Manchester AAVA 'ban'.

[Mahaba]

From what I can gather Manchester Area Controllers are, this month, carrying out their own unofficial AAVA ban. That is they are declining AAVA's. Im not sure of the ins and outs except that I know it's not official industrial action so there are no comebacks on the union. I'm under the impression that it's the beginning of the frustration of the Manchester situation manifesting itself through real action. The unit itself runs on AAVA's and with the staffing crisis, the banding issue and the NPC move (all of which have been so well documented here that I don't need to explain further) I guess the guys have just had enough and are demonstrating that with their feet. I still get the feeling that no-one will listen and it's only going to get worse. Watch this space.

[MancBoy]

TC and Swanwick also rely on AAVA's so sooner they sort out the staffing the better, although some of us are of the opinion that it is cheaper for NATS to pay AAVA's rather than controllers annual salaries.

[Del Prado]

When you add in the cost of training, AAVA's are an absolute bargain to management.

If you run 10% down on staff numbers during a relocation, that's 10% less in relocation costs too.

Still, there will always be someone willing to do an AAVA, it's a lot of money if you're newly valid.

[Mahaba]

I think it's more a case of frustration with the managers who have made and are making decisions where MACC is concerned which is now on a sharply decreasing spiral where morale is concerned. the unit is at crisis point now and the guys have been told they will be getting no more staff, training for NPC is expected to be high, no more moves for ATCO2's, all perks have gone, coupled with the move to Scottish, being 5th in Europe for complexity and airspace movements (behind TC only for NATS) 2 hours on and half an hour off to debrief your trainee etc, and then the banding debacle (which is now being legally challenged at last). Unless you work there (you may give your opinion) but you have no idea of the veracity of feeling against management. Crisis management going critically wrong.

[Gonzo]

being 5th in Europe for complexity and airspace movements (behind TC only for NATS)

Without wishing to divert the thread, that document has been verified then, I presume.

[Mahaba]

It has; but...we have subsequently found out that those figures filter out and dont take account of any of our traffic at FL80 and below, which is quite a high number (don't forget EGCC works traffic from airborne to FL285) making our rating even lower than it really should be.

[MancBoy]

reading the minutes from the lakes working group meeting i chuckled at the suggestion of moving s29 back to lacc, bet that went down well!!

[Mahaba]

Manc boy
"if macc is so busy then how come s29 never, or hardly never, have any traffic to affect slowing climbing traffic out of the ltma?
"we'll watch it through" is the standard response, blocking 5ooo feet of airspace if its a virgin 340.
once this document appears on natsnet, then i'll believe it!"
As for S29 not being busy-I'll let those guys answer that one. As for your last comment about natsnet-what happens if and when you have to believe it?

[MancBoy]

then i and the rest of lacc will believe it!

until then i shan't bother holding my breath and. i'll keep noting that on the weekly traffic figures macc keeps going down whereas tc/lacc keeps going up

with regard to 'the document', is it all of macc that is complex or just a small portion?

[Roffa]

Don't worry Manch chums, as mentioned above it seems you're traffic is reducing (http://www.nats.co.uk/article/122/99/air_traffic_continues_to_grow.html) whilst everyone elses is going up.

Should make it a bit less complicated for you ;) :p

[MancBoy]

Evidence, better than the rumoured 'document'

[Gonzo]

Don't worry Manch chums, as mentioned above it seems you're traffic is reducing (http://www.nats.co.uk/article/122/99/air_traffic_continues_to_grow.html) whilst everyone elses is going up.Ooops, better hope Mr. Barron doesn't see that, he might well insist on MACC being re-banded!!!! :E

[Balloon24]

When the NATS supplied traffic figures were used by some at MACC to try and support their argument against the banding proposals, there were many voices from the south rubbishing the figures for a variety of reasons. And now the figures have changed (by only a very few percentage points) to favour other units, they're suddenly credible and to be believed? Don't think so. Seems there are a number of anomolies and issues with the way in which the figures are compiled for ALL units.
And as for needing verification of a MACC sector/airspace being 5th in Europe for complexity and airspace movements.....it's not the first report/document to suggest this. I believe the report (and I stand to be corrected on this) came out of Eurocontrol......don't think they have any particular axe to grind....could they not be considered independant enough for the figures to have some credibility?
So a thread that started about some of the issues at MACC turns into a them and us slanging match between the units.....again.
How about keeping things in context whichever unit we work for (and to show a bit of balance ..."2 hours on and half an hour off to debrief your trainee"? ....don't know of a single instance when someone has worked for 2hrs unless there have been extenuating circumstances.....if it happened more than once on the unit every couple of months I'd be suprised. Having said that, an AAVA "ban" will see that change).
So MACC is busy and faces some issues....just like many units. If you're not working at MACC come and visit (always welcome) and base your opinions of the unit on what you've seen....not the (often jaundiced and uninformed) rumours and postings you may come across.

[Gonzo]

Sorry, I didn't realise this was about 'issues', it seemed more an announcement.

If you want to talk about issues.....

Just how common is working 2 hours then half hour breaks? If it is common, and thought to be unsuitable, what pressure is being brought to bear on management to re-negotiate for a local agreement of enhanced relief? Why does this happen? Valid WMs, Sups etc taking too long out of the line? People declining AAVAs? Perhaps the AAVA trigger should be looked at?

What is being done to to make you guys feel more comfortable about the move?

[anotherthing]

Working 2 hours with half hour breaks???

Can't be that complex/busy if you are allowed to do 2 hours on console at a time :}

[MancBoy]

Balloon 24, I have visited MACC on numerous occasions recently and have plugged in on STAFA/TRENT and S29 and at no point have I thought that it was so complex to be rated 5th in Europe.

Plus, how do you explain Eurocontrol producing a document without knowing the ins and outs of each and every sector in UK airspace and also without plugging in to the actual position at the same time every day on each sector to be able to make a balanced judgement?

Regarding 2hours on half an hour off, do MACC not have enhanced relief when this shouldn't be happening? If you do then your union rep should be doing something about it!

[Balloon24]

Gonzo- as I said above, 2hrs on sector very rarely happens and if so usually for extenuating circumstances. Hour and a half on then 30 mins break all day, all cycle certainly not unusual though.

The MACC enhanced relief agreements dictate that for most of the MACC sectors, 1.5 hours on sector is the max for large parts of the day (or for some of the sectors ALL day) ....which again seems to support the argument that high sector traffic levels and/or complexity at MACC are not a myth?

As for sector complexity being rated 5th in Europe....afraid I don't have the personnal experience across Europen centres/sectors to comment.....however I 'm assuming that Eurocontrol (if indeed it was them who compiled the report) put a bit of thought into the process and didn't just draw names of sectors/centres out of a hat.

[MancBoy]

1.5 on 30 mins off, so what do we do at the other units then?

I've also spent time at MAAS on their busiest and most complex sector, the one around COA, and it definitely was worse than MACC, not quite as complex as TC (which I have validated on so know a bit about it) and on a par with some of the LACC sectors.

So where was that on the 'list'

[megaphone25]

Ballon 24. The report may be considered to be credible being from eurocontrol but as you've seen by the the original banding calculations and results that followed, they will not always represent the true picture or can be misinterpreted. The problem is no formula or report will ever calculate for the differences between centres and sectors its just too complicated. Unfortunately this means the banding issue may never be resolved.
As for the legal challenge to banding it will fail for the above reason.

I'm glad you guys are starting to kick some ass up there about the way you've been treated but don't lose sight of a reasoned argument.

[Someone_Else]

I think this might be the document people are referring to:

http://www.eurocontrol.int/prc/gallery/content/public/Docs/Complexity_%20report.pdf

[Balloon24]

Mega25 - Even though I work at MACC and the ranking results "suit" me, I couldn't agree more. And it'll be interesting to see what the Banding challenge will bring...if anything.

Manc - "1.5 on 30 mins off, so what do we do at the other units then?" .....No idea. I've only commented on the situation at MACC in response to postings/questions on what is (generally) a thread about MACC. Certainly never my intention to write anything suggesting MACC is better or worse off than any other unit when it comes to time plugged in.
Interesting what you say about MAAS and it being "definitely worse than MACC".....not sure how long you spent drawing your conclusions at the various units and what criteria you base them on....just like I don't know how Eurocontrol came to theirs. As Mega25 has hinted at, due to the nature of ATC, I suspect you could ask 5 different bodies to rank a selection of sectors and get at least 3 different answers. You want to talk about the vagueries of compiling ranking tables?....discuss the Banding Model but I really, really, really don't want to go there.

The Eurocontrol report is just one item that I've commented on when trying to offer the most realistic picture, from my experience, of the goings-on at MACC....why?....well to try and counter what are often very skewed and ill informed rumours and postings about the unit. I'II comment on MACC but am not getting involved in any "them and us" discussions...they smack of self-pity, are pointless and achieve nowt.

[MancBoy]

Having skim read through 'the document' I see that it was published in april 2006 but the actual traffic samples were from 2003!

[250 kts]

I just can't understand why, if the the airspace is so full and complicated at MACC the only regulations they ever have on for capacity is Sector 29 in the early morning. Surely if it is as bad as it is made out to be there would be regulations regularly in place for capacity.

[Ceannairceach]

I find this constant competitive begrudgement, if there is such a word, between units a bit tiresome and sad to be honest. It's paints us all in a bad light, regardless of unit.

We're supposed to be professionals, not willy-waving playground habitants.

The document implies that at the time of the data sample MACC STAFA TRENT was the fifth most complex piece of airspace in Europe based on the criteria used in it's production. Those are facts and for all of the huffing and puffing of those dahn sarf, those facts in that particular report, created using whichever methodology it's compilers applied, will remain.

Whether those facts remain applicable now is another matter and, unless some sort of further study is undertaken, I suspect we'll all be victim to the "my job is more difficult than yours" syndrome that affects many professions, not just our slice of ego-driven, blip shifting madness.

I do find the sudden keenness of those down south to accept one set of statistics that suit their argument whilst ignoring another equally valid set, most amusing though, nice one! :ok:

I think it's worth us all remembering the old "lies, damned lies and statistics" cliché when looking at any set of figures on either side of the argument.

Sometimes it seems to a lot of us at MACC and elsewhere that some of our southern colleagues are rather too keen to downplay and belittle the work undertaken by other units in the country, at every available opportunity, and quite publicly.

And I guess sometimes those of us at MACC repeat the old "fifth most complex" thing rather like an obsessive mantra at times. I'm as guilty as most, though in fairness, I do try to limit my comments specifically to matters at MACC and certainly have never found myself discussing how long my LACC colleagues spend on sector, over my break time Kit Kat.

If you consider the position we at MACC find ourselves in at the moment though, fairly and reasonably, I'm sure you'll agree we are receiving a rather "bum" deal in some quarters, at the moment, oui? So you can hardly blame us for using authoritative data compiled by a powerful body like Eurocontrol as persuasive leverage?

What I'm basically trying to say is stop begrudging your colleagues, doing the same job as you, for the same company, with the same hopes and ideals, a fair treatment and some credit for the task they perform :O

One day in the future of this company of ours, we might need to stand together and actually support each other for once, lest we all find ourselves well and truly shafted......it'd be nice to think we could do it.

[250 kts]

Good post Ceannairceach,

However it was the OP who suggested the AAVA "ban" could be linked to banding.

I do hope this is not the case. If there really is a "ban" then this month will be interesting to see as we should see the staffing delays rise considerably. If they don't then I suspect there will be some difficult questions asked about why the use of AAVAs has been so high.

[MancBoy]

I don't begrudge my colleagues at MACC anything, in fact I have quite a few friends there anyway.

I was merely pointing out the fact that your mate Mahaba was spouting on about this document as if it had just been made when in fact it is 4 years out of date. Looking at the daily figures on it for LACC it shows that during the busy period of data we were handling roughly 5,000 movements a day whereas now it is regularly over 6,000 every day.

Plus, where does it mention STAFA/TRENT in the report? Having read through it it only refers to MACC ACC.

You can't dispute the fact that MACC weekly traffic is regularly minus whereas everywhere else is positive, as has been preiously stated.

[Ali Bongo]

in fact it is 4 years out of date

So its more recent than the "figures" that are used to keep MACC as a band 4 unit then? How old are those figures that band 5 units seem to think are so accurate?

At the end of the day the whole banding thing was a swindle carried out by Prospect. They should be ashamed of themselves.

[MancBoy]

well if macc keeps getting minus then how can it be put up a band?

[Ceannairceach]

I understand the points you're making MancBoy, really I do. Fair play to you :)

However, are you saying that because our weekly traffic figures are regularly in the decline we should basically accept the other factors mentioned briefly by the OP in the first post including the severe staff shortages we have which never seem to be dealt with, and being shafted, in one way or another, to a greater or lesser degree, over the move to NPC?

And even if you don't agree we're being shafted over the NPC thing, you have to admit that we're not exactly being listened to, and nothing is being done to counter the awful morale which gets worse and worse as time goes on.

So yes, whilst the banding issue has diverted the topic somewhat, and sadly so, that doesn't mean the other, non-banding issues mentioned by the OP in his or her first post are any less relevant to those of us at MACC. So perhaps we could leave the detrimental cross-unit arguing behind and focus on the other issues?

[Ceannairceach]

As you and I well know MancBoy, the sheer amount of traffic is not always directly and proportionately linked to the complexity of one's task.

[Lon More]

The Eurocontrol doc. was prepared using information provided by the ANSPs, (P13 of the doc) so any inaccuracy comes from your own unit.

Mancboy, did you previously work at MUAC?

[beaver liquor]

I dont condone any inter-unit arguing about who's busier etc, but wasn't it obvious when we voted in favour of the AAVA agreement that we were kissing goodbye to the realistic chance of ever being staffed properly at the centres?
And what is different to MACC relocating to TC's relocation? Other than people dont want to move, which is hard to argue when we are mobile grades?

[WildWesterner]

I didn't even get as far as the figures and charts on that report but i did notice how they assess complexity - "the indicators do not focus on actual interactions but on potential interactions between flows of aircraft."

If it's anything like our tlpd charts complexity indicator....:uhoh:..... low/slow aircraft seem to have a high rating (fair enough if the potential is there to get in the way) yet a LTMA inbound earns a rating of something like .99 - the aircraft which frequently get huge dogleg turns and numerous speeds for streaming. I know which I work harder with - mind you, that might be my controlling!!:}

On the AAVA issues, all this inter-unit bickering surely plays into managements hands as they periodically decide who to target bungs at - £750 anyone? If having an unofficial veto at MACC is what's needed then well done and good luck to you all. I'm no innocent and have accepted my fair share of aava's but i did chuckle not so long back when i was offered a night shift aava!! (I thought aava's were 8hrs?!) :ugh:

WW

[MancBoy]

Ceannairceach, I totally feel that you guys are being shafted up there with regards to staffing so why do people keep agreeing to AAVA's then?

One day will not make much difference, a whole month would be better!
I
wish things wouldn't degenarate into banding issues but if it keeps being brought up then expect it to get replies, positive or negative.

Explain to the greater public why you are being shafted over the move to NPC? apart from being moved within your mobile grade.

[Balloon24]

What's the difference between the MACC and TC relocation? Well here's at least some part of the answer...and I want to stress that it's a straight answer to the question and is in no way intended to contribute to a them and us discussion.....

I in no way belittle the problems face/d by AC and TC employees and their move to the south coast, but there are differences which mean some at MACC will be facing additional issues.

You want to commute from the M4 corridor to LACC on a daily basis then I know those who've done the reverse trip (and not just ROVI's and part timers)......I wouldn't envy anyone doing it but it's do-able....it's definitely happened in the past and I'm guessing NATS haven't somehow outlawed it? Commuting from Manch to Prestwick on a daily basis is obviously a non starter due distance, which leaves the option of staying away from home for 6/7 days (for those with wife and kids that'll go down well) or going part time (if NATS will let you) with the associated cut in pay. Either option a significant change in lifestyle/conditions.
Education system completely different in Scotland. Supposed to be better than the English system so if your kids are not yet of school age, reap the benefits. However, if your kids are older and already in the English system (and the majority of them are), the transition is not likely to be seamless.
Empoyment for the spouse....again commuting out of the question so there is real potantial for one wage coming in to the household being lost. And again the different education system causes an issue...at least three guys at MACC have partners who are teachers....their qualifications are not recognised in Scotland meaning at the very least, a period of conversion training.
And a few other more intangible things like the way the house buying process works etc.
So you want the differences...that's some of them.

Getting back a bit more on topic, I don't think it's an AAVA "ban" as such....more some (not all) people deciding that after the last few weeks of summer traffic, low staff numbers, lots of Wx, etc, their four days off, for the next few weeks (or as long as they see fit), will be exactly that....days off. AAVA's still being offered and a selection of people still doing them.

[Air.Farce.1]

Trouble is NATS would fall apart if it didnt run on "overtime". Record movements were set again last week at SCOACC, and this was done when they were understaffed! They coped, sending the message that if you work your proper hours for which you are paid handsomely, and some suit at the supervisors desk can juggle the staff whilst enjoying his BMW,BUPA membership, and BONUS, then more fool you for doing the
AAVA. Quite frankly it's sickening having to listen to Watch Sups actually pleading on the phone to staff to "come on in" . Obviously their bonus depends on recruiting AAVA's.
Stay at home on your days off and enjoy life, after all "Cash isn't King"......... or is it...... :)

[radar707]

Perhaps if enough of us wrote to the union we could get a extraordinary general meeting to debate the issue of AAVA's with a view to the union organising a vote to stop doing them and then have something to go to the "Working Together" table with an talk to the Red Barron about when the NATS attributable delays go through the roof!!

[Mahaba]

Beaver liquor-a male colleague per chance? how sweet.

Voting for AAVA's-I think you'll find that regardless of what other units want; the lions share of the vote is with our southern colleagues so it's irrelevant.

TC to Swanick- If you're really convinced that a move from the south coast of England to the south coast of England is the same as a move from Manchester, England to Ayshire, Scotland- then I'd be very surprised if you ever got to validate your cute little name on anything that doesn't have a set of staples in the middle of it.

Why should management divide and conquer? We seem to be doing it for them.

[Gonzo]

Mahaba, I don't think you'll find anyone who believes the West Drayton to Swanwick move is the same as Manchester to Prestwick, but surely that's not the point, is it?

[callyoushortly]

Perhaps if enough of us wrote to the union we could get a extraordinary general meeting to debate the issue of AAVA's with a view to the union organising a vote to stop doing them and then have something to go to the "Working Together" table with an talk to the Red Barron about when the NATS attributable delays go through the roof!!

The thing with that is that you wouldn't necessarily get everyone to agree to it. I have sympathy with the plight of the guys at MACC, it seems, working almost entirely on AAVA's. But spare a thought for the smaller units.....
I think it'd be fair to say that they're pretty well subscribed now, my unit is. Therefore, the AAVA's that do get offered tend to be snapped up happily, as they don't come around too often, and the (small) amount of extra money is gratefully recieved. I think you'd be hard pushed to get everyone to agree to a ban......

[Ppdude]

Read up a few posts. The Beaver muncher obviously thinks both moves are the same.

A minor point to any others that think they are........ last time I checked Swanwick was in the same country as TC was it not?

[Gonzo]

Every move from one unit to another is unique.

The only, and I'm afraid overwhelming, similarity to TC/LACC is that we all signed up for the job, knowing full well the implications of being a 'mobile grade'.

[ImnotanERIC]

why would manchester ever be considwewd for band 5 pay??
whatever statistics are banded about does not get away from the facvt that swanwick and tc ARE much busier. you dont see many retread trainess getting sent down south for another shot at training on a TC or AC sector. I could name you 10 -15 off the top of my head who have gone north though.

the real banding issue should be why just because you work in the same building should not mean you get the same band money. e.g ltma sectors/ll/kk have more of a case for being band 5 than gw in my opinion. Im not saying that GW should be banded down a level, just that they are significantly better off than they would be had they still to go to work at the base of gw tower.

[beaver liquor]

PPdude said:
Read up a few posts. The Beaver muncher obviously thinks both moves are the same.
A minor point to any others that think they are........ last time I checked Swanwick was in the same country as TC was it not?
Its all part of the UK. Plenty of folks come from Wales, Scotland & Northern Ireland to work in England without problem. Trust me, if you work at TC and live north of London e.g. Beds, Bucks or Herts - then a move to the south coast is saying goodbye to friends, family, schools - its a new start as its way too far to commute:rolleyes:

[Ceannairceach]

ImnotanERIC (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=177566) - as I suggested earlier, perhaps being busier doesn't correlate directly and proportionately to the complexity of the task in hand. Not as easily measurable, certainly. But more relevant than a dull "number of aircraft" statistic, definitely.

And perhaps the fact that there are so many re-treads farmed out to other units says something too about the training regimes and personnel at those first units of failure wherever they may be, and poor college intake and teaching methods - as opposed to the job on such and such a unit being so difficult that it's only for REAL controllers, as you seem to imply.

We really do need to move away from this macho "we move more traffic than you therefore our task is harder and yours is easier and less important" blight that plays exactly into the hands of an upper management regime more than willing to divide and rule.

Personally I've always been dead against the banding system, vociferously so. And that would continue to be the case regardless of whether I happened to find myself at the top or bottom of it.

Perhaps I'm stupid in believing that if someone does the same job as me, for the same company, using the same skills, after going through the same training - then they deserve the same treatment and pay and benefits as I.

Perhaps the culture of greed and personal gain really has replaced any form of comradeship and togetherness. If so, I fear my friends that eventually, we're all doomed......

And yes, we're all mobile grades. But it's ludicrous to suggest that a move to Scotland, where the very basics of modern life (education, legal system, even political system) differ from the point of origin. That is hardly comparable to a move down a short stretch of motorway along which spouses and employees can happily commute without the need for a complete life change for the whole family.

And lest we not forget, it was a move and a policy undertaken without any sort of consultation with any of the staff it may affect.

So yeah, by the book, we're all mobile and should go where we're put. But what about treating employees with some reason and respect.

I wonder what would have happend if, instead of moving from West Drayton to LACC, the move would have been to a new Scottish super-centre - entirely hypothetical of course (and unlikely too, naturally). But just supposing if....

I suppose now those of you insisting our move to NPC is no different than your move to LACC will insist you would have skipped along nicely without a single gripe or care in the World....:E

[MancBoy]

well we wouldn't have had the option would we, just as you don't

[Ceannairceach]

Would you have at least tried to do something though MancBoy - even if it was just to get your voice heard and concerns addressed by management?

I'm not having that you would have just said "yeah fine" and got on with it without a single moan or protestation. Come now - I look daft, but I'm not stupid :E

I agree with a lot of what you've posted previously in this topic, absolutely. And even though I'm MACC based, I can see most things from both sides, much to the chagrin of some of my less understanding colleagues on both sides of the unit divide.

But I can't for the life of me figure out why you, and quite a few of your colleagues take such umbridge seemingly at those of us at MACC being a little upset at the situation that confronts us - compulsory or not.

It doesn't affect how much money you'll be paid, or which band you're in after all, does it. :E :ok:

A bit of support, at least publicly, from ones colleagues would be really nice from time to time.....even if it's just in the interests of begrudged karma.

[MancBoy]

Mate, thanks for your kind words.

I, like many others, have been shafted by this company in one way or another.

Several years ago me and 4 of my colleagues were selected, one per watch, to transfer into AC from TC, where we were all valid, in order to help their staff shortages at the time.

Yes, it wasn't exactly a move of several hundred miles, but we effectively had our validations cancelled there and then and were forced to revalidate on completely new sectors with completely different styles of controlling from that which we were used to in TC. Plus, we were also given the incentive that if we failed to validate there would be no chance of going back into TC, as is normal with postings you go back to whence you came, so we could have ended up anywhere in NATS. Just ask Mr Brady at your gaff, he was one of the five.

So you see, I can have some sympathy but why should I when i got shafted for not being on a working group, the excuse I was given by my then watch manager why I was selected.

[Ayr-in-ya-JockStrap]

I, like many others, have been shafted by this company in one way or another.

It sounds to me, because you have been "shafted" by the company, that you seem to think everyone else should get a "shafting". Small minded me thinks!

[MancBoy]

Why exactly am I small minded then, ayr?

[Mahaba]

Manc Boy
When we move to NPC we will also lose some of our validations to revalidate on reworked sectorisations.If we fail, MACC is gone-we may end up workmates-maybe that's a route to band 5!:D

[MancBoy]

I look forward to it mate.

Would have been the best thing anyway I think!

[Mahaba]

I'm stunned...we are in total agreement!:D
And wouldn't it have saved such a mess!

[MancBoy]

we're not all bad...............................really!

[Mahaba]

it appears that our GM agrees that the banding issue which adds to our woes is completely unreasonable and he agrees with our cause! And he now validates the complexity figures. whats going on?.next thing you know they'll be moving us south...not.

[Ayr-in-ya-JockStrap]

Having skim read through 'the document' I see that it was published in april 2006 but the actual traffic samples were from 2003!


So it would appear that this problem has a deeper history than many people first thought!

whatever statistics are banded about does not get away from the facvt that swanwick and tc ARE much busier

Well here's an interesting statistic. When you calculate aircraft controlled per ATCO in post, LACC do not appear in the top two of the four UK centres.

More flights per centre or more flights per person. Who would you say is the busier?

Why exactly am I small minded then, ayr?

See below:

I can have some sympathy but why should I when i got shafted

ME ME ME

As for shrinking traffic figures, could it possibly be the TTM's work protecting an understaffed unit? Think about it! Less controllers less capacity.

It isn't rocket science you know!

[Mahaba]

And let's not forget please that, although our numbers have actually decreased, our airspace has kept increasing with the additional sectors and subsequent traffic which we've taken off LACC; and yet we still suffer from the nonsense of capping further traffic into our airspace. I think sometimes it's forgotten that we can look up too as well as down, often wondering why there's capping at all.

And...our managers believe that we'll lose up to 10 bods with the move to NPC and that's including retirees etc. We have our own list of actual names with firm plans...we're up to the mid 30's already!

It's all good!:D

[Mahaba]

I think what's sometimes forgotten in all of this is that MACC in effect combines the function of two units, it performs a TMA function working a/c from departure (about 2500ft) all the way up to an AC function at FL285 and for descending a/c up to FL300+. It means all controllers combine both a TC and an AC function at the same time. That's where our complexity comes from. It's not just cruising trfc or climbing and descending TMA trfc...it's both at the same time sometimes on a 100 mile range. We don't want to belittle any other unit's...we just don't want them to do it to us.

[Hootin an a roarin]

"I think what's sometimes forgotten in all of this is that MACC in effect combines the function of two units, it performs a TMA function working a/c from departure (about 2500ft) all the way up to an AC function at FL285 and for descending a/c up to FL300+. It means all controllers combine both a TC and an AC function at the same time. "

Doesn't Scoacc do the same?

[terrain safe]

Don't wish to interrupt a good discussion, but is Approach moving as well or is it staying behind at the tower? Thanks a lot.

TS

[Ayr-in-ya-JockStrap]

CC Approach will remain at Manchester. Rumour has it that a new tower is to be built and approach will be co-located there.

[zkdli]

Just adding a little petrol.:) the movements for MACC and Scottish combined are less than that of LTCC...

[Ali Bongo]

Doesn't Scoacc do the same?
With just about the same number of movements in the ops room but with almost twice the number of people. :ugh:
the movements for MACC and Scottish combined are less than that of LTCC...
No-one bar MACC's biggest nutter would suggest that TC shouldn't be paid more. You deserve every penny you get, unlike some other band 5 units whose place in the model simply doesn't add up.
Is that enough petrol ....:ok:

[250 kts]

Actually having just had a browse through the document, i can't see anywhere that TC and AC are split. MACC is in at 2 and London AC at 12-ScOACC is no 27.
I would suggest that these positions may have changes a bit since the study was done. MACC traffic figures are consistently down this year due to the reduction in BA express flights and the subsequent buy out by Flybe.
The real difficulty will be when MACC moves north. Are you suggesting that the 2 units should maybe be graded differently?? And what happens when the airspace is simplified and there fore the complexity goes down-happy to take a pay cut then maybe??:eek::eek:
I understand the frustrations at MACC and I for one would not wish to move from that area to Ayr and the surrounding areas and that is no insult to the many that are already there.:=:=
Not sure TC has twice the staff of MACC and ScOACC put together-and even if it has what has that got to do with complexity of the task?
I assume Ali is talking about the likes of Luton and Thames when he talks about the figures not adding up. Well the staff could always ask management and the unions to investigate different bands for different sectors/groups/validations within a unit but frankly i think that would open up a nest of vipers that none of would like.:eek::eek:

And didn't MACCs biggest nutter get a job at LACC as a Traffic Manager?:ok::ok:

[Ali Bongo]

Manc 'boy' - nail - firmly - head - hit.

Ok, lets see him do the west end which is from low level to high level, lets see him work 65 a/c an hour on the DTY sector and what about the apparent complexities with the LAKES sector at the moment.


I wouldn't even attempt it. You 'boys' at LACC are so much more gifted than us. perhaps if we had all worked harder at the college and got better marks we would have been given the chance to be the elite that is a LACC ATCO.

Perhaps in my next life I will be. :ok: Until then its back to our quiet little backwater rural sectors with 3 planes a day and the odd phone call to make.

[MancBoy]

I'm not saying you couldn't do it or that LACC controllers are elite.

I was merely responding to your comment that some units don't deserve to be band 5 like others.

Plus what's working harder at the college got anything to do with it?
Most trainees come to LACC anyway so I don't know what you are on about!

[Ceannairceach]

Mancboy :

Ok, lets see him do the west end which is from low level to high level, lets see him work 65 a/c an hour on the DTY sector and what about the apparent complexities with the LAKES sector at the moment.Surely all of us, or pretty much, could do that after appropriate training. Or are you implying that only those at LACC are capable of such world-beating feats?

You might not have meant it to mate, but your statement there sounds exactly like the sort of "we're better than you" rubbish that frankly is more suited to a playground than a professional person with a highly responsible job.

And again, you might not have meant it to, but in saying it, you're basically totally dismissing the work undertaken at other units - implying it is somehow so much easier and quieter, hence Ali Bongo's rather excellent sarcasm :ok:

It seems to me, if you don't mind me saying, that you have allowed your bad experiences in the company and the disappointment you felt and perhaps feel, cloud your view somewhat on the bigger picture, so to speak.


You have transferred the anger and resentment you felt then onto everyone else and don't seem to be capable or perhaps willing to afford anyone else in the company any sort of support or credit for the job they do or the situations they find themselves in. As you say yourself :


I can have some sympathy but why should I when i got shaftedThat saddens me a little. And it's a good job that everyone who has had an unfavorable work-based experience with NATS doesn't feel the same - otherwise we'd all be cutting each other up in the car parks and not flushing after we've visited the traps, deliberately to annoy. Um, hang on...

Anyway, this all makes you sound a little selfish, egotistical, wholly narrow minded and frankly, bitter.

Which I'm sure you're not at all mate... :ok:

And it makes me sound like a ten a penny psychologist. Knew the qualification would come in handy one day though :E

No unit "deserves" to be band 5 or indeed any band in my view - as I said earlier. We're all doing a variation of the same job, using the same skills, after the same training - as you rightly say yourself.

So come now mate, don't give in to management's divide and rule tactics and accept the banding issue as some sort of rubber seal that your job is somehow more important than everyone else's. Think for yourself. And give your colleagues up and down the country a little tiny bit of credit once in a while....

[megaphone25]

well how about we make sure everyone gets paid the same.

All centres on the same money, and all atco's at the centre as well including the newly validated ones. We all do the same job after all! that seems to be what you are all saying.

I think we'd all have to prepare for a massive pay cut and then watch the transfer requests come piling in. Because i tell you i'm not working this hard for less money, when others will be getting an easier ride!

[Ppdude]

Just how much low level stuff do the atcgods on the West end get then? The odd Brize outbound climbing to FL80 or something? Hardly the same as constant stream of a/c straight of the deck?

[flower]

If the Manchester people feel hard done by with the banding system take a look at Cardiff who perform a large Area function and are paid only as Band 2, they also sort out a lot of crap for the West End. Many in NATS just imagine it is a small airport they do not realise the large amount of airspace they have delegated to them from LACC. As I understood it was well up on the complexity scale.

[Ppdude]

So LACC delegate lots of airpsace to Cardiff as well as CC?
Do they have any left?

[MancBoy]

1.2m flights so far this year probably says yes

[megaphone25]

ppdude there are currently calls from most lks atcos to take airspace back from macc, like bits of s29 and iom. The interaction between the two units just isn't working and making things more complicated and generally unsafer.

How about we all stop squabbling and try to get the job we do right!:ok:

[250 kts]

ppude.
There is a difference between delegated airspace and that which "belongs" to a unit. My understanding is that EGFF do the task around the Severn area during the day in airspace delegated to them and LACC take back that task at night-I know I will quickly find out if this is not the case!
At MACC the airspace is dedicated to that unit and therefore not delegated airspace. Just to give you an idea LACC carries out controlling in airspace delegated from many other agencies, Maastricht and Amsterdam being but two of them with no dispensations.
This is not a one way street, in terms of LACC delegating airspace, as many seem to think and indeed most of the changes do benefit the operators with regards to delays but there are, by all accounts, still some major interface issues around the LKS airspace and S29.

[oneowl]

Ah well, it'll all blow over. Things will be ops normal 1st August, or will they?:=

[250 kts]

Worrying thing for the MACC ATCOs is that, taking last week as an example, delays were only up by 260 minutes compared to the same week last year against traffic that was 1% down on the same week.

Management at the unit must really be wondering whether it is worth continuing to get AAVAs in at all if they can get away with such small increases in delay for nothing.:confused::confused:

[ImnotanERIC]

make them band 6

[oneowl]

250 Kts. For someone who has all the facts ( or thinks they do) the "wondering" management are doing nothing but masking the cracks in this depleted unit by providing a front line service and therefore neglecting their everyday tasks. This, in addition to large weather regulations and excellent staff attendance is a great cover, but can't continue. Rome wasn't built in a day.

[250 kts]

I merely got the figure from the ones that are sent out daily into the public domain.

I don't for one minute deny that MACC is short of staff just as are the rest of the area units. I just think that if there is a "ban" then the staff shifting more than TSFs or whatever they are called nowadays is an own goal. Surely they should be highlighting at every opportunity the ineptitude of the local management in getting numbers up to strength.

Just out of interest how many is the unit short by?

[250 kts]

So what is the latest situation at Manchester? It has all gone very quiet on the subject.

[ImnotanERIC]

quiet like the traffic levels :p:p

[250 kts]

Now now ERIC that's not the way to build inter-unit relations. But still no update from the MACC guys-either they're all doing AAVAs or on leave.:E:E

[250 kts]

Oh come on boys and girls-there's never been a better time to respond this summer cos your movements were actually UP by 20 on the same day last year.:D:D -a rare event indeed.:):)

[ImnotanERIC]

do you mean 20 movements?? would anybody even notice?? surely it cant be 20 percent, that would be crazy?

[250 kts]

Yep-20 movements or 1.1%. I just thought it was an ideal opportunity for them to respond as it is rare for their movements to actually increase this year-they are actually down by around 1.5% over the year despite the Lakes re-sectorisation. I suppose the reason for this is the reduction of routes by Flybe after they took over BA connect.

[Ceannairceach]

Bored chaps? :sad:

What's the point in arguing with and responding or explaining to people on the internet who have already firmly made their minds up before one even engages one's keyboard-prodding fingers.

I'm glad, 250kts, that our traffic figures are keeping you entertained by the way. Those long cold summer nights must simply fly by :E

[250 kts]

Ceannairceach,

At LACC movement and delay figures are posted all over the unit so they are a talking point.

The thread was started to highlight an AAVA ban and the effects it would have. I'm sure we are all interested into what the effects have been on the unit and the way management have handled the situation.

Is the ban still going on? How many is the unit short by? Have management attempted to change night rostering to get more staff in during the day?

All legitimate questions.:confused:

[DTY/LKS]

Seems like a certain individual at LACC has sent an email to all the ATCO's trying to envoke an AAVA ban for the beginning of OCT in order to try & get more money for an AAVA. The said person has already done 17 AAVA's since April himself!
Could it be that by that point he will have done is quota for the year!

:ugh:

[MancBoy]

I had to laugh when I read the emails at home last night.

What a muppet!!

He is the worst team player in NATS yet is after a team response to a ridiculous request.

I think he forgets that it is because of his abuse of the aava agreement when it first started that the 14 day rule was introduced.

This guy thinks nothing of screwing over people on his own sectors in order to look after his own neck.

I notice the unions response was also cc'd to the new GM and Mr Foster.

Lets hope they take some action!

[DTY/LKS]

The rumour is he is in today, working a .............. you guessed it, an AAVA!
Also heard this morn that he might be making a visit to Level 4!

[MancBoy]

Not before time!

They might want to double check why he is so good at speed control yet he got two close together last week whilst working................................an AAVA

[250 kts]

You do have to question the level of intelligence of the individual who uses a company PC to ask all of his colleagues for, what is paramount to industrial action.:ugh::ugh:

[Roffa]

There are reasons why the union hasn't sought to increase the amount paid for AAVAs.

Maybe said emailer, I've no idea who it is by the way, should have spoken to them first before starting his one man greed campaign.

[45 before POL]

Quite agree roffa....the union is there to put forward suggestions and proposals. AAVA's at the end of the day are an individuals choice. Comes down to supply and demand....one man emails for action are not the way forward.

[250 kts]

If he can call for a unilteral ban in one direction then surely management can impose one on him-no more AAVAs for him in the future would be a sensible move i reckon. And think of the opportunities this would open up for others to do them together with the inevitable boost to morale on the unit that he can't do 'em any more.:D:D

[PPRuNe Radar]

If he can call for a unilteral ban in one direction then surely management can impose one on him-no more AAVAs for him in the future would be a sensible move i reckon.

I think the union would cry foul since it is an agreement negotiated for all staff without any recourse to prejudice being available to management. Otherwise there could be a lot of cherry picking going on and AAVA schemes to suit different groups of people or the application of favouritism with no come back. No doubt the gentleman in question would ask the union to take up his case and win :(

Personally, I think his peers should deal with him. Spread the word on who it is and what they have done at a local level ... and watch the fun :ok:

[250 kts]

But I reckon NATS could use that as a disciplinary sanction if they chose to go down that route. I'd be surprised if the union would kick up too much of a fuss if that were the case.

Every one knows exactly who it is as he sent it from his NATS address and signed it!! Not sure peer pressure will do too much to this particular individual.:ugh:

I do have to say that the local union response was spot on though which has not always been the case.:D

[notared]

Come on chaps who is the mystery man? put me out of my misery

[Mahaba]

MACC traffic UP from last year 7.7%
LACC traffic up from last year 3.8%

MACC stil unable to split sectors when needed and now man and boying sectors so delays are not racked up.

Those are NATS figures. Official.
And still no-one's listening

[Arkady]

Are people still doing AAVAs?

[The Fat Controller]

Lucky you !!
Still having the staff to be able to double-man a sector !!
Wait until you get the hang of single-strip operations and then you can open 2 sectors with 1 on each !!
And somebody please answer the ORIGINAL question, are AAVAs being worked or not ?

[Mahaba]

There are a small few who are still working AAVA's. Good luck to them if they are. It's not an official ban; that wouldn't be legal now would it? The majority are not doing them. Most are being done by ATCO 1's. I think it's expected of them and they maybe feel the pressure to do them from above.

[Me Me Me Me]

How many constitutes a small few? From what I've seen it's a fair number still. Money talks.

[ifaxu]

slight thread creep I know but contrary to some of my colleagues I think the union reps at swanwick behaved appallingly in response to a members feelings on the remuneration offered for AVA working.
Whilst not agreeing with his argument I believe he had the right to raise his concerns and that the union could have kept the matter as an internal issue without involving the unit management. Some union reps need to remember that they are not go betweens who just inform the membership of the results of their cosy meetings with management over a nice meal and several pints.
Every member of our union has the right to question union policy and not expect a spiteful reaction from their representatives.
I reiterate that I do not agree with the gentlemans argument but feel he has been harshly dealt with by his colleagues and his union.
People need to think how they would like to be dealt with if they were in a similar situation to him. We all make mistakes at work and this wolfpack culture does a disservice to both our professionalism and our compassion.
As for bringing individual incidents into the argument that is beneath reproach and not worthy of the playground never mind the workplace.

[anotherthing]

Mahaba wrote:

MACC traffic UP from last year 7.7%
LACC traffic up from last year 3.8%

MACC stil unable to split sectors when needed and now man and boying sectors so delays are not racked up


At the risk of sounding simple, but surely if you have the manpower to man and boy sectors i.e. double the number of controllers on a sector, you then obviously have the manpower to split sectors? Only reason for the answer to be 'no' is because you have a validation problem i.e. some sectors overborne with staff whilst others are short.... i.e. a local management problem/cock up.

[mainecoon]

you miss understand man and boy

we always have tac and plan
man and boy is someone listening and helping on the tac position

three people instead of four on sectors that should be split

last point the v in ava means its your choice if you do it not some legal contract
based point:)

[anotherthing]

yep, I was taking man and boy to mean what we do in TC, i.e. we double up on a position i.e. one 'Tac' with someone behind as a safety number as well as prompting control actions to aid expedition.

We don't work Tac and Planner at TC, but if we did, and it seemed busy, as a planner I know most of us would be double checking the TACs actions anyways as a matter of course.

We do it as coordinators when coordinating for four or five sector quadrants... no one ever seems to take offence at the odd nudge now and again

[45 before POL]

another thing.....quite agree with comments.. these days as traffic gets busier , no one should object to assistance.... accept we are human and not robots. Many of us have been saved by those beedy eyes behind:ok: Atsa's and atco's.

[ImnotanERIC]

I can't agree more. The one time you assume someone knows about something you have spotted and don't nudge them is the time they don't know. we are all one team