will c152 fly alright with doors removed

[BallsToTheWall]

can you remove the doors on a 152 and fly it.

[hobbit1983]

Don't see why not, albeit with increased drag.

Whether or not it would be safe or advisable is probably another matter though!

[WHBM]

Whether it is certified to do it is another matter.

I have been on a number of Cessnas (180K, 206) with no door, for skydiving (which is I guess what you are looking at). The 180K actually had a proper in-flight openable door, top-hinged, which not only worked well but seemed to have little/no effect on aircraft handling when it was opened. I recall there was a guy in South Africa who operated a tandem skydiving operation from a C152, can only assume both pilot and tandem master were fairly skinny and the runway at their base sloped downhill !

[Mark 1]

The Aerobat versions have jettisonable doors, and they are alowed to fly with the doors off. I don't know the legalities of doing so with fixed hinge types.

It flies much the same as with them on, just a bit noisier and draughtier and no change in any V speeds as I recall. If allowed, it should be in the flight manual.

[old,not bold]

I'm sure I've seen C152 flown with doors off for photography, from Gamston. As someone said, maybe there's a bit more drag but nothing untoward, I would have thought.

I've opened the LH door in flight on a C152, just a little, but that was because the person in the RH seat farted on an industrial scale. Perhaps it was my flying.

[Maude Charlee]

It steers nicely with the doors instead of rudder pedals too.


Allegedly. :E

[Pilot DAR]

I have modification approval to fly my Cessna 150M (same airframe firewall aft as 152) with either door, but not both, removed, and it flies perfectly fine. I fly it that way most of the time in the summer. The modification approval includes removing the riveted hinge pins, and replacing them with removable pins. Removing the lower hinge to fuselage screws is a miserable task, most easily accomplished with the wing strut removed. I have even taken a parachutist up for a jump. I though that it would be a big pitch change when he got out. If I had not seen him leave, I would not have known he’d gone!

I disagree with a previous writer. It is my opinion that the Aerobat is not approved for flight with a door removed, it is approved for abandonment that way.

Having tried it during flight testing, I very much do not recommend flight of a 150/152 with both doors off. If you yaw, the air moves rapidly across the cabin and spills out the other side. All of the interior plastic panels begin thumping around (and they are expensive to replace when they come adrift) and there can be a very unpleasant blanking of the tail from the disturbed airflow.

As a person who evaluates design changes to light aircraft in accordance with Transport Canada accepted flight test plans, and having flown the 150 with both doors off, I would recommend that it does not meet the standards for handling configured that way.

Use caution flying aircraft in configurations not described in the Flight Manual, or an STC. It could be a non-approved configuration, and could affect your legality and insurance. I am aware of a “Parajumping” STC for the 150 to allow the removal of a door. Mine is approved by specific Transport Canada approval to my plane only.

If you can make it legal, pilot’s door off sure is nice though….

Oh, and by the way, try to explain to someone why slightly opening the left door in flight makes the plane turn right, not left…… There is a very logical answer when you think it through.

Cheers, Pilot DAR

[javelin]

A Cessna 120 flies just fine with the right door off - just don't get caught doing it - you get banned :sad:

[DX Wombat]

Read the POH for the definitive answer.

[InfraBoy]

Many years ago I learnt on C152s and throughly enjoyed flying them around with the windows open so can quite imagine that in the summer having one door off must be lovely.

Also learning in a Cherokee 140 with a single door I remember 'experiencing' alternative methods of controling the a/c by usiing the single door to yaw and the throttle to climb/decend - quite what would likely have happened to mean that one day I may have needed to control an aircraft like that I've no idea but it was good fun!

Admitidly a few years later I did have a Pup door fly open midair passing an airfield so carried out a Pan as we couldn't secure it shut in flight. All fun and games!

Oh, and left to right etc is the same reason when you blow between two pieces of paper they don't fly apart...

[PIGDOG]

I would have thought that opening either door in a 150 would have caused it to yaw in the direction of the open door, ie left door, yaw to the left.

That was until Pilot DAR made me think. Thanks for that :ok:

Now, after thinking it through, I can only presume that it's because the door is ahead of the centre of gravity. Just as the rudder is behind the CofG, a left deflection means the tail is effectively pushed to the right. Since the door is ahead of the CofG (albeit not nearly as far foreward as the rudder is back) the nose is effectively pushed to the right (assuming the left door is opened)

Am I right? Any other theories, or suggestions?

[On-MarkBob]

You must remember that if you modify an aircraft in any way a modification approval must be sought from your National Authority (exception being prototype aircraft operating on a design approval or aircraft flying under 'A' or 'B' flight conditions). If you can do it, it should state as such in the Flight manual/handbook. If you do not have such a book then the limitations will be printed on your certificate of airworthiness, which would include the use with the door removed. Just because another aircraft has got such an approval, even if your aircraft was its 'stable sister', your aircraft would still have to have the approval certified by your authority. Your 150/152 will have been manufactured to a Type Data sheet, if your modify your aircraft without an approved modification being sought (even if it is so simple) then you diverge from the type certificate (which requires compliance to the aircraft parts listing) and your CofA becomes invalid. (let alone your insurance as in flying an aircraft without a valid CofA). Talk to your local maintenance company to apply for a minor modification for you.

[Pilot DAR]

Hey PigDog,

Nice thinking, but C of G is not the factor to which I have attributed this phenomenon.

Wings create lift in large part by getting air moving faster over the upper surface than the lower. So, if you place something which drives air up over the wing, rather than allowing it to go straight under, more lift is created by that wing. If in doubt, have a look at the Boeing Kruger leading edge flap (B707/727) in cross section.

So open a door a bit, it blocks air going under, so it goes over, and a bit more lift is created. Left door opened drives more air up over left wing, left wing creates a bit more lift than right, so plane turns right.

Now I’m sure that there is some point where the increase in drag is so much that the whole process reverts back to what you’d expect, but the amount I’m willing to force open my 150 door without risking bending it, seems not to be too much.

A little bit of useless Cessna aerodynamics, but it makes us think, and that’s good!

Cheers, Pilot DAR

[kiwi chick]

Ami i missing something... can I ask why you want to fly a C152 with the door off?

In my very limited experience the only thing a C152 is good for (and VERY good at that!!) is training?

:confused: :confused:

[PIGDOG]

Hmmmm, interesting Pilot DAR.

My answer still makes more sense, but that's probably because I thought of it!! :p I really can't see a Cessna 150 door acting as a Kruger Flap, since you can't open it all that far.

Ok. Here's a test for either of us, whoever flies in a C150 next, ok. If you open the left door (for example) and it rolls to the right first before yawing, I'll accept your version. But if it yaws first and then rolls a little I'd bet I'm right.

Feel free to maybe explain it differently; I may have missed something. Anyone else want to give their 2p worth?

(My experience with a door open in a C150 goes back to my PPL flight test. The examiner, wanting to smoke, opened his door and jammed his foot in it to keep it open. I have to admit I don't remember which way it went, but I remember having to correct to keep it straight and level.)

[kiwi chick]

Oh my god.. the pressure.... I'm torn... I cant decide!!!!!! :uhoh: :uhoh:

[BackPacker]

My experience with a door open in a C150 goes back to my PPL flight test. The examiner, wanting to smoke, opened his door and jammed his foot in it to keep it open.

Your age is listed as 27, so it really can't be that long ago. But at the same time I can't imagine this happening in recent times.

I'm just thinking about the number of rules, both of the ANO and courtesy, that the examiner breached simultaneously. On your flight test. Or was he testing your command authority, expecting you to stop him?

[PIGDOG]

To be honest, Backpacker, I think he just wanted a smoke.

It wasn't even two years ago, and I really wasn't expecting it. Being a 'young' pilot at the time I just carried on regardless. Talking about it with a group of students afterwards and most of us agreed that I should have said something, as difficult as that would have been. (not least because I'm a non-smoker!!! :*)

As it was, I didn't, and nothing happened except that I got a bit older and a fair bit wiser (and a PPL). It also gave me the experience to comment in this thread!!! :}

Kiwi Chick! Join the dark side!!! C'mon, it's fun over here.

[kiwi chick]

:E I'm here already... you just can't see me..... :E :E :E and it IS fun...

[Leezyjet]

I've flown a C172 with the passenger door off, and it made no difference that I can recall.

Only my passenger needed a clean pair of pants after doing a steep turn to the right. :E

[Pilot DAR]

Hey Kiwi Chick,

As an old friend used to say to me, it’s amazing what you can do, when you don’t know what you can’t do! And that really applies to the lowly C150. You can buy one and own it for 20 years, putting 2600 hours on it, during which time it’s value increases four fold. You can afford to fly and maintain it the whole time. You can fly it on thousands of mile trips, you can land it on a beach, or the frozen surface of a lake, you can loop and roll it. You can carry two bikes in the back, your wife in the front, and go to the Bahamas (from Canada) eh, and…. You can take one door off (with the required approval), because it’s so nice to stick your elbow and knee out, and feel at one with the sky on a smooth evening flight.

Pilot’s will always try to learn the next thing they can do in a plane. The trick is to figure out what’s safe, and what’s not, before someone gets hurt. Then, approve the safe things, and warn against the unsafe.

It’s all about learning and trying new things, but safely. That’s why I write here, to let people know what I’ve found is good and bad about flying, and how to keep it safe. I’m still learning. Last week I went first solo for the second time, after having done it the first time in a brand new C 152 (the first in Canada) more than 30 years ago. Every time someone gives you the next rating or license, It’s your opportunity to learn more. Another PPruner, a fresh CPL Multi IFR graduate recently asked to go flying with me. When we landed, she told me that had learned a lot. One of the things she learned was how much fun a 150 is with the door off! She told me that she had never even imagined doing that! I was happy to have helped her learn something new safely.

Safely on the dark side, and loving it, Pilot DAR

[kiwi chick]

Hey Pilot DAR!

don't get me wrong, I love the little C152... it got me from nappies to training pants.

I just wondered in what context he was asking? Its not really the kind of plane that you'd work, ie photography or skydiving?! Well, not over here anyway, lol!

I've done all my work in a PA28 with the door off, and the only sentiment I've thus far felt is F:mad:K it's cold!!!

Will try flying it one mid summer's night... tho being in the left hand seat, it might be a little hard to dangle my foot out in the breeze :hmm:

On the Dark Side, not sure about the safe thing, and Loving It!

Kiwi Chick :ok:

[Pilot DAR]

Hey Kiwi Chick,

I know cold. My 150 lives at home, and as I am also a volunteer firefighter, I take it regularly on searches and fire observation. We get a lot of foolish people in trouble out on the nearby lake, in both it’s liquid, and frozen state, and the winter searches for them, with the door off, can be cool (sometimes I wimp out, and leave it on). An insulated floater coverall suit is a minimum!

As it is volunteer, the plane flies for free, but I do think of it as “working” for the public good. For the last 17 years, it has had a 100% dispatch reliability for these missions, which are usually once or so a month, but have been two a day sometimes. It does not charge as a photo or parachuting platform either, but is experienced in this too.

I quite like the PA 28 series, and have hundreds of hours in many of their models. But landing on a winter night, on a narrow, icy runway, with snowbanks on either side, I’d rather be in the 150!

What a beautiful place the land of Z is, I wish I’d been able to fly when I was there….

Cheers, Pilot DAR

[PIGDOG]

Hey guys, (Ms. Kiwi lady and Mr. pilot DAR)

I think you read into my dark side comment a bit too much! I just meant because she was undecided about what effect the opening of a door in a C150 would have, that she should agree with me, ie. join the dark side!! I wasn't talking about flying with the door off completely, as much fun as I can imagine that would be.

Wrap up well people.

Piggy.

[Dan Winterland]

A 150 doesn't fly that well with the doors on, so I don't see why removing them should improve the handling! :ok:

[kiwi chick]

LOL, Pigdog, I knew what you meant! :ok:

[Phil Space]

I did my helicopter licence on an R22 in Western Australia and never once flew with the doors on because of the extreme heat. As far as I can see a 152 is no different with the doors of.

Airborne housekeeping is a different matter. Maps and plans have to be sat on or they quickly departs:eek:

[Pilot DAR]

Hey Phil,

A lot of my time in the Schweizer 300 is also doors off.

The difference between the R22 doors off, and a Cessna doors off, is the R22 flight manual manual probably says that doors off is okay, and maybe provides changed limitations for that operation.

I assure you that the 152 flight manual makes no reference to intentional doors off flight, thus it is very likely NOT approved (or just take my word for it), and your authorities and insurance company take a really dim view of non approved flight testing.

By the way PigDog, open the door in flight, th eplane gently rolls to the opposite direction, something like a nicely co-ordinated turn. Did it today a few times.

Cheers, Pilot DAR

[ChrisVJ]

Whether you should or whether it will fly well is one thing, but when I was learning at Kidlington forty two years ago I was told that all aircraft must be able to fly with all openable doors and hatches removed.

[Pilot DAR]

North American design standards do not require demostration of safe flight with doors opened or removed. Indeed, some aircraft depend to some degree on doors being properly closed to supplement their structure.

The fact that a characteristic might be tested for, or demonstrated during certification test flight, does not automatically make at approved for general operations.

For example, all FAR Part 23, and CAR 3 aircraft would have demonstrated the ability to be safely spun and recovered, but that does not mean that they would be spin approved. Some aircraft which have been safely spun during design approval flight testing are spin prohibited in service.

If the flight manual does not say you can do it, you should not try, unless you've made application for a design change to permit it.

Pilot DAR

[Fright Level]

The POH should have a comment about this. The 172 one certainly does (says it's OK to remove pax door but all occupants must wear a seatbelt).

[PIGDOG]

Thanks for trying that, pilot DAR.

There's nothing more satisfying than proving or disproving a theory by working it a few times. Thanks again for making me think, and teaching me something new.

Piggy

[kiwi chick]

Airborne housekeeping is a different matter. Maps and plans have to be sat on or they quickly departs

:} too true!! thats why i quickly invested in some flyin overalls - pockets for everything... including my lip gloss... :ok:

[BristolScout]

A mate of mine used to instruct on C152 at the Flying Academy in Saudi. The fleet manager had the user-friendly idea of removing the doors to make the aircraft less like sweat boxes in high summer. He duly flew the first modified example - and the back window popped out.

[kiwi chick]

Crikey!!! :eek::eek::eek:

Did it do any damage to the tail? Then it would fly like some of the Fletchers over here have been ... :rolleyes:

[Phil Space]

It is worth mentioning that in some parts of the world doors cannot be closed until take off. eg very hot climates.

I have a friend who flew a 182 for 20 years in Africa with one door off(filming)
and often no doors!!