CABAIR : Sponsored FI course

[VNA Lotus]

Hello!

I noticed that Cabair offers this course to become a PPL FI in their PPL school.

With many advantages like a fixed paid I guess...

What do you think about it ? do they need instructors too, I mean the FTO ?

I'm french and I'll get a french CPL/IR but I would be deligthed to become FI in UK (in France is terrible...you're not even paid...) and I'll improve my english by the same time.

well it seems interesting but I do not know the price of this course.

thanks a lot

[porridge]

From what I hear they may be offering it, but they are so desperately short of instructors that they do not have the resources to deliver the FI course anyway!
I was told by another person who tried to get the sponsorship that he tried in vain to speak to someone about it at Cabair, but got nowhere. He then came to me to do his FI course and pay for it himself.
If you have any success - let the rest of us know!

[VNA Lotus]

that's look bad...

The problem I see is the pay is crap.
Of course they pay (they say that) the course but I wonder how can we live in UK with 1000£, that's a joke ? ( we all know life is the most expensive in UK in europe :})
but if it is really true their course sponsorship, it is a great idea anyway.

[IL VATE]

I managed to speak to them after many attempts...they basically bond you for 10000 pounds for tow years, and they pay you 1000 pounds a month, but if you want to leave them before you have to pay the all lot, even if you have just one month to go!
I'm starting thinking that the famous desperate short of FI is not that true......why the schools don’t come up with something better than this if they need us?
I mean just a cheaper course, they could just break the even and keep you with them for as long as possible…..maybe paying you enough to survive..
It looks like they just need more costumers….for the FI too.

[Parson]

I tried to contact then for more info and got no response - says it all

[RVR800]

I was going to contact them but it appears to be unneccessary now

Thanks Guys (saved me a phone call)

[VFE]

The guy you need to speak to regarding this is always a busy man. The staff who field your call to said man are always busy staff. They obviously are not that desperate for instructors or perhaps this scheme is not so rosy for them? Come to think of it, if the above info is true - it ain't so rosy for the instructor either! £1000/month pre-tax when instructing (and living) in the London area is pants.

You'd be better off doing the cheapest FIC you can find (usually abroad) and then approaching Cabair to instruct weekends whilst working a proper paying full-time job during the week. If Cabair are that desperate they'll bite your hand off and probably start offering you sweeteners to work during the week too at which point you can start taking them seriously without chaining yourself to a two year and £10k bond.

Anyone considering being bonded for FI work needs their bumps felt - at best you'll starve in winter and at worst you'll be £10k in debt when you have to pull out to get proper work. When you could've got your FI ticket for less than £6k that will irk you somewhat if yer ask me...

VFE.

[expedite08]

Bearing in mind they stump up for your IR FI MCC and JOC its a great deal.

whats wrong with people. I would much rather be bonded for two years than have 60k over about 10 or 15 years to pay off!! with no gurantee of a job offer!

[VFE]

Where'd ya hear that expedite??

VFE.

[Pick me Flybe!]

chaps

I beleive that the person to speak to is Derek Edwards based at elstree? I guess he will give you info on the sponsored route. For those of you that said you phone with little success, why dont you drive down there and take your cv with you?

Secondly. If you join cabair with your instructors ticket in your hand you get

1)1000 paid into your bank at the end of every month. Based on the first 20 hours of flying for that month
2)On top of that any dual hours flown after are paid at £25 per flight hour
3)£10 per solo sign off per hour
4)£10 per ferry flight per hour
5) Groundschool I think is paid at a rate of £3 per student or £15 whichever is greater

[Pick me Flybe!]

forgot to mention

If you need any info on the sponsored route. go to www.cabair.com (http://www.cabair.com) then click on the career pilot link. When you do that there is a big link inthe middle of the screen that takes you to the sponsored fi page showing terms and conditions etc etc etc

[VFE]

Pick me Flybe!
Only staff who have been there for some time get offered the £1000/month deal as they become 'Senior FI's'. Unless you are a senior FI with Cabair you will get £20/hr for instructional flights and that's it. The ferry flights are quite common and indeed you get £10/hr for those and any groundschool.

What they don't tell you when you start is that you work a month in lieu for the first month without any pay. All very well if you're ****ting money but not so good if you've moved down to the smoke, living in digs and on a hand to mouth basis.

I would seriously consider whether you wish to get bonded for 2 years regardless of what they offer to pay for. expedite08 reckons you get the IR, MCC and JOC thrown in too but I think he's seriously confused with another offer.

Best advice (other than my own ;) ) is to go down there and see them - then you will see the operation and may even meet Mr.Edwards.

VFE.

[Pick me Flybe!]

Expedite08 is correect with what he is saying. There are 3 different levels of sponsorship available to the wudbe instructor, and that depends on what flight tickets you already have.

1 Holder of Jaa CPL. you pay 10k cabair pay 10k
training received FIC, IR, MCC, JOC
Bonded for 18 months or 1000 hours whichever soonest on a non decreasing bon arrangement.

2 Holder of a Jaa CPL You pay 5k cabair pay 15k
All of the above except you are bonded for 2 years

3Holder of a jaa cpl and IR
Cabair pay for your FIC course, and they also provide IR and MEP revals and MCC
Bonded for 2 years or 1500 hours whichever soonest

Also, VFE i have heard from an extremely reliable source that the pay as i have mentioned in my previous thred is accurate.

Plus. you mentioned that you have to work a month in hand? Whats the problem there, even if you get a job at tescos you have to work a month in hand. Thats what salary jobs are all about. If you were able to do about 45/50 hours a month it would make cabair one of the best ppl instructor payers out there! Plus excellent prospects if you stuck around, like cpl and ir instruction

If you have a look at the cabair website there is a link to their instructor sponsorship page

[VFE]

You work a month in hand and then another month before pay day. Effectively 2 months without pay. Sorry if I mislead you with my posting.

The deals are good for those without access to fundage and with no other option available to them. But be warned - they make you work for your money behind the desk in ops! You get shat on from a great height on a daily basis so your tenacity will be tested.... not to mention the determination required for passing the exams anyway. Not easy.

VFE.

[porridge]

Still they have to find an FIC Instructor/s with the availability to do the course. The last guy they had lined up at Elstree to do that left for a far better job and salary.
Chances are you'll starve before you get the ticket anyway at the rate Cabair can train instructors at the moment as the majority of their instructors are working their proverbials off trying to reduce the back-log of 4500 hours on approved courses if they don't count people in ground school and then it would be closer to 6000hrs!! (some of the Commercial Instructors have as many as 12 students allocated to them - CAA allows only 4 per instructor).
Go figure why they are reluctant to return calls - sponsorship is fine, but if you don't have the staff to carry it to conclusion it isn't going to happen!

[Arfur Feck-Sake]

I've phoned them several times and have been given the brush-off by some very disinterested people. I'm an experienced FI, I can't get the info I want and they told me they're not interested in part-timers. They definitely don't give the impression of being short of instructors. Their arrogance might bite them.

[VFE]

Their arrogance might bite them.

Peeps have bin sayin' that fer years.... one day my friends... one day. ;)

VFE.

[negativeROC]

I once called them looking to do a CPL/ME/IR and got no response. I now teach CPL/ME/IR. I learned a valuable lesson from just one non-returned phone call.........Your first instinct should not be disregarded lightly. -VE ROC

[expedite08]

Well, has anyone heard anything about this elusive scheme.

Its been very heavily marketed. Is it possible they are purely just marketing it at the moment and looking at people in the near future???

[AlphaMale]

Thought I'd post a direct link as people seem confused here.

Cabair Sponsored - FI (http://www.cabair.com/careerpilot/sponsored-FI.pdf)

I did ask in another thread what these 'low paid' FI jobs are actually taking home? nobody replied last time.

It's a £1,000 NET pay ... So I'm thinking £15k per year for doing the 20hrs per month.

And then the £25 per flight hour after
£10 per solo sign off per hour
£10 per ferry flight per hour
£3 per student or £15 whichever is greater for groundschool.

I don't think this is a bad rate of pay to live off, but then I live in South Wales.

By working for Cabair for 18 months and gaining the FIC, IR, MCC, JOC through them (and probably my CPL before applying) wouldn't this put me in a very good position for a RHS with an airline?

Looking at paying the £10k and doing 18 months work myself, Am I correct in thinking they would pay off the £10k debt (from their half) after the 18 months is complete? :hmm:

Surley the cost of doing the FIC (£6k), IR (£10k), MCC (£3k) & JOC (£2.5K) with a school like OAT / Cabair is going to amount to nearly £22k and you have a guaranteed job at the end with the marketing ploy of 'We have contacts with BA / Flybe etc'.

Doesn't sound all that bad to me? ... It might start my flying career off quicker than I thought too. :D

[expedite08]

It is a cracking scheme. Ive never known Cabair to be so quiet though! If your interested in one of their courses they normally bite your arm off! Very spooky if you ask me.
Ive got two theories, they are either purely just marketing it at the moment...
or... Someone had a bright idea on a rainy day ( hhmm how about an Instructor Sponsorship) and has had a fair size bollocking for putting it in to nearly every aviation related media, thus they are keeping thier mouths shut hoping it will go away like a bad smell never to be mentioned again!
What do we think ?

[porridge]

I think it is because it they are so short of instructors they are using the FIC people to do integrated training. Talk is there are 3 people doing the course at Cranfield, but they are not flying due to this.
Also heard a couple of resignations happened very recently due to some very interesting operational procedures, one of which was reported to the lads at the big grey building somewhere in Sussex!

[expedite08]

Guess time will tell. If there are three people on the course already and not flying what are they doing? maybe they have got a little too ambitious with this.

I wonder if they have been hit hard with applications for the scheme. its a shame because the idea behind it is excellent. the old adage applies I think

If it seems too good to be true, then it is! never mind

[AlphaMale]

Back to Plan A for me then. Plan B (this) would get me in the air quicker but so so. :bored:

[Parson]

Well I have applied and await interview so will give them the benefit of the doubt for the time being.....

[Kanu]

It seems like a good deal for peeps with nothing, but for people with all the qualifications already there seems to be little incentive?

15K inc first 20 hours is probably one of the higher salaries in the country but its nothing compared to getting 40-50K worth of training for 10 grand plus 2 years work.:eek:

[Kanu]

disregard above - just worked out the hourly stuff too. It's not all that bad really:O

[AlphaMale]

You get the below if you have a JAR CPL and you pay £10k

FIC (~£6k)
IR (~£10k)
MCC (~£3k)
JOC (~£2.5K)

Doesn't add up to £40k/£50k though :confused:

Or do Cabair actually charge up to £50k just for the above? :ooh:

[Kanu]

I was going more along the lines of intergrated prices which would include the cpl and groundschool - in short my post was bollocks:O. Either way - you appear to get more if you do the training with them rather than go to them with the FI rating. I suppose it depends on how many hours you'll do each month. 63 last month, would have given me an extra grand.... That would have been nice:8

[expedite08]

Probably!! :E

Then again its still good and saves you money! Im going to give it to the end of the month and then start chasing them up again. Persistance pays off in this game I think. :ok:

[cessna310]

Hi,
Who applied for FI spo?When r u going to start?



Regards,
Cessna310.

[T-21]

I had 2 interviews with them for a job and guess what !! no answer. Not impressed !!

[AlphaMale]

Does anybody know of any another school offering a similar FI/IR/MCC Sponsorship? even a FI/IR or CPL/IR/FI could be good? :confused:

[sam34]

" I had 2 interviews with them for a job and guess what !! no answer. Not impressed !! "

Tss... well they are not serious and polite. (I hope they're reading me).
Tell yourself : you deserve more. ;)

[pablo]

Hi!

I'm still very impressed that this people at Cabair are short on FIs and still not take care of customers-prospective employees. Well... maybe I should not be so impressed, 'cos if I recall correctly... Cabair had an agreement with Airmed Valencia (nice bunch to be customer of, and let's not talk about working for them).

As I'm around 1 month to finish my FI, does anyone know if they're interested in "external" FI(R), terms and conditions, and what's the working atmosphere like over there? (No sponsorship, I already have the MCC, IR, ME and all the stuff).

Thanks in advance.

Regards / Pablo

[T-21]

Thanks Sam34 for your kind comments,but as to working in the aviation industry if this is how they treat people they can get stuffed .

[Pick me Flybe!]

T21

Does that mean that if cabair phoned tomorrow with 10k of sponsorship you would tell them your no longer interested?? Probably not i expect. :=

As oppossed to bangin on about how you havent heard anything, why not go and get in your car and drive there with an undated cv and tell them how interested you still are.

I aint been in this game very long but one thing i do know is that you have to do all the chasing! Whether its an airline or FIC job.

[T-21]

Mr Flybe,
3 visits there and you said i was not interested and not to mention are you picking up my petrol tab. i have been flying for a long time so don't condescend to tell me how to progress !!

[T-21]

By the way Mr Flybe,these companies should learn a few basic manners and have the decency to reply ,sadly lacking today. Rollon the over 50's rebellion cause its fast approaching cause were are all p***ed off with the way we get treated. Get some life experience before snide remarks to instructors who have worked bloody hard to get where they are now .

[porridge]

Nothing much has changed since the old days of Messrs Greed & Thiefcoate. Still the same old leopard of course. After all wasn't it good old Steve who put the "S" in Cabair?

[Pick me Flybe!]

T21

ok, , fair do's gov, quite :O now. 2500 hours as an instructor, should of checked your profile.

Apololgies aside now, the bottom line is that whether or not cabairs people skills are good or bad, the opportunity as an instructor there is quite good.

1000 in the bank for your first 20 hours, then £25 per hour hour after.

So if you did 50 hours a month (very realistic), by my reckoning is about £1500 in the bank at the end of the month. Then any groundschool in the evenings and ferry flights on days off?

Sorry if i pissed you off, but if i knew i could get that kind of loot as a ppl instructor id be doing whatever it took to work for them. :O:O:O:O:O

[expedite08]

I think it will be sod all in the bank to be honest as they cant seem to be arsed to pull thier finger out and get the scheme running!

[T-21]

Mr Flybe,
Thanks for your apology, I am staying in IT support as i am frustrated with the way flying instructors are looked after(crap) in terms of salary and respect. It is a very responsible teaching and supervisory job and should be rewarded accordingly. I doubt if it will ever change but as to basic manners in the industry some of these outfits need mystery shopper visits. I do wish you well with any airline position, i am taking a sabbatical from it and although i miss the flying i don't miss all the currency checks and weather hassles is it flyable yes/no !

[AlphaMale]

Flybe,

Am I thinking if I did my PPL/Night/MEP/Hour Building ASAP and got my ATPL exams out of the way I'd stand any chance of getting on this sponsorship?

As you said, financially £1,500+ a month isn't bad to live off and totting up the hours with a highly respected FTO.

I don't want to shoot myself in the foot by getting as far as my ATPL exams then running out of cash to do my CPL/IR/FI/MCC :(

I'll quite happily hunt Cabair for this sponsorship next year but I need to know if there is any chance of it going ahead too.

Feel free to PM me any details.

Thanks

Andrew

[GgW]

SO did this Flight instructor sponsorship scheme get of the ground , has any one been interviewed for it ??

[expedite08]

Looks very much like that! What a con. I have heard so much bad press about Cabair, lack of instructors etc. They just keep making life harder for themselves!

[Rob's Dad]

Maybe I'm just being naive, by why not call them rather than speculate? Being caustic about the company is not really going to endear you to them and I understand that existing FIs are being interviewed with everyone else likely to follow in the next couple of weeks.

[cessna310]

Hi,
Has anyone got reply from them?
Regards,
cessna310

[expedite08]

Not a sniff, thier loss!

[expedite08]

Hmm,
Well I think an update is due on this elusive scheme. Having just looked at the Cabair site an clicked on the Instructor Sponsorship scheme a dialogue box appears saying the course is over subscribed!!! Well Seeing as nobody has heard a sniff, who have they recruited???????????
This gets more interesting.............. And so, the mystery still contunues.......... Until next time

[Parson]

Shortlisted candidates are being interviewed and the course starts early next year.

[captainjohno]

Just a thought guys:-cabair are currently in the process of moving their offices into new buildings at cranfield. they are currently operating in portacabins so you could imagine the turmoil of moving premises whilst 'maintaining' flight operations. do not be 'put off' by the lack of responses from cabair, although T-21 is correct that they should have the common courtesy to respond to our correspondance, you have got to chase after these schemes otherwise you are not going to get a sniff of an interview.

[jakjakjak]

My first post on pprune.... here goes:

I Have frozen ATPL's which I acquired in September 2007...So I started job hunting like made and like most, found it harder than I had anticipated! Airline jobs that were available seemed to be ones where you fund your own type... I'm a young guy with many many years (hopefully) ahead of me to walk through the cockpit door of an airbus so my goel posts changed and I found myself looking down the instructor road, and looking at the Cabair FI sponsorship. Cut the story short: I was invited for an interview early Oct 2007 at Elstree. I was told there and then that I will be accepted for the FI sponsorship - £1000 net p.m, £25 p.h after first 20hours of the month, £10 for ferry flights and upto £13 p.h for ground school. Now to get to this point I did personally hand in my CV at cranfield, and keep chasing them up untill I got the interview.

My start date is meant to be the end of January - this month at Cranfield. I am also yet to receive any form of contract or written letter to say I have been successful.

I have since my interview in October chased cabair up every two weeks via phone and visiting them personally... each time I was assure that the contract will be done at the end of the week, and the delay was due to internal confusion about who was responsible, and I was told not to worry as I have been successful.

Yesterday I called around the company to chase up the progress of my contract, and to find exact details for the start of the FI course - location, time and what would be required of me. To my surprise I found that cabair cranfield knew nothing of an FI course for the end of January, so I went back to the gentleman who conducted my interview. To my surprise I was told that the contract has now changed, and that the package was the following:

Net £1000 p.m
NO £25p.m after the first 20 hours
NO £10 p.h for ferry flight
NO extra pay for ground school
Free revalidation of my ME/IR
Free Glass cockpit conversion.

Commitments - 2 Years/1500 hours.

This as you can understand is substantially different pay without any incentive for flying over 20 hours a month..... why wasn't I told this over 3 months ago?? I happen to live on my own and I am now faced with the dilema of how do I live on £1000 p.m for the next two years? after spending over £40k to get to this possition of frozen ATPL's....

Has anyone else reading this found themselves in the same position as me with the cabair FI sponsorship?

[A Very Civil Pilot]

Depending on how you want to push it, if you we're verbally offered the better contract at interview, it should be what they are obliged to offer.

Note: this is not legal advice!! best speak to a lawyer.

[VFE]

Another lovely Cabair cock-up by the sounds of things.

I would spin on your heel if I were you jakjakajk and think yourself very lucky you saw what they are like before becoming employed by them. If your contract has not arrived yet then you will not have signed anything WILL YOU? If so, you are not duty bound to go through with anything at this stage.

Do yourself a favour and look at other options that do not include Cabair and count the wasted time since October as a lesson learnt. The GA instructing game is the same as any working environment and you need to push for the best deal FOR YOU, just as you would in any other field.

Do not be fooled by the "congratulations, you have been successful!" tactic many use when they're plainly desperate for instructors (read: mugs).

VFE.

[A Very Civil Pilot]

Can you not take it, and after 20 hours each month go somewhere else?

[r44flyer]

As above, I'd find out the details regarding this '20 hours per month' thing. It would be a monumental loophole but if there's nothing that says you must fly more than 20 hours per month as your salary is based on those hours alone, you could refuse to work any more.

[expedite08]

flying is a complete con! Im bowing out and going to get a proper job,with proper prospects,and a decent contract,with a decent wage and job security!

I will instruct part time at weekends and as I see fit on my terms!

[VFE]

Cabair forbid their instructors to instruct elsewhere whilst under their employment. You WILL be expected to do more than 20 hours per month!

Look, would you trust an employer who is not even available for you to talk with? Read jakjakjak's post again and you will see the lengths the poor guy has been to in order to check about his employment status AFTER being offered employment!

My word, how many warnings do you need in order to smell that something is not right? If you cannot detect something drastically afoot with this arrangement, especially after the terms have been altered WITHOUT even consulting the person who has been offered employment, then I question your sanity to walk the streets, nevermind fly an aeroplane! :rolleyes:

I would run now, before you get yourself into an almighty mess. No axe to grind, couldn't care less for the firm (I think this shows) but simply would hate to see someone get themselves into a bad situation.

There is an instructor shortage, if you cannot afford the FIC then seek a lender AWAY from aviation. It does not ring true that you have no way of obtaining money after forking out £40K. If you did not plan for either a type rating or FIC following training then you really did not do sufficient research into the game before you got the bread together to get where you are now.

VFE.

[waterpau]

It's a standard contract of employment, and you'll be at the airfield (irrespective of weather) from 8am to sunset, 5 days a week to include Saturday and Sunday. So even if it wasn't forbidden in the contract, you'd probably struggle to find time to instruct elsewhere. The £1,000 pcm is a salary of c. £15k, thereby being around the minimum wage (this covers their @rse for demanding you be on site 8am-SS). I believe self-sponsored guys get the £25 for >20 hours, etc., but Cabair sponsored guys don't.

I think I'm correct in saying they're the only outfit to offer sponsorship; I think they deserve some credit for getting people into paid flying jobs that might previously have not been, even if they do drape you over a barrel... Unless you've got a wife and kids, Cabair's inferior offer has got to be better than nothing, and another 2 years in a job you gave up because you wanted to fly.

[VFE]

Have you worked for them Waterpau?

VFE.

[jakjakjak]

I received a contact yesterday, over 3 months since I had the interview where i was verbally offered a sponsorship. The contract was the revised packaged, with a bond for FI of over £16,350.... I was told at interview that the bond will be in the region of £8000 - £10,000.

I will let you pass judgment.

[VFE]

Pure comedy.

VFE.

[TheOddOne]

The contract was the revised packaged, with a bond for FI of over £16,350....

How can a bond POSSIBLY be for more than the value of the course they're providing? I can only assume that they aren't aware that you've already got the fATPL. If I were you, as has been said already, I'd get the £7k together for the FIC and do it elsewhere, then offer yourself to Cabair (or anywhere else for that matter) as a FI(R) with no strings attached.

There is one advantage, I guess, in doing the FIC with Cabiar, in that you become familiar with the Company way of doing things, instructing-wise.

Cheers,
TheOddOne

[BlueRobin]

Yes, do it at Ontrack Wellesbourne for 6700 and you will be training using aeroplanes owned by Cabair. The ultimate irony?

[expedite08]

As I say its all a con, go and get proper jobs!

[noblues]

I was a 'slave unto Cabair' some 12+ yrs ago on one of their so called 'sponsorships' ... I'm now a 747-400 Captain ....

I too remember pondering 'shall I .. shall I not' to accept a rediculous contract from them, and starvation wages etc and quit a well paid IT job at the time ...

You will have fun at the Cabair schools (apart from Elstree .. like being at the Headmasters study all day!) .. great comarade amongst all the instructors .. the directors will treat you like utter dirt, but you are all in it together ... and the school CFI's and ops staff whom you work with day to day are generally nice people ...

For all Cabairs faults they have schools in prime London locations, you will get a lot of hours quickly on well maintanined a/c ... use it as a stepping stone like many have done before ...

Good luck ... and most of all, enjoy it!

[cessna310]

Hi,
Anyone started FI course who r selected for this course?any info please.

Regards,
cessna310

[Nearly There]

Can anyone feedback on the selection for this, whats involved in the group and individual interviews? Any tech questions etc..

Thanks
NT