Joining on long final...... why?

[stiknruda]

Runway in use is 07.

Air/ground radio - manned.

Traffic inbound from both east and west, some high performance, some medium, some low.

Two aircraft (dissimilar types) want to join long final. A seven mile final for 07!

Why do people insist on joining long final, it really buggers up circuit traffic?

From being rightfully #1 to land to being cut up on final by two long-finalists really made my day today.

A serious lack of airmanship and spatial awareness. Whatever happened to tight circuits? Today's circuits were longer than some of my cross-country's!

Oh - and formation means more than one aircraft!

[Tiger_mate]

Take a chill pill, relax; savour the moment; after all you are airborne.
Extend downwind and think what a nice time you are having.

Have to sympathise a little though, overhead joins are a lot more considerate for the majority of GA, fast movers / rich mans toys being an exception.

Flipside: They may have been learners, and everyone has been there once upon a time. Respect and consideration should be mutual.

PS

7 miles away is not my definition of 'long final', and hereabouts that puts you in a differant county, at Welshpool it puts you in a differant country!

[Them thar hills]

It would be great to think that all joins and circuits would be confined to the ATZ (if one exists) or a similar amount of airspace if no ATZ. After all thats the purpose of the ATZ -for the protection of traffic within, and circuit flying should be taught as such, unless noise abatement reasons make "standard" circuit a no-no.
This used to be normal practise, and often non radio. Aircraft have become easier to fly, so whats changed ?
( Long final - between 4 and 8 miles )
:(

[Final 3 Greens]

Long final is more than 4 miles.

Straight in traffic must give way to circuit traffic.

[BEagle]

You'll probably find that the pilot was also an airliner driver, and had forgotten the normal technique for joining the visual circuit.

I was Duty Bod in the tower at Benson once. 4 Bloggses solo in their Bulldogs in the circuit, when someone in a corgi-carrier (no royal on board) announces he is positioning for a straight-in visual join.

"Tell the bugger to join through initials with 4 in ahead", I told the local controller. "But..but...it's the Queen's Flight", spluttered the controller.

"I don't care who he is - the Flying Order Book does not include priority for visual straight-in joins. He can either break off and position for an instrument approach, or fit in with the visual circuit traffic. His choice!".

After being somewhat surpirsed at the instruction, the corgi-carrier duly joined through initials, then completed a tidy run-in-and-break in his BAe146. Later he mentioned the event to the CFI. "Serves you bloody right", said the CFI, "Suggest you read the FOB in future!"

[foxmoth]

Nothing wrong with joining long final if traffic permits - and F3Gs comment applies!
Straight in traffic must give way to circuit traffic.
If they can't do that then they should not be joining straight in.:=

[Zulu Alpha]

G-EMMA, its discourteous to do this, but with A/G its up to the pilots to sort things out. If you were on base and Mr Long final nipped in front of you then that is poor airmanship and not following the rules.
If it was good VFR and you could both see each other it probably wasn't unsafe
However I'm sure it was good training in being able to deal with a situation that is not normal and that is valuable. You will come across things like this and being able to deal with them is part of being a good pilot.
If it was me I would have said something on the radio and later when the other pilot was on the ground.
I once did the same when landing at an airfield that was A/G. I was on long final and the A/G told me the runway in use and did not mention any traffic. They also said OK when I said straight in on a long final. It was only when I got to 500ft and 1 mile final that I heard a twin announce he was turning final. I hadn't seen or heard him. I couldn't see him but knew he was behind me somewhere so I landed and vacated quickly. He went around and then left for somewhere else. It was a genuine mistake on my part and I would have apologised had I had the chance. Maybe I shouldn't have just come in on a long final, but to join the pattern would have meant flying a circle around the airfield as I was approaching from a 20 mile final, it was early morning and I thought I was alone.

[n5296s]

I guess I'm missing something here. Are you saying that in the UK, once someone is lined up with the runway, you can't turn base in front of them?

It happens all the time here. At Livermore there's often someone on a long straight in and they'll turn pattern traffic in front of them as long as they're far enough away.

Reminds me of when I flew out of Biarritz a few months ago and they held us for takeoff for a plane that wasn't even visible, which meant several minutes holding instead of just taking off in front of them. If they tried that at Palo Alto, throughput would drop to a tenth.

n5296s

[Zulu Alpha]

n5296s, I think its the other way round. Someone on long final should give way to someone in the circuit on base. Especially if there is no ATC, just A/G which is really just advice on runway, wind etc.
Reminds me of when I flew out of Biarritz a few months ago and they held us for takeoff for a plane that wasn't even visible, which meant several minutes holding instead of just taking off in front of them.
I expect this was because it was a French aircraft and you were English/British/American.... std practise by the French I think!!!!

[stiknruda]

T-M: I'm so chilled that I didn't even seek him out on the ground to remonstrate! Yep, I was up there, but I am quite a lot, so the novelty of being dicked around by the badly trained has worn off!

Well trained/briefed newbies (and they do exist) would never have been so thoughtless/stupid/ego-centric.

The point being that neither of the wallies understood that they DID NOT have priority - both were down in the weeds (a la G-EMMA's post) and having gently suggested that "it might just be my turn to land", neither took any heed of this and bored on in.

The first driver (for he certainly wasn't a pilot) had such poor spatial awareness that I just hope he made it home safely today and will continue to do so, despite his lack of SA and airmanship.

The second saw a trend occurring and jumped on the bandwagon!

I have had a super day of aviating, however if by promulgating the acts of a couple of clowns - makes every one else have a super and safer day in the future, then I feel that our tiny community can only benefit.

Stik

[IO540]

A lot of people make duff position calls, unfortunately. Sometimes deliberately.

The other side of this debate is that there is nothing wrong with joining straight in if there isn't other traffic, but certain A/G controllers don't like this (especially at certain airfields where the A/G is done by the school CFI ;) ) and try to push everybody into doing an overhead join, which is a complete waste of time.

I would ask for a traffic report and if he is not aware of traffic I would go straight in - keeping a lookout of course as one does anyway.

To many traditionally trained pilots, a straight in join is more difficult that flying a circuit to land, but anybody navigating using radio nav can position themselves correctly 3 nm out (often, at that point, without sight of the runway) and then descend onto the runway.

One tip, Gemma, is that if something has shaken you, fly away somewhere for 10 mins or whatever, calm down, then come back. Flight training is all about piling on the pressure (to the point where the student often cracks and the instructor has to take over) but you would never do that by choice when flying alone.

[drauk]

Straight in traffic must give way to circuit traffic

Except at Elstree, where additionally the first turn in a left hand circuit off of runway 26 is to the right. Not that you're allowed to fly circuits...

[stiknruda]

IO540 - I totally agree, a straight in approach is fine IF THERE IS NO CIRCUIT TRAFFIC.

I do it all the time at home, cuts down on time and avoids the noise caused by a/c droning around a circuit.

[SkyHawk-N]

So where is runway "07" anyway?

[englishal]

I joined on base the other day (for a 07). Another aeroplane inbound from Bournemouth got on the radio and said "are we allowed to join on base?"....I think having a dig at me. The A/G op affirmed. I was hoping he'd come and find me to remonstrate ;)

However if they had bothered to check up on airfield procedures, a base leg, or straight in join is prefered due to noise abaitment. In fact MANY airfield have "non standard" procedures. Try doing an overhead join at Old Sarum on a weekday and you'll meet a Eurofighter coming the other way....

Also many ATC fields don't care if you do a straight in. Last time I went to Lands End ATC said "you can either do an overhead join or a straight in join". I opted for the straight in as it saves messing around in the most dangerous place in the sky (overhead an airfield, where most midairs occur).

I don't really care about "who is first" and don't suffer from air rage. If I have to give way so we don't collide then fine.

[robin]

>>I don't really care about "who is first" and don't suffer from air rage. If I have to give way so we don't collide then fine.<<<

Nice attitude. I wish others took that line. :ok:

Over the past weeks (and I assume this is because people are out of practice), we've had stand-up rows with other pilots whose airmanship on joining is lacking.

Just because you are in a particular part of the circuit, it does not guarantee that you won't be cut up. One or two of said pilots seem to assume that a/g airfields actually sequence landings.

Try Popham on an event day. It's great for practicing go-rounds. ;)

Oh, and if someone does call long finals at our field, they are advised to give way to circuit traffic.

[Whirlybird]

Long Final is 4 to 8 miles, and joining this way is part of normal aviation procedure, unless not allowed at that particular airfield. But you are not in the circuit, so circuit traffic has priority...which shouldn't matter, because you're so far out anyway.

When I learned to fly at Welshpool we joined on long final all the time if approaching from the North when runway 22 was being used. It would have been crazy not to. You would be flying down between the hills, and there was the runway several miles ahead of you. Why would you climb way above the hills in order to join overhead, do a circuit, and come down again?

Like anything else in aviation, joining on long final works fine if people know what they're doing. And also like everything else in aviation, it doesn't work if they don't. :(

G-EMMA, I sympathise, but eventually you'll have to learn not to get flummoxed by what other people are doing. And eventually (soon!) you will. :ok:

[Zulu Alpha]

I do remember when I was training. It always felt as if I hadn't quite mastered something before moving on. However if we went back to that particular exercise later it always seemed easy. I think this is the sign of a good instructor, to push you on at a pace which they assess you can take. To the student, this will always seem as if you are behind the curve. I do think this is the correct way, otherwise you will spend a lot more time on your training.
So, G-EMMA, it sounds like your instructor did the right thing and let you handle the situation rather than just taking over the controls. Maybe you didn't handle it perfectly, but there was no midair, you landed with no damage or injury ...and you learnt a lot. So all in all it was a valuable experience, even if the other pilot was at best discourteous.
You were outside your comfort zone, but will now know what to do if something similar occurs again....and yes, you should speak with the other pilot if you see him/her in the clubhouse.

[foxmoth]

Don't forget here I had called downwind so if he was on our frequency he should have known I was in the circuit
I always teach my students that the R/T is a "second set of eyes" and if you listen other peoples calls you should be able to tell where they are (provided of course they call in the right place), unfortunately not everyone uses this facility!:ugh:

[Tim Dawson]

I join on long finals when I can, sometimes adding that I'll give way to circuit traffic on my radio call (I do, regardless of whether I mention it). The main reason is that at £120/hr, not performing an overhead join can save me 6 minutes/£12/dinner!

[vintage ATCO]

the most dangerous place in the sky (overhead an airfield, where most midairs occur).

Oh, how many's that then?

[scooter boy]

Joining on long finals, why?


Because the overhead join is dangerous and antiquated and should be banned IMHO.

No reason why not to join on long final if the circuit is clear.

Just my opinion

SB

[high-hopes]

Well outside the UK the overhead join is perhaps the LESS used way of entering the circuit isn't it ?

[Chilli Monster]

No reason why not to join on long final if the circuit is clear

And if it's not?

[eharding]

Because the overhead join is dangerous and antiquated and should be banned IMHO.

The overhead join is only dangerous when flown by agoraphobic 2@s who get a panic attack when required to look out of the window, don't know left from right, and have a problem maintaining a height to the nearest 500 feet.

I suggest that we ban the latter, rather than the former.

Just my opinion, you understand.

[fireflybob]

Rather surprised that nobody has mentioned Rule 16 of the Rules of the Air - aircraft shall conform to the pattern formed by other aircraft etc,

Also landing priority - when two aircraft are approaching to land the lower has priority....except that you should not cut in front of an aircraft which is already established on final. (emergencies excepted).

What worries me are the aircraft that call an A/G and ask things like "Am I clear to join left base, straight in etc?" - they dont seem to understand that A/G cannot issue such a clearance.

As for the overhead join - subject to any local noise abatement - there is no problem with this so long as pilots know how to fly it and is indeed the correct way of joining the circuit at an uncontrolled aerodrome (my comments relate to UK only - our cousins elsewhere have their own way of doing things!).

Also notwithstanding basic airmanship if you are in the ATZ and someone joins "Long Final" then they are OUTSIDE the ATZ so you are quite entitled to turn in ahead of them!

At times I am quite appalled at some of the circuit discipline (or lack of it) which is displayed by some (usually visiting) pilots.

[Jumbo Driver]

FireflyBob, I agree with you. One of the reasons why many try to join Long Final or by establishing on an Extended Base or Downwind Leg is that so many are ignorant of, unpracticed at or just plain frightened of the Standard Overhead Join.

Despite assertions to the contrary, the Standard Overhead Join is a safe and long-established method of joining a conventional small airfield circuit and it works for radio and non-radio. If only it was emphasised in training and used more at GA airfields, the circuit would be a safer place.

I know there are often reasons why a "level join" is mandated (CAS overhead, no "dead side", etc) but in the general case the SOJ is not only adequate but should be the preferred normal option.

As you say, the other principle so often ignored - and which would make the circuit safer for all - is Rule 12, which requires all turns in the ATZ to be made in the direction of the traffic pattern (i.e circuit direction).

Basic training is lacking, I think, in not emphasising both these essentials.



JD
:)

[Them thar hills]

No-one has yet mentioned observing the windsock.
Thats one very good reason to join o/h. It's sometimes a mistake to think that the wind at the point of departure is what you'll find at the destination. :ouch:

[ShyTorque]

These days I only fly rotary but am quite happy to join by any safe method, including from overhead.

At some airfields, due to the huge bomber circuits routinely taught and flown (very often outside the ATZ before the end of downwind) it's sometimes difficult when joining to work out who is actually in the circuit and who is just passing by! I was taught to keep the aircraft in a position where it could make the airfield in the event of engine failure (and later taught the same to others). These days, some people should be doing rejoin checks before turning base leg....... :hmm:

[Pitts2112]

Hiya, Stik,
(got your gloves, by the way, so Oshkosh wasn't a total loss!) :)

When people call long final like that, especially when it's a busy circuit, I look at it as a warning shot that they're coming in rather than laying claim to the runway. I also suspect that as they get closer, people will either make way or the long-final will end up going around. No real problem either way. If they're far enough out, I carry on with my circuit as normal and cut in front, provided I can do it safely (and, let's face it, in a Pitts we can get two circuits in before we can even see "Mr. Longfinal's" landing lights). This happens every once in a while at Popham and it's never been a problem that I know of. I actually think it's kind of a courtesy call by either a complex type coming in in the simplest way or someone who's approaching on runway heading and it's just easier for all concerned if they just come straight in. In the Tcraft I've been known to do straight-in approaches, but obviously in the Pitts I don't.

On the matter of the overhead join, I really don't understand what all the fuss is about. Why is it any more dangerous than everyone joining midfield downwind as in the States? You still have every aircraft converging on one point, so what difference does it make where the point is? I prefer the SOJ as it gives me a chance to get some SA on the field to plan my approach, as well as have a good lookout for other traffic, especially non-radio stuff.
Here in the UK I routinely join overhead, midfield downwind, base leg and even straight in depending on how I'm approaching a field and what's already going on there. If it's done with respect for what's going on in the circuit already, it's not ever a problem. On a busy day, I stick to the SOJ for the reasons stated above. If it's a slow circuit, I'll join in any of the other ways, making sure I can be seen and announce clearly what I'm doing, and making sure I don't put anyone out who's already established in the circuit.

I wonder if yachties moan about the lack of seamanship in every other sailor on the water the way we seem to moan about the lack of airmanship in everyone esle in the air. We really need to just get on with the business of flying for fun and stop trying to police everyone else. There are times I think we don't need the Belgrano as there are plenty of self-appointed "deputy examiners" out there willing to pull people up for minor infractions of the ANO.

Just fly and have fun, fer Chr!st's sake!! :) (this bit not directed at you, Stik)
Pitts2112

[stiknruda]

It transpires (through PM) that the miscreant was a student pilot on a x-country.

It just reinforces my comment about his poor standard of training.

I'm not the "fun-police" and I have £ucked up in my time (and will probably do so again!) but there is a right way of doing things and if we all do things the right way, then the skies will be safer and more fun for the majority!


Oh - the gloves that 2112 refers to are gardening gloves, not flying ones!!

[Cusco]

I went to the Piper day at Duxford yesterday:
I was approaching the runway in use (24) from the NE exactly on runway heading. I tuned to Duxford Info 15 miles out once Lakenheath had dumped me to hear that the circuit was frantically busy.

At 10 miles I called and asked if there was any chance of a straight-in to 24: (principally because, since there are no overhead/deadside joins at Duxford, to join downwind would have meant flying past the airfield to the south outside the circuit and perilously close to Stansted's zone and doing a 180 and joining downwind: a good 5-8 mins extra flying.

As it happened I was asked to report 4,and 2 miles to run, by which time the circuit was clear and I got my straight in (thanks Alan).

Now if the circuit had been busy I would willingly have joined downwind, so if you don't ask you don't get even if initially the circuit appears busy.

Safe flying

Cusco. ;)

[SkyHawk-N]

Oh - the gloves that 2112 refers to are gardening gloves, not flying ones!!
Not Evening Gloves then?
http://www.perfectdetails.com/gloves/silk/images/silkB384-lg.jpg :p

[stiknruda]

SH-N: Those gloves are the ones that your proctologist uses, surely?

Where did he find those pearls?

[Lister Noble]

Runway 07?
The only one I know round here is Old Buckenham,where the standard of training is very high.
But there may be others of course.
I use long finals quite often,I listen to traffic and request long final,sometimes you may have to hang around for a short time but if you are in position it beats a really long circuit as exists at some placed due to noise control etc.

Experienced yachties get pi**ed off with knowalls,daredevils and bulls**ters just the same as in aviation.
What is amazing is you can buy an £x million motor boat that does 30 knots and drive off without a licence,sometimes drunk.
I think the last bit is now being looked at by HM Gov.
Have fun!
Lister:)

[englishal]

sometimes drunk
That is being stopped soon....unfortunately :}

(doh , just seen you already said that. Oh well, back to the helm and another bottle of bubbly :eek:)

[stiknruda]

07 - OB - training high. Totally agree Lister

chappie was on a x-country, didn't emanate or terminate at OB!

[hugh flung_dung]

I also get very annoyed by people doing straight-in approaches at uncontrolled airfields; especially when they aren't aware that they have to give way to circuit traffic, or claim not to have seen anyone on base leg.
An OHJ is certainly the default, but I don't know why more people don't get taught about IP joins. If approaching in the runway direction it's so easy to arrange to fly just to the deadside of the runway and then to turn onto downwind at an appropriate point (usually over the upwind numbers). It also helps with descent and energy management so why isn't it in the standard text books?

HFD

[White Shadow]

At an uncontrolled airfield, if a straight-in approach seems useful, and there's traffic in the circuit, my radio call is - "G**** joining long final, two in sight downwind", eg.
(lets them know I've seen them)
WS

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

Top marks for stupidity must go to the visiting Cherokee driver yesterday who blasted his way into the circuit at Warp factor 5, turning finals inside at least another 3 aircraft positioned correctly on the approach, only to have to go around and do it all over again 'cos he was too high.:ok:

Remember, a good landing results from a good approach, which results from a good circuit....

And even worse are the to$$ers who call "lining up" and then pull onto the runway in front of landing traffic without even a glance to see if anything is coming, only to faff around on the runway and cause aircraft to go around.

Grrrrrrr

[hugh flung_dung]

White Shadow: rather than doing what you describe, why not consider just flying down the deadside at (or just below) circuit height and then breaking onto downwind when there's a suitable gap? It only adds a couple of minutes and will remove the risk of causing irritation or worse to those that you haven't seen (it's also easier to fly than a straight-in approach and allows you to save time in the descent to circuit height)

HFD

[FullyFlapped]

An OHJ is certainly the default, but I don't know why more people don't get taught about IP joins.
Just out of interest, I was originally trained at a well-known regional intergalactic spaceport. I was never shown a OHJ at all during my entire training ... and I wonder how many others that applies to ?

As to IP joins - works for me (but then like most people, I'm quite happy to join in whichever way works best for all concerned), but wouldn't this simply complicate the issue even more, particularly for the more inexperienced amongst us ? Do you not have to have established (and therefore presumably published?) IP's ?

I'm no expert on these approaches, so feel free to educate me ! ;)

FF :ok:

[FREDSIMTH]

At an uncontrolled airfield, if a straight-in approach seems useful, and there's traffic in the circuit, my radio call is - "G**** joining long final, two in sight downwind", eg.
(lets them know I've seen them)
WS
White shadow - You must have very good eyesight to see downwind traffic from 4+ miles

[White Shadow]

hfd -
Agreed. Maybe I should have said "if a SIA seems appropriate"
I was thinking - excellent visibility; easy to adjust speed to let them in first; not a busy circuit; someone on the ground waiting for the aircraft; ready to go around if necessary; etc
WS

[White Shadow]

Fred.
Don't expect to at four miles. Just set up the approach, and continue until I can see downwind traffic clearly (good vis. only, remember)
WS

[hugh flung_dung]

FF: No, you don't need a published IP, or to call "initials" - it's actually very easy and safe.
Just fly parallel to the runway while descending for the last couple of miles (or from the edge of the ATZ), call "joining deadside", fly along the deadside of the runway at circuit height (or very slightly below so you can see downwind traffic against the sky), and then turn onto downwind at an appropriate point to fit-in.

IMNSHO straight-in approaches at uncontrolled fields should be banned :mad:

I'm somewhat surprised that you weren't taught OHJs, but I guess it just got missed by accident.

HFD

[Jumbo Driver]

FF: No, you don't need a published IP, or to call "initials" - it's actually very easy and safe.
Just fly parallel to the runway while descending for the last couple of miles (or from the edge of the ATZ), call "joining deadside", fly along the deadside of the runway at circuit height (or very slightly below so you can see downwind traffic against the sky), and then turn onto downwind at an appropriate point to fit-in.

I agree, you don't have to call "Initials" - in any event this would confuse matters as AFAIK it is not recognised "civil speak". It is the same as those pseudo-mil guys who insist on calling "Finals" when they are really only Late Downwind ...

(tin hat on ...)


JD
:)

[englishal]

Just fly parallel to the runway while descending for the last couple of miles (or from the edge of the ATZ), call "joining deadside", fly along the deadside of the runway at circuit height (or very slightly below so you can see downwind traffic against the sky), and then turn onto downwind at an appropriate point to fit-in.
IMNSHO straight-in approaches at uncontrolled fields should be banned
I'm somewhat surprised that you weren't taught OHJs, but I guess it just got missed by accident.

So....when I am joining from the deadside or have completed my descending turn to circuit height from an OHJ, are you going to give way to me on your "parallel deadside no one knows what you are doing approach"? Seems about as "bad" as a straight in approach, except on a straight in approach everyone knows what you are doing.

Also you have to bear in mind that it is pretty much only uncontrolled fields (bar a few ) that use the OHJ. Try and OHJ at Bournemouth for example and you'll either meet a Falcon or bust Solent's airspace.

I am not sure why in the UK we get so hung up about idiotic stuff like this. Who cares how someone joins. If someone joins on a long final so what, aircraft on downwind can either turn inside if there is space, or turn behind if not....it really is very easy. But of course we seem to suffer from Air Rage over here, and despite us flying perfectly everyone else shows appalling airmanship.

I must have shown appalling airmanship the other day when I joined Old Sarum on base leg, with someone just turning downwind. Shock horror, I landed and cleared the active and was no bother to them whatsoever.
Over and out.

[hugh flung_dung]

englishal: the path flown is exactly the same as a go-around so I don't understand your concern - and since neither of us are in the circuit at that point the normal rules of the air apply.

Regarding Bournemouth, absolutely right - that's why I was discussing uncontrolled fields. You should be taught all types of join regardless of where you train.

Regarding Old Sarum - I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. As long as you fitted-in safely, joined on the correct base and didn't fly an airliner approach I'm sure nobody thought anything other than "welcome". If you were the wally who insisted on turning the wrong way then the thoughts were probably not as kind.
Next time you're there on a Saturday ask for "Dave", I'll buy you a tea to show you how friendly and welcoming we are :ok:

HFD

[Over_Shoot]

In my experience, initial joins should be used more in the civilian world, IP is normally 3 miles out on the deadside, allows you to clearly the see all the traffic in the circuit without any problems. Spacing is easier to judge and you can turn into the circuit whenever there is a suitable gap.

I find OHJs a particularly clumsy way to join the circuit, normally struggling to ident other traffic against the backdrop of the ground below. Therefore I avoid unless they are absolutely necessary. At civilian airfields I prefer downwind/crosswind joins unless I know the airfield has no problems with me carrying out an initials join.

OS

[Jumbo Driver]

An Initials Join (whatever that is) should NOT be used at a civil airfield because most other pilots will not be familiar with the procedure.

Safety is about many things and, in the visual circuit, it is about seeing and being seen; amongst other things, it relies to a very large degree on understanding what the other aircraft is likely to be doing.

Initials Join, Run-and-Break and other pseudo-mil procedures may have their place - at military airfields - but until they are accepted (and published) procedures in the civil world, they should NOT be used at civil airfields.

Common sense, really ...



JD
:)

[White Shadow]

Going back to the original thread title -
Usually, the time I join on long final (to an uncontrolled airfield) is on coming home after a cross-country, and when my course to the field is somewhere near the runway-in-use direction.
I talk to the airfield radio for that, and listen-out to hear who else is joining, or in the circuit, and (hopefully) making the usual circuit calls.
WS

[Pitts2112]

I've taken to doing little-known Standard Underhead Join, based on my experience as mentioned by HFD - not being able to see other traffic against the backdrop of the ground. I approach the dead side at about 250ft AGL so I can see all other traffic against the sky. Makes establishing SA very easy.

Then, since I know where everyone else is, and I can sequence myself in, I'll then call "G-XXXX, climbing dead side", zoom-climb up to circuit height and turn crosswind from there.

Easy really.

Pitts2112

[fireflybob]

Well some of us are old enough to recall a Chipmunk landing on top of another Chipmunk at Nottingham (Tollerton) in the 1960s. Guess what? The one on top had done a long straight in approach and was also non radio (and incidentally had not PPRed). Very fortunately all came away unscathed - miraculously the (solo) pilot of the lower a/c had his shoulder harness cut by the rotating prop of the other aircraft!.

One advantage of the SOJ (assuming it is being flown what I would term as "correctly" is that the descent is being conducted in turning flight. This means that the airspace below the aircraft is being continuously cleared for other aircraft. I cringe when I see guys descending on the dead side in a straight line parallel to the runway! The descending turn also means a better view of the landing runway where aircraft taking off, touching and going, going around and on initial climbout may be easily observed and a sensible decision made as to how to fit into the pattern without disrupting traffic already in the circuit. Whichever way you join the circuit you should be in level flight BEFORE entering the live side.

[Knight Paladin]

Jumbo - I agree, an "Initials" join, should not be mentioned at a civil airfield, as you risk confusing other pilots .... however, flying the same procedure, omitting the Initials call, and referring to your actions as a "deadside" join strikes me as easy to understand. The procedure involved is (in my opinion) at least equally safe as an OHJ, and definately more efficient when joining from anywhere within 90 degrees of the runway heading. I also think that civil pilots lack of understanding of this basic piece of military teaching is an oversight in the training system; as I've described above I think it has many benefits to offer.

Pitts - Love it mate, spot on! Might have to rename my deadside joins!

The important thing to note about an Initials/Deadside join is that you must most definately remain on the deadside, to avoid confliction with circuit traffic turning base/final and on final.

[englishal]

Regarding Old Sarum - I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. As long as you fitted-in safely, joined on the correct base and didn't fly an airliner approach I'm sure nobody thought anything other than "welcome". If you were the wally who insisted on turning the wrong way then the thoughts were probably not as kind.
Next time you're there on a Saturday ask for "Dave", I'll buy you a tea to show you how friendly and welcoming we are
Actually I was just using LS as an example of why not to OHJ and how easy it is to join from all parts of the circuit without disrupting other people (I didn't turn the other way ;)).

Thanks :ok: I'll take you up on the offer of a tea though. I know you guys are a good bunch which is why I want to do the aero's course there (you don't work there do you?). If you see an aeroplane land with Breitling painted down the side it could well be me ;)

[hugh flung_dung]

:O if you decide to do an aeros course on Saturdays at OS we will almost certainly be flying together :) - by the end of the course (one of the best you can do, and the Bulldogs are perfect for it) I may even manage to convince you of the benefits of what we've discussed above.

Send me a PM if you want to get in touch to discuss the course.

HFD

[IO540]

All this stuff has been done to death on pilot forums many times.

There isn't any way to arrive at an airfield which is inherently safe. Some offer you a better view of the existing traffic than others; that's all.

IMHO, the OHJ is one of the worst because if several planes arrive together (which is likely, because at many airfields it is only when ATC can't cope that the OHJ is requested) they will end up orbiting all at 2000ft and any one of them can't possibly be visual with all the others. The procedure relies on each one seeing traffic in front - they can't see what's behind. But different pilots have different views of the "correct" diameter of the orbit.

With a straight in, one is flying straight ahead, thus has a low cockpit workload, and is in a good position to have a good look around for other traffic.

It's true that one cannot join a tightly packed circuit from a straight in, but one can't join a tightly packed circuit from any other arrival method, either ;)

A straight in join also offers the potential, for anyone with TCAS, and assuming everybody is transponding, to check for traffic in a rather more robust way.

I think that many pilots are suspicious of the OHJ in that it is regarded as the "goode olde English proper RAF way" and gets over-used, sometimes deliberately to make life hard. I recall going regularly to Panshanger a few years ago, and there was some masochist (GA is full of these types) on the radio, a PPL instructor I believe, who would firmly request (even though he had no legal right to do this) an OHJ, for what was a RH circuit (i.e. the most difficult combination to visualise), and I am sure he just sat there and laughed his head off at all the pilots who did the wrong entry etc. With the proximity of Luton this probably resulted in a few pilots shooting off in the wrong direction...

[Knight Paladin]

Not sure why the OHJ could be regarded as the "RAF" way, at least not for the last 60 odd years....

[Mikehotel152]

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I've often tried to visualise how to perform a standard overhead join when you're approaching from the deadside.

Of course, it would be sensible to descend deadside and then join crosswind in those circumstances but, as IO540 said about Panshanger with a RH circuit and masochist controller, pilots often find themselves being forced to perform an unusual or unexpected join.

Am I right in thinking that - in the above example of a RH circuit - a pilot arriving from the deadside and receiving instructions to perform a SOJ should overfly the upwind end of runway at 2000ft AGL, make a 180 degree right turn (all turns in circuit direction) so crossing over the active runway threshold at 2000ft AGL and then descend back on the deadside in the usual way? :confused:

[Jumbo Driver]

IO540 you make some valid points, and I agree that we are, to a certain extent, trying to find the "least worst" method of joining the circuit.

However, in response to some of your points -

The straight-in approach, by definition, works only from one direction - the SOJ works from all directions.

If several aircraft arrive together, it is surely better for them to space themselves while either orbiting at 2000' or while descending deadside than to all try to barge in together? Also, if there are few gaps, how and where do they hold pending a gap, if they all arrive at circuit height?

It is not just the arriving pilot's convenience that needs to be considered. It is arguably more important to consider the matter from those who are already established in the circuit.

With the OHJ, arriving aircraft are filtered in from the crosswind leg so there is one principal area for the circuit flyer to watch for arriving traffic.

You mention a tightly packed circuit; if you are circling at 2000' waiting for a gap to join, that surely has to be better than being at the same level as and increasing the density of traffic at circuit height.

Your TCAS point is largely irrelevant for the type of GA operation we are are considering.

The SOJ is not used "to make life hard". If properly understood and carried out, it is no more difficult or risky than any other method and it has the major advantage that joiners arrive in an orderly manner. It also caters for both radio and non-radio arrivals and provides the ability to inspect the signals square from overhead and to orientate the pilot who may be at an unfamiliar airfield.

I realise there are two distinct views on the Standard Overhead Join procedure. I believe it needs to be in every pilot's repertoire for use at the appropriate time. Regrettably, that seems not to be the case - so it should have more emphasis in both initial and recurrent training. It is a Standard procedure which, if all were properly conversant with it, would serve to enhance safety on the many occasions when undisciplined arrivals just "happen".


JD
:)

[Keef]

I will often ask an A/G operator "Is there any other traffic about, and do you like or dislike straight-in approaches?"

I'm not asking for instructions, and it leaves them clear to say what they choose. More than once I've had "No other traffic; we prefer straight-in, offset to avoid XXX, to keep the neighbours happy". No problem.

If I've heard other traffic on frequency making an SOJ, I know what to expect and will plan for the same. Some places seem to like SOJ even if there's nobody else around - fair enough. I did one at Beccles last week!

SOJ isn't exactly difficult, once I've managed to visualise it in my mind. Something like "descending turn on the deadside to cross the upwind end of the runway in use, over the numbers, at circuit height" as I recall. But then "home" is full ATC with radar, and joins are invariably the most efficient way to slot into the existing traffic.

I fly pretty tight circuits - and still I get cut up at A/G fields by others joining on base leg, or long final. One day I'll forget my manners...

[Whirlybird]

The way I was taught overhead joins....

Fly overhead the airfield at 2000 ft; turn in the circuit direction.
When you cross the numbers of the runway you'll be landing on, you're entering the deadside.

No visualisation needed.

[Jumbo Driver]

The way I was taught overhead joins....

Fly overhead the airfield at 2000 ft; turn in the circuit direction.
When you cross the numbers of the runway you'll be landing on, you're entering the deadside.

You're spot on, Whirlybird - it's simple.

Now, why can't all pilots understand that ... ?



JD
:)

[cotterpot]

Now, why can't all pilots understand that ... ?
They might 'understand' it but get very little practice. Some training airfields have no OHJ and no deadside, some have noise issues.
It is really about being adaptable and joining in the most expeditious way given the conditions and traffic.

[englishal]

Actually it is amazing how many people ask for "joining instructions" from an A/G operator, or other instructions which they cannot give. I've often wondered how to request their "preferred" join without asking for "instructions"? I guess sometimes plain English is best "ABC radio, GABCD 10 miles south at 2000 for landing request airfield information and preferred join" or something?

If I am approaching from the dead side I'll always join from the dead side so long as there is an A/G operator giving me weather info. It saves numerous turns and should enable you to nicely slot in with circuit traffic.

[fireflybob]

When conducting a Standard Overhead Join, if it's a left hand circuit turn the aircraft to place the aerodrome on the left hand side of the nose (ie 10 to 11 oclock), if it's a right hand circuit turn the aircraft to place the aerodrome on the right hand side of the nose (ie 1 to 2 oclock position). You then fly in turning flight keeping the aerodrome on the left (left hand circuit) or right (right hand circuit) at a minimum (ideally) of circuit height plus 1,000 ft until the landing runway is at the 9 oclock positon (left hand circuit) or 3 oclock position (right hand circuit). You are then on the dead side and may commence descent to circuit height in a descending turn to cross the upwind end of the runway in level flight at circuit height.

With students I find that if they get their initial orientation correct by turning to place the aerodrome on the correct side of the nose of the a/c the rest of the SOJ is quite straightforward.

Of course if the cloud base is too low a SOJ is not safe because you dont have enough vertical separation from aircraft in the circuit on the live side. For example if the circuit height is 800 ft and the cloudbase is 1,200 ft you would need to remain well clear of the live side in certain cases and let down to circuit height before joining deadside.

During training students need to be taught SOJs and "commercial joins" (ie straight in, base leg etc) because they may be called upon to do either depending on where they are intending to land. I find that in many cases those that learn to fly at controlled airports (licensed ATSU) struggle when they fly to an "airfield" with only A/G and have to start making their own decisions as to how to organise a join with respect to other traffic when previously they have been used to be instructed what to do by ATC.

I will often ask an A/G operator "Is there any other traffic about, and do you like or dislike straight-in approaches?"

Sorry to say it but in my opinion A/G operators have to be careful how they answer this sort of question due to liability in the event of an accident. They can say there is no reported traffic; if they reply in the affirm that they "like" straight-in approaches and you collide with the other a/c on finals I would not like to be in the shoes of the A/G operator at the subsequent court case. The only thing an A/G can give you is "information" and I personally think it is unfair and indeed incorrect to ask them something which they are not entitled to comment on.