Deadheading Priority? (Pilots verse Flight Attendants)

[Johnny767]

I would appreciate a little feedback....

We at Air Canada, have a little squabble between the F/A's and the Pilots, with respect to being upgraded to Business Class, while Deadheading.

I'm interested in European, Asian, US, Middle East Airlines policy, with respect to who (?) Deadheads in Business Class verse Economy Class.

The history on the fight is at Air Canada Captains Deadheaded in Business Class and the F/O, Relief Pilot and all the Cabin Crew got upgraded to Business, based on Service Date with the Airline. As such, you could have the Captain, and every F/A, in Business Class with the F/O and R/P in Economy.

This was recently changed, now all Pilots get Business Class, before any F/A, while Deadheading on Company Business.

I'm intested if there are any carriers, worldwide, that would put a F/A in Business (First Class) over a Pilot.

Thanks in advance.

[parabellum]

In SIA, on the pax fleet, cabin crew only deadhead in economy, no upgrade offered or allowed.
Captains are booked firm in economy but may be upgraded to First class, likewise FOs if they are deadheading. Staff travel different set of rules, only Capts may buy or be upgraded to First unless FO was employed prior to 1986, then he is on same deal as captains.

Forgot to mention: Other airlines, Captains F or J class, FOs and CC economy.
Always asked for FO to be upgraded but if not possible would then sit with FO. Usually short-haul within Europe/USA.

[TE RANGI]

At Spanair pilots do get confirmed business class (sans the use of airport lounges) on deadhead flights in house, while FAs get confirmed economy and often upgraded. All regardless of seniority.

Not that our C Class is very fancy though. (Our Y is downright "low cost" style).

Deadhead with other airlines is usually Y, unless certain criteria with regard to trip length, duty hours, etc are met and then it's C Class (always confirmed booking).

[Johnny767]

Thanks very much. I'm hoping to hear from a variety of different Carriers.

Our (Air Canada) F/A's believe they should be upgraded to Business Class ahead of F/O's and RP's, if they have more Seniority.

It is an old clause that dates back to the stone-age of the Airline being Government owned.

"Company Seniority" trumps "Command Authority."

They are getting a small dose of reality.

My gut feeling is, there is not an Airline (anywhere) that would upgrade a F/A, ahead of a Pilot.

Deadheading on Company business.

Please keep them coming.....

[Bamse01]

My gut feeling is, there is not an Airline (anywhere) that would upgrade a F/A, ahead of a Pilot.

Deadheading on Company business.

American Airlines will.
Company policy is first come first serve, regardless of seniority or position.

[BelArgUSA]

I have to deadhead, or position occasionally, as a 747 captain, either with my own airline, or with other air carriers... Deaheading on our own airline is never a problem, we get F or J seats when available.
xxx
If I am just with my cockpit crew, F/O and F/E with me, the 3 of us are often offered F or J class seats with other airlines... If with an entire cabin crew, there are 11 F/As with us, they often end to have to sit in economy class...
xxx
My personal policy... I will, as a captain, sit with my F/O and my F/E if they are not offered a F or J seat, on other airlines. I decline a F or J seat with a smile to these airlines, to stay with my cockpit crew.
xxx
What I noticed, is that USA and European airlines are not liberal with their premium seats for us "third world" aircrews. On my own flights, anywhere, I always offer premium seats to crews from other airlines, particularly to cockpit crews to show our hospitality.
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

[Tight Slot]

Length of service should mean squat on these upgrades/class. Imagine me being in 1st as a poor but long service F/O being in a nice bed at the front whilst the new in company DFO sits in the back....

Not gonna work in my eyes. Flight crew as RANK should get the priority. If CSD's want to be ahead of F/O's in the command chain, maybe they could offer some help when the skipper dies mid Atlantic, an engine fails, rapid depress.... So then Dorris, what shall we do (Sir/Madam..)

Rant over

[Semaphore Sam]

A very senior Saudi Captain (Saudia) was deadheaded in economy, while a VIP F/A (also deadheading) was upgraded to First. He complained; the Prince (or whatever piece of crap VIP he was) punished the Captain for complaining (he was senior to the f/a by 20 years, but she had...wasda). It happened/happens on Saudia, FOR SURE.
He was my very competent IP for initial line training on the 747 classic, and at the time, was a senior 400 Captain. Sam.

[parabellum]

How do you mean 'punished'? I wouldn't take that crap in his senior position, yes I have worked in the Middle East.

[Johnny767]

Sounds like a case of "on-board upgrading," happens all the time. The F/A's look after their own and 'leave a wet-spot' when they can do it at the expense of a Pilot.

[411A]

If I was in a position of authority at an airline where the CC complained about deadhead policy regarding rank, they would be shown the door without delay, and told not to let it hit their backside on the way out.
CC...dime a dozen, whereas FD crew, especially now with the job market tight and training costs high, get the nod, hands down.

F/A's can't really be serious...lets look at the facts.
Skirts (and skirted boys) can be hired in a flash, given minimal training, paid very little, and put to work.

FD crew, OTOH, must have training and experience in their profession, a license and medical, and the aptitude to actually fly the aeroplane, long before they are considered for a position.


So, trolly dollies, like it or lump it....nobody cares, you get the low rung on the ladder, by default.

[Johnny767]

If CSD's want to be ahead of F/O's in the command chain, maybe they could offer some help when the skipper dies mid Atlantic, an engine fails, rapid depress.... So then Dorris, what shall we do (Sir/Madam..)

...Some things don't change, world-wide.

F/A's (twisted minds) think they are Professional Equals to Pilots.

Here in Canada, the F/A's have a "Pay of Equal Value" (reference the Pilots) case in front of a government agency.

This Deadheading issue is all part of the same mentality.

[411A]

F/A's (twisted minds) think they are Professional Equals to Pilots.


I have no doubt that some do, but there is an easy solution to this slight problem.

Hire CC on fixed term contracts, not as permanent employees, and when that term is up, toss 'em out and hire new ones.
This would be less expensive than paying long serving CC higher salaries, and totally eliminate the 'I'm equal to pilots' syndrome.

[Rainboe]

It's a shock to actually agree with you 411A! But it boils down to this- the P2, P3, F/E whatever, are second, third, fourth in terms of command of the aircraft. This should be reflected in terms of upgrade policy, despite length of service. Period. It's no more complicated than that.

[hetfield]

Slightly off topic, but also has to do with different standards.

Some moons ago after a long working day we checked in in our hotel at Istanbul, where I haven't been for years. The purser gave the voucher to the hotel staff and we received our keyes. I (CPT) was wondering a bit cause I reckonized to sleep on the same floor as the F/A and had in my mind that in IST the CPT get's a suite on a different floor. I asked the hotel staff about the voucher again and found out that the Purser has put his name on top of the list instead of mine:=. I went to my crew and asked the purser for the key. But instead of taking it for myself I gave it to the youngest (seniority) F/A.

One hour later we met each other for Dinner. Whole crew, beside the purser.;)

[Johnny767]

Hire CC on fixed term contracts, not as permanent employees, and when that term is up, toss 'em out and hire new ones.
This would be less expensive than paying long serving CC higher salaries, and totally eliminate the 'I'm equal to pilots' syndrome.

Problem 1:

Big Union

Problem 2:

Legacy Carrier

The F/A's are essentially "Un-skilled Labor."

Hired off the street, given a little in-house course, and voilla an "Aviation Safety Professional" is born.

Dick (in the rear) is empowered.

[Lemper]

I wish I could give you an input, but I have been flying "freighters only" for quite a while now, and on every flight, I praise the Lord for this blessing!
:}:p

[BelArgUSA]

Lemper...
xxx
I miss my brief 6 month career with Cargolux, just before they retired their 747-200s...
However, did you know that Cargolux had flight attendants?...
In the 200s, they had 16 F class seats on the upper deck, sometimes with passengers... so a F/A was there to take care of them...
xxx
And after landing, these few F/As that flew with us, were keen to ask the cockpit crew."check list finished, parking brakes set...?" - OK guys, what do you like...? A Heineken or a Stella...? - Was a company tradition...
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

[Dream Land]

It's a shock to actually agree with you 411A! Very funny.
Slightly off topic, but also has to do with different standards.
Some moons ago after a long working day we checked in in our hotel at Istanbul, where I haven't been for years. The purser gave the voucher to the hotel staff and we received our keyes. I (CPT) was wondering a bit cause I reckonized to sleep on the same floor as the F/A and had in my mind that in IST the CPT get's a suite on a different floor. I asked the hotel staff about the voucher again and found out that the Purser has put his name on top of the list instead of mine. I went to my crew and asked the purser for the key. But instead of taking it for myself I gave it to the youngest (seniority) F/A.
One hour later we met each other for Dinner. Whole crew, beside the purser Great story, what are these people thinking?
At my third world airline, it's first come, first serve, DH'ing crews are on tickets, at check in, if a seat up front is available, they get the seat.
A story I have to relate is jumpseating to work on UAL, because of the procedure, I get on board fairly late and introduce myself to the Purser, then the flight deck, the captain told me to leave my bags on the flight deck, I found my seat in the cabin, at the end of the flight, the captain made a point to have my bags waiting for me as I walked off, (great folks at UAL) I now make it a point to take care of the bags (when possible) for all DH's. :ok:

[flyinthesky]

Unfortunately for any of us working with cabin crew, this situation will seem all too familiar.

It's all down to the constant flattening of the command structure by the CRM people. Works great on paper and can lead to nice warm fuzzy feelings BUT our industry is one that DOES require a certain amount of gradient. I for one am sick of crew complaining that they are not treated like the pilots. Our scheduling agreement is much better than the crews but for some reason they think that it applies to them.

As I keep pointing out, if they were able to organise themselves better wrt their union, they may stand a chance. However most cannot even organise a night out. Most do not see the job as one for life but automatically assume they should be treated the same as flight deck.

Unfortunately for us, in our company (UK charter) all of us travel in economy. But we are working on this!!!!

[411A]

It's a shock to actually agree with you 411A!

Don't be shocked, Rainboe, sooner or later most will come around to my way of thinking.
Like you, I have been at this business in the pointy end for a very long time, and realise that pilots have to earn their qualifications and experience, not just pass through a short course, and be assigned to the line.

CC have no clue...period.

This is not to say that many are very good at their jobs, BUT, insofar as authority goes, the bottom rung on the ladder is reserved for the CC skirts, and ah...wanabee skirts.

As I mentioned before, dime a dozen.

[Rainboe]

This is not to say that many are very good at their jobs, BUT, insofar as authority goes, the bottom rung on the ladder is reserved for the CC skirts, and ah...wanabee skirts.
That's not the way BA sees it! They've gone to great pains to take away authority of the A/C Commander over the CC. Their i/c CC, a Cabin Services Director (no less), has complete autonomy and control (and often gets better hotel rooms than the captain). The result is a cabin services management that will do anything to keep the darlings happy, frequently lines them up against a wall and shoots them with a money canon, treats said CSD as complete commander, a cabin services department with minimal effort, special payments too numerous to count, usually a complete refusal to countenance extension, extreme demotivation and a renowned hostile attitude (to everybody), plus an ability to disappear to bunks for long periods on even short longhaul sectors. Combine that with loaders actively sabotaging by 'losing' cases (to show who's boss) and an 'upstairs' with not much idea of what's going on and no control, and you have one weird place to work! It's the Heathrow/Thiefrow factor working again. Awful place.

I believe CC training was once down to 3 weeks in school for BA. They can come out paid more than pilots. I will never forget an 11 year 747 copilot- lowest paid on the crew. Less than a 3 month CC. Second in command?

[Lemper]

BelArg....

Yep, I knew this, and in one of my former lives, on 707 (pax) the girl in charge of the front galley (+ flight deck) would systematically present us with three glasses of "bubbly', as soon as the last SLF was out! (Even if Nigel had dug a hole on the 1000ft markers, only would she put her knickers on her ankles!)
Times change; airline transport used to be a public service, now it is a business like "selling" fish and chips.
The days of the baby boomers is over, now is the time of the money boomers and "Spirit has left the building"!
But you know what? When those Long Teeth Toddlers will reach our age (IF they reach it), they will be suicidely bored stiff as there will be no good memory to recall like we have.
Cheers.

[parabellum]

Quote:

That's not the way BA sees it! They've gone to great pains to take away authority of the A/C Commander over the CC. Their i/c CC, a Cabin Services Director (no less), has complete autonomy and control (and often gets better hotel rooms than the captain). The result is a cabin services management that will do anything to keep the darlings happy, frequently lines them up against a wall and shoots them with a money canon, treats said CSD as complete commander, a cabin services department with minimal effort, special payments too numerous to count, usually a complete refusal to countenance extension, extreme demotivation and a renowned hostile attitude (to everybody), plus an ability to disappear to bunks for long periods on even short longhaul sectors. Combine that with loaders actively sabotaging by 'losing' cases (to show who's boss) and an 'upstairs' with not much idea of what's going on and no control, and you have one weird place to work! It's the Heathrow/Thiefrow factor working again. Awful place.

This is not just a problem, it is a disease.

[ooizcalling]

A little over a year ago I was off-loaded from a KLM flight to allow off-duty F/A's to travel. The flight was almost full and the only seats available were a couple of economy seats plus the cabin jump seats and there were more staff waiting than seats available.
The reason given for being off-loaded at the Captains direction was;
1) I was now retired from KLM (>56 years old)
2) I was a 'buitenlander' (one of their former foreign pilots)
3) I was ex cityhopper (regional) division and therefore had never been a 'real' KLM pilot in the first place.
Letters of complaint to management received the same treatment. They refused to deal with it.:ugh:
With mentality like this, from both parties, there was no use in persuing it any further . . . . but it doesn't take much imagination to guess my opinion of them both.:mad:

[411A]

Years ago when traveling from PHX on TWA with a 75% space available ticket, I was astonished to find that TWA CC were being boarded, each with a class 10 pass...service charge only, space available.
I mentioned to the TWA personnel at the gate that I held a revenue ticket that was of a higher priority than a class ten pass, and if they left me behind, Kansas City would know about it without delay.
CC off, yours truly on.
Of course the CC were not pleased, but then again...dime a dozen.
The ultimate was waiting to board an AA 727 at LGA, and there was one seat left, and this was apparently 'reserved' for the deadheading Captain's wife, as he would sit on the FD.
She had a 10% space available ticket whereas I had obtained a positive space ID50, so the missus (and her AA Captain) were left behind...I can still remember her cursing at the AA Captain as I walked down the jetway...'Harvey, you cheap b*stard, getting me a 10% ticket, you will pay for this you a**hole'.:}