a clear majority voted no. Resorting to name calling and useless comments like that is rather juvenile, not something we should be resorting to, and smacks of desperation and a lack of clarity or ability to form an argument.

[s3483]

Once again well done to all the crew who voted NO :D. I think the management really thought that this one would go through with their sneaky meetings with FSM's and CSS's. This whole scenario could have been avoided along time ago but unfortunatly they just put more fuel on the fire with the way they decided to deal with the negotiations. The problem we face now is that the company will try to scare us with what will happen if we do strike and I think a lot of crew will be put off by this. More than ever we need to stick together.

[fruitbat]

I struggle to understand some of the naive attitudes on this thread. The loyalty you show is admirable, you have been brain washed with the Virgin ethos, and now you are prepared to work for less than the industry standard. At BA the CC are selfish and militant, but they have probably the best conditions and pay in the industry. Virgin doesn't care about you, Branson puts the profits off shore and claims the company cant afford it, wake up! Its not a big family, sorry to destroy your illusions, its a business and you must fight for the right to be treated and paid like other crew in companies doing a similar job.

[warkman]

Well done to all of you that voted No..! around 2,000 of you...! WOW..!

hang on. You assume a 100% response to the ballot.
All you know is 60% of those who voted were stupid enough to vote No (i.e. vote to lose your jobs in the long run, destroy any goodwill you have with the fare paying passengers etc...)

How many ballots were sent back?

[sign-it-to-your-room]

Ahh Warkman,
I was wondering when you wre going to join us?
What do you think will happen next?
Honest question as I'm actually a fence sitter whose only problem is she loves the company too damn much :{
Its been both enlightening and worrying reading the views of our staff, would have liked to have seen more Office Staff on here along with engineers for their point of view.

[tin tin]

To start my post I should state

A) I do think Virgin crew are under valued and deserve fairer reward.

B) Industrial action, up to and including a strike is a very important right of any employee, and this right should be protected but used very very wisely.


Now given that 40% of the workforce voted to accept the deal, that leaves the union in a much weaker position than most people seem to realise.

Now the facts get even harder to swallow!



If there is now a vote for a strike, we can only expect an even smaller percentage of the total crew establishment to take part in that strike. This means that any strike will be pretty ineffectual. The best any strike will do is keep a FEW aircraft on the ground. Do the maths. This is simply not enough to get what is wanted! And COULD mean the resulting settlement is even less than is on the table now. Dare I say, it could even cost a few people their jobs!!

Unless Virgin cabin crew are a TOTALY UNITED workforce, industrial action this time around will be TOTALY USELESS.:ugh: And the ballot has proved that Virgin cabin crew are definitely NOT TOTALY UNITED. Some were perfectly prepared to accept the the last deal.(and that is their right) This changes the game plan entirely.

If there was a 92% rejection of this offer, no doubt there would be more support for industrial action, but this did not happen.

Troops, the battle is lost but the war is not. You fought a good fight.

Read the writing on the wall
Separate the wood from the trees
Get a different strategy next time around
Do anything you need to
but....

DON'T MARTYR YOURSELVES IN A POINTLESS STRIKE THAT "NOW" CANNOT GET YOU WHAT YOU WANT

[warkman]

I have tried not to post to allow everyone to make their own minds up without outside interferance. :}

I think that there are many of the younger ones who find all of this exciting and will vote for a strike rather like the Rover workers did, when Red Robbo told them to, its something new and exciting, well, untill you see you pay slip or lack of it after a month on strike, plus the fact it will take you years to get back to where you were that £1,000 per month you lose will never come back.

I think VS will try to run routes, less of them, with some flights piggy backing each other (i.e VS15 with VS27) the buisness routes will be their importatnt routes, more UC and gold pax, can't afford to lose them.
So these will be done on minimum staff and perhaps foreign based crew/aircraft? or wet leases perhaps?
It depends on the other sections, will the checkin outsourced staff refuse to service flights? will the cockpit jockies fly those flights? will the baggage handlers and other services refill those flights? probably, most are outsourced now.

Many on the B&S routes may not get away at all, leaving them peed off with both VS and the CC, leading to them jumping ship on their once a year trip to MCO and LAS.
This will lead to crap in the news, less people wanting to fly VS, will mean less jobs and contract terminations.
With the state of the industry (FGS, MYT etc shedding jobs) many will have to leave to get jobs outside the industry.

No-one wins in strikes, apart from rival airlines, especially with the Open Skies coming. Get buisnessmen onto a Delta flight or BA etc, will you ever get them back? Remember the way that VS had to give goodies away after 911 to get bums on seats?

One thing is for sure, it will be a gorgeous picket line! :ok::E:E

[tin tin]

Warkman

Other staff groups cannot get involved, this is called secondary industrial action and is illegal. Sometimes strikes (or just the threat of one) can work, but only at the right time. The right time for virgin crew is clearly not now. I just hope people will open thier eyes and minds to realise this.

[scoobydooo]

This is going to be a rough ride for those crew who are prepared to strike. Unlike BA where most departments are in a union and have stood up for what they want.

In Virgin it is really only the cabin crew and pilots, there will not be much empathy for crew who are prepared to strike from other departments and passengers with flights booked. As a result I expect to read many more posts on all forums (is that the plural of forum ?) against industrial action.

[Grease 7]

along with engineers for their point of view.


Ok then, I totally agree with Warkman. If you look at it logically then if 1000 crew voted yes and another 1000+ are not in the union at all then that is not a good starting point, When it hits home that you do not get paid for striking I am sure that will adjust the yes/no balance even further against a strike.

As warkman has already said if you strike for a week then that is a 2% payrise lost, if you strike for a month then you need 8%+ and you will still be no better off for a year and you will have lost your collegues their jobs. Does that really make sense.


A lot of the other staff I have spoken to are very worried about the possible outcome of a strike and see the crew as (get ready for the flames) selfish. We all work hard and very often have to go even further than the mile beyond the extra mile to keep you all flying. Ok perhaps we earn more but we are at work more and we do can't just do our job for a couple of years before moving on as it takes us at least 7 years to qualify properly. On a hourly rate comparison a technician who has just completed his/her 4 YEARS basic training can expect about the same as CC. To get any amount more he/she has to then sit about 2 years worth of complete b****rd exams in their own time and financed by themselves. They then have to buy all their own tools which can easily run into the thousands. Try seeing that from our perspective.

How many crew are intending to stay for as long as they possibly can? Perhaps that is why we all took 2% this year with not much fuss. It is a longer term prospect for many of us. Some years you win, some you lose. Whatever the case we don't deserve to lose our jobs because the cc are willing to strike without properly thinking through the consequences.

One thing that stick in everyone's throat is sickness. If CC were a bit more moderate with their sickness then there would be an HUGE amount more in the pot to go around (for everyone) . Ok there are always some who are sick more than others but the average per head in CC is horrifying (much much higher than the national average). I know that it is an industry wide thing but why not change it. The CBI estimates £600 per day (total) cost to business for sickness. Work the figures out for yourselves. Perhaps an acceptance of the deal and some work to cut sickness, crew down etc would put you in a much stronger position. It is not that hard really. When you are ill you go sick and when you want a day off you take leave and when you are due into work and can't be bothered you do what the rest of the world does and grit your teeth and go in.


(Braces himself!) Ok then off you go ................

[sign-it-to-your-room]

What other forums are there? Would like to read some stuff from other posters.

[sukigirl]

I feel very dissapointed by the result of the latest ballot. I was however under the impression that if a better offer wasnt made (which I doubt it will be) Then we would automatically strike and there would be no ballot for that.
If this is not the case then as much as I dont feel a strike would be at all beneficial I think it would frustrating to know that there are people who voted no for the pay deal and no to strike as well, whats the point in that? Its just greed and no balls! :ugh:

The last pay offer was not that bad, especially if you take into account the other non pay conditions ie bidding for guarenteed days of stby month etc.. perks which we dont currently have.

I agree with warkman and tin tin, We are not in a strong position, 60% is not a huge ammount of no votes, especially when you consider that not all ballot papers will have been returned and approx another 30% of the workforce are not even union members.

[Leezyjet]

Chaps, if you do vote to strike, can you please make sure that you don't strike around the 14-16th or 20-23rd of Dec. I've not had a holiday since January, and I'm going away around then on staff travel loads permitting.

Cheers.

:ok:

[sign-it-to-your-room]

I can totally see your point of view Grease 7, its a bit like comparing ourselves to the Flight Deck too.
I too thought the last offer was a good one and would have been accepted even though my opinion was swayed towards the end when I gave the crew down situation a bit of thought.
Sickness has always been high at VAA, but we didnt start to experience these awful crew down flights until the management shake-up a few years ago with the arrival of ML and LS et al.
Variable manning was introduced, which is total joke and has NEVER worked. It just saves the company money at the expense of our pax. So I cant help thinking that most flights deliberately go crew down with a cover as 'crew sickness'. Just my theory.
One thing that I do think is quite admirable is that the company have left the current offer on the table. I thought that would have been withdrawn immediately. If this remains it gives the crew a rather large safety net.
I shall not be voting in this ballot as I am no longer a union member.

[Grease 7]

I can see why a crew down situation can make things difficult but it is the same everywhere.

For example, a shift of engineers. 2 on leave, 1 on a course, 1 sick. Do they delay the aircraft for us, No. We all just pull out the stops and work harder than usual. If the plane doesn't fly then we don't have jobs which is a whole lot worse than working hard.

Both me and the people I work with really know what it feels like to finish a shift completely and utterly exhausted but that's life. The legal requirements for manpower have been met, the aircraft are flying and safe, the passengers happy and we have a job. Just go to bed and hope tomorrow is easier.

It is funny because engineers have a reputation for being able to find fault with anything and complain about everything but when it really comes down to it they just seem to pull together and get on with it with the minimum fuss.

I am not saying you are wrong to complain but just don't think it is any different anywhere else.

[warkman]

I would still like to know how many actually voted out of the 3200 members.
What is the 60% sixty percent of?

[Grease 7]

I would still like to know how many actually voted out of the 3200 members.
What is the 60% sixty percent of?


Nowhere near 3200, of that you can be sure.

[alfamatt]

Firstly, just to say that I am a BA crew member, with a couple of good friends who work for VS.
My opinion is that going through this situation is very stressful for all concerned. C.crew by nature are not necessarily militant/communist/Scargill loving people, & do not undertake going to a possible strike/industrial action lightly.
It will get worse before it gets better. There will be rumours of what the management will do if a strike goes ahead,eg suspending strikers, cancelling services & the company going bust. Personally, I very much doubt any of this will happen & is scaremongering. But it is undoubtedly very scary & convincing, especially if you haven't been through a strike before.
Don't count on too much support from other depts, Selfishness will soon see that off. You will be in this alone, but only you can fight for your terms & conditions. The press will attempt to crucify you. The same old cliche's about trolleydollies lazing around on a beach while the poor old nurses are still underpaid will probably be peddalled out.
It seems from reading through this thread that sadly,there is already a split growing from your community, eg the FSM's seem to think its a good deal & vote yes, whilst the junior crew members disagree. The deal does look quite loaded in favour of the senior ranks, I think. This split will grow,just when unity is most needed.
Try not to get side-tracked into various hypothetical issues. Keep focussed on the real issues.
You will get told that this is the "final final final offer", which will be withdrawn if not accepted. Remember this is a simple negotiation tactic. A deal will be done, & probably with about one minute to go before the deadline. Its one big game of brinkmanship. You won't get 100% of your wishlist, but stand firm & united & hopefully you will get a reasonable outcome for all crew & your customers.
All the best.:D

[Tom Sawyer]

OK, more comments from engineering (and a few other feelings I have picked up on from other departments).
Your right, you are in for a rough ride. Most other departments do not support you. Simple truth is that you have turned down a pay offer that is over twice what UK staff got and just accepted. You have to admit that makes you look very selfish. In general nobody in VS is fantastically paid. Those that don't like that in the long run move on, we all have that option. Funny how many people come back though, I can think of 6 straight off.
It does seem to me that there is a lot of "sheep" about as well. If you check one of my earlier posts you will see I spoke to one CC who couldn't even explain the offer that had been made and was going to vote no because everyone else was. Pretty pathetic really.
Route allowances: As I said earlier as well, your allowances are far better than anything that we get when on company business. Another point that you will get no support on.
Crew down: Every flight I have departed this week has had crew call in sick for. Every time I have worked Christmas (about 5 in the past 11) or New Year ( 8 in 11) crew have called in sick. Nobody in my department who was rostered to work called in sick. We just get on with it. The sickness only exacerbates a situation, which I actually think you may have a point on.
There is also a lot of external pressures building at the momment. Possible recesession, oil prices rising, open skies. It seems that a lot of people in other departments realise this, not exactly the ideal time to take action is it?

One other story; I was in the galley working the other day. CC were chatting and one said "weren't those Strawberry Daquieries great last night" and went on to talk about a particular bar. Wish I could afford to go out and drink cocktails in that place. Managed to bite my lip and walk away before getting into a "discussion" on how hard up CC supposedly are.
Shame really as I get on very well with some crew. Hope things don't progress to the point where our assistance in those little things that makes your life easier is withdrawn due to bad feeling.

Think long. Think hard. This time it is not just about "you".

[sukigirl]

just recieved a letter from the union today as im sure that some of you also have by now.

Seems that there will be another ballot for industrial action, though was interested that the company has left the same offer on the table, where did you hear that sign it? If this is true then I think there still could be a chance that we may end up with the 4.8%

Just for anyones info who hasnt yet received their letter, only 69% of people who received there ballot paper returned them. 60% numbers rejected, 40% accepted.

[scoobydooo]

Quote:
I would still like to know how many actually voted out of the 3200 members.
What is the 60% sixty percent of?
Nowhere near 3200, of that you can be sure.

It would be interesting but doesnt really make any difference now. Thanks alfamatt for your words of support, it's something a lot of us expect. It's nice to see that some of our passengers to undersatnd too, this is taken from the V-flyer website,

I would expect the 40% who were for the offer to cooperate with the 60% who were not. If roles were reversed the same would be expected.

And FWIW I've got a flight with VS in December too.

[BY_boy]

This really doesnt help things when the company says there is no more money??

THE SPICE GIRLS’ touring costs have been slashed after airline Virgin Atlantic pledged to fly them around the world for free.
The quintet hit the road at the beginning of December for their eagerly awaited comeback shows and Virgin boss RICHARD BRANSON has allowed the ladies to use his airline gratis.
In return the fivesome – EMMA BUNTON, VICTORIA BECKHAM, GERI HALLIWELL, MEL B and MEL C will have to undertake a certain amount of promotional work for the firm.
Bearded Branson said, “Virgin signed the Spice Girls 12 years ago and I got to know them at that time.
“So, we are absolutely delighted to be working with them on their reunion tour and really pleased to have the honour of taking to girls out to LA for their rehearsals, but even more importantly bringing them back to the UK for the British leg of their tour.”

www.thesun.co.uk (http://www.thesun.co.uk)

[vs_lhr]

So, if 69% returned the ballots, that would imply it was less than 42% who voted no?

This gives us an interesting scenario for the strike ballot, because whilst some have been worried that 11% who voted no this time may vote no to a strike, actually the bigger issue is that the 31% who didn't vote at all last time will vote no to actively avoid a strike.

Look at it this way; Out of the total union membership:

41.4% voted no
27.6% voted yes
31% didn't vote

The mandate for industrial action doesn't look so strong. The picture looks even more fragmented when considering 30% of the cabin crew workforce aren't in the union, then the breakdown is this:

28.98% voted no
19.32% voted yes
51.7% didn't vote, or couldn't vote

This is bad news whichever way you look at it, and the spin the union is putting on it is only aggravating management and putting fear and uncertainty in the minds of customers.

[Loyal FSM]

I voted for the previous pay deal and have to say I am frustrated at having been put in this position, to say the least. For once I actually believed that the company were going to sort out the FSM/CSS pay issue, although their promises were vague.

However, we seem to have boxed ourselves into a corner and now there is no choice but to vote for a strike. To do anything less shows weakness in our position and would allow the company to really do as they please. A no to strike is the worst of all positions.

We have been asked to put up or shut up. With a heavy heart we now need to put up - all of us.

[virgin dolly]

I agree with Alfamatt this is going to be a tough ride.

Before attending the forum with management I was on the fence as 4.8 % is pretty good. I felt a bit brain washed by the management and issues that we talk about crew down, variable manning etc were not really addressed and brushed to one side. I thought that's why the management wanted us there to understand what we really were unhappy about but I was disappointed.

My last two flights went crew down while crew in different ranks were still on standby in check in...?
Had a delay inbound of just under 5 hours to be told I will only get £10..?

"Five hours of my time for £10 thats £2 per hour isn't that under the minimum wage".

So if I had said yes to the pay deal I'm accepting the above conditions..?

My opinion is that there is more money in the pot and the company will frighten us with job losses etc. But now that recruitment has now stopped who is there to make redundant when everything runs on a shoe string and so many cut backs have been made.
It's all about profits these days that's why so many strikes have taken place over the world.
The company can come in at the last minute just before a strike with a better pay deal. A 60% NO vote is sending a clear message to the management that there is a problem.


We have been given a voice and a vote by having a union which sends a clear message to rest of the company and the outside world that enough is enough. The company have put us in this position and I feel it sad that this is the only way that our voices can be heard.

I'm not willing to put up with these conditions anymore so I'm standing firm and tight. This attitude from the management is if you don't like it then leave...Wrong...I've put years into this company and all I'm asking for is to be respected with a decent pay package.

Regards,

Virgin Dolly :ok:

[vs_lhr]

I, for one, don't believe there is any more money in the pot - or even if there is, management are not going to go any further. It would make their position untenable going into future pay discussions.

The 60% isn't a "clear message" when that's actually less than 30% of the cabin crew in total.

[sign-it-to-your-room]

"The 4.8% remains on the table"

I got this bit of info from iFly; cant remember who asks me.

[Fournier Boy]

Virgin Dolly

Don't think you seem to realise how you get paid... 5 hours delay for £10 under the minimum wage?.

Remember this is on top of your normal wages for being at work that day, you are paid a wage to do a certain number of contractual hours each year, be it 750, be it 900, be it whatever. Divide your duty hours by what your basic salary is, that is your hourly rate. This delay money is on top of that. Don't argue about time down route as well, your allowances are for your time there, and although it may not be that high per hour when you work it out, remember, this unlike your normal wages, is tax free.

This is one thing that really really infuriates me about crew, its been said by others too, DO YOUR SUMS and KNOW YOUR FACTS before making silly winging statements. Crew down payments, commission from sales, and all those discounts you get down route for your crew social club are all bonus'. Before you pick holes in me, I live with VS crew and all this has been explained to me.

An interesting point that has come up in engineering many a time recently is if you are really that hard up, why do you all drive relatively new cars? There wasn't a single old banger in the Car Park this morning, lots of 206 convertibles all with their nice VS stickers hanging in the windows.

[BY_boy]

Fournier boy, please do not tarnish us all with the same brush. There are many crew out there that do not have 'new' cars and so what if they do, its down to each personal circumstances!

As for crew down, if the company roster flights with 18 crew then they should ensure 18 crew are on that flight. Why should our pax and the other crew suffer on that flight?

Also as for commission, this is a standard for any sales related job, so really it is not a bonus. The company want us to sell, they have to give us an incentive. Its the same for travel agents. Virgin want them to sell their seats so they have to give them an incentive to do it.

[virgin dolly]

Hi,

Thought I would just update you all on the bigger picture,

Quote; Airline Industry news,

Virgin Atlantic Airways has had continued rise in growth in September with 14.9% a 1.1% rise which now has 12.5% of the market.

Found on the B.A. website.....!

I don't think we are going to downsize to all of those who are worried and this is just making the can of worms bigger ............?

Well Done to all of the VAA team on this great success .....but why has this not gone on I-fly..?

Regards,

Virgin Dolly :ok:

[scoobydooo]

With Regards to 4.8% offer staying on the table, look at it from the other side if it was pulled would more or less people vote to strike - I believe more, so wouldn't be smart of the company to pull the offer.

I see lots of other departments getting involved calling us selfish, I see the one that isn't calling us selfish is the flight crew, who are the other unionised department who have been down this road (though times were different and the situation different).

Selfish - why because we are tying to improve our working conditions - the negotiations have failed so the remaining tool is now being used as the flight crew did a few years back. I suppose it is selfish in that it's my bills, my mortgage and my years of seniority that I shouldn't have to give up to go and work for the likes of BA to get a fair package.

All the sympathy in the world for other departments wont pay my bills.

Other departments in virgin saying we are greedy because we had 2x what they got. Rest assured the flight crew will get min RPI, so does that make them selfish too, were they selfish to nearly strike a few years ago ? no they were proactive and did something about their T&C's so does that not perhaps show that a unionised workforce works. You can throw as much blame as you like at the cabin crew for striking, could I suggest that a portion of that blame go in the managements direction also who have failed to further negotiate, we are still willing to go to the table.

As for the numbers in the vote, doesn't matter if only 10 people returned it, that's democracy. I suggest those not happy at work in a non union work force join one to stop yourselves being exploited.

:ugh:

[tin tin]

I think the best that can be hoped for, is that the company implement this offer regardless of the ballot result, and hopefully the few who are still talking about industrial action start to realise the futility of a strike.


EVEN THOUGH 60% VOTED NO, THAT 60% OF VOTERS IS A MINORITY OF THE WHOLE CABIN CREW ESTABLISHMENT. THERE IS NO STRENGTH IN THIS POSITION, YOUR UNION COULD NOW EASILY BE DESTROYED FROM WITHIN. DON'T LET IT HAPPEN. A STRIKE NOW, WILL NOT GET WHAT IS WANTED.


A strike now, will destroy the Cabin Crew union in Virgin, and destroy any hope of achieving something meaningful in the future. If you fail to see this and continue down a path of obvious self destruction via pointless industrial action the image of the all trade unions will be damaged. Trade unions have come a long way since the seventies, and a lot of people have worked very hard to achieve their present standing, so don't send them back, NO-ONE WILL THANK YOU. And certainly not the pilots.

[Penguinpoo]

What I don't understand is what you actually want???

[Grease 7]

I see lots of other departments getting involved calling us selfish, I see the one that isn't calling us selfish is the flight crew, who are the other unionised department who have been down this road (though times were different and the situation different).If the times and situation were different then there is no comparison to be made is there?

Selfish - why because we are tying to improve our working conditions - the negotiations have failed so the remaining tool is now being used as the flight crew did a few years back. I suppose it is selfish in that it's my bills, my mortgage and my years of seniority that I shouldn't have to give up to go and work for the likes of BA to get a fair package.No but as I have already said perhaps you all need to help yourself. A very quick calculation working on only hourly rate shows that if the crew only halved their sickness levels that would free up at least an extra £1500 pa for every single crew member. That is nowhere near the true amount that would be gained, that is a much higher figure. And if you are really that unhappy perhaps you should move on. There appears to be a queue waiting to fill your shoes.

If you read my previous post you will see that your pay rates are pretty close to a technician in engineering. What makes you worth more than them? Is what you do for the airline worth more? Why should you get a bigger payrise. Is flying round the world dealing with passengers worth than getting soaked changing wheels or stripping toilets down or any of the 100's of other filthy jobs we have to do.

All the sympathy in the world for other departments won’t pay my bills. No but me getting made redundant because you turned down 2.5x the payrise I had won’t pay mine either. And have you worked out how long it will take you to recoup money lost if you strike, that won't pay your bills either.Could I suggest that a portion of that blame go in the managements direction also who have failed to further negotiate, we are still willing to go to the table.Yes but how much exactly do you want?
As for the numbers in the vote, doesn't matter if only 10 people returned it, that's democracy. I suggest those not happy at work in a non union work force join one to stop yourselves being exploited.
At best laughable, at worst seriously insulting. Perhaps some time in the real world would teach you what being exploited really is. You obviously have no idea at all. :ugh:

[Raffles]

Tom, good to see such supportive comments!!!
Your right, you are in for a rough ride. Most other departments do not support you. Simple truth is that you have turned down a pay offer that is over twice what UK staff got and just accepted. Who's the fools then? You have to admit that makes you look very selfish. Very selfish, getting paid what percentage of your salary? In general nobody in VS is fantastically paid. Those that don't like that in the long run move on, we all have that option. Funny how many people come back though, I can think of 6 straight off.
It does seem to me that there is a lot of "sheep" about as well. If you check one of my earlier posts you will see I spoke to one CC who couldn't even explain the offer that had been made and was going to vote no because everyone else was. Pretty pathetic really. And believing the company hype of getting the back pay before Xmas isn't pathetic? Route allowances: As I said earlier as well, your allowances are far better than anything that we get when on company business. Another point that you will get no support on. Get your union to sort it out instead of getting bitter & twistedCrew down: Every flight I have departed this week has had crew call in sick for. Every time I have worked Christmas (about 5 in the past 11) or New Year ( 8 in 11) crew have called in sick. Nobody in my department who was rostered to work called in sick. We just get on with it. The sickness only exacerbates a situation, which I actually think you may have a point on. More horse poop, once heard of an engineer that regurlarly went sick just to get Friday night off (we all over hear people talking on the aircraft)There is also a lot of external pressures building at the momment. Possible recesession, oil prices rising, open skies. It seems that a lot of people in other departments realise this, not exactly the ideal time to take action is it? First sensible thing you've said, so if money is so tight why squander it on The Base or flying The Spice Girls around the world??
One other story; I was in the galley working the other day. CC were chatting and one said "weren't those Strawberry Daquieries great last night" and went on to talk about a particular bar. Wish I could afford to go out and drink cocktails in that place. Managed to bite my lip and walk away before getting into a "discussion" on how hard up CC supposedly are. So the girls went out for a few drinks, so what should they do on an evening stay in & paint their nails?? For many downroute IS their life & when they do their socialising
Shame really as I get on very well with some crew. Hope things don't progress to the point where our assistance in those little things that makes your life easier is withdrawn due to bad feeling. Easy, what if the crew don't bother with you & the family when enjoying your J upgrades??

Think long. Think hard. This time it is not just about "you". A bit like all the engineers did a few years ago when upset about the payment for the A346, are you having a touch of memory failure??

[Right Way Up]

Tom,
I would keep your thoughts to yourself . You do yourself & colleagues a disservice by going down the line of "them and us"! BTW I think your assistance is the least you could do for all the breakfasts the crews left you guys! ;)

[vs_lhr]

Oh dear. Clearly the damage is done. Bridges with the SLF have been burnt, and now those with ground crew are aflame. :ugh:

The company simply can't afford a strike, either in direct costs or longterm goodwill. Voting for it is short-sighted, and will cost many jobs - or worse still, the whole thing will collapse.

[Right Way Up]

VS_LHR. First point the company can afford it. As they can afford to pay the groundstaff a decent wage. They are past masters at pleading poverty to suit their situation. Second point please don't take my post as cabin crew against groundstaff. I am not CC & left VS a few years ago after 10 years service. Sadly I saw the way the company was going. VS need a good clearout of the deadwood in management & get back to the way they were which was a dynamic "lean" company snapping at the heels of the establishment. Unfortunately they have become the very company they were trying to beat decades ago. Overbloated, overstaffed and overmanaged!

[vs_lhr]

Please read my post again. I said the company can't afford a strike, which it clearly can't for the reasons I posted.

My point regarding pitching crew vs other staff was more aimed at Raffles and others who are drawing lines in the sand. That damage is going to be far reaching.

[Virgin89]

Does no one on here realise what damage a stike will do to this company?

The management are not going to come back with another offer. That is clear as they have left the 4.8% on the table for the duration of the next ballot. If they were going back round the table then they would not leave this offer on the table. They would pull it.

It has been mentioned that all this talk of job losses is just scare mongering and that this won't happen. Trust me, as an FSM with 19 years service and someone who has been through this before, it will happen.

New routes that the company have recently started would be pulled. There are two that have launched the past week, with others that are no doing as good as they could be, so could be pulled. They pulled routes after 9-11 as they had too. They will do it again.

Each aircraft that operates a daily route requires around 90 crew. This takes into account a daily service, sickness, leave etc. Times this by the a amount of routes pulled (4) and you are left with nearly 400 job losses in all ranks.

Any new route takes 2-3 years to make money on so pulling ones that have just started doesn't cost the company that much.

Remember, age legislation now doesn't allow any company to conduct redundancies on a 'last in first out' procedure. Is has to be done on performance. This is now the law and seniority within rank counts for nothing when a company now goes into a redundancy situation.

We should take the 4.8% that is still on offer, elect a new union that can fight for what we want and listen to us and then go into the next pay talks in a much stronger position.

We will win nothing this way.

Each day we stike the pay offer becomes less and less. Does anyone out there really think that by going on stirke we will enhance out offer? if so I am sorry to say you are living in the clouds, not just working in them.

We all want more but this road we are now on is a sure way to ensure that we and many others in the company get less.

Good luck to all of you. I for one will not be voting for stike action. It's a company I love and have given a lot too. I don't want to see another 9-11 when in a few years we could be so much stonger and have a union we believe in.

[Litebulbs]

Who says Vs simply cant survive is its cabin crew go on strike? The VS management team, thats who. If they push through this 4.8% deal, then they will be amply rewarded. 4.8% on a 5hite wage is just a little bit more of 5hite, say £500 a year more take home. It is hardly film star wages. If the ground staff feel hard done by, get a union, get organised and get more money.
Dicky don't give two monkeys about his human resource as long as that resource is filling up his bank account. The man is an entrepreneur who can see an opportunity and exploit it. Exploit him. The battles he had back in the 80's against Mr King and BA where great. His brand took on the establishment and won. But it was his people, not resource, that helped him do that. Maybe, the Virgin brand needs to have a little step back and realise this.
When I see that BMW ramp car driving around LGW, I chuckle. It may be a managers company car, BUT, if you are in negotiations with your employees about pay, don't take the pi55. If you were that hard done by as a business, an 01 plate Focus would do.
You cannot use lifestyle as an argument towards the renumeration package. Yeah, staff travel is good and sitting on a beach is nice, but pay is pay.
The VS management team are doing their job. Don't strike or we are all out of a job. This just is not true.
Anyway, the best of luck in your choice. The debate on this thread has been an enjoyable read and many well balanced points have been voiced.

[vs_lhr]

If you think Virgin will come out of any strike action unscathed, you are seriously deluded. The mere hint of a ballot on striking has sent the frequent flyers on V-Flyer into a tail-spin - and because this is now all over the media, you can be sure as eggs is eggs the same thoughts are going through the minds of thousands of pax who are thinking 'don't screw up the trip I've been saving for all year'. Corporate travel planners will be calm about the whole thing, though. They'll simply switch their booking to BA 'just in case'. Then, if the strike ballot comes back a 'yes' as you so gleefully predict, the situation will be the same, only magnified by ten.

Take the average load today, and reduce it by a conservative 10% for the fear and uncertainty of a strike. For simplicity's sake, call it 30 passengers. What's the average turnover on those 30 seats across the three cabins? Well, let's keep it simple and say they were all in Y, and they were a very reasonable £300 a piece. That's £9K you've lost on that flight. Multiply that over 80 flights a day. £720K. Then let's look at the profit reported last year. It was a "record" according to the press releases, of £41.6m. Conservatively, the impact of a threatened or real strike would have an impact on the airline for at least 3 months - and that would be working hard to get back pax who deserted, or even directly effected by industrial action. That 10% downturn for just 3 months would cost the company £64.8m in turnover - so on last year's figures, they're already £23m in the red - and that's using very conservative figures which don't account for an actual strike or the long-term loss of corporate accounts. How many jobs would need to be cut just to break even?

Don't be fooled, this strike - and even just the possibility of it - is going to cost the company dear, and unless it can be nipped in the bud pretty damn quick, there will have to be a lot of cutbacks to stay afloat.

You are offering no evidence that the company can afford this, but you are being very cavalier with the livelihoods of others.

You seem to forget, when 'Dicky' won the dirty tricks court case, he gave the proceeds to the staff.

[sign-it-to-your-room]

I'm with Virgin 89.
The thought of a strike scares me somewhat, but i take comfort in that I dont believe the cfrew will have the balls to do it. Why? Because this is just a big drama to a lot of them, most dont even understand what is going on! I keep hearing the same old story of we want our pay in line with other airlines, but no-one (except scoobs) has actually stipulated what they want. Do they even know what they want? I guess the thought of losing a few days pay will be enough to make most not vote.
As a guideline, here are the salaries (per day) of what crew stand to lose:
JNR £55
SNR £63
CSS £76
FSM £89
Those are just off the top of my head, I do have the actual figures in my house but not about to look at this hour.
Add on top of this trip pay/commission/allowances and there is quite a significant loss.
I've no idea what would happen down route. If I ruled the airline and my crew refused to board a plane I certainly wouldnt pay for accomodation or extra allowances, so not sure what would happen in these circumstances.

I'm all for getting extra pay as a manager, sorting out this crew down situation (which is not down to crew sickness, if that were the case why is it a comparatively new thing?), but not at the expense of a strike and the possibility of job losses.
I dont think it is scare tactics, I think it is called real life; I am not a union member now and apparantly I am the most vulnerable to lose my job because of this!
I do believe that I am underpaid as a Manager and that the 4.8% wont really bring me in line with other Managers (airline or within VAA); however I do believe that this will eventually be addressed, and for what its worth I'm hardly overworked! Okay, I'll probably get lynched for that last comment, but its true. For the hours that I work and the lifestyle that I lead, I think I'm in a win win situation. Of course I get pissed off with the company at times, but like Grease 7 said "I just grit my teeth and get on with it hoping that the weather will be good down-route"!

This whole situation has saddened me. I've swayed to and fro seeing the argument from both sides. Now I just want us to accept thye 4.8% on the table and get back to normality. This is going to sound awful, and i do apologise, but I feel that the airline I work for has been invaded by a group of people who just dont care or listen. I sometimes think "How dare you ask for such an increase after such a short service". I feel that I can ask for an increase as I joined so many years ago and worked my way up, but if you knew that salary in the last couple of years then why the big fuss?

Off to bed now and I await the barrage of abuse I'll recieve for that last comment:zzz:

[Fournier Boy]

"I would keep your thoughts to yourself . You do yourself & colleagues a disservice by going down the line of "them and us"! BTW I think your assistance is the least you could do for all the breakfasts the crews left you guys!"

As a matter of fact, I think he actually explains the current feeling in the engineering department very well. You've done yourselves no favours.

You, the crew, are the ones you have isolated yourselves from the rest of the company, not Tom/Grease 7/whoever it is.

[Tom Sawyer]

I know I shouldn't reply as I will only get flamed............
However a few pages back somebody asked about input from other departments, not just engineering and obviously this is a hot topic at the momment around the company. I do not want to turn this into an "us and them", I just reported some feelings and instances around the company that I have picked up on. As I said I get on very well with a number of crew and reckon in general you do a great job. As for your levels of pay, as I previously stated in an earlier post, I really don't know what the going rate is around the world. I know I can get more elsewhere, but it isn't always as clear cut as has been pointed out numerous times in this discussion. I'm sure that is the same for all of us.
To answer a few of Raffles' points.
1. I can't help the fact that payrises are % based. Yes I may get paid more but my training and such like puts me and others such as pilots, accounts etc in that position. An old can of worms that has been discussed many a time. Maybe if they company offered everyone a £500 a year payrise instead it would appear fairer, but can't see it coming about.
2. Allowances. I wasn't complaining. I think what I get per night is more than adequate. So how come crew find their higher allowances inadequate? Hence the story about the crew drinks. Of course I don't begrudge anyone having a few on their allowances. However it is pretty contradictory to read one thing and hear another in the current climate.
3. Spice Girls etc. It is called free advertising and publicity. Yes it may cost the comapny a bit to transport them and their crew around the world, but I'm sure it is more than offset by the product exposure and brand awareness.
4. Lack of service if I'm in J on staff travel. A great example of how this whole affair could go on an us & them basis. Nobody wants it, so why provoke it with an unwanted strike?
5. A346 engineering "dispute". (Convienently) I can't remember the full details, but pretty sure it wasn't pay related as the eng Tier System was being implemented around that time. More to do with lack of training / exposure to the type. There was a lot of politics and lies going on as well that muddied the water. Certainly would not have led to industrial action as we are non-unionised, and under the conditions of engineers licenses we should not sign out an aircraft under such circumstances. But overall I guess you may have a valid point.

No matter what I guess this will easily turn into an slanging match between CC and any other departments. My main aim was to report what is / could happen if things do descend any further, and back it up with examples. However for one of mine there is always one of yours and our individual entrenchments will never meet.
As I said; Think long. Think hard............and thanks for the breakfasts:)

[scoobydooo]

After a cracking night out I have come in only to be saddened by the them us posts that are ongoing. Unfortunately this is a bi-product of any strike scenario regardless of the company/industry especially when there are other departments who do not have adequate representation to ensure they get what they deserve.

A lot has been said regarding us poo-poo'ing a deal 2-2.5x more than other departments have received. You must remember though that the cabin crew are attempting to bring themselves in line with counterparts in other airlines. This will seem like a large % initially, once this initial correction has been made I would imagine many crew would be happy with raises in line with RPI. (look back to the initial % increase the pilots received - it was modest to say the least, but now any changes are relatively minor)

I am saddened it has come to this, I can honestly say though hand on heart that if engineering or checking or base admin and their unions (if they were adequately represented) felt that the only way left to pursue a fair deal in their respective departments was by striking then I would fully support you. I might not be able to join in, secondary action being illegal etc but if I was on a day off I would certainly bring bacon rolls and tea & coffee to your line, but that's just me, the way I am, I dont believe anyone should be getting "shafted". When I read all the information relating to how virgin is doing financially, sales revenue, turnover, everything is on the up yet other departments were offered a poor 2% that sucks - as said before, the two departments that are heavily represented by unions do not stand for this, please please please get yourselves represented - it is your right and will benefit you in the long run

I agree with the comments regarding sickness, there are some who make it worse for others, I have been sick 3 days in the last year due to blocked ears and there are many who are also proud to have low sickness.

Regarding the comment I've no idea what would happen down route. If I ruled the airline and my crew refused to board a plane I certainly wouldn't pay for accommodation or extra allowances, so not sure what would happen in these circumstances.

I believe when this can potentially happen the outbound is basically not operated, if it was there would be a fuss regarding an employees duty of care for the crew and not allowing the crew to carry out their legal right to strike on an organised strike day - I think that's why the airlines try to avoid this scenario (please note this paragraph is all think - I do not know 100% for sure) but I would expect the union to provide answers to such questions with an accompanying leaflet with the strike ballot.

11% more votes is all that is required, I strongly urge the company to hold immediate talks with the union, change something that you think will cater for 11% of those votes and offer a new deal which can be sent out with the strike ballots.

I cant think of one crew member I know who wants to strike, we would rather this was resolved amicably however my hand (I say "I" as I cant speak for others but I think it's a "we") is being forced into this situation.

When other departments have been forced to use the threat of strike and to strike as a last resort they have been supported by other departments - why are we different ?

:(

[Right Way Up]

VS_LHR,
Apologies. What I meant to say is that VS can afford an increase in crew wages. Funny how comms are not so good after going down the pub. :O
Fournier Boy
As a matter of fact, I think he actually explains the current feeling in the engineering department very well. You've done yourselves no favours
FB. My issue is not the fact that other departments are against the crew striking. I would feel the same, but it is the little comments against the crew e.g. the cocktails, withdrawing all "your" help that to be frank is ridiculous and puts your department in a bad light. Sure state your objection & reasons to the crews actions but leave it at that!
I also reiterate I am not cabin crew. I was with with VS for 10 years. I am now at a company that pays the industry rate for my profession and am about to receive shares equivalent to 1/3 of my wage. VS have always pleaded poverty during wage negotiations, and historically apart from one years pilot negotiations the workforce have bent over! These paytalks are not about rpi + x %, they are about redressing the balance as VS are paying the lowest rates in the industry.
Overall this will be a scary time for all at VS and I would agree with VS_LHR that VS cannot afford a strike. I would suggest that the crew will very soon receive a new deal which will allow both sides to withdraw with everything intact. The fact is that VS "mismanagement" have allowed this situation to escalate when it shouldn't have.
BTW out of interest would you guys in ENG consider yourselves paid the industry rate?

[Grease 7]

BTW out of interest would you guys in ENG consider yourselves paid the industry rate?


Honestly - No. BUT - most of us have moved around a bit, mostly due to redundancy, and when you have worked elsewhere you realise that pay is not everything. In general Virgin is a much better place to work than pretty much all the places I have worked. There is nowhere near as much whinging etc as you get elsewhere, we actually have decent equipment etc to work with and the management are, in general, much more sensible than a lot of other places. So as I said, pay isn't always everything.


As they can afford to pay the groundstaff a decent wage


How many time do I have to say this? The hourly rates for CC are not that different to Technicians. And Technicians are pretty well paid compared to other ground staff. That means that your rates are well up there and certainly above a lot of ground and office staff.

[warkman]

So,
to get this in perspective of the 4.8% deal on the table, a crew member earning £55 a day, on strike for two weeks, negates the increase for the whole year.
Those advocating strike action must have either
a) someone else paying the bills
b) savings they can pizz away
c) not thought out how they are going to pay the bills or don't care they are going to be worse off in the long run.
Madness.

Strikertworedshoes,
You haven't got the backing for a strike.
Only 41% of the union crew voted no, then rest, some 59% either voted yes, or did not return their ballot papers. none of them will vote for a strike. as a group, some of the 41% won't want to take it the next level, they have bills to pay regardless.

You are only 30% of the total crew who voted no, some 1,000 odd only, if you go on strike with such a small portion of the crew, you aint gonna win.
Just remember that when redundancies do come they have 1,000 odd to choose first.

Forget union solidaritry, when you have a mortgage payment, that goes out the window. I expect the people who did not send back their ballot papers to vote no to a strike, why should they vote for a strike when they have showed they don't really care about the dispute one way or another?

[vs_lhr]

Overall this will be a scary time for all at VS and I would agree with VS_LHR that VS cannot afford a strike. I would suggest that the crew will very soon receive a new deal which will allow both sides to withdraw with everything intact. The fact is that VS "mismanagement" have allowed this situation to escalate when it shouldn't have.
I'm afraid I disagree; firstly with your putting the blame at the feet of management (because they were negotiating with a union who didn't actually know what cc wanted, so where probably told that 4.8% was the payrise the crew were fighting for), and secondly I don't think there is going to be any further offers. Both crew and management are painted into a corner. If management crack, they will be screwed for future pay negotiations.
If it comes to a strike, and assuming it's only about 30% of the crew that cause it (because of the percentage of the crew that are in the union, and then the percentage of them that actually vote), that would seriously effect flights - but it wouldn't ground them all. The company would certainly have better resources to battle through than a JNR losing £55 a day, or an FSM at £89. Are you really prepared for a fight? It will be a bloody battle if you really want to go through with it, and it'll only cause more polarisation between staff than a few comments on internet forums. You think, after the strike is over, you'll be able to flounce into the airport with a smile (assuming you've kept your head above water after all that time without pay), and the colleagues you'd been calling scabs will welcome you back with open arms? Get real. No-one is going to win in the event of a strike.

[scoobydooo]

Those advocating strike action must have either
a) someone else paying the bills
b) savings they can pizz away
c) not thought out how

Or be looking for a fair deal ! When you buy a lottery ticket are you down with misery because you have lost £1 or are you focused on the end result ?

Walkman - you keep going on about the % of the crew and the non votes. It really doesn't matter if in the next round 50% of people dont return the votes and of the remaining 50% 30% votes Yes and the remainder vote no that 30% of the 3200 is enough to carry a 60-40% in favour of action. So... clearly 30% is strong enough. The numbers do not mater - it is a "snapshot" of the crew. You can argue till you are blue in the face about the actual number of votes but it makes no difference.


Just remember that when redundancies do come they have 1,000 odd to choose first.

Not that I think it;s relevant but you will find there are strict criteria as to who goes first, not selective criteria - that's illegal. :=

I expect the people who did not send back their ballot papers to vote no to a strike And others I have spoken to who did vote yes now believe they have to unite with the striking crew. example - http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3678398&postcount=357

We shall just have to wait and see.

Edited to add - Walkman do you actually work for Virgin ? Just wondered as it would appear from searching all of your posting you spend a lot of time on PPRuNe having lots to say about lots of discussions ? I did chuckle at this quote of yours Let's not forget Virgin Atlantic's role in this rip off of their passengers, especially as they have tried to sell themselves as ethically superior to BA when all along they are no different.

[Right Way Up]

VS_LHR don't be afraid its only your point of view! ;)
The management cock-up imho is not from this pay talk, it is the years of not redressing the balance of wages. They are now reaping what they have sown. Historically VS has been financially raped by the hierachy. How else do you explain the ridiculous lease costs of the Alitalia -400s which were bought, then sold to a third party then leased back at high profit to individuals without much idea where they were going to fly them. The powerpoint presentation made up by the pilot council a few years back was very enlightening to where all the cash was going! :oh:

[vs_lhr]

The management cock-up imho is not from this pay talk, it is the years of not redressing the balance of wages. They are now reaping what they have sown. Historically VS has been financially raped by the hierachy.

I can't disagree with that ;)

But the union has been less than hopeless during this dispute in letting it get this far because they didn't know what they were asking for, and recommending offers without realising the temperature of the people the supposedly represent.

[Right Way Up]

But the union has been less than hopeless during this dispute in letting it get this far because they didn't know what they were asking for, and recommending offers without realising the temperature of the people the supposedly represent.
I do not know the ins & outs of the union participation but I agree that is the impression being given.

I am going to bow out now as its not my fight. I would like to wish all the great guys & gals in all departments at Virgin good luck. IMO the people are the strength of the company. I hope that VS can get back to where it should be, although I fear it won't be with the present board!

[scoobydooo]

vs lhr whole heartedly agree with your post above, a new leader needed to be put in charge of the cc talks and one with a finger on the pulse (where do I sign:)) - do you think the other side of the table requires a change too ?

p.s. even though I agree with you I am still dubious of your new arrival here ;)

[vs_lhr]

p.s. even though I agree with you I am still dubious of your new arrival here
Perfectly ok to be suspicious. It's only recently that I felt I had something to say - normally I'm more of a passive participant. ;)

[Grease 7]

Also, for instance a crew member who communtes and has been rostered a JFK 3 on the proposed strike day will probably be better of financially aupporting the strike than .... paying for a commuter ticket, overnight accomodation for perhaps 2 nights and only recieving $144 in allowances plus a days money!!!!
This is what I don't understand. I hear these complaints time and time again. I have worked at various airports all over the world and I have always lived near the airports. Even if that has meant renting out my property while I was away. This is simply because I could never afford to pay for an air/rail/bus ticket to work each day or pay for accommodation locally on top of living expenses elsewhere. The cost of getting to work is a personal cost that has to be met by everyone who works, where you live and the level of those costs is down to personal choice it is not something that can be introduced into a disagreement about terms and conditions. If it costs you more to get to work than you get paid that is not the employers problem.

[scoobydooo]

If it costs you more to get to work than you get paid that is not the employers problem.

If employer offered London weighting then the commute to work would not be as expensive, so london weighting could be an argument of T&C e.g. crew who are Manchester based should they be on same Basic as crew who are London Based ? It's just another for the melting pot.

Not a pop at Manchester crew just an alternate view point for Grease 7

[warkman]

warkman - the strike will be for 3 days not 2 weeks.


Where has the 3 days come from? Iv'e not heard that timescale before?

[warkman]

Edited to add - Walkman do you actually work for Virgin ? Just wondered as it would appear from searching all of your posting you spend a lot of time on PPRuNe having lots to say about lots of discussions ? I did chuckle at this quote of yours

No, ex RAF, fly a hell of a lot for my job (SLF) and have a Gold Card with VSFC along with other FF cards.

[warkman]

Or be looking for a fair deal ! When you buy a lottery ticket are you down with misery because you have lost £1 or are you focused on the end result ?

Walkman - you keep going on about the % of the crew and the non votes. It really doesn't matter if in the next round 50% of people dont return the votes and of the remaining 50% 30% votes Yes and the remainder vote no that 30% of the 3200 is enough to carry a 60-40% in favour of action. So... clearly 30% is strong enough. The numbers do not mater - it is a "snapshot" of the crew. You can argue till you are blue in the face about the actual number of votes but it makes no difference.


You are missing the pojnt regarding the people who did not post back the ballots, they did not care about the pay deal but will care about a strike costing them money.

Its the pro strikers who have banged on about 60% voting no, its not 60% of the union, but 41% of the Union, that is a big difference.
Its not a snapshot as the anti pay deal pro strike came out and voted wheras the rest did not. that won't happen in a strike vote. If you think you can carry a strike vote, I have a bridge to sell you.

As for the lottery analagy, they will be focused when they cannot pay their bills due to strike action.

Not that I think it;s relevant but you will find there are strict criteria as to who goes first, not selective criteria - that's illegal.

Actuallky due to the latest anti age discrimination law, the criteria has changed from "last in first out" to a criteria based upon the persons abilities. Going out on strike is not a positive ability.

[scoobydooo]

Walkman,

we haven't banged on about any 60% - I have just shown you the maths the contradict your statement that 30% of crew prepared to strike could not call a strike - lets leave it at that and see what happens.

As for Last in First out/Date of Joining (LIFO/DOJ) being illegal due to age discrimination. This is not the case in the airline sector (may be elsewhere) several airlines of late, MY Travel, Thomas Cook, Thomsonfly, First Choice have all taken legal advise with their recent mergers and been advised by legal council that LIFO is fully legal within the airline community and the least likely of all the other options to fail a successful legal challenge with regards to redundancies. (This I know because I have friends who work in all those airlines)

Its not a snapshot as the anti pay deal pro strike came out and voted whereas the rest did not

Do you really think that those that wanted a Yes just didn't vote then ? Are you serious ? It is a clear snapshot of the crew. but its pointless arguing lets agree to disagree on this one and see what the ballot comes back as.

Thanks for answering with regards to your links to virgin, I did interpret your posts as those of a passenger who will be upset if your schedule is disrupted by industrial action - I respect that but please let the crew get on with our negotiations for our pay to pay our mortgages. As you say the ability not to pay mortgages and bills does focus the crew - that's why many have voted no so far... because they are in that situation already.

Eeit to add - The reason we are in the situation already is because the cost of living has been rapidly rising and salaries have not in line with that, thus hopefully preventing the argument of ..you knew what you would earn when you joined 10 years ago ! Not everyone has a good man/woman/mum/dad to support their income.

[Grease 7]

If employer offered London weighting then the commute to work would not be as expensive, so london weighting could be an argument of T&C e.g. crew who are Manchester based should they be on same Basic as crew who are London Based ?

I give up! - Did you know when you took the job that London weighting was not offered?

Here is an alternate view point for you:

If I worked the hours that you do my total salary would, without question, be less than yours. That is with over 20 years experience and an EASA Engineer's licence.

You could quite easily be working in a job you hate 9-5 Monday to Friday for quite a lot less money than you earn. There are millions that do. Just look at what you do have and remember that before you vote for a strike and potentially lose either yourself or others their jobs.

[scoobydooo]

Grease 7

Here is an alternate view point for you:

If I worked the hours that you do my total salary would, without question, be less than yours. That is with over 20 years experience and an EASA Engineer's licence.

My alternate response to your alternate perspective ;)

So get in a union and get what you deserve - be proactive,DO something about it. If however you are not prepared to make your working life and conditions better stop gving crew who are prepared to fight in what they believe a hard time

also as per edit above, the issue of such things as weightings have become more apparent when you look at how the cost of living in the south has drastically increased over recent years without our salaries moving in line (yours too).

Coor blimey I'm tired now, I cant keep replying :bored: must have sleeeeep.:sad:

[Grease 7]

You have missed my point.

Far from giving the crew a hard time I am simply pointing out a universally recognised fact.

I cannot live the lifestyle I want to live on that money. To expect any company to raise my wages so I can afford to work half the hours is wholly unrealistic so rather than join a union an fight for it I CHOOSE to work my 2080 hours per year which makes my salary up to a level that I feel I can live comfortably on. Perfectly reasonable in my opinion.

[vs_lhr]

So get in a union and get what you deserve - be proactive,DO something about it. If however you are not prepared to make your working life and conditions better stop gving crew who are prepared to fight in what they believe a hard time

That's a good idea. Unionise the whole company, and cripple it completely. Don't suppose you remember the 70s and early 80s, do you? Remember the miners strike? The deep divisions it caused. What did that achieve?

This whole thing is a mess, and 50% of the fault has to lie with the union itself who have been inept at every stage, right up to the inflammatory press statement on Friday.

[Raffles]

"How many time do I have to say this? The hourly rates for CC are not that different to Technicians. And Technicians are pretty well paid compared to other ground staff. That means that your rates are well up there and certainly above a lot of ground and office staff." Sorry my old friend G7, but that's not really a fair comment as a technician (cabin) is paid a higher basic wage than the crew manager!!!

[vs_lhr]

Do you want to know the proposed date too?

Yes please.

[Wee Jock McPlop]

Ladies/Gents,

Firstly, I've flown Virgin a number of times and must commend the CC for what is, in my opinion, a first class service - even to those of us in the cheap seats! But I am concerned that many of you advocating strike action seem to completely ignore the impact your actions will have on the SLF and possibly the future of your airline as a whole.

My family and I are booked with you guys for what will be our first proper family holiday in years - it's been a busy few years. Now I'm not looking for a sympathy vote (far from it), but if your strike action results in my family losing our holiday, which I've paid a great deal of money for, I will be less than pleased. The same feelings will no doubt apply to the many other SLF who fly with you.

The bottom line is that the SLF are lucky enough still to have a choice of who we fly with, wherever it is in the world we wish to go. There are plenty of airlines out there looking for our business. If my holiday is lost, then I will exercise that choice and not give Virgin my business in the future. No matter how good you may appear to be, your strike action (if it goes ahead) will impact greatly on the lives of many - not just you guys. In such a competative market place, is strike action really the best way of going about things? I'm not being provocative. Just letting you see another point of view.

WJMcP

[sign-it-to-your-room]

And thats just one pax and their family. Can you imagine how many more we are isolating even at this stage without the ballot papers even going out?
I'm seriously worried :sad:

[Jcdcon]

Am I being silly?? What is SLF???

[Minnie38]

As a close relative of cabin crew I can see where you are all coming from, my sister does a fantastic job and is poorly paid (I'm not going to go into the rights and wrongs), she voted no originally (so she tells me) but she doesn't know what to do now (again, so she tells me).

Well, unfortunately the damage is already starting since the press publicised the potential strike.

I work for a large company who fly frequently to the States, all our staff fly in Upper Class.

As soon as the cat was out of the bag so to speak, we've been issued a directive to use other carriers (namely BA). I'm not talking a few passengers here, I'm talking a significant number.

You can imagine what similar businesses are going to be doing as well, not to mention the holiday members like WJMcP above.

I've also got a flight coming up shortly (personal, paid for out of my own pocket) - will I be gutted if my holiday is ruined, yes, will I fly Virgin again,
to be honest probably not for a while at least, because from a passenger point of view, once there's strike action you know it can happen again and you don't want another holiday ruined.

I know you guys deserve more but please think very carefully what you're going to do, not just strike because you're so p'd off with Virgin and it's management. An airline only makes money from it's passengers, if those passengers fly elsewhere and you end up with empty planes, what is going to happen - pretty simple really.

I will always back you guys as I really do know how hard you work and everything that's involved but I don't honestly think striking is the best way of going about it. Sorry.

[av8rboyz]

wee Jock


wee Jock

I am not A virgin crew member, however i am cabin crew with many years service.

Do you have any idea how hard it is for Virgin crew????
The money they are on is shocking to say the least! And they work very hard for it! Not only that but why should they not fight for the same rights as other airline staff enjoy i.e. london weighting or better pay scales??? They have to be one of the lowest paid crew in the UK!

Im sure that if you were unhappy with the conditions you worked under or the amount of money you earn then you would say something to your employer!
I see that passengers enjoy the service that these under paid, over worked and under appreciated crew provide.

Just remember that for their duty hours they are probably on or under Min hourly wage!

Get a grip! If your plans are disrupted i would feel for you, but they aint doing it for the good of their health!!
Show some sympathy and compassion for the crew!!

[warkman]

Warkman - if you don't beleive me about how long the strike will be then why not ring Unite the Union like I did and ask yourself!
Do you want to know the proposed date too?

Hang on a min!
Where did I say I did not believe you??
All I posted was I had not heard that before. :sad:

Proposed date? yes please, that would be useful :)

[regularpassenger]

Firstly, as you can tell by my screenname I am SLF so I'm declaring my interest straight off.

All I have is a question for the CC. Alot has been made of the different package Virgin provide you with as opposed to what you may get at say BA. My understanding from reading this and other forums is that you get better "perks" in your contract than BA staff like travel etc - is this correct? If so would you be willing to sacrifice these to be on a similar package as BA CC?

BTW I fly VS quite a bit these days, and you guys rock!

Cheers,

Regularpassenger

[Wee Jock McPlop]

av8rboyz,

Let's not descend into a slanging match and I do not need to get a grip. I was mearly offering another point of view. I fully appreciate the work CC do and understand the conditions they work in. Indeed, my first sentence was a compliment to the Virgin guys/girls for the excellent service they provide.

My point is that if you provide a service and you hurt the very people that use that service, they will in all likelyhood exercise their right to choose. If you go out for a meal and get a crap service, are you going to go back to that eatery? Unlikely. The same applies here. Do you really think that I'm going to back a company that ruins a holiday that I've worked long and hard and paid a lot of money for? I'm sorry for the cabin crew, but my sympathy stops as soon as it effects my plans. You pay for a service and you expect to get one. Sorry, but only the naive would expect me and the other SLF to understand. That's the other point of view that I was talking about.

WJMcP

[sign-it-to-your-room]

Firstly SLF = Self Loading Freight

regularpassenger: In short NO, the majority of CC would not be willing to sacrifice their perks. Happy to compare themselves to BA, but not able to actually comprehend what life is like without requested weekends off and free flights.

FAO av8rboyz
"I see that passengers enjoy the service that these under paid, over worked and under appreciated crew provide."
Are you for real?
We're not bloody Victorian chimney sweeps. We work a max of 900 hrs a year. My family travel free across the world, mainly in Upper. I have a great pension and excellent health cover. I've lost count of the parties that I have attended all paid for by the company, but thats probably because I'm too busy sipping cocktails from my 4* hotel in Barbados!Oh yes, and I take home approx £1600 pm plus flight allowances which can be anything up to £600 if I save them. Under appreciated? Everyone gets a review on them on every flight plus a detailed report on them every 3 months, not to mention a letter the moment something other that the norm occurs on board, thats not under appreciated, Management are not here to blow our noses and wipe our bums!

Wee Jock is 100% correct in his/her posting. Why should the very people who keep us in a job give a rats arse about how poor we are? Not their problem. So VAA are not currently in line with other airlines, trust me we soon will be, but not if we strike.

[back2front]

I would definately give up staff travel perks in order to get paid similiar to BA.

BA crew are paid approx £10k more than Virgin crew. The basic pay is about the same but BA crew also get paid for long range flights, overtime etc. Virgin get paid either nothing or a very small amount £10 for example if a flight is delayed over a certain amount of time. Meal allowances are also much better than at Virgin. All these add up to the £10k extra I mentioned.

Staff travel at VS is good. We get 7 free flights a year + tax. After 3 years these are upgradeable. A very nice perk but don't forget they are on a standby basis so you can't often get on flights. Because our pay is so poor its also difficult to pay for hotels etc when you are away on holidays.

BA (and most airlines) get 90% discount on flights + tax, again on standby. So for example a flight LHR-JFK with VS would cost crew about £80 in tax. BA crew would pay about £150 including tax.

So yes I would be more than happy to give up my staff travel benefits in order to get paid £10k more.

Don't forget that staff travel doesn't cost airlines that much anyway because as staff you only get on if the seat hasn't been sold.

[vs_lhr]

I would definately give up staff travel perks in order to get paid similiar to BA.
If you want the same pay & benefits as BA, then go work for BA. If you want to work for Virgin, they clearly laid their stall out when you applied. Don't ruin peoples lives in your campaign to make VS something it is not.

[regularpassenger]

Thanks Back2Front for clearing that up for me.

For what its worth this SLF supports your claim for more equal earnings with your colleagues in other Long Haul airlines.

I'm sure there is still some room for movement on both sides, and hopefully this can be explored over the coming weeks. I hope (obviously as SLF) there isn't a strike as it will inconvience me and beause I generally choose VS over BA cause historically speaking you don't strike! If things get that far, there will not be any winners, I think thats a given.

I wonder if VS have backed themselves into a corner with the deficit being so huge to other airlines over the years. Perhaps they should consider a reasonable rise per year (i.e. the 4.8% already offered for this year) but make this a longer term commitment over say 3-4 years to get where they need to be along side the competition. I don't know if thats something CC would consider (I know there are also alot of other issues in this as well as simple pay)

[Litebulbs]

VS LHR - wot's that, well paid?!

[vs_lhr]

VS LHR - wot's that, well paid?!

You knew what you were signing up for when you joined. You'll make more money working in a shoe shop - but you want to be cabin crew, and what's more you want to be Virgin cabin crew, so you have to look at what they're offering and decide whether that's acceptable for you. Rather than drag the whole company down, either put up with it or move on.

[bar none]

All these people who post on this forum berating the cabin crew for threatening to strike should think about the cause of a strike in the first place.
If the management halved the cabin crews salaries, and there was a strike threat, who would be to blame? I dont think people would blame the cabin crew so why are they blaming them now, when the cabin crew see their salaries as being way out of line with other long haul airlines.
Strike threats are caused by management as well as staff.

[Litebulbs]

VS LHR - Here is the dilemma then. If you don't like it then leave. You have given a percentage of your working life to VS, to help VS maintain its reputation as a great carrier. Every now and then, you could have given that personal touch to a customer, that guarantees repeat business for the next 10 years. That could be worth a fortune to VS.

However, I would get paid more to work in a shoe shop, so pi55 of to that shoe shop, you are not wanted because you want parity with other airlines flying the same routes and that just is not acceptable.

BA can make a profit and pay well; Easy and the Charters pay more and mostly make a profit. So the problem must be the way the company is directed and managed. You would fit in well to that team coz fit in or **** off is a stalwart of British management technique!

[SOTV]

I just have to ask the question: What is the basic pay for a new entry cabin crew with VS? That is when all allowances are included. I'm asking because a good friend of mine is a train manager on Virgin West Coast and she does really need a change.

[back2front]

Approx £15k based on 4 trips per month

[Litebulbs]

Interesting site -

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285

[SOTV]

15k?

I think she will stay on the rails.

[back2front]

She could even apply for a job at the Virgin clubhouse and get paid around £20k. Not be away from home 3-4 days a week. Not miss out on 1 or 2 nights sleep every week. Not have the associated health problems that come with missing so much sleep. Not have the stress of being potentially 'stood down' each time you go to work if you forgot the answer to SEP and AVMED questions. And not have to work in an unhealthy environment for upto 13hrs at a time.

[s3483]

Well said back to front :D

[Jcdcon]

I am not in the Union, so did not vote. Had I been a member I would have voted yes to the deal as I am happy with my salary (waits for the backlash.)

What I am finding very frustrating regarding this topic are complaints about factors which are inherent to the job of ANY long haul cabin crew. Back - nobody complains about being away for a few days a week when you are on a great trip - why do it now here? ALL long haul crew face time away from home, lack of sleep (which is why we have days off after every trip) etc etc. That has not changed since you accepted the role, however long ago, nor will it change should you look at another carrier.

Some of you may feel that you have an issue with pay - thats fine and its your personal opinion and I repsect that. Lets not however get into "poor me" discussions about how hard the job is - its not.

[back2front]

jcdcon - apart from most airlines giving 3 clear days off after an east coast US

[Jcdcon]

Really?? My 2 best friends work for BA and yes they get 3 clear days after a back to back - after a normal trip it is 2, like us.

[back2front]

No they get 3 after an east coast and 3 after a back to back. 2 days off after dubai and India.

Plus those back to backs are worth around £500

[Jcdcon]

uhhmm - no they don't. Unless my 2 friends are liars?? who knew ater all these years eh?

[Jcdcon]

whilst we are on the topic - if I did a back to back ORD/EWR I would be earning not far off £500 in allowances and trip pay too.

But we are always the hard done by relative aren't we Back??? Poor us.

[Grease 7]

Sorry my old friend G7, but that's not really a fair comment as a technician (cabin) is paid a higher basic wage than the crew manager!!!

You are wrong. The Cabin crew work 43% of the hours that a cabin technician works. That means the CC earn a higher basic wage than the technician.

[BY_boy]

Back2front, ANZ only get 2 days off after a 2 night LAX or 2 night HKG, sometimes 3 days off. Now that is tough!

Could some one please please clarify what my interpretations of the following are: The 4.8% is still on the table up until the votes are counted and if there is a no vote then we get the deal and if its a yes vote we lose it?? :confused:

This is really confussing!

[X ONE]

just to throw some petrol on the fire! but how does a cc manager and licenced technicians wages compare?? surely a 3 or 4 year apprenticeship and then 14 exams and up to 2 years experience to gain the actuall licence thus makeing any airline pay the tech more:}

[back2front]

No definately correct those days off. Are you sure your friends aren't LGW based?

I make a back to back ORD/EWR (not that we do them at VS) about £350. BA also get £180 back to back payment on top of their usual flight pay and allowances.

BTW I have worked for different carriers so do know how we compare and VS crew work harder than any other airlines I have worked for.

[sign-it-to-your-room]

FAO Back to Front
For the record. Clubhouse LGW do not earn 20k. They work 4 on 2 off starting at 6am until 1.30pm and are classed as part time! So half all your perks for a clear picture.

Sounds like the job is getting to you with all those complaints, seems like you are struggling to find anything positive to say. Time to move over and let someone else have a turn I say.

[Captb747]

Back2front

She could even apply for a job at the Virgin clubhouse and get paid around £20k. Not be away from home 3-4 days a week. Not miss out on 1 or 2 nights sleep every week. Not have the associated health problems that come with missing so much sleep. Not have the stress of being potentially 'stood down' each time you go to work if you forgot the answer to SEP and AVMED questions. And not have to work in an unhealthy environment for upto 13hrs at a time.

So could you. No one is forcing you to fly, simple as that and you too could work in the clubhouse.........dont think you would get 20k though unless you did overtime............Your arguement in bold above really has no standing......

[alfamatt]

Just to confirm (I have been BA crew on L/H at LHR for quite some years),
Any trip with a 5hr time change or more generates a minimum of 3 days off, eg get home on monday, & get tues/wed/thurs off, back to work on Fri. This goes for anywhere in USA. It also works for India, but only when the time change is 5.5hrs, not when its only 4.5 hrs.(summer vs winter time change)
Places such as the mid-east, Africa only generate 2 days off due to the smaller time change.
Just to confuse things further, any trip which is deemed "long range" (by BA that is) will generate a minimum of 4 days off.
There may be one or two exceptions to this rule, [our old "mid-fleet" used to be able to bid for trips, but some did accrue less days off, iirc] & it may be different at LGW, but if L/H LHR based BA c.crew do eg a JFK n/stop, 3 days off it is.
You VS guys, please keep focussed on your real issues, not what other airlines do. Thats a potential big can of worms. You are professionals, & deserve pay, & T&C to reflect that. What other depts of VS get, & what other airlines pay is irrelevant. They will fight their own corner when the time comes.
Stay on track, don't get caught up in irrelevant side-issues, & go for the best you can get.
Don't believe that VS can't afford it. They won't go bust. The absolute final & best offer hasn't appeared yet. Its just called playing hard-ball-negotiation. There is a deal there somewhere whereby both sides can come out with an acceptable deal, & faces saved.
Your unity (or lack of it ) will be crucial. :ok:

[BY_boy]

The way the Union and company management have handled the paytalks is an absolute disgrace. To think that these people are running Virgin Atlantic really does make me wonder.

SRB didnt even no how serious this was until we were offered the 4.8%, Senior Management had kept it from him.

So what now? If the company will revert the offer back to 2% looks like I will have to vote yes.

OMG I wish I wasnt in this situation :(

[Raffles]

You are wrong. The Cabin crew work 43% of the hours that a cabin technician works. That means the CC earn a higher basic wage than the technician.

I assume thats based on the 900 flying hours & not total working hours (check-in to check-in). The cabin tech would also be getting shift allowance for working shift on top of the basic, so add's insult to injury for those poorly paid FSM's!!!!

One thing that rings true from all the posts on all the forums, VS has turned into the establishment it set out to beat. Big corporate buildings, loads of managers & Leslie Philips telling you how good looking you are!! The chaps i know from the "old days" say that things worked better when they did it all from a warehouse at Lowfield Heath (and a lot cheaper).

[shortm]

I don't think that the 4.8% pay increase is the sticking point in this pay deal. Most of the crew I have spoken to who have rejected the offer have done so because of the huge difference in the increase in trip pay between FSMs and Cabin Crew - 30% for FSMs and 9% (equating to roughly £2) for cabin crew. That is insulting.

As for saying that if we vote no to strike action we get nothing - that is not correct. I wanted this information clarifying and so emailed one of the senior management team and received this reply

"If the ballot for strike action returns a No vote then we will honour the last offer ( 4.8% and inflation in Year 2) If however a strike ballot gets a yes vote then we will have to withdraw that offer and reconsider what - if anything - can be afforded."

That makes it completely clear that if we do not vote for strike action we will still get the 4.8% as currently offered.

[In The Pink]

We should not be made to feel guilty by other departments about wanting a moderate pay increase. We'll still be far below other comparative airlines

All this talk of cabin crew screwing the airline if there is a strike is so unfair. BA are making good profits, increasing profits this year as well as investing hundreds of millions in T5, ordering new aircraft and paying their cabin crew an acceptable salary.

How are they making money? They operate from the same aiports, pay the same for fuel, have a shorthaul network that competes with LoCo's and are as effected by the same open skies and environmental issues as we are.

Its like Nero fiddling while Rome burns with our management. Their content to sit back with this "but we're Virgin" smugness while airlines all around us are passing us by. We used to innovate, push the boundaries, make an impact but in ever decreasing circles these days.

They have no regard for us at all imo. They have tried to split us with different pay offers and once the FSM's are onside lets get them to do our bidding seems to be the tactic.

One thing for certain we're amongst the lowest paid group of workers in the airline and management cant throw the financial wellbeing of the airline into my lap because most of us do our bit. THEY are not doing there jobs terribly well WHY should we be asked to sacrifice because of it!

Virgin needs to grow up. We're not a small airline partying for a week in Miami anymore. Treat your staff like adults!!

[Grease 7]

I assume thats based on the 900 flying hours & not total working hours (check-in to check-in). The cabin tech would also be getting shift allowance for working shift on top of the basic, so add's insult to injury for those poorly paid FSM's!!!!

Ok add 300 hours to the 900. Even working it on 1200 hours you would need to be licenced to earn more as a technician. And that includes shift pay. Whichever way you paint it the money is almost the same. You seem to know how much both Cabin Crew and Tech's earn and this is getting boring so get a calculator out and work it out for yourself.

I am not trying to make anyone feel guilty for wanting a moderate pay increase. I am only pointing out that perhaps things are not quite as they initially appear. When you compare rates with other skilled staff they are reasonably similar.

[Raffles]

Keep your hair on old chap, your the one that made the comparison:ugh:

One point, many of those fair maidens (and chaps) have said that it isn't really all about money & for many it would have been a big tick in the yes box IF the extra month of standby had been excluded from the final offer:confused:

[jnr light blub tech]

why do you keep refering to a technician as a cabin tech, when it comes to pay. An a/c, cabin and avionics technician are all payed the same under the great tier system.
so what you are saying is that, an a/c tech who works in any weather at any time to keep you lot in the air flying who has done a 5 year apprenticeship and at least 2 year exp before virgin would even talk to them and then add another 2 years to get an 'a' licence, so we are talking 9 years to get a half decent wage!!!
what did we get this year 2% and now the threat of losing our jobs as well.
do we care about cabin crew with their 6 weeks training, and how they moan about where going and 'im never flying there again' attitude.

if you dont like it leave and go and work for BA or Easy jet and work for a living and let us keep our jobs !!!!!!!:=

[sign-it-to-your-room]

"If the ballot for strike action returns a No vote then we will honour the last offer ( 4.8% and inflation in Year 2) If however a strike ballot gets a yes vote then we will have to withdraw that offer and reconsider what - if anything - can be afforded."

That makes it completely clear that if we do not vote for strike action we will still get the 4.8% as currently offered.

Thanks for clearing that up shortm.
Good to read something that I didnt know and certainly makes me relax a little.

[r.s]

Hi guys. What with the next exchange being advertised around check in, I was hoping some of you who've been on this previously could tell me all about it. A bit vague I know, but anything you think may be of use.

I'm really thinking about applying but so far nobody I've flown with in the last two months have been so I'm looking here now.

Thanks :)

[orangelitebulbtech]

why do you keep refering to a technician as a cabin tech, when it comes to pay. An a/c, cabin and avionics technician are all payed the same under the great tier system.
so what you are saying is that, an a/c tech who works in any weather at any time to keep you lot in the air flying who has done a 5 year apprenticeship and at least 2 year exp before virgin would even talk to them and then add another 2 years to get an 'a' licence, so we are talking 9 years to get a half decent wage!!!
what did we get this year 2% and now the threat of losing our jobs as well.
do we care about cabin crew with their 6 weeks training, and how they moan about where going and 'im never flying there again' attitude.

if you dont like it leave and go and work for BA or Easy jet and work for a living and let us keep our jobs !!!!!!!:=


Well said! The problem is that Virgin cabin crew honestly believe that they are in some way 'superior' to other employees of Virgin and cabin crew of other airlines....... From day one they seem to pick up this belief.

As an ex employee of Virgin and someone who has completed a four year apprenticeship, many years of 'on the job training' many more years of studying to gain a CAA Licence...... i find the attitude of these people amazing!...... they are never happy:{

They have a job where they get to travel all over the world, see many different wonderful locations...... and on most flights work less than twelve hours..... and get paid for it!:D

I have a job that involves working in all conditions, long twelve hour shifts and often pages of paperwork to complete to certify the aircraft fit to fly.......... can you imagine that sort of responsibility?:ugh:

Virgin Cabin Crew....... you dont know when you are well off!

Oh and incidentally...... after nearly 10 years i decided i didnt like the drive to Heathrow and what i was being paid, so i left Virgin and now work for another airline that at the moment pays a bit more....... its that simple really!

[shortm]

That comment really annoys me. I'm Virgin cabin crew, I have also worked short haul & charter and worked within a different role at Virgin, and I in no way think I am superior to anyone - be they at Virgin or Easyjet, in any position.

If I understand what is being said correctly, and I might not have, then the comment is being made that based on an hourly rate a technician and cabin crew earn the same money. The difference that as I see it is that a technician is able to do overtime etc to make up their money if they wish to, they are also not penalised by losing out on money when they are off sick or on leave, that would be leave that they also appear to have little control over when it is taken looking at the recent allocations for those of us based at MAN. A technician is paid their shift allowance constantly not only for the days when they are actually in work.

Yes, it is fair to say that we don't work particularly that many hours. However, as I have recently found out, it is difficult to take on a second job when there is every likelihood that your whole roster will end up changing just because of being called on one block of standby.

For me, what irked me most about the pay deal, wasn't the amount which we were / are being offered on basic pay, it was the way the company fiddled with the figures with each revised offer to make us think it was something better when effectively it was the same.

Please do not make comments saying "ALL Virgin crew" when you simply do not know what all cabin crew think.

[virgin dolly]

Virgin has left a deal on the table of 4.8% .So what do we do..?

60% have said NO to this latest pay offer..! Which is very high..

So do we say NO to a strike and accept the pay offer of 4.8% which 60% said NO to.

Or

Do we say YES to a strike and hope that a new offer comes on the table at the last moment....? and if not show the world that our rates of pay are not as good as they should be.

I think we should have more advise from the union on this one and as 60% said NO to the last pay deal I believe the only way forward is for the union to advise us to go on strike.
If we accept the 4.8% which so many of you are not happy with (60%) we will be stepping back but a step forward would mean Strike.
Everybody did think that the 4.8% deal would be pulled if the vote went against but the deal is still there. So if we go on strike what deal will be there...? more or less..? A very testing time for us all I think..!

Regards

Virgin Dolly :ok:

[TopBunk]

It's all very well for Alfamatt to say what he/she does about what to do from a BA perspective.

As a BA pilot I have no axe to grind in your dispute with your company; but what I can do is offer a few observations:

1. If you think you are in an awkward situation now, just wait for the propaganda and personal pressure to be applied to you and your families by the company in the next few weeks. The full might of the corporate machine will be brought to bear and it will be VERY uncomfortable

2. You will be made to feel that there is a real possibility of their being no job to return to.

3. The company will aim to fragment support

4. The company can outlast the majority of individuals who have rents/mortgages/credit cards to service. The city corporations will support the managment as they will have been briefed to the long term cost benefits.

5. BALPA usually recommends having 2 or 3 months salary available as cash on hand to fund any dispute - do you have that?

6. If you strike and lose a weeks salary, or maybe two. If you then achieve say 6% vs 4.8%, how long will it take to regain the lost money? Quite a while, especially when you take into consideration possible interest payments etc.

Now, at the end of the day, I support any legal action, but you have to go in appreciating the possible consequences and understanding them and the financial gains/losses that may result BEFORE you make that decision.

One thing Alfamatt says that I agree with is about unity baing crucial.

Even then, ask Alfamatt what BASSA achieved at BA with a 96% strike mandate earlier this year - and don't be mislead by the BASSA spin - they were destroyed almost to the point of extinction by BA. This is exactly what BA wanted - a weakened BASSA (rather than a total vacuum which a bancrupt BASSA/T&G would have meant) which will enable the company agenda to progress in the coming years.

What mandate do you have? 41% said reject, 30?% for strike?

IMHO, you won't win anything with that level of commitment....

[sign-it-to-your-room]

Well said top bunk :D

Figures like that are damaging but not a threat.

[orangelitebulbtech]

:rolleyes:
That comment really annoys me. I'm Virgin cabin crew, I have also worked short haul & charter and worked within a different role at Virgin, and I in no way think I am superior to anyone - be they at Virgin or Easyjet, in any position.

If I understand what is being said correctly, and I might not have, then the comment is being made that based on an hourly rate a technician and cabin crew earn the same money. The difference that as I see it is that a technician is able to do overtime etc to make up their money if they wish to, they are also not penalised by losing out on money when they are off sick or on leave, that would be leave that they also appear to have little control over when it is taken looking at the recent allocations for those of us based at MAN. A technician is paid their shift allowance constantly not only for the days when they are actually in work.

Yes, it is fair to say that we don't work particularly that many hours. However, as I have recently found out, it is difficult to take on a second job when there is every likelihood that your whole roster will end up changing just because of being called on one block of standby.

For me, what irked me most about the pay deal, wasn't the amount which we were / are being offered on basic pay, it was the way the company fiddled with the figures with each revised offer to make us think it was something better when effectively it was the same.

Please do not make comments saying "ALL Virgin crew" when you simply do not know what all cabin crew think.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif



1. Ok....... some interesting points......

In my experience the 'superior' tag applies to 90% of virgin cabin crew i met over a 10 year period.

2. In relation to the terms and conditions of your employment......

I assume you did read the job contract before accepting????:ugh:

[virgin dolly]

Enough is Enough........Stop It..!

The last few post are out of order and you are all behaving like a bunch of school boys.

Every employee in their departments has a chance to join a UNION.....it's E.U law.

Cabin Crew over the years have tried to join a union as we felt we needed representation because management would chop and change things around to suit them. After all these years we are finally in and have feedom to speak.

So other departments stay out of this it's our chance, our voice and vote..!
One day you might be in our postion.....! and yes you will have my support if your not being paid fairly.

Across the board are we as "cabin crew" in line with other long haul airlines being paid a good wage..? NO

Virgin Atlantic is one of the top named companies around the world so why does it pay it's crew on the budget side.


Forget allowances down route these don't and should not enter the figures, it's our time.
Only basic pay and flight pay should be calculated and for a junior crew member I find this very poor.
We as crew must support and look after each other or there will be a divide in ranks. We have to work together on this one like we do so well on board.


Regards

Virgin Dolly :ok:

[orangelitebulbtech]

Virgin Dolly.....

I quite agree its your or anyone elses right to join a union and strike.

But just dont expect the full support of everyone within the company.

If you are all as underpaid as you claim then i dont see how you ever hope to acheive the increases you feel you deserve. Going out on strike is going to cost you individually which will hurt when it comes to paying the mortgage at the end of the month

Personally i dont see the problem, if you are as poorly paid as claimed then surely you simply vote with your feet and get one of these higher paid jobs at BA or elsewhere?

I'm not trying to be difficult but it seems simple to me?:ugh:

[sign-it-to-your-room]

orangelightbulbtech

But lots of crew dont want to leave; they have spent years working their way up and to leave would be like starting all over again.

I cant speak for Jnrs and Snrs as I havent been on for a long time. But the cost of living has increased somewhat over the last 15 years but my salary has not kept in line with this, not to mention my experience and expertise.

I'm actually a yes voter (just) and dead set against striking to the point that I will offer my services for free if we go to strike. Going back to your previous post, does that smack of a superiour selfish person?

You will notice that from these boards about 50% are yes and the other half a no, nowhere near your 90%!!!!!!!!

I was a no voter all the way through as I found the offers insulting. Then with the last one I looked at the bigger picture and went for a yes.....just.

VAA management know that they have a problem here, its has already snowballed to this and I believe that they will address this. When it is addressed it will interesting to see how other dept react to their own salaries. Will the ground staff engineers raech for a union themselves?

This has not been handled well at all, and has been a learning curve for all involved. No doubt in the future things will run smoother, but I guess you have to make mistakes in the early days.

[orangelitebulbtech]

Sign it to your room....

Well good luck, i wouldnt underestimate the management or Virgin as a brand.

After all it seems they have already succeeded in recruiting cabin crew on 50% less pay than their competitors

[Litebulbs]

If you vote to regret strike action, then throw away your union cards, de recognise Unite and save yourselves £10 a month. As a voice, you will have lost.
The union struggle is a struggle. It is not about who is representing you, it it about the union of workers. If you honestly asked every crew member if they thought their pay was excellent, very good, good, average, poor or very poor, where do you think they would put it on the scale?
With a £2 billion turnover, Virgin must be doing something right. Do the maths on that figure. How many people do Virgin ship round the world each year? Don't pull crew off flights to finance the pay deal. Make the customers pay for it. Put £5 on the cost of each ticket. Pay deal financed. That amount of money would not stop customers buying the product, because it is a great product and worth £5/head increase in cost, to get the crew back onside.
Then engineering and other ground staff do the same. Thats a whole £15 per pax.
Now I await all you business experts to coach me on how this just would not work!

[virgin dolly]

We do not expect any support from any department and it's very difficult that we all work under one roof.

It's a real shame that this situation has got out of hand and feel it's only the management that have themselves to blame.

Why should I leave the company after all the years I have put in. !Anyway we have got 4.8% and other departments 2% so is that fair...? Also why has the company given us so much..? ....is the company agreeing that there is a problem with our wages by giving us 4.8%.

I'm sure there is a light at the end of the tunnel....it may not be orange but it may be bright.

I'm sure everything will be ok in the end anyway pay talks start with the pilots soon, so may be you to should join a union.

Dolly :p

[orangelitebulbtech]

Dolly,

I left after nearly ten years and it was hard, but unfortunatly unless people leave the company will never get the message.

Anyway, its good to see you youve had a minor victory, lets hope they are as 'generous' with the other departments.

:)

[Penguinpoo]

Virgin Dolly,

I don't think you have got 4.8% as you haven't accepted it. If you do strike, I'm pretty sure that figure will change as the company surely won't be able to afford it anymore

What %age would make you say yes?

[virgin dolly]

Your last few words were "cabin crew on 50% less pay than their competitors"...Well you have shot yourself in the foot....

Yes, the company have succeeded in recruiting all these new crew but look what they have created now....possible strike...! all to save a few bucks $$$.

A big shake up in management is needed and a few heads are on the block, lets see what happens in the next few weeks.

Dolly :ok:

[sign-it-to-your-room]

penguinpoo (do I have to cal you that?lol)

I'm a yes voter. But to answer your question, it seems that crew would accept the 4.8% if other areas were addressed such as delay pay, crew down, trip pay etc. Our basic isnt much different any other airline (except managers), but the other airlines beat us to the bank because of how their salary is made up.
I'm certain that sickness would not be as high either, which is pretty bad on CCs part really, but money does talk.

[orangelitebulbtech]

I would definately give up staff travel perks in order to get paid similiar to BA.

BA crew are paid approx £10k more than Virgin crew. The basic pay is about the same but BA crew also get paid for long range flights, overtime etc. Virgin get paid either nothing or a very small amount £10 for example if a flight is delayed over a certain amount of time. Meal allowances are also much better than at Virgin. All these add up to the £10k extra I mentioned.

Staff travel at VS is good. We get 7 free flights a year + tax. After 3 years these are upgradeable. A very nice perk but don't forget they are on a standby basis so you can't often get on flights. Because our pay is so poor its also difficult to pay for hotels etc when you are away on holidays.

BA (and most airlines) get 90% discount on flights + tax, again on standby. So for example a flight LHR-JFK with VS would cost crew about £80 in tax. BA crew would pay about £150 including tax.

So yes I would be more than happy to give up my staff travel benefits in order to get paid £10k more.

Don't forget that staff travel doesn't cost airlines that much anyway because as staff you only get on if the seat hasn't been sold.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/forums/report.php?p=3680650)

Virgin Dolly...

The 50 % comes from a previous post by someone else on this thread who i assume is virgin cabin crew and probably a colleague of yours...... shown above.

Assuming a virgin new starter is on 10k a year and the person talks about BA earning 10k a year more then using primitive maths i came up with the 50% figure...... and the whole basis of my argument......... and shows that i havent 'shot myself in the foot' as you say?:ugh:

[jnr light blub tech]

:confused: i have an idea :confused:

lets tie all cabin crew into a 5 year deal, pay them 5% and if they leave before that date they pay it all back.. that way they commit to the company...

or give the 'waste of space/base' back, sell what we dont lease and give that to the crew as a payrise.

im only joking !!! but the crew HAVE changed in past 10 years i have been here, there was a time when we all worked for the same company, making 'virgin' the best airline to fly... but that has all gone !!!

BUT what do the crews have to work with, aircraft with old fashion ife, the upper class brand has been stripped right back to a few packs of polo's and a silver pen. with cabins that look old and tired. crew down on every flight. the list goes on and on BUT !!!!!!

i do feel for you all, and i belive if you all stick together you will get something back, but as past posts have said a union is a union and you do not have that, only 50% and that is not enough


but remember, if you want other depts to surport you, don't bring in pay from other depts like cabin tech's
some of us are in this company for life!!!! and what you do will hurt our families too!!!#

good luck
:ok::ok::ok::ok:

[virgin dolly]

Kids now in bed so I'm on a roll.....
Something to think about for the future or is it not so far off..?
I'm in this forum to talk about our pay and how we can try and sort out this mess so here goes,

I think trip pay should go up big time and worked out on how long your trip is.
Seven hour flight £50, New York ( for CC member)
Eight hour £70
Nine hour £80 Miami
Who likes doing a Miami or a Orlando so give the crew incentives.
Make crew work for their money by giving incentives by working these longer flights.
Big Issue. crew down payments up to £50 for one crew member, £100 for two and £150 for three, then the company would have to get the figures right. It's a insult to pay £5 per crew member down.

But keep the basic pay the same......Yes I may get a few posts for saying that. But in my last posts I talked about basic and flight pay being put together as one whole wage.

Also introduce back to backs where you do two New Yorks or a New York/Washington crew would earn £100 + £70 for UK hotel for allowances and given four days off after trip. It would be a six day trip but one less journey to work.
Crew travel a long way these days so again give them a incentive. These back to backs are quick but financially rewarding to the company and the crew. You would see Crew sickness go down to the minimum.

Being paid £10 for a almost 5 hour delay is a insult and should be increased to £50 at least anyway how often does this happen. So a increase wouldn't be that bad but it would be saying thank you for working these extra hours.

I'm I asking for to much or I might be barking mad....think about it..!

This increase would see your basic with your flight pay together increase and crew be given an incentive to come to work and earn a decent wage.
It's a better deal and I think crew might like it..! Better flight pay, an incentive to come to work and together with your basic makes a good wage.

By giving crew 4.8 % on their low basic was a bad move for the company and other departments who only get 2%.,this has already divided the company as a whole.

I think a big change is needed to the whole structure of crews pay and should be look at soon.

Am I dreaming or is this a possible solution.?

Ta, Ta, Dolly :ok:

[sign-it-to-your-room]

Jnr light bulb tech:
Now that was lovely posting :D

You're right, crew have changed.
I'm not about to bleat on about the good old days, but its clearly a generation thing. I'm sure other companies are experiencing the same thing too. Some just dont understand how bloody good they have it...in my day.............no I wont!

[sign-it-to-your-room]

Virgin Dolly.

We need a place where we can put these feelings to the union, but where?

[virginboi]

You know what im really fed up to the back teeth of all this strike action rubbish and ill tell you why.
Today I over heard conversations from your new crew who themselves have only been with the company a few weeks discussing the poss strike action and how they feel they should be given a higher salary.
You can imagine how sadend I was to hear this from new people within our company jumping on the band wagon of a very silly campaign run by some what mis guided people.
I dont mean to sound harsh but come on ladies and gents you knew the salary at the start , you knew the perks and you had the choice of whom to go work for your the role models for the new guys and look what you have turned them into!!
Take the resposibility for your actions and do not make our airline into a BA mark 2 (where staff run the airline by millitant action).
Your risking so much as you know the airline will not survive 7 days of strike action, and your actions will have a direct result on both staff in the air and on the ground by creating possible job cuts.
So while your sipping on your G and T's down route think of the other poor Ba**ards who work within this airline , who are panicing because we do not know if we will have a job in the run up to xmas.
Lets face it if you dont like the job or the comapany or the money isnt enough then GO SOME WHERE ELSE!!!
Our business isnt the best paid but hey we all knew that and I make my money up by using the benefits etc.
Virgin doesnt need silly people just fighting on for fighting's sake listern to your union reps etc belive me they know best.
Leave the negotiating to them and stick to your chicken or beef and let the rest of us sleep well in knowing our jobs will be there in the morning.

A VERY PROUD VAA EMPLOYEE

[virgin dolly]

Many thanks for you reply.....

[Jcdcon]

Virgin Dolly

Have read a few of your posts and they really are beginning to annoy me!!

The real issue here is that we need to look at the bigger picture - the company, regardless of what you believe, will NOT offer another deal. It is not going to happen.

Accept 4.8% or strike and get whatever the want to offer us. Your suggestions are irrelevant at this stage. And they are flawed. Increased trip pay to encourage people to do trips they don't like?? Firstly, it your job to do those trips. Secondly, following your train of thought, then surely those short trips would be poorly crewed due to sickness as you don't earn as much as the longer ones - why do a NYC for £50, when you can do a MIA for £80??

As crew I am really disturbed by how insular we have become - not everything revolves around us. I am also upset at the bickering between depts - what does that achieve?

These post can continue indefinitely - however there really is only one issue to discuss as the Terms of the pay deal will not change - that is, they will not increase.

I think its about time we all started to look at what is on the table and make a decision on that basis. The time for speculative comments about what we want is over, and if you believe that your needs have not been met, then that is an issue to be brought up with the Union, who backed the last offer.

I for the record, am very happy with my current package, and my current T & C's of employment. I am aware that I am in the minority. I would however hope that those who are not, use their voices accordingly. The time to make stances without SERIOUS repercussions for all VAA depts is over. Its too late to say "I want, I want".

The only statement now should be "Yes" or "No" - and that needs to be thought about very carefully.

[virginboi]

Finaly I hear some sense, good advice!!

[orangelitebulbtech]

Virgin Dolly......

Wheres the witty reply to my last post....... or has the effects of the 2nd bottle of wine taken its toll?:D

jcdcon........ well said!

[back2front]

jcdcon - 'I think its about time we all started to look at what is on the table and make a decision on that basis.'

We have looked at the offer on the table and 60% voted no to the deal. Do you really think the union reps will come back and say 'guys we are going to ask you to vote again on the same deal' they would be laughed at by the majority of crew (60% who have said no)

The only thing left now is:

a - the company come back with a better offer that brings us in line with other airlines

b - we vote to go on strike and wait and see if the company comes back with a better offer.

Was talking to some f/d crew last night and they said 'you guys have to hold out for a better deal. We got 49% by voting to strike'

We need to stand up to the company too. If one group of employees can do it (pilots) then so can other employees.

[vs_lhr]

The percentage that voted no was not the majority of the crew, it was the majority of the union members who bothered to vote. It was actually closer to 30% of the crew. There's a big difference between those two numbers.

[X ONE]

Just to get a better picture can any of you gals and boys who are CC tell me what amount of expensess you recive on an avarage month?

VS LHR you hit the nail on the head.. 30% of the crew in voted no deal

How about a %(how much would it take?) payrise on basic pay and scrap expensess??

Performance and loyalty bonus for all?? could improve crew down numbers

[Captb747]

Virgin Dolly,

At this stage I am not going to go thru the why,s and whats of going on strike or not going on strike.....BUT, you said....

Who likes doing a Miami or a Orlando so give the crew incentives.

CC might not like doing MCO,s and MIA,s just like there are aspects of my job I dont like doing but I have to do them with no incentive. I certainly dont think CC should get an incentive to fly to a destination because they dont like it. Its part of the route structure VS have had for a long time so asking for an incentive for a particular route is barking up the wrong tree I feel.....

[boeing boeing.. gone]

I have read the thread for while in utter dismay. I am a long term flyer and supporter of Virgin but I have to admit the last 4 or 5 times I have flown with VAA the service on the trips hasn't been great, at times the CC have been disinterested and have spent much of the trips in the galley talking about parties down route (granted not all CC are like this). Would I pay an extra £15 for my ticket to give CC a raise.... No, if ticket prices go up (and ticket prices end up over that of BA) to fund a deal I would take my business elsewhere, as countless posts have pointed out VAA has competition on all of its routes.

For me its simple if the wages at VAA were that bad people would leave and no-one would want to join, therefore VAA would have to increase pay levels to attract staff. You have all signed up to the wages and the terms and conditions. its simple economics.

You all want to protect seniority, but if this did not exist perhaps it would be easier to leave a company for another to get better wages rather than having to go to the bottom of the list????

When is the strike planned for does anyone know?? I am flying in december on VAA and really would rather change my flight than have my holiday plans suffer???

thanks

[sign-it-to-your-room]

Jcdcon:
"I for the record, am very happy with my current package, and my current T & C's of employment. I am aware that I am in the minority. I would however hope that those who are not, use their voices accordingly. The time to make stances without SERIOUS repercussions for all VAA depts is over. Its too late to say "I want, I want".

No we are not! Thats the only positive thing at the moment. 29% of our entire crew voted to reject this offer, how many do you think will have the courage of their convictions and vote yes to strike? I'd say about half!

It may still win them the vote within the union, but looking at the bigger picture, us Yes (to take the current offer) voters far outweigh them.

Boeing boeing gone:
I dont want to sound like a know-it-all, but I think that you're gonna be okay. You shall go to the ball!

[virginboi]

Belive me guys the company will not back down this has gone as far as it will go.
Just look at what is on the table now dont be silly and expect to blackmail the company into a pay rise it wont work all you will do is hurt our customers and other staff.
Stop being so selfish grow up and get on with it or get out!!

[stansdead]

As an A340 pilot with VS, I urge you all to consider this seriously.

I really do not believe there will be a better offer coming this time around.

You should accept the 4.8%, take the back pay, look forward to RPI next year and decide as a WHOLE GROUP what you want next time round.

Your pay deal is backdated to April. That means that in 12 months time your reps will be negotiating another deal.

Either back your reps by accepting this deal, or show them the door by refusing it. You can't have it both ways.

By the way, how many of you have thought of what happens if you get stuck down route on strike days? I don't know the answer, but I think you may be on your own with no allowances or hotel room.

What ever you all decide, I hope you understand why EXACTLY you are doing it.

[sukigirl]

I try to be a silent reader of this thread and not post to many of my comments, however I am amazed and also cringing at the immaturity of some of our crew.

Comments like incentives for mco, mia for example .... everyone has flights they like dislike for different reasons but we are no longer in high school being bribed by our parents to do our schoolwork. This is the real world of employment, In every job there are tasks that employees probably hate doing. I could go on with many more examples of childish demands of the company but I dont want to start getting into a 'tit for tat' scenario. However I feel that these are the comments that are letting us down and showing the crew in a bad light.

I will say though to posters in this forum from other depts, please do not tar us with the same brush by applying all your personal comments to all of us. comments about the cars we drive, where we drink etc are not helpfull and cause more bad feeling. I can understand why you may feel crew are being selfish and some are, but you could have your depts represented by a union also, and perhaps you should, as clearly and understandably you were unhappy with your latest pay offer. As it has been pointed out many times now only around 30% of crew have voted to reject the offer, There are still a number of us who are happy to accept the latest deal, not to strike and keep everyones jobs secure and not to forget our pax happy.

[sign-it-to-your-room]

This may seem terribly naive, but if only 29% of crew voted NO to the last ballot then that leaves 71% of the company who would say yes. Cant VAA conduct their own ballot or are we strictly unionised now? Seems odd that it is a such a small percentage 'ruling' the game.
What about those of us who choose not to be in a union? Cant we just accept it? lol
Feedback please :}

[jnr light blub tech]

im sorry to say, that after talking to the crew today, they do not have the balls to fight this!!!!

there is no unity, and no belief. you have lost out!!!!

the postman stuck together and won !!!!
cabin crew no chance!!!!

:ugh:

[sign-it-to-your-room]

I knew it! I said it all along!
Daft monkeys some of them (n.b. I said some of them)

I feel frustrated for the rest of us. Please , anyone, give me some feedback on my last post!:confused:

[VIRGIN CSS]

As I have said in previous posts I will be voting No to Strike.

I have spoken to the CAB and to BALPA today and this is what they said to me. I am saying you as 1 person not we as in all us crew.

If you are downroute on a strike day and there is an Aircraft there waiting for you to take it back home and you refuse to work Virgin do not have to give you any extra allowance or provide a hotel room for you as you are refusing to work and as you are not on UK soil are not covered by UK law. It would be unlikley that they would do this as tey would need you to operate the flight once the strike wa sover. However if you did refuse to work a flight for no reason other than sickness then when you return to base Virgin have the right to cease your employment.The only way around this would be for a doctor downroute to say you were unfit to fly.

If you were downroute and there was no Aircraft for you take home then Virgin have a duty of care to consider and have to give you allowance and a hotel room. However if Virgin require you to fly elsewhere to take an Aircraft home then you will have to for e.g fly from BOS to JFK and then take a VS flight back to the UK. Again if you refused Virgin can cease your employment once back at base, Unless again you had a doctor say you were not fit to fly.

As for someone saying that we shoud get incentives to fly the less popular routes keep it real. Imangine if an Engineer said to Virgin they wanted an incentive to come to work on cold and rainy days as it was unpopular to work outside in those conditions. They would get laughed at. Its all part of the job. You just do it. Unless you can swap off it. Yes we can do that at Virgin.

Also some people saying all crew are the same were not all the same. I for 1 am not pushing for a strike. I voted YES to the last offer and will be voting NO to strike. I will like many others be offering my services to Virgin once my vote has been counted and after my union membership has been canx. I will not join the union again as I feel they have done a good job at communicating to virgin what we want. Virgin took it upon themselves to ask us. For that reason Virgin have a tiny bit more of my respect that the union do. I will be going to work on Strike day/s and I will be proving a great service to our customers that have been loyal to us.

Virgin are still our employer and they are still paying my wages they have broke no contract with me. So I will not break my contract with them. If we go on Strike it's not only us that will be affected but our Customers our business and above all the many other Virgin Atlantic staff around the world that help keep the Airline running. Think about how many people a strike will affect.

We are not BA,QF,AI,CX,AA,UA,CO,KL,SQ or any of the other major airlines we are Virgin Atlantic we are no more better that the rest but we are differant and we should all be doing whats best for Virgin Atlantic not just whats best for us. If you don't like the condition or pay at VS then have a look around at other carriers and see what they can offer you that Virgin can't if you liek what you see go there but please remember all the crew that have left and then came back to VS. I know a few.

I am going to cut and paste this as pointe dout in other posts I have 2 differant names. One Virgin CSS and the other Virgin FSM. I have nothing to hide. When I opened one I was a CSS then when I opened the other I was FSM. Simple.

When you get your ballot paper please think about what you are doing and how many people putting a cross next to the YES to strike will do and then look at the other option NO to strike and consider using it. Next time pay talks come up it will be be much better.

If you still vote YES to strike not many flights will be grounded. There are enough people out there to take flights out. Sorry if I offended anyone.
Let the insults begin. I know I will get a few.:ouch:

Take Care and happy flying.

[Kasual Observer]

As a Virgin pilot, I am becoming increasingly concerned at the levels of naivety being displayed here and from chatting generally with the cabin crew when on flights. It is very frustrating to see some of the comments, especially those about "incentives" to work particular routes and also, how we, the pilots, supposedly voted to strike during our negotiations a few years ago.

First of all, we never voted for industrial action. We never even got close to that situation. Anyone mentioning that we did, as some kind of incentive for the cabin crew to vote for industrial action, needs their heads examining and should be treated as the incompetents that they really are.

As a reminder to all the cabin crew who bother to read this and listen to the advice we the pilots are able to offer, we had almost total union membership. The numbers were over 90%. On top of that, we had complete faith in our union reps and they had the total backing of our union with expert advice and assistance during our negotiations with the company. On top of that, we actually showed the company how we could fund our pay increase without hurting the company.

At no stage did the negotiations break down and the membership were never balloted for industrial action. So, any cabin crew member saying that we put the company in a situation whereby they had no choice but to agree to our demands is nothing but an ignorant and naive trouble maker.

In addition to having an overwhelming majority of pilots in the ONE union, we had complete faith in our negotiators, were kept fully informed of developments through our dedicated website and proper communications, AND, when balloted on recommendations, the overwhelming majority of us returned our ballots.

By comparison, you, the cabin crew, are fragmented, have no faith in your negotiators, have almost no idea what is being offered and are, in general, displaying naivety that is cringeworthy. From what I can gather, only about 65% of you are actually in THE union [sic]. Of those 65%, only 69% of them bothered to return their ballots and of those, only 60% agreed to turn down the offer. Basic maths, which appears to be deficient in many of those calling for industrial action, is obviously not a strong point. To assist, I will try and break it down into digestible pieces:

Approx 3,500 cabin crew.
Approx 65% in union = 2,275
69% returned ballot = 1,570
60% of returned ballots voted to reject the offer = 942

So, what is clear is that 942 out of 3,500 cabin crew rejected the offer. It is all very well claiming that 60% rejected the offer but without emphasising that it was only 60% of those that bothered to return their ballots, it is meaningless. Anyway, back to basic maths:

942 out of 3,500 cabin crew = 26.9% have rejected the offer. The other 73.1% have not rejected or accepted the offer.

So, having twice voted against the recommendations by your union reps which for all intents and purposes is a vote of no confidence in them, less than 30% of you have forced the union to ballot for industrial action. It's all very well having your reps then turn around and try to save face by going to the media and claiming that they have majority support for industrial action, which in turn has an immediate impact on the company with passengers changing plans and corporate customers making alternative arrangements, but the damage has been done and the more militant cabin crew members spout on about the fact that even if those that bother to return ballots are in a majority then the rest of the membership have to come out in support.

It is a bit like watching you all walk into a well prepared ambush. You have a slight majority of cabin crew in the union and of those, most don't understand what is involved in the negotiations thanks to overdoses of Big Brother, Hello magazine, Soap Operas and a very flawed education system. On top of that, those that did attempt to take part by returning their ballots, only 60% of them, not exactly an overwhelming majority, rejected the offer without understanding the consequences. To top it all off, you have no faith in your reps but are prepared to have them lead you into possible industrial action. If you can't see the futility in all of that then you probably deserve the consequences you are likely to suffer.

The idea that you need "incentives" to work particular routes should be a total non-starter. You ask us to ignore what you do downroute with your allowances, fair enough, but don't forget that we, the pilots, see how many crew fail to report due to "sickness". Whilst we all agree that no one should come to work if genuinely sick, it is very apparent that there are significant numbers of cabin crew who abuse the system. We all know that trips that infringe the weekend have a much higher number of crew calling in "sick". Whilst it is only a minority, it is a significant minority and gives the company ammunition to use against you when negotiating crew down payments. Anyone with an ounce of intelligence can see how that could be abused should they agree to some of the demands being made for increased crew down payments. I won't go into details here but if you don't follow my reasoning then you really should be doing a bit more homework.

At the end of the day, most of the pilots agree that you should get better remuneration for all the training and work you do. However, we strongly advise you to go about it properly. You need to get rid of your current union and their inept negotiators/reps. Those of you who are passionate about working for Virgin Atlantic Airways and have the intelligence and commitment to do something about it, need to organise the rest of your colleagues and educate them about the benefits of belonging to a proper union that has the ability to properly represent you. Your union needs to have a track record of successful negotiation and the management of that union needs to have the credentials and expertise on board.

Once you have found that union, you need to organise your colleagues into joining that union and then electing your reps. Your reps have to have the intelligence and education necessary to understand what is involved when negotiating with a corporate team and your union has to provide any necessary training for your reps to handle these situations. You also need to have a dedicated website where your reps can keep your membership up to date with DETAILED information on what is on offer and what is being requested.

Once you have that in place and you have persuaded a significant majority of your colleagues to join this union, only then will you be in a position to start negotiating for real improvements to your terms and conditions. Of course, none of this happens overnight and takes dedication and hard work. Also, unless someone is prepared to stick their heads above the parapet and start this organisation, you aren't going to be getting anywhere.

In the meantime, it is fairly obvious that there is no real stomach for industrial action by the overwhelming majority of cabin crew even though your union and reps are harping on about rejecting the current offer and voting for strike action. It is fairly obvious that there will be a rejection of industrial action and the current offer will be accepted. All that will have been achieved is a total waste of time and some damage to revenues for the company due to the feeble threat of industrial action in the first place.

The management of the company have a lot to answer for too. It is sheer incompetence that they let the negotiations get to this stage in the first place. Whilst there is always some give and take during negotiations, many of us pilots feel that the management showed a complete lack of understanding of the dissatisfaction amongst the cabin crew and their initial offers were indeed insulting. The least they could have done after revising the offer to the current one is apologise for not getting it right the first time around. That at least would have gone a long way towards pacifying many of you and accepting the current offer whilst giving yourselves time to regroup and plan your strategies for the next round of negotiations a year or so from now.

The whole situation is a mess. Shoddy management together with naive expectations from some cabin crew and now damage to revenues thanks to the threat of industrial action which will never get that far.

There is an old saying that goes along the lines of "Better to keep quiet and let others think you are a fool rather than open your mouth and remove all doubt." Just think about that before some of you post your thoughts on here and discuss the current situation. If you are going to make claims and comparisons, make sure you do your homework. :rolleyes:

[sign-it-to-your-room]

KO:D

Welcome back Oh Voice of reason!
Good old common sense with no molly coddling.

[orangelitebulbtech]

At last some voices of reason:D

Having come into contact with jnr cabin crew whilst they are on aircraft visits on the ground at LHR i am not really that surprised at the level of naivety shown by some on this thread..... some of the questions asked during these visits are mind boggling:rolleyes:

Perhaps some of these people should also consider the timescale involved in training flight deck and engineers...... it aint six weeks so perhaps the salary's involved may reflect this?.



Anyway i'm off now to work on a list of jobs i dont like doing while at work and some possible incentives the company could offer......

Erm......

1. Dont like working in the rain..... £10 ?

2. I hate working on mondays £20?

3. A wheel change...... oooh .....erm.... £50?


:D

[Grease 7]

Kasual Observer : Extremely well said Sir!!


Oh and could I get £60 and a Lieu Day for a toilet change.............

:)

[sign-it-to-your-room]

Stop taking the piss boys. You promised you wouldnt do it anymore!
Its less than 30% of crew remember?:=

[orangelitebulbtech]

No problem.... stop taking the p*ss...... yes........ it'll cost you........erm shall we say £25?:oh:

[stormin norman]

Stick with your convictions and take him on.

Good luck

[sign-it-to-your-room]

A glimpse into the future...........................

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm6VC5gdaFA

and something to lighten the mood! :)

[Armed&Crosschecked]

Now is a very unsettling time for all concerned at Virgin.
Please think long and hard about the decision to strike... it will affect everyone -

* Passengers will look elsewhere to ensure they are not stranded or lose their flights
* The losses suffered by the company will no doubt result in redundancies from all areas... crew (whether they were involved or not) and ground based staff (who are not involved in the dispute at all).

Virgin is not that big an airline and historically the Aviation industry is an unstable one... (MyTravel merger / GB buyout by Easyjet are 2 current examples)

Cabin Crew should be paid better and recognised more for what they do
This talk of strikes must've made the Management sit up and take notice but a strike will be more detrimental than anyone could imagine and in the short term could make matters worse.

The Cabin crew have shown that they mean business and in the future this mess they are in now could be a great bargaining tool for future pay negotiations but if a stike goes ahead there may not be much of a company left to bargain with....

[scoobydooo]

So I go away for a few days and this like cc.com has become a mud slinging forum for people from other departments telling everyone who is fighting for their rights how bad they are.

Other departments taking a pop at crew and people posting things from allegedly the CAB which is utter tosh (do a search about what V FSM said CAB said last time and see if it came to fruition - nothing but an attempt at scare talk).

Not really interested in getting involved anymore as the debate has become childish banter and a lot of feet stomping - I only echo Stormin Normans post to stick with your convictions if you believe you deserve more (be it financial, conditions, not more standby - everyone has their own goals)


Being labelled etc etc by other departments and passengers for being prepared to strike for "our" conditions is frankly exactly what we expected. If you are not prepared to represent yourselves through a union (pilots excluded) I dont understand why you have so much to say about people who do fight for what they believe in.

Lucky other departments doesn't sit in on CRM , could be all out war !

Yes the last vote has been left on the table (after yet another false threat that it would be removed if the vote came back NO) and ta-da it's still there, the management really hoping and praying that it will get a last chance revival before having to cough up.


KO writes a sensible piece, however my only response would be that we are now working with what little resources we have left in order to achieve our goals as a direct result if inept union management and virgin management.


If that means using the A-Bomb to end it all as Hiroshima did then so be it - it was a drastic measure but achieved the end result. The pilots striking (I know %'s were very different but the weapon of choice was the same, the equivalent of a company A-Bomb and in your case it achieved its goals we are hoping for the same).

How many times have we heard "final offer", I think the answer is "not for the final time".

[orangelitebulbtech]

Scooby...... are you often prone to exagerating situations?

Accept the 4.8 % and just be happy you aint getting the 2% the rest of the company has been offered...... you will never see the day where you get the figures mentioned on this thread:ugh:

Or as said by numerous other people on this thread just leave the company and find a job that pays a wage youre happy with... then the company can recruit one of the thousands waiting for your job as virgin cabin crew to replace you:ugh:

It really is that simple:ok:

[sign-it-to-your-room]

Blimey orangelitebulbtech,
You're head must be really sore by now with all that wall banging :ugh:

[orangelitebulbtech]

Hahahaha yeah i was wondering how often i would have to use it to get a simple point across:rolleyes:

[scoobydooo]

bulbs,

Accepting only 2% when cost of lviing gone up >4% not smart.
Not happy with only 2% in your department - get a union.

Have to give up years of seniority and leave due to my employer reducing my working lifestyle and conditons - not on your nelly now exercising my rights as a union member.

It's that simple :ok: for everything else there's mastercard !

p.s. Have never said am looking for crazy rises, my threads show what I am looking for.

[orangelitebulbtech]

Scooby......

Well i wish you all good luck, I'll watch with interest to see how you all do:ok:

[warkman]

Quotye Scoobydoo: If that means using the A-Bomb to end it all as Hiroshima did then so be it - it was a drastic measure but achieved the end result. The pilots striking (I know %'s were very different but the weapon of choice was the same, the equivalent of a company A-Bomb and in your case it achieved its goals we are hoping for the same).

And there in that sentance we have the crux of the matter.
There is a small minority of Cabin crew who are prepared to destroy Virgin Atlantic so they can get their demands agreed totally.

Stuff the fact it will cause many to lose their jobs, just so when we go to the next airline they can say "We can get all our demands met just like at Virgin, even though they went down"

Just like the miners, just like the Rover workers, the end justifies the death of the industry/company.

[scoobydooo]

Warkman

Every coin has 2 sides, you have focused and drawn reference to every industrial action which has led to company collapse - Though you have not drawn reference to the ones where the unions and employees achieved their goals. e.g. A near strike in Virgin a few years back by non other than our pilots. If you read the trade union news you can see a long list of companies in the last year who have taken industrial action and the result has been the employees have achieved their goals.

There is a small minority of Cabin crew who are prepared to destroy Virgin Atlantic so they can get their demands agreed totally.

I would reword it, " There are a number of cabin crew who appreciate that in order to make any further progress the only course of action left is the threat of industrial action which may carry a risk however the risk to reward ratio is in their favour".

[warkman]

As you say two sides.
Re the companies where the Unions acheived their goals, at what cost? I bet the union paper does not tell you how many jobs were lost after that, or how many of those companies sent further jobs and buisness abroad.
What size were these companies? that can also have an effect. rather like comparing BA to Virgin really.

As for the pilots, I am sure one will be along in a min to explain that they were supported by all the pilots, that all (or was it the majority?) were in the union and that it had taken them years to get to that position, you don't have the support of the majority of unionised crew let alone the whole cabin crew comliment. That is a major difference.

But we will see soon.

What is the date given by the unions for the return of the ballot papers?

[scoobydooo]

I fully appreciate the following and percentages were different with the pilots I only drew reference to them striking as you drew reference to cabin crew being prepared to destroy Virgin Atlantic by threatening to strike. Exactly the same as the pilots did - this was the only similarity I was drawing, in effect the tool of choice is exactly the same (so by your rational the pilots were also prepared to destroy Virgin Atlantic by striking at a time when revenues and turnovers were lower) , but accept underlying conditions different.

As for companies and size, feel free to have a look at each union website site as for company sizes, take BMI for example if we are not allowed to use BA as an example and other companies, it's not all end of the world outcomes.

Dates - dont know not received my union communication yet.

Regards
Scooby

[orangelitebulbtech]

scooby.....

the differences between you and the pilots ive listed below...

1. Pilots take years to train..... and gain enough hours... and as a result are not easy for the company to replace

2. the pilots stuck together



1. Cabin crew........ dont take years to train......

2. Theres a queue a mile long of school leavers who would love to do the job..... so you are readily replaceable

3. From what i can see on here you all have different objectives and are disorganised.....

[scoobydooo]

Bulbs,

points noted, as mentioned in previous post only reason I drew parallel is that both were/are prepared to in warkmans words "destroy the company" in order to achieve to receive equal/similar remuneration/terms in comparison to those in equivalent roles with different employers.

However for one party to do it it was acceptable and for the other it is not. This is what I do not understand - or did the pilots cop as much flak from other departments when they were about to strike, I wasnt a pruner then :}

So those not in favour of striking and whilst I acknowledge the two scenarios are very different you have nothing to worry about then if it is such a minority prepared to strike right ?

[Kasual Observer]

It is becoming increasingly clear that some of you who are advocating industrial action have a very limited understanding of history and its relevance to your argument. The pilots never even came close to a strike. It is fairly obvious that it suits some militants to ignore that fact but in order to address it in isolation, during our negotiations with the company, there were times when we believed we may have to resort to it. However, we never came close and we certainly never rejected our union reps recommendations and we certainly never go to the stage where the cabin crew are at right now.

So, if you are going to keep harping on about how we the pilots, were prepared to bring the company down in order to achieve our demands, then at least get your facts straight. Had we been prepared to go that far? We'll never know. What we do know is that we had over 90% membership in one union and over 90% acceptance of our unions recommendation.

Now, let's compare that to the current cabin crew situation. You have barely 65% union membership and barely 60% bother to return their ballots and only 60% of those rejected the current offer. Your union leaders have not even given the company the mandatory information on their decision about when to ballot for industrial action. Yet here we have a few militants harping on with distortions and suppositions based on flawed information talking about being prepared to bring the company down as though the are sure that they'll have some sort of miraculous overwhelming support from a disinterested, marginal majority of their colleagues.

It is embarrassing to watch some of you use comparisons to the suffering of those who had to endure the hardships of world war II with your analogies of A-bombs and their influences on the outcome of the war. All you have succeeded in doing is convince many more of us who sympathise with your problems regarding pay and conditions, into believing that you are little more than a bunch of no-hopers with grandiose ideas which bear little relevance to the goals your colleagues would like to achieve.

You would be better served if you were to act realistically by accepting what is on offer now and then regrouping in readiness for the next round of negotiations in a little over a year from now. It's all very well harping on about how you are going to use your "A-Bomb" when in fact all you have is a few fire crackers. It would be comical if it weren't so pathetic.

All you and your pitiful excuse for a union leadership have managed to do is create some uncertainty for our customers which will have an adverse effect on the company's bottom line which in turn will mean that you have weakened your position even further for the next time around. When you can approach the company with a very solid majority of members who are able to comprehend what is involved in the negotiations and are prepared to support your reps overwhelmingly, then you can start to wield a bigger stick.

Do us all a favour and stop pretending that you are somehow going to bring the company to its knees with your unrealistic demands. You are about to fail miserably and that damage will set you even further back than if you were to accept the current offer, as per YOUR unions recommendation. All that will happen is that you are going to be in an even weaker position for the next time you have to go into negotiations.

The pilots have never threatened to strike. We never rejected the recommendations of our union. And most importantly, the vast majority of our membership had a very clear understanding of what was on offer and what our options were. Do not compare yourself to the pilots as it is like comparing chalk and cheese when it comes to the examples being bandied about by a few blinkered militants.

[scoobydooo]

It is embarrassing to watch some of you use comparisons to the suffering of those who had to endure the hardships of world war II with your analogies of A-bombs and their influences on the outcome of the war

But the A-Bomb did end world War II, 6 days after Nagasaki Japan surrendered ending the war - I'm not really sure what you mean by that statement. My reference to A bombs is that they are on a par with striking, the last resort.

The pilots never even came close to a strike. I may have my facts incorrect then, I was under the understanding that the union voted in favour of industrial action and this was averted at the last minute with emergency negotiations and the strike was called off ?

The following is fromt he independant 2001, you rejected an offer and the union was preparing an industrial ballot (as they are now in our case) I would say that is a similar position in terms of how close to striking, thoughe once again I stress the differences are noted.



http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/article253740.ece

Sir Richard Branson's Virgin Atlantic airline faces strike action after 95 per cent of its pilots rejected a pay offer.
Sir Richard Branson's Virgin Atlantic airline faces strike action after 95 per cent of its pilots rejected a pay offer.
Sir Richard, anxious to avoid cancellations by passengers seeking to avoid industrial action, intervened personally but failed to persuade flight crew to accept a 5 per cent pay rise.
An internal memo reveals that Virgin tried to ensure that news of the strike threat did not leak out. The confidential letter warned that the business would be damaged and Virgin's image tarnished if passengers "get wind of potential disruption".
Virgin management will make a final attempt to reach a deal on Monday but members of the British Airline Pilots' Association (Balpa) said there would need to be a significant improvement in the pay offer. The union, which recently secured recognition by Virgin, is preparing for a ballot on industrial action if there is no breakthrough.
Pilots want a two-year deal worth 12 per cent above inflation and a 3.5 per cent boost to pensions. Pilots' representatives argue that Virgin's flight crew are paid 25 per cent less than their colleagues at British Airways, where senior captains earn more than £100,000 a year.
The letter, by Malcolm Wagstaff, Virgin Atlantic's flight operations director, conceded that the airline was "not a market leader" for pay but said it could not afford a bigger rise. "The commercial damage ... starts from the moment customers get wind of a potential for disruption," he wrote. "Our reputation and image, as well as opportunities for growth and stability, will be jeopardised."



Many thanks for your responses, if I have made a mistake and you did not indeed get close to striking as the news article details then I apologise, however I feel your aggressive tone is unwarranted.

[exvicar]

If crew are so easy to replace then why are we always short of crew?
If pilots are sooooo hard to find - why do we have enough!!!!!

Errr, how about comparing the sickness rates bewteen pilots and cabin crew. Pilots don't generally call in sick to get a weekend off.

[keiranlgw]

Hello all,

I have just reread my benefits page in my offer letter, and I noticed that after 12 months we get Income Protection.

Please could someone let me know about this? I have private cover and wondering if it would be worth saving the £25 a month if Virgin will cover me.

Any advice would be great, either here or PVT.

Thanks,

Keiran.

[JB1888]

Now Is Not The Time To Get Disheartened My Fellow Cabin Crew, Lets Not Lose Sight Of Our Goal,

To Get A Fair Pay For The Job That We Do,

Do Not Get Dragged Into Other Dept's Debates That Is Their Issues

The Do Not Have A Union And I Bet They Wish They Did

We Have Came This Far And We Are Close To Obtaining More

We Can Afford To Lose A Days Pay More Than The Company Can

Any 'Downsizing' In The Company Should Be Done At The Expense Of Strambi, Moir, Lee And Ridgeway

They Are The Ones That Are Inept At Their Jobs Sack Them!!!

I Have Spoken To Many Many Crew Who Feel The Same

Vote Yes To Strike!!!!!!

[Nuts&Bolts]

What a load of old tosh! Your union hasn't exactly done you proud so you lot seem to think. You've been told twice to accept the offer yet you seem to think there's still more in the pot. You guys are always wittering on about how bad your pay is, yet you're happy to strike and lose more wages. Do you lot actually understand what "strike" means? From what I hear there's a hardcore minority of crew who want to strike and are dragging many other crew members in on it all who don't really understand the implications of what they are actually saying "yes" or "no" to.

The majority of us on the ground don't have unions, and I don't think we wished we did either - we deal with the management ourselves face to face, and they don't get an easy ride these days. I think mentioning sacking Strambi, Moir, Lee and Ridgeway is a bit harsh. It's more than likely thanks to those guys that we still have an airline to work for when you consider all the events of the last few years - 9/11 etc etc.

The airline doesn't revolve around the cabin crew - yes you're on the front line but you're not the only people working for Virgin Atlantic. There's a lot more to it that means our aircraft get off the ground everyday, and all you're doing is holding everybody and their jobs to ransom.

And yes, we did only get a 2% payrise this year - but did we all switch off our pc's, put down our biros, tools etc and strike - no, I think not. What would the Cabin Crew have done then if we had been able to strike and grounded the aircraft - because you wouldn't have been flying. You would have all been up in arms no doubt!

Seems you guys want it all your own way, when unfortunately life isn't like that. Just accept the offer on the table because I very much doubt it'll change.

[back2front]

What a load of old tosh! - you are just jealous because you don't have the balls to form a union to represent you.

You deal with management face to face - well I suppose better being lied to face to face than via iFly.

We only got a 2% payrise - so form a union obviously your face to face negotiations didn't work?

What would the cabin crew have done if you had gone on strike? - support you

Want it all our own way - I don't think so. The pilots stuck together, we can, you should.

VOTE YES to STRIKE

[sign-it-to-your-room]

Thats enough mud slinging methinks.........

nuts&bolts: Please do not make judgements of crew as a whole. Its unfair and downright rude. Look back through the threads, this has been agreed that we would not do this. 29% of crew voted No to the last offer, so you have no right to refer to the other 71% in the way that you do.:=

Backtofront and JB1888:
Load of old tosh! :yuk:

Think I'll only read Kasual Observers posts from now on, and of course our Scoobs................................

Thats a thought. Scoobs, why dont you take on board what KO has said and become our new rep?

[Nuts&Bolts]

Sign-it-to-your-room, I do apologise but the last couple of pages on this post were enough to rile me. This negotiation is at a crucial stage and we're now hearing quite enough in the workplace, in the press etc etc. Some of the comments on the last couple of pages are VERY valid and sensible such as Kasual Observers, yet others are still dead set on striking. I'm not juding the crew as a whole. We're very aware of the breakdowns of what percentage did or didnt return a vote. We have around 3500 crew yet how many actually bothered to vote or are in the union - we know because it's been worked out on here. There's no way I'd tar all the crew with the same brush and I can assure you I don't. We have an excellent bunch of crew who unfortunately are being dragged down by a minority.

Back2front - What difference does having a union make, if the money isn't in the pot to start with you can't have it in your wage packet. How many crew in the union have slagged of Unite/Amicus because they feel they've been sold down the river or they haven't got the result they wanted. After being strongly advised to accept the 2nd offer it still came back as a "NO" vote. To see the mess you guys are in now and arguing amongst yourselves, what good has the union done the crew? If I thought you guys were getting a bad deal then yes I'd support you, but at this stage I think you need to be realistic and accept whats there. The pilots did stick together, but never found themselves in the mess the crew are currently in.

It's all a bit of a shambles to be honest, and I'll just sit back and watch as to when those voting "YES" to a strike create uncertainly amongst our customers, and cause unrest for others working in the company.

[scoobydooo]

N&B

TO keep it short and simple, yes the union is not perfect, what good has it done...

in summary without it the pay rises that have been negotiated over the last 5 years would at maximum half of what we have achieved, so - less union fees we are still better off than not having a union.

Granted it could do with some serious improvements in the communications with members area and a few other areas to but on the whole crew are better off because of it.