will c152 fly alright with doors removed
Whether it is certified to do it is another matter.
I have been on a number of Cessnas (180K, 206) with no door, for skydiving (which is I guess what you are looking at). The 180K actually had a proper in-flight openable door, top-hinged, which not only worked well but seemed to have little/no effect on aircraft handling when it was opened. I recall there was a guy in South Africa who operated a tandem skydiving operation from a C152, can only assume both pilot and tandem master were fairly skinny and the runway at their base sloped downhill !
I have been on a number of Cessnas (180K, 206) with no door, for skydiving (which is I guess what you are looking at). The 180K actually had a proper in-flight openable door, top-hinged, which not only worked well but seemed to have little/no effect on aircraft handling when it was opened. I recall there was a guy in South Africa who operated a tandem skydiving operation from a C152, can only assume both pilot and tandem master were fairly skinny and the runway at their base sloped downhill !
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The Aerobat versions have jettisonable doors, and they are alowed to fly with the doors off. I don't know the legalities of doing so with fixed hinge types.
It flies much the same as with them on, just a bit noisier and draughtier and no change in any V speeds as I recall. If allowed, it should be in the flight manual.
It flies much the same as with them on, just a bit noisier and draughtier and no change in any V speeds as I recall. If allowed, it should be in the flight manual.
I'm sure I've seen C152 flown with doors off for photography, from Gamston. As someone said, maybe there's a bit more drag but nothing untoward, I would have thought.
I've opened the LH door in flight on a C152, just a little, but that was because the person in the RH seat farted on an industrial scale. Perhaps it was my flying.
I've opened the LH door in flight on a C152, just a little, but that was because the person in the RH seat farted on an industrial scale. Perhaps it was my flying.
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I have modification approval to fly my Cessna 150M (same airframe firewall aft as 152) with either door, but not both, removed, and it flies perfectly fine. I fly it that way most of the time in the summer. The modification approval includes removing the riveted hinge pins, and replacing them with removable pins. Removing the lower hinge to fuselage screws is a miserable task, most easily accomplished with the wing strut removed. I have even taken a parachutist up for a jump. I though that it would be a big pitch change when he got out. If I had not seen him leave, I would not have known he’d gone!
I disagree with a previous writer. It is my opinion that the Aerobat is not approved for flight with a door removed, it is approved for abandonment that way.
Having tried it during flight testing, I very much do not recommend flight of a 150/152 with both doors off. If you yaw, the air moves rapidly across the cabin and spills out the other side. All of the interior plastic panels begin thumping around (and they are expensive to replace when they come adrift) and there can be a very unpleasant blanking of the tail from the disturbed airflow.
As a person who evaluates design changes to light aircraft in accordance with Transport Canada accepted flight test plans, and having flown the 150 with both doors off, I would recommend that it does not meet the standards for handling configured that way.
Use caution flying aircraft in configurations not described in the Flight Manual, or an STC. It could be a non-approved configuration, and could affect your legality and insurance. I am aware of a “Parajumping” STC for the 150 to allow the removal of a door. Mine is approved by specific Transport Canada approval to my plane only.
If you can make it legal, pilot’s door off sure is nice though….
Oh, and by the way, try to explain to someone why slightly opening the left door in flight makes the plane turn right, not left…… There is a very logical answer when you think it through.
Cheers, Pilot DAR
I disagree with a previous writer. It is my opinion that the Aerobat is not approved for flight with a door removed, it is approved for abandonment that way.
Having tried it during flight testing, I very much do not recommend flight of a 150/152 with both doors off. If you yaw, the air moves rapidly across the cabin and spills out the other side. All of the interior plastic panels begin thumping around (and they are expensive to replace when they come adrift) and there can be a very unpleasant blanking of the tail from the disturbed airflow.
As a person who evaluates design changes to light aircraft in accordance with Transport Canada accepted flight test plans, and having flown the 150 with both doors off, I would recommend that it does not meet the standards for handling configured that way.
Use caution flying aircraft in configurations not described in the Flight Manual, or an STC. It could be a non-approved configuration, and could affect your legality and insurance. I am aware of a “Parajumping” STC for the 150 to allow the removal of a door. Mine is approved by specific Transport Canada approval to my plane only.
If you can make it legal, pilot’s door off sure is nice though….
Oh, and by the way, try to explain to someone why slightly opening the left door in flight makes the plane turn right, not left…… There is a very logical answer when you think it through.
Cheers, Pilot DAR
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Doors to steering mode
Many years ago I learnt on C152s and throughly enjoyed flying them around with the windows open so can quite imagine that in the summer having one door off must be lovely.
Also learning in a Cherokee 140 with a single door I remember 'experiencing' alternative methods of controling the a/c by usiing the single door to yaw and the throttle to climb/decend - quite what would likely have happened to mean that one day I may have needed to control an aircraft like that I've no idea but it was good fun!
Admitidly a few years later I did have a Pup door fly open midair passing an airfield so carried out a Pan as we couldn't secure it shut in flight. All fun and games!
Oh, and left to right etc is the same reason when you blow between two pieces of paper they don't fly apart...
Also learning in a Cherokee 140 with a single door I remember 'experiencing' alternative methods of controling the a/c by usiing the single door to yaw and the throttle to climb/decend - quite what would likely have happened to mean that one day I may have needed to control an aircraft like that I've no idea but it was good fun!
Admitidly a few years later I did have a Pup door fly open midair passing an airfield so carried out a Pan as we couldn't secure it shut in flight. All fun and games!
Oh, and left to right etc is the same reason when you blow between two pieces of paper they don't fly apart...
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I would have thought that opening either door in a 150 would have caused it to yaw in the direction of the open door, ie left door, yaw to the left.
That was until Pilot DAR made me think. Thanks for that
Now, after thinking it through, I can only presume that it's because the door is ahead of the centre of gravity. Just as the rudder is behind the CofG, a left deflection means the tail is effectively pushed to the right. Since the door is ahead of the CofG (albeit not nearly as far foreward as the rudder is back) the nose is effectively pushed to the right (assuming the left door is opened)
Am I right? Any other theories, or suggestions?
That was until Pilot DAR made me think. Thanks for that
Now, after thinking it through, I can only presume that it's because the door is ahead of the centre of gravity. Just as the rudder is behind the CofG, a left deflection means the tail is effectively pushed to the right. Since the door is ahead of the CofG (albeit not nearly as far foreward as the rudder is back) the nose is effectively pushed to the right (assuming the left door is opened)
Am I right? Any other theories, or suggestions?
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You must remember that if you modify an aircraft in any way a modification approval must be sought from your National Authority (exception being prototype aircraft operating on a design approval or aircraft flying under 'A' or 'B' flight conditions). If you can do it, it should state as such in the Flight manual/handbook. If you do not have such a book then the limitations will be printed on your certificate of airworthiness, which would include the use with the door removed. Just because another aircraft has got such an approval, even if your aircraft was its 'stable sister', your aircraft would still have to have the approval certified by your authority. Your 150/152 will have been manufactured to a Type Data sheet, if your modify your aircraft without an approved modification being sought (even if it is so simple) then you diverge from the type certificate (which requires compliance to the aircraft parts listing) and your CofA becomes invalid. (let alone your insurance as in flying an aircraft without a valid CofA). Talk to your local maintenance company to apply for a minor modification for you.
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Hey PigDog,
Nice thinking, but C of G is not the factor to which I have attributed this phenomenon.
Wings create lift in large part by getting air moving faster over the upper surface than the lower. So, if you place something which drives air up over the wing, rather than allowing it to go straight under, more lift is created by that wing. If in doubt, have a look at the Boeing Kruger leading edge flap (B707/727) in cross section.
So open a door a bit, it blocks air going under, so it goes over, and a bit more lift is created. Left door opened drives more air up over left wing, left wing creates a bit more lift than right, so plane turns right.
Now I’m sure that there is some point where the increase in drag is so much that the whole process reverts back to what you’d expect, but the amount I’m willing to force open my 150 door without risking bending it, seems not to be too much.
A little bit of useless Cessna aerodynamics, but it makes us think, and that’s good!
Cheers, Pilot DAR
Nice thinking, but C of G is not the factor to which I have attributed this phenomenon.
Wings create lift in large part by getting air moving faster over the upper surface than the lower. So, if you place something which drives air up over the wing, rather than allowing it to go straight under, more lift is created by that wing. If in doubt, have a look at the Boeing Kruger leading edge flap (B707/727) in cross section.
So open a door a bit, it blocks air going under, so it goes over, and a bit more lift is created. Left door opened drives more air up over left wing, left wing creates a bit more lift than right, so plane turns right.
Now I’m sure that there is some point where the increase in drag is so much that the whole process reverts back to what you’d expect, but the amount I’m willing to force open my 150 door without risking bending it, seems not to be too much.
A little bit of useless Cessna aerodynamics, but it makes us think, and that’s good!
Cheers, Pilot DAR
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Ami i missing something... can I ask why you want to fly a C152 with the door off?
In my very limited experience the only thing a C152 is good for (and VERY good at that!!) is training?
In my very limited experience the only thing a C152 is good for (and VERY good at that!!) is training?
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Hmmmm, interesting Pilot DAR.
My answer still makes more sense, but that's probably because I thought of it!!
I really can't see a Cessna 150 door acting as a Kruger Flap, since you can't open it all that far.
Ok. Here's a test for either of us, whoever flies in a C150 next, ok. If you open the left door (for example) and it rolls to the right first before yawing, I'll accept your version. But if it yaws first and then rolls a little I'd bet I'm right.
Feel free to maybe explain it differently; I may have missed something. Anyone else want to give their 2p worth?
(My experience with a door open in a C150 goes back to my PPL flight test. The examiner, wanting to smoke, opened his door and jammed his foot in it to keep it open. I have to admit I don't remember which way it went, but I remember having to correct to keep it straight and level.)
My answer still makes more sense, but that's probably because I thought of it!!
I really can't see a Cessna 150 door acting as a Kruger Flap, since you can't open it all that far.Ok. Here's a test for either of us, whoever flies in a C150 next, ok. If you open the left door (for example) and it rolls to the right first before yawing, I'll accept your version. But if it yaws first and then rolls a little I'd bet I'm right.
Feel free to maybe explain it differently; I may have missed something. Anyone else want to give their 2p worth?
(My experience with a door open in a C150 goes back to my PPL flight test. The examiner, wanting to smoke, opened his door and jammed his foot in it to keep it open. I have to admit I don't remember which way it went, but I remember having to correct to keep it straight and level.)
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My experience with a door open in a C150 goes back to my PPL flight test. The examiner, wanting to smoke, opened his door and jammed his foot in it to keep it open.
I'm just thinking about the number of rules, both of the ANO and courtesy, that the examiner breached simultaneously. On your flight test. Or was he testing your command authority, expecting you to stop him?
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To be honest, Backpacker, I think he just wanted a smoke.
It wasn't even two years ago, and I really wasn't expecting it. Being a 'young' pilot at the time I just carried on regardless. Talking about it with a group of students afterwards and most of us agreed that I should have said something, as difficult as that would have been. (not least because I'm a non-smoker!!!
)
As it was, I didn't, and nothing happened except that I got a bit older and a fair bit wiser (and a PPL). It also gave me the experience to comment in this thread!!!
Kiwi Chick! Join the dark side!!! C'mon, it's fun over here.
It wasn't even two years ago, and I really wasn't expecting it. Being a 'young' pilot at the time I just carried on regardless. Talking about it with a group of students afterwards and most of us agreed that I should have said something, as difficult as that would have been. (not least because I'm a non-smoker!!!
)As it was, I didn't, and nothing happened except that I got a bit older and a fair bit wiser (and a PPL). It also gave me the experience to comment in this thread!!!
Kiwi Chick! Join the dark side!!! C'mon, it's fun over here.
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I've flown a C172 with the passenger door off, and it made no difference that I can recall.
Only my passenger needed a clean pair of pants after doing a steep turn to the right.
Only my passenger needed a clean pair of pants after doing a steep turn to the right.