Deadheading Priority? (Pilots verse Flight Attendants)
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Deadheading Priority? (Pilots verse Flight Attendants)
I would appreciate a little feedback....
We at Air Canada, have a little squabble between the F/A's and the Pilots, with respect to being upgraded to Business Class, while Deadheading.
I'm interested in European, Asian, US, Middle East Airlines policy, with respect to who (?) Deadheads in Business Class verse Economy Class.
The history on the fight is at Air Canada Captains Deadheaded in Business Class and the F/O, Relief Pilot and all the Cabin Crew got upgraded to Business, based on Service Date with the Airline. As such, you could have the Captain, and every F/A, in Business Class with the F/O and R/P in Economy.
This was recently changed, now all Pilots get Business Class, before any F/A, while Deadheading on Company Business.
I'm intested if there are any carriers, worldwide, that would put a F/A in Business (First Class) over a Pilot.
Thanks in advance.
We at Air Canada, have a little squabble between the F/A's and the Pilots, with respect to being upgraded to Business Class, while Deadheading.
I'm interested in European, Asian, US, Middle East Airlines policy, with respect to who (?) Deadheads in Business Class verse Economy Class.
The history on the fight is at Air Canada Captains Deadheaded in Business Class and the F/O, Relief Pilot and all the Cabin Crew got upgraded to Business, based on Service Date with the Airline. As such, you could have the Captain, and every F/A, in Business Class with the F/O and R/P in Economy.
This was recently changed, now all Pilots get Business Class, before any F/A, while Deadheading on Company Business.
I'm intested if there are any carriers, worldwide, that would put a F/A in Business (First Class) over a Pilot.
Thanks in advance.
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In SIA, on the pax fleet, cabin crew only deadhead in economy, no upgrade offered or allowed.
Captains are booked firm in economy but may be upgraded to First class, likewise FOs if they are deadheading. Staff travel different set of rules, only Capts may buy or be upgraded to First unless FO was employed prior to 1986, then he is on same deal as captains.
Forgot to mention: Other airlines, Captains F or J class, FOs and CC economy.
Always asked for FO to be upgraded but if not possible would then sit with FO. Usually short-haul within Europe/USA.
Captains are booked firm in economy but may be upgraded to First class, likewise FOs if they are deadheading. Staff travel different set of rules, only Capts may buy or be upgraded to First unless FO was employed prior to 1986, then he is on same deal as captains.
Forgot to mention: Other airlines, Captains F or J class, FOs and CC economy.
Always asked for FO to be upgraded but if not possible would then sit with FO. Usually short-haul within Europe/USA.
Last edited by parabellum; 4th Aug 2007 at 12:43.
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At Spanair pilots do get confirmed business class (sans the use of airport lounges) on deadhead flights in house, while FAs get confirmed economy and often upgraded. All regardless of seniority.
Not that our C Class is very fancy though. (Our Y is downright "low cost" style).
Deadhead with other airlines is usually Y, unless certain criteria with regard to trip length, duty hours, etc are met and then it's C Class (always confirmed booking).
Not that our C Class is very fancy though. (Our Y is downright "low cost" style).
Deadhead with other airlines is usually Y, unless certain criteria with regard to trip length, duty hours, etc are met and then it's C Class (always confirmed booking).
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Thanks very much. I'm hoping to hear from a variety of different Carriers.
Our (Air Canada) F/A's believe they should be upgraded to Business Class ahead of F/O's and RP's, if they have more Seniority.
It is an old clause that dates back to the stone-age of the Airline being Government owned.
"Company Seniority" trumps "Command Authority."
They are getting a small dose of reality.
My gut feeling is, there is not an Airline (anywhere) that would upgrade a F/A, ahead of a Pilot.
Deadheading on Company business.
Please keep them coming.....
Our (Air Canada) F/A's believe they should be upgraded to Business Class ahead of F/O's and RP's, if they have more Seniority.
It is an old clause that dates back to the stone-age of the Airline being Government owned.
"Company Seniority" trumps "Command Authority."
They are getting a small dose of reality.
My gut feeling is, there is not an Airline (anywhere) that would upgrade a F/A, ahead of a Pilot.
Deadheading on Company business.
Please keep them coming.....
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My gut feeling is, there is not an Airline (anywhere) that would upgrade a F/A, ahead of a Pilot.
Deadheading on Company business.
American Airlines will.
Company policy is first come first serve, regardless of seniority or position.
Deadheading on Company business.
American Airlines will.
Company policy is first come first serve, regardless of seniority or position.
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I have to deadhead, or position occasionally, as a 747 captain, either with my own airline, or with other air carriers... Deaheading on our own airline is never a problem, we get F or J seats when available.
xxx
If I am just with my cockpit crew, F/O and F/E with me, the 3 of us are often offered F or J class seats with other airlines... If with an entire cabin crew, there are 11 F/As with us, they often end to have to sit in economy class...
xxx
My personal policy... I will, as a captain, sit with my F/O and my F/E if they are not offered a F or J seat, on other airlines. I decline a F or J seat with a smile to these airlines, to stay with my cockpit crew.
xxx
What I noticed, is that USA and European airlines are not liberal with their premium seats for us "third world" aircrews. On my own flights, anywhere, I always offer premium seats to crews from other airlines, particularly to cockpit crews to show our hospitality.
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
If I am just with my cockpit crew, F/O and F/E with me, the 3 of us are often offered F or J class seats with other airlines... If with an entire cabin crew, there are 11 F/As with us, they often end to have to sit in economy class...
xxx
My personal policy... I will, as a captain, sit with my F/O and my F/E if they are not offered a F or J seat, on other airlines. I decline a F or J seat with a smile to these airlines, to stay with my cockpit crew.
xxx
What I noticed, is that USA and European airlines are not liberal with their premium seats for us "third world" aircrews. On my own flights, anywhere, I always offer premium seats to crews from other airlines, particularly to cockpit crews to show our hospitality.
xxx
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Length of service should mean squat on these upgrades/class. Imagine me being in 1st as a poor but long service F/O being in a nice bed at the front whilst the new in company DFO sits in the back....
Not gonna work in my eyes. Flight crew as RANK should get the priority. If CSD's want to be ahead of F/O's in the command chain, maybe they could offer some help when the skipper dies mid Atlantic, an engine fails, rapid depress.... So then Dorris, what shall we do (Sir/Madam..)
Rant over
Not gonna work in my eyes. Flight crew as RANK should get the priority. If CSD's want to be ahead of F/O's in the command chain, maybe they could offer some help when the skipper dies mid Atlantic, an engine fails, rapid depress.... So then Dorris, what shall we do (Sir/Madam..)
Rant over
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A very senior Saudi Captain (Saudia) was deadheaded in economy, while a VIP F/A (also deadheading) was upgraded to First. He complained; the Prince (or whatever piece of crap VIP he was) punished the Captain for complaining (he was senior to the f/a by 20 years, but she had...wasda). It happened/happens on Saudia, FOR SURE.
He was my very competent IP for initial line training on the 747 classic, and at the time, was a senior 400 Captain. Sam.
He was my very competent IP for initial line training on the 747 classic, and at the time, was a senior 400 Captain. Sam.
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Sounds like a case of "on-board upgrading," happens all the time. The F/A's look after their own and 'leave a wet-spot' when they can do it at the expense of a Pilot.
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If I was in a position of authority at an airline where the CC complained about deadhead policy regarding rank, they would be shown the door without delay, and told not to let it hit their backside on the way out.
CC...dime a dozen, whereas FD crew, especially now with the job market tight and training costs high, get the nod, hands down.
F/A's can't really be serious...lets look at the facts.
Skirts (and skirted boys) can be hired in a flash, given minimal training, paid very little, and put to work.
FD crew, OTOH, must have training and experience in their profession, a license and medical, and the aptitude to actually fly the aeroplane, long before they are considered for a position.
So, trolly dollies, like it or lump it....nobody cares, you get the low rung on the ladder, by default.
CC...dime a dozen, whereas FD crew, especially now with the job market tight and training costs high, get the nod, hands down.
F/A's can't really be serious...lets look at the facts.
Skirts (and skirted boys) can be hired in a flash, given minimal training, paid very little, and put to work.
FD crew, OTOH, must have training and experience in their profession, a license and medical, and the aptitude to actually fly the aeroplane, long before they are considered for a position.
So, trolly dollies, like it or lump it....nobody cares, you get the low rung on the ladder, by default.
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If CSD's want to be ahead of F/O's in the command chain, maybe they could offer some help when the skipper dies mid Atlantic, an engine fails, rapid depress.... So then Dorris, what shall we do (Sir/Madam..)
...Some things don't change, world-wide.
F/A's (twisted minds) think they are Professional Equals to Pilots.
Here in Canada, the F/A's have a "Pay of Equal Value" (reference the Pilots) case in front of a government agency.
This Deadheading issue is all part of the same mentality.
...Some things don't change, world-wide.
F/A's (twisted minds) think they are Professional Equals to Pilots.
Here in Canada, the F/A's have a "Pay of Equal Value" (reference the Pilots) case in front of a government agency.
This Deadheading issue is all part of the same mentality.
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F/A's (twisted minds) think they are Professional Equals to Pilots.
Hire CC on fixed term contracts, not as permanent employees, and when that term is up, toss 'em out and hire new ones.
This would be less expensive than paying long serving CC higher salaries, and totally eliminate the 'I'm equal to pilots' syndrome.
Warning Toxic!
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It's a shock to actually agree with you 411A! But it boils down to this- the P2, P3, F/E whatever, are second, third, fourth in terms of command of the aircraft. This should be reflected in terms of upgrade policy, despite length of service. Period. It's no more complicated than that.
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Slightly off topic, but also has to do with different standards.
Some moons ago after a long working day we checked in in our hotel at Istanbul, where I haven't been for years. The purser gave the voucher to the hotel staff and we received our keyes. I (CPT) was wondering a bit cause I reckonized to sleep on the same floor as the F/A and had in my mind that in IST the CPT get's a suite on a different floor. I asked the hotel staff about the voucher again and found out that the Purser has put his name on top of the list instead of mine
. I went to my crew and asked the purser for the key. But instead of taking it for myself I gave it to the youngest (seniority) F/A.
One hour later we met each other for Dinner. Whole crew, beside the purser.
Some moons ago after a long working day we checked in in our hotel at Istanbul, where I haven't been for years. The purser gave the voucher to the hotel staff and we received our keyes. I (CPT) was wondering a bit cause I reckonized to sleep on the same floor as the F/A and had in my mind that in IST the CPT get's a suite on a different floor. I asked the hotel staff about the voucher again and found out that the Purser has put his name on top of the list instead of mine
. I went to my crew and asked the purser for the key. But instead of taking it for myself I gave it to the youngest (seniority) F/A.One hour later we met each other for Dinner. Whole crew, beside the purser.
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Hire CC on fixed term contracts, not as permanent employees, and when that term is up, toss 'em out and hire new ones.
This would be less expensive than paying long serving CC higher salaries, and totally eliminate the 'I'm equal to pilots' syndrome.
Problem 1:
Big Union
Problem 2:
Legacy Carrier
The F/A's are essentially "Un-skilled Labor."
Hired off the street, given a little in-house course, and voilla an "Aviation Safety Professional" is born.
Dick (in the rear) is empowered.
This would be less expensive than paying long serving CC higher salaries, and totally eliminate the 'I'm equal to pilots' syndrome.
Problem 1:
Big Union
Problem 2:
Legacy Carrier
The F/A's are essentially "Un-skilled Labor."
Hired off the street, given a little in-house course, and voilla an "Aviation Safety Professional" is born.
Dick (in the rear) is empowered.
Last edited by Johnny767; 5th Aug 2007 at 15:54.
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Lemper...
xxx
I miss my brief 6 month career with Cargolux, just before they retired their 747-200s...
However, did you know that Cargolux had flight attendants?...
In the 200s, they had 16 F class seats on the upper deck, sometimes with passengers... so a F/A was there to take care of them...
xxx
And after landing, these few F/As that flew with us, were keen to ask the cockpit crew."check list finished, parking brakes set...?" - OK guys, what do you like...? A Heineken or a Stella...? - Was a company tradition...
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
I miss my brief 6 month career with Cargolux, just before they retired their 747-200s...
However, did you know that Cargolux had flight attendants?...
In the 200s, they had 16 F class seats on the upper deck, sometimes with passengers... so a F/A was there to take care of them...
xxx
And after landing, these few F/As that flew with us, were keen to ask the cockpit crew."check list finished, parking brakes set...?" - OK guys, what do you like...? A Heineken or a Stella...? - Was a company tradition...
xxx
Happy contrails
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It's a shock to actually agree with you 411A!
Slightly off topic, but also has to do with different standards.
Some moons ago after a long working day we checked in in our hotel at Istanbul, where I haven't been for years. The purser gave the voucher to the hotel staff and we received our keyes. I (CPT) was wondering a bit cause I reckonized to sleep on the same floor as the F/A and had in my mind that in IST the CPT get's a suite on a different floor. I asked the hotel staff about the voucher again and found out that the Purser has put his name on top of the list instead of mine. I went to my crew and asked the purser for the key. But instead of taking it for myself I gave it to the youngest (seniority) F/A.
One hour later we met each other for Dinner. Whole crew, beside the purser
Some moons ago after a long working day we checked in in our hotel at Istanbul, where I haven't been for years. The purser gave the voucher to the hotel staff and we received our keyes. I (CPT) was wondering a bit cause I reckonized to sleep on the same floor as the F/A and had in my mind that in IST the CPT get's a suite on a different floor. I asked the hotel staff about the voucher again and found out that the Purser has put his name on top of the list instead of mine. I went to my crew and asked the purser for the key. But instead of taking it for myself I gave it to the youngest (seniority) F/A.
One hour later we met each other for Dinner. Whole crew, beside the purser
At my third world airline, it's first come, first serve, DH'ing crews are on tickets, at check in, if a seat up front is available, they get the seat.
A story I have to relate is jumpseating to work on UAL, because of the procedure, I get on board fairly late and introduce myself to the Purser, then the flight deck, the captain told me to leave my bags on the flight deck, I found my seat in the cabin, at the end of the flight, the captain made a point to have my bags waiting for me as I walked off, (great folks at UAL) I now make it a point to take care of the bags (when possible) for all DH's.
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Unfortunately for any of us working with cabin crew, this situation will seem all too familiar.
It's all down to the constant flattening of the command structure by the CRM people. Works great on paper and can lead to nice warm fuzzy feelings BUT our industry is one that DOES require a certain amount of gradient. I for one am sick of crew complaining that they are not treated like the pilots. Our scheduling agreement is much better than the crews but for some reason they think that it applies to them.
As I keep pointing out, if they were able to organise themselves better wrt their union, they may stand a chance. However most cannot even organise a night out. Most do not see the job as one for life but automatically assume they should be treated the same as flight deck.
Unfortunately for us, in our company (UK charter) all of us travel in economy. But we are working on this!!!!
It's all down to the constant flattening of the command structure by the CRM people. Works great on paper and can lead to nice warm fuzzy feelings BUT our industry is one that DOES require a certain amount of gradient. I for one am sick of crew complaining that they are not treated like the pilots. Our scheduling agreement is much better than the crews but for some reason they think that it applies to them.
As I keep pointing out, if they were able to organise themselves better wrt their union, they may stand a chance. However most cannot even organise a night out. Most do not see the job as one for life but automatically assume they should be treated the same as flight deck.
Unfortunately for us, in our company (UK charter) all of us travel in economy. But we are working on this!!!!