REX advertising O/S [Archive]

remoak

30th Jun 2007, 01:39

Haughtney1 is absolutely right, and the most of the rest of you are hypochrites.

You want Oz airlines to only recruit ozmates, but when the hordes of Aussies head off to Europe and take British/Irish/French jobs (to name just a few of the countries infested with expat ozmates), that is fine! Talk about a double standard.

The news may not have reached the aviation backwaters of the South Pacific yet, but aviation is a global market these days, and that includes pilots. If you have (or can get) the appropriate licence, your abilities are in demand in many countries. I am not surprised that REX are looking overseas, they are wise to do so... best way to get pilots that are both skilled and experienced, and want to stay there.

Best thing for Euro pilots would be to send all the Aussies home... of course that would end recruitment in oz for years.

Citizenship and work permits are two-way streets, and the rules usually bend pretty easily when required by a labour shortage. Just as it should be...

Oh, and have some of you ever considered that the reason that you haven't been contacted by companies like REX, is because they have looked at your CV and references... and found you wanting?

Jet_A_Knight

30th Jun 2007, 02:16

If the Europeans didn't need those vermin 'Ozmates' in Europe to fly their planes - they wouldn't be there flying them - period.

The Kavorka

30th Jun 2007, 02:20

REX are finished....I say again REX are finished...

These pricks continue to try everything other than pay guys more....:mad::mad:

Well. guess what....now it's too late and they are looking o/s,

Who in their right mind is going to come here and get paid $45000 to be an F/O on a clapped out old saab!!!

The only place I can think of is india.....good luck!!!

I recommend all REX pilots reading this double your efforts to get out before the doors shut.....

Gearupandorrf

30th Jun 2007, 02:43

Actually guys,

I think the market that REX are trying to poach are some of the Aussie/ Kiwi Pilots already working in the UK/ Europe.

The advertisement clearly states that applicants must have the right to live and work in Australia. As far as I'm aware, DIMA have deleted 'Aircraft Pilot" from their list of "in demand" skills/ qualifications- which means that REX would have to demonstrate to DIMA that there are no suitable Australian applicants- which as we all know is a load of bollocks.

So based on the above- the only applicants who are going to be elegible for this, are Aussie and Kiwi Pilots already working over there.

And- let's be honest- the sort of T's & C's that REX have on offer make up a part of the reasoning as to why so many of these Pilots moved OS in the first place.

For any concerned parties- I would recommend contacting your local MP and bringing this situation to light. Before you do, try and get some stats on how many professionally Licensed Pilots there are in Australia so that you can supply some credible information.

REX can't legally do this.

ACMS

30th Jun 2007, 02:54

2 words boys...........................Supply and Demand

The only reason Australians are employed overseas is Demand exceeds Supply.

Quite simple really hey.:ok:

The only reason I work for CX is that they cannot crew the Aircraft with enough locals, end of story.

So until Australia is genuinely in that position, then not one single person from O/S should be employed. Aussies first I'm happy to say.

That's how the rest of the world do it.

MTOW

30th Jun 2007, 02:58

Not too many people here appear to want to hear it, but this is yet another result of the debacle of 1989 - when we first saw instances of'Welcome aboard folks for **** flight 1234 Wagga to, sorry Wagga Wagga, to Sid-e-ney. Your Captain today is Chuck and the S/O is Mohammed.but the "Wagga Wagga" then was "Sydney" or "Melbourne" and the aeroplanes were somewhat bigger than a Saab.

And I hate to cruel the pitch for those bemoaning the "hordes" of Ozmates now flying in Europe, for even if most of those "Ozmates" have the coarse, barbaric accent of the Antipodes, the fact is, the vast majority (if not all) of them would not be able to work in Europe unless he or she had right of abode in Europe, either by holding an EU passport as well as his or her Oz passport, or by having an EU citizen grandparent, giving him or her right of return.

I was one of "them" who went to Europe eighteen years ago and got all the same "what are you doing here?" grief, the questioners conveniently forgetting the many Brit and European charter pilots (in some cases, THEM***ingSELVES!!!) who damn near tripped over each other in their haste to get out to Australia in 1989 to have a very well paid working holiday, thus ensuring the dispute in Australia would linger on and not be resolved, as it would have to have been if they had stayed away.

Anyone flying for a living in Australia today who says we need to put that year behind us and get on with life (as many seem to do) has to cop this and whatever else is handed out to them in the industry without complaint.

haughtney1

30th Jun 2007, 09:37

Jet_A_Knight and ACMS, I actually sympathize with your sentiments and in many ways I used to have similar thoughts. Times change, as do labour markets....you guys need to wake up and smell the coffee, the world is a different place to the one you want it to be.
Gearupandorrf makes a valid point, REX are probably trying to poach a few homesick S340 drivers, although if you look on the jobs website you will see that a certain operator is advertising for S340 captains and offering 6000 euros per months, which I doubt REX could compete with.
At the end of the day REX appear to be looking to fill slots with experienced S340 drivers because it is a CHEAPER way to do it.
If the guys are licensed, are legal and capable..then IMHO it doesn't matter if they were born in sh1tkicker USA or donkey fart Tajikastan.

ACMS

30th Jun 2007, 14:26

I don't have a problem with Australian guys/girls coming home to take a job. I do have a problem with non-Australian guys/girls coming to Oz and taking jobs we have Australians for at home.

You couldn't get a job in the U.S.
You can't get a job in Europe

If we don't have the Pilot's available then fair enough, but WE DO HAVE PILOTS available to get the jobs.

I'll say it again, the ONLY reason Australians work overseas is because their locals cannot fill all the job positions and Aircraft would be parked. They don't do it because they love Aussies and want to help us.

:ok:

metrosmoker

1st Jul 2007, 00:36

G.A Boy is absolutley right.
Qualified and capable locals should be given jobs over foreigners.
I have had the dis/pleasure of dealing with Sandy, so I know how the phone calls go.
I know for example of a very experienced ex cheif pilot of a former N.T charter company. Used to have around 10 aircraft inlcuding a turbine, so he has some experience. I am pretty sure he flies for the RFDS or air ambulance now on the east coast. He would have the necessary and relevant experience, good guy. And I`m sure there are alot like him who can`t get a look in. One has to ask why?

gas-chamber

1st Jul 2007, 00:39

Rex would not really expect applications from experienced drivers, surely? Anyone in Europe with 1500 hours total and 500 hours on turboprops would expect a direct entry command. By our standards that does not seem very much experience, but over there it is considered OK for left seat of a commuter turbo-prop.
Could the Rex check department cope with that concept?

boofta

1st Jul 2007, 01:01

Surveillance,Rex,Eastern, all clutching at straws. How to continue paying
****e to pilots. Try recruiting overseas,try dropping the minimums, try every
low trick they can think of!
Its not going to work, you morons are all going to have to pay!!!
You want people to work in places like Broome, try a fly in fly out contract.
It works for the mining industry, 120,000 for truck drivers,fly in fly out.
All the clever HR managers will have to explain the eventual leap in pilot
salaries, after all they created it.
The reason you can't get pilots is you have screwed them so much that
the youngin's don't want to fly under your current conditions.
It's called supply and demand, you may have missed the lectures during
your MBA courses. Wankers.

404 Titan

1st Jul 2007, 02:28

The add in question isn’t asking for foreign pilots to apply, it is asking for “pilots with a right to work in Australia” to apply. As the job of pilot isn’t on the immigration list as a job that is in short supply of suitable applicants the only people who can apply are Australian citizens, Australian permanent resident Visa holders, i.e. through marriage or previous work in Australia and Kiwi’s. At the end of the day expats will only come home and work for Rex if the conditions are competitive to what they are on now or could possibly get in the current environment. I strongly doubt many will bight.
Regional Express
SAAB 340 PILOTS
AUSTRALIA
ON APPLICATION

Civilian licensed pilots able to convert to Australian Commercial or Air Transport Pilot License.
Command Multi Engine Instrument Rating;
Able to obtain Civil Aviation Safety Authority Class 1 Medical Certificate;
Minimum of 800 hours total flight time;
Minimum of 350 hours command or ICUS flight time on multi-engine aircraft under the I.F.R;
Able to obtain right to work in Australia. For further information visit www.rex.com.au or email [email protected]

neville_nobody

1st Jul 2007, 05:25

Just goes to show what a crock Minimum experience really is. 12 months ago Rex would have been getting on the "ICUS isn't command" bandwagon now they are advertising for it!

fender

1st Jul 2007, 05:32

There are Selfish greedy pigs and then there are pilots.

bizzybody

1st Jul 2007, 07:03

i thnk i am about to get a PPRUN bashing but
Regional Express
SAAB 340 PILOTS
AUSTRALIA
ON APPLICATION

Civilian licensed pilots able to convert to Australian Commercial or Air Transport Pilot License.
Command Multi Engine Instrument Rating;
Able to obtain Civil Aviation Safety Authority Class 1 Medical Certificate;
Minimum of 800 hours total flight time;
Minimum of 350 hours command or ICUS flight time on multi-engine aircraft under the I.F.R;
Able to obtain right to work in Australia. For further information visit www.rex.com.au (http://www.rex.com.au/) or email
This doesnt seem too hard to achieve.... if they are paying 45k pa for someone with only these mins then i think they will have a great chance to fill the position with aussie pilots...

you people having a bitch about their pay conditions.... dont work for em... simple. If you think you are worth more than 45k pa then look for a higher paying job...

someone with these hours are people that have been instructing or in a smaller charter company that will love 45k per year to drive a SAAB.

You people that are bitching about the conditions and pay at REX how many hours do you have? more..... less....... what are you conditions like at the moment.... do you have a job..... or are you waiting for the bus to arrive.....

Not saying you are but there are people here that are still waiting for the bus to arrive.

Under Dog

1st Jul 2007, 07:49

ACMS

1st Jul 2007, 09:15

I have a good friend that has about 1000 hrs with 400 to 500 multi. he would LOVE to join Rex. But he is currently earning 70k working in another industry. With a young family why the hell would he want to get paid 45k for the opportunity to fly a SAAB340B.
So he wont be taking up his dream to work for an airline. He can't afford to.

And I'll bet he is not alone.

45K to fly a SAAB????????? you must be kidding Rex.

Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower

1st Jul 2007, 09:54

Haughtney1,

I think you'll find that companies can only import workers with DIMMA's approval, for this to happen the company has to prove there are no ozzies that can do the job.

That is relatively difficult, it is pretty much the same worldwide, you can only import workers when there are no locals qualified, which there may infact be in this case.

KRUSTY 34

1st Jul 2007, 10:42

Rex Management are hoping like hell that this situation will "correct" itself sooner rather than later. Unfortunately for them I think it will be a long time coming.

In the meantime, they will be parking airframes, destroying their plans for expansion and cancelling services. All because of a philosophical and almost manic resistance to even consider improving the T&C's of their most valuble resource.

Bizzybody is right. If you don't like the cr@p money, don't take the job. If you are disillusioned working for REX, move on, there are lots of greener pastures out there.

As there is no real prospect of replacing many of them, management will suddenly sit up one morning and say "what the f#@k happened!

Defies logic!

Metro36

1st Jul 2007, 11:34

REX
They pay very well...! ($82,000 to fly a 34 seater Saab)
I can quite easily live on that out of Adelaide (double the average earnings)
If you can't accept the fact that just because you have a PASSION for aviation then it's your birth right to earn big dosh, then Rex and most of Oz Av companies these days will fob you.
Life does not revolve around a "pilot".
We go to work because we enjoy the fact that we are operating aeroplanes.
Some Jet, some Turboprop, some C210.
How many of you have engineering degrees?
Rex needs to to look further (abroard) because it can't sit still with almost 10-20 pilots handing in resignations/mth.
Rex is a wonderful company to work for...
:ok:Ben

bizzybody

1st Jul 2007, 12:25

very well said Metro!!!!!!!

Bizz

galdian

1st Jul 2007, 12:45

Gee Whiz
Assuming it's true I didn't see the quoted resignation rate of 10-20 per month anywhere in their ads.
Might encourage anyone with half a brain (or more) to ask WHY do so many leave??

Nice post Metro 36 - eventually the moderators will get up a "tongue in cheek" smilie up and running so any subtelty of posts can be clarified, for the time being.. :ok:
(or is "tongue in cheek" too regional for Pprune?? just asking.)

Aussie

1st Jul 2007, 12:57

Where are these 10-20 rex pilots going to? QF, VB, J*?????? Or O/S?

airamerica

1st Jul 2007, 14:25

What a useless topic.

Most of you guys need to wake up to the fact that there are as many aussies working abroad,flying mr ''Mohamed's'', ''Chan's''or ''Nigel's'' around the world,so tone down the Xenophobic outlook and get out a bit more.

Thanks to TITAN404 for pointing out the obvious,because had the topic starter read the add properly,then he wouldn't have started the topic in the first place.

Right to be in Aus is a prerequisite.............

KRUSTY 34

1st Jul 2007, 21:27

:confused:Metro36,

Not quite sure how to take your post?

galdian I believe is alluding that you are taking the p$ss! But I'm not so sure. If your post is being subtle, then it may be a tad too much.

If you are fairdinkum, then I really can't believe what I'm hearing. I've been with said company a lot longer than your 2 or 3 year stint previously with Kendell, and I can tell you now, I have never seen anything as bad as this.

Untill recently, the increase in salary for a regional F/O moving on to the lowest paying Jet airline job was around 60%. Now as the larger carriers start scambling for the few remaining "suitable" candidates, the increase is nearing 100%! If REX does not move quickly to redress this balance they will be scr#wed.

It won't be such a great place to work when you are demoted back to F/O as the cutback in services start to bite. And don't think it can't happen, I've seen it before.

Life does not revolve around a "pilot". The ability to provide a reliable and safe airservice however does.

It's people like you who undervalue our profession that has led in part to the crisis that we now face.

After more than 22 years in this business, I still have as much passion and love for the job as when when I first started. But when we see professional aircrew earning less than street sweepers (and yes I have swept streets in the past), then a reduction in safety and reliability can only follow.

If your post is tongue in cheek, please accept my appologies.

jarjar

2nd Jul 2007, 01:46

You guys should try living in perth, 60,000 is the average wage, average house price 530,000, Skilled labourers, sparky's, plumbers etc all in high demand charging accordingly. Most of them wont get out of bed for less than $500 a day. What I think alot of posters are getting at is the fact that pilots are now becoming in high demand, why then are we not holding out to push up our worth.
People will come back with the old " I love flying, I can accept 45,000 a year" , this guys and gals is not a job its a hobby.
My brother loves his job, hes an electrician, doesnt stop him charging $750 a day.

JarJar

KRUSTY 34

2nd Jul 2007, 03:06

Thanks jarjar,

my point exactly

ACMS

2nd Jul 2007, 03:58

keep racing to the bottom boys.

geez you sell yourselves short.

I know I know, we love our hobby ( job ) and don't really need money, just give me a shiney new Jet and I'll fly it for lunch money ( McDonalds )

:{

The Kavorka

2nd Jul 2007, 05:01

Metro36

I totally disagree with you.....$86000 for a Captain is a disgrace..

I take you have worked your ass off like many others to get to the left hand seat, and these scum bags pay you this rubbish.

I have worked for REX and couldn't wait to get out...My debt level was raising working for them....and the conditions, well we all know about that..

REX continue to post record profits and do nothing to retain there crew numbers, natural attrition, I think not..:mad::mad:

Metro36, I suggest you do your very best to get out of this two bit operation before you no longer have a job to go to...They are screwed my friend, I know of at least 40+ people leaving before the end of the year and I doubt they will be able to replace them...and VB/JQ/QF/TGR are only just starting there massive recruiting drives!!!

R.I.P REX......................................................:ok :

bizzybody

2nd Jul 2007, 05:25

"Bizzybody"
Thats fine buddy but try living in a major city on 45k with a family .(try Sydney for example)
Economically it does not add up regardless how much you love aviation.
There are plenty of pilots out there that would love to fly for REX but just couldn't afford to

I Have and i did but everyone is different. All im saying is that alot these pilot THINK!!!! the are worth more then go find greener grasses.

Better still get an AOC and start one yourself. It just ****s me when people complain about wages because it is you (whoever it is) that signed the dotted line.

jarjar

2nd Jul 2007, 05:48

Bizzy Body,
Its not always "them" who have signed on the dotted line, quite often the case is that pilots at other airlines have accepted low t&c's, therefore when Eba or awa time comes along, said pilot who wants to hold out for better t&c's can't because he/she has no bargaining power.

If you want to work for the salary your on, go for it, but I bet if a new Eba is signed or management approach you with a 20,000 pa pay rise, you wouldn't knock it back, just because you love your job.

JarJar

404 Titan

2nd Jul 2007, 06:08

bizzybody & Metro36

Your argument is very one sided and to be quite frank very naïve. The whole “Work Choices” legislation was introduced by the Howard government so that market forces could determine wages and conditions for Australian workers. During the bad times employers in Australia have been very good at playing off “Supply & Demand” to reduce wages and conditions across the board. Now that the tide has turned and labour is in such short supply workers need to get their sh*t together and take advantage of the prosperous times. In some industries they already have, i.e. the resources sector. Yes some business will go out of business because they are uncompetitive but that is the free market place at work. Just because you may think your employer can’t afford the wages you think you deserve doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be trying to get it. Take advantage of “Supply and Demand” because at the end of the day it will dictate what you are really worth.

Icarus2001

2nd Jul 2007, 06:23

Yes but Titan I believe that the only way to take advantage of supply and demand properly is to have the right to collective bargaining. That is exactly why the Liberal government has pushed individual AWA's. When EBA or award conditions are negotiated in the current climate then B scale tricks such as NJS tried will not wash.
If a Rudd Labor government gets in two things will happen: 1. New AWA's will stop being offered once the legislation changes with the senate seat changes and 2. There will have to be transition legislation to allow employees on an AWA back to either an EBA or the Award. Only then will you see real supply and demand occur, wages will rise and companies will finally have to compete for the qualified staff, just as other industry sectors have done.
It is pretty clear to me that mining companies do not wish to pay $120,000 for a bogan truck driver who left school in year 10 to drive their equipment, but hey the reality is that they have to. Brett Godfrey, Geoff Dixon, Allan Joyce etc will soon have to change their tune. That would be why Qantas have decided on a new training company for cadets and DE pilots, they know what is coming next year.

2008 The year of the Australian Pilot

404 Titan

2nd Jul 2007, 06:37

Icarus2001

You have no argument with me regarding collective bargaining. I think that is one of the contentious areas the Howard government have identified for change before the next election.

I have no problems with AWA's as such as long as the details are then freely made available so that everyone then knows the bargaining power they truly have. As it currently stands the details of AWA’s are kept secret which then leads to abuses by employers because of the upper hand they have.

bizzybody

2nd Jul 2007, 09:34

I agree it is very one sided. I am an employer not an employee

im not going to disagee with some things that are geing said here butjust for a minute try and think about it from the employers point of view. If there is someone out there cheaper that can offer the same thing then why knock them back.

We (as i think most do) have a certain type of pilot we look for when we are recruiting. We are not after a person with several thousand hours and expects to be paid the massive dollars. I have had a person during an interview say to to me this is what i want to get paid... big bux. If its above what i pay the pilots now,,, then no deal. For the record my pilots are happy with the way they get paid. Based on the aircraft that they are flying (not saabs)(as of yesterday) of course they always want more but thats just human nature.

I THINK rex might be the same. They know what type of pilot that want and thats what they are willing pay to get them. They will get them. Its a case of either the rex job as any either suits your needs or it doesnt.

By the sounds of it there are a hell of alot more employee's on here than employers.

BUT!!!!!! to be fair.... is rex only paying 45k for the pleasure??? i havnt seen the ads.

Fo he record Yes i think its low. My pilots re on more than that

Bizz

(keep the PPRUN bashings alive)

Hatchet Harry

2nd Jul 2007, 10:19

Airamerica you D!ckhe@d, read my initial post and tell me where the xenophobic statement is????

For your information (due to your emotive reaction) I posted the link to highlight the fact that REX are advertising their vacancies abroad to those that can work here (Right to live and work in Australia) but are living overseas.

There are many suitable people here in Oz that have busted their backs to scrape together those hours and would love to work for REX. It's a shame they get overlooked..... :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Nothing Xenophobic about it you Goose:{:{:{

404 Titan

2nd Jul 2007, 10:38

bizzybody

I agree that it is the employer’s job to try and keep costs down, but for true supply and demand to work in the employment market place all cards must be on the table, not just those that the employer wants to reveal. This goes for both parties. It’s like buying a house. I want to know what other people in the same street and suburb have paid recently for similar properties so I don’t over pay. Of course the agent would probably prefer that I didn’t have this info because their job is to get the highest possible price. The info is freely available to the buyer if they look and is of immense help when negotiating for a property. If the employer ends up paying too much for their labour they run the risk of being uncompetitive. If they pay too little and/or don’t look after their employees, then those same employees may just walk out the door to find an employer who will look after them.

galdian

2nd Jul 2007, 10:49

Hatchett old boy
- a bex, a cup of tea and a good lie down may not go astray (with all that head banging going on.) :ok:
Not that I disagree with your sentiment.
I would suggest this is a logical (and sadly fair) approach by an employer - widen the field in difficult (for them) times, at this stage both Rex and the previous ones to take this track (the surveillance crowd) are only requesting those with work rights.
Of course there are many people who meet their current requirements but who are "unsuitable" for some perceived reason - and I suppose it's only fair that the people who pay the wages have some say in who is/is not acceptable but if it's because the interview panel decide they are unacceptable because they "part their hair on the wrong side" then that's a little OTT (example only, not fact) ... as far as I know :E

But where is the "line in the sand?"
Where is the point where Rex (as an example) could go to the government of the day and say "we have advertised, there are no SUITABLE people available, we MUST recruit people who would have no rights to work here and YOU MUST approve this!"

That's the point where gloves must come off and all hell break loose.

The upside - been in the game a few years and when I was starting you missed out on someone like Rex you went out and slashed your wrists because there were no other Rex's.
Those starting today have options far and beyond Rex in far shorter times.

It's always been a game for those with the desire to stay in the game and not drop out - difference is your opportunities are immeasurably greater!
Chill out and enjoy the ride. :ok: (but still maintain the rage!)

airamerica

2nd Jul 2007, 11:02

Hatchet harry,

oh why should I even bother.................................it takes one to know one.

AllInGoodTime

2nd Jul 2007, 11:05

Just checked REX's website tonight and under career opportunities they have removed the listing for Pilots? Jobs for LAME's posted, but no Pilots.
What the????

KRUSTY 34

2nd Jul 2007, 11:55

AllinGoodTime,

Word from a senior manager in the last few days, "pilots aren't the problem, its engineers that are causing us the most grief"!

Pilots are a major problem of course, but the engineers are now being sought after by the other airlines for the same reason. Some of these guys have very specialised tickets that many brought with them and have been with the airline for years. Their unique qualifications make them virtually irreplacable! Yet the company appear to be treating their workplace conditions with the same inaction as the pilot group!

It will only take a few of these guys to move on to literally bring REX to a stop.

Absolute madness!

boofta

2nd Jul 2007, 15:12

Frantic activity by Rex management. Advertising for pilots one day, then
just as suddenly not advertising. So what's up boys and girls?
Do you need pilots or not?
Perhaps the flak on this forum got to them!
Time will tell, my guess is they were so inundated with foreign applicants
that they pulled their little wagons into a circle.
Now what to do next, should we lay low, pretend we don't need pilots.
I've got an idea!!
Ask for expressions of interest in a cadet program, running out of scammy
ideas! Dammit we may have TO PAY more to get some drivers.
Tick, Tick, Tick, the big wheel slowly turns, or has it already done one
big revolution.

KRUSTY 34

2nd Jul 2007, 21:40

Interesting thoughts boofta,

and probably not too far off the mark. The idea of not advertising for pilots may be an attempt to take some of the heat out of the situation. It wont help the crisis of course, but it may give the illusion that all is not as bad as it seems.

REX do need pilots, and lots of them! Probably 50 by the end of the year to keep pace with expected attrition, and around 140 over the next 2 years to meet fleet expansion plans. Not to mention further losses to the major carriers into 2008-2009. If this situation doesn't escalate, and it probably will, then on present trends REX can expect to lose between 50 & 100 pilots a year over the next 2-3 years!!!

The idea of attracting overseas applicants is just nonsence! Management line is that we are just a regional airline and cannot compete with the higher salaries being paid by the majors. Well guess what, thats where any overseas applicants are going, not to REX.

Don't think lifestyle is the answer, that went a long time ago.

remoak

3rd Jul 2007, 22:40

I take you have worked your ass off like many others to get to the left hand seat, and these scum bags pay you this rubbish.

I just love the way that, just because you paid you dues in aviation, you think that REX are somehow obligated to pay you what you THINK you are worth (as opposed to what you are REALLY worth... which in this market, is sweet FA...)

I just love the way that you think that you, as a pilot, know more about airline management than the people who have been successfully doing it for years (record profits, apparently...).

I love the way that you think that REX have not carefully considered their recruitment policy, and that only you can see what might happen if they get it wrong.

I love the way that you think that that they are scumbags, simply because they will not do what YOU want them to... whether it makes economic sense or not.

I love the way that you think that they will fail, just because you want them to... retribution for not paying you the fortune that you think that you are worth, I suppose.

My guess is that they will continue on, making more and more money, and will attempt to recruit people without bloated egos and a completely warped appreciation of their value to the company. If I was them, I would be looking to offer the slots to Indian or Chinese pilots who need the experience, but don't come with the attitude issues that so many Aussie pilots seem to possess. I'm sure that an arrangement could be made between REX and the Chinese or Indian airlines that would bypass the immigration issues - it could be presented as an export opportunity.

Frankly, if I was running REX, I would pay money not to have to recruit some of the self-obsessed wannabes that post on here.

Di_Vosh

3rd Jul 2007, 23:16

Just checked REX's website tonight and under career opportunities they have removed the listing for Pilots? Jobs for LAME's posted, but no Pilots.
What the????

Their website has been updated, and the listing for Pilots is there again.

DIVOSH!

boofta

3rd Jul 2007, 23:21

Brilliant Remoak
Just one glaring problem, India and China have bigger pilot shortage
problems than Rex. As a wannabee with 40 years of insignificant
experience, and absolutely no idea of the depth of intelligence
needed to run a DEMAND driven enterprise- I stoop in awe.
Hail to airline managers everywhere!
If only they could introduce world standard salaries to pilots in Aust.
I repeat my contention that Rex management have pulled their pilot
advertising due to a last cynical attempt to scam Aussie pilots.
Advertise for Chinese MBA's to run all the airlines in Aust, there must
be thousands graduating each year! That would save heaps.
They can ALL do your job and mine so lets advertise for them.
Damn immigration laws, damn insurance minimums, if only pilots
would shut up, we could use 200 hour slave labour, damn pilots!

KRUSTY 34

4th Jul 2007, 00:51

Nice wind-up remoak!

Got the horn

4th Jul 2007, 01:14

Qantaslink had an ad in the NZ Herald today asking for 700 hrs Total Time and 250 multi. Bring it on!! Who's next?! :}

remoak

4th Jul 2007, 20:50

Just one glaring problem, India and China have bigger pilot shortage
problems than Rex.

Correct, but the biggest problem they have is a lack of training capacity, and a standards problem.

Back in the '90s when I was working for a well-known British carrier, we made an absolute mint training up Dragonair First Officers. They would come to us for six months/300 hours, we would train them up, and they would go back ready to slot in to the airline. We won two ways; we were paid by Dragonair to train these guys, and we didn't have to employ first officers. If REX were smart, they would be looking to do the same with Indian or Chinese pilots. They could make money and avoid having to employ uppity "world-owes-me-a-living" locals. Immigration issues pretty much cease to exist when you are dealing with an international commercial contract (essentially an export business), as opposed to indviduals.

If only they could introduce world standard salaries to pilots in Aust.

A common misconception. What is a world standard salary? Is it what a new Ryanair F/O earns (which is two thirds of f*** all), or is what an Indian F/O earns? What is it? One thing is for sure, most Aussie pilots wildly over-value their worth. Most are still thinking in pre-89 terms. The rest of the world has long since moved on, but Oz pilots haven't figured it out yet. If you think you have it tough, try living on what the aforementioned Ryanair pilot earns, and living in Europe to boot. Not easy.

They can ALL do your job and mine so lets advertise for them.

Yes, they can, so wake up and smell the coffee. They will work for less and do just as good a job. Ryanair and Easyjet figured this one out years ago, which is why they have so many Eastern Europeans in their ranks now. It's a world market now, and smug Aussie wannabes who think it is their birthright to waltz into a highly-paid commuter job are in for a shock.

damn insurance minimums

Completely irrelevant, insurance premiums apply equally no matter where you come from. It's a matter of experience.

if only pilots
would shut up

By all means keep yelling. Those of us living in the real world will have a laugh as we see you comprehensively failing to advance your careers.

I remember the last time Aussie pilots decided to make a noise, how did that go?

But hey, good luck. If only wishing made it so, huh?

haughtney1

4th Jul 2007, 21:40

Here here Remoak.......I'm starting to think people can't see the wood for the bloody tree's

remoak

4th Jul 2007, 22:20

No, they live in their own private little universe over there. It would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.

I particularly like the "REX won't give me what I want, therefore REX is going to fail" logic. Priceless.

Murray Cod

4th Jul 2007, 22:50

Yep,
I know quite a few in the same boat as you.
I can't work out what these employers are thinking. Sounds like a GA operation. Maybe your application form has fallen behind the beer fridge at REX headquarters or got lost in the back of the chief pilots 1974 toyota crown.
MC

Jet_A_Knight

5th Jul 2007, 01:12

It's a world market now

You are WRONG. Employment is a protected market. Unless there is a skill-set shortage allowing immigration of people with the required skill set. Not so in this case in Australia.

Ryanair and Easyjet figured this one out years ago, which is why they have so many Eastern Europeans in their ranks now.

I would hazard a guess that these Eastern Europeans are citizens of E.U states, and have the appropriate right of work & abode in the E.U.

smug Aussie wannabes who think it is their birthright to waltz into a highly-paid commuter job are in for a shock.

It IS a BIRTHRIGHT. It's the same around the world. Citizens are given first shot at local employment -everywhere - PERIOD.

Go try and get a job at Fedex without U.S Citizenship or 5 years residency - see if they think that aviation employment is a global market.

The reality - that you and a couple of other posters don't get - is that no nation is obligated to open its labour market to foreigners. Unless they have to. I doubt you have your job wherever it is on the basis of a foreign passport and no residency or employment right - otherwise the government of wherever-the-fukc-you are would have you deported.

My final quote, from our hallowed :rolleyes: Prime Minister, The Hon. John W. Howard:

We will decide who comes to this country, and the circumstances under which they come.

The same song is sung around the world in many different languages.

Icarus2001

5th Jul 2007, 01:39

One thing is for sure, most Aussie pilots wildly over-value their worth. Most are still thinking in pre-89 terms. The one major flaw in your logic is that pilot salaries WENT UP after 1989, by a significant amount.
VB commenced the pay for endorsement, low salary jet scale slide in Australia as a confidence trick by JR who used his mates from O/S to get the company "off the ground". Now, even they have had to meet the market with new FO's starting on $93,000 and Captains up around $180,000. The issue with Rex, M@c@ir, Skippers, NJS etc is that they have not realised that unless they become attractive they will be parking aircraft. That is the reality. I always come back to the mining sector, do you think they want to pay people $120,000 pa to drive a truck or even $70,000 to wash the dishes? No, they know they have to or the labour will move to a more attractive area. Traditionally flying has been seen as a sexy career and so less inducement has been required, we have now found the bottom and guess what people do not want to be pilots anymore...http://casa.gov.au/fcl/fcl_req.htm
2008 Year of the Australian Pilot

The Kavorka

5th Jul 2007, 02:39

Interesting to see that the number of ATPL holders has not increased in 5 years.

I bet there are a lot of baby boomers ready to retire. The sh#t will hit the fan then!!

remoak

5th Jul 2007, 11:30

You are WRONG. Employment is a protected market. Unless there is a skill-set shortage allowing immigration of people with the required skill set. Not so in this case in Australia.

Really? Tell me, who owns most of Darwin and large parts of the Gold Coast? I'll give you a hint: it isn't Australians. And who do they employ? Not Australians... More to the point, in aviation, it is relatively common for nationals from one country to find employment in another country to fulfill a need. Examples would include the American Mesaba pilots currently working in Ireland on US licences (Ireland being an EU country), and the Canadians that used to work in the UK under the Air 2000/Air 3000 arrangement. It can easily happen in Australia too, because if half the posters here are correct, several desperate commuter airlines will have no difficulty showing that they cannot find any qualified pilots at the salary levels on offer. The economic case is a valid consideration. I'm sure the '89ers thought their jobs were protected too... turns out the service they once provided was more important than their continued employment, and the government acted accordingly. Complete the following sentence: Those who do not learn from their mistakes are doomed to......

I would hazard a guess that these Eastern Europeans are citizens of E.U states, and have the appropriate right of work & abode in the E.U.

...and you would be wrong. The countries concerned only joined the EU in the last year or so, but their nationals have been flying for Ryanair in particular, for a lot longer than that (over six years to my certain knowledge).

It IS a BIRTHRIGHT. It's the same around the world. Citizens are given first shot at local employment -everywhere - PERIOD.

If you really believe that, you need to actually visit the rest of the world, because your are clearly completely out of touch with how international employment works.

is that no nation is obligated to open its labour market to foreigners. Unless they have to.

Nobody is saying that they are... of course your statement is an oxymoron, as if they have to, they are clearly obligated.

We will decide who comes to this country, and the circumstances under which they come.

Of course. That is exactly what happened in 89.

Your error is in assuming that the Howard government would not open the doors to foreign pilots if the need arose, because he has clearly stated that he reserves the right to do so. Your quote cuts both ways. I have no doubt whatsoever that foreign pilots would be invited into Oz if the regionals could not recruit the people they wanted, in the same way that Australia actively recruits overseas for many other professional occupations - doctors, nurses, etc. They end up with residency (if they want it), and there is nothing anyone can do to stop it - that is the way international employment really works.

I doubt you have your job wherever it is on the basis of a foreign passport and no residency or employment right - otherwise the government of wherever-the-fukc-you are would have you deported.

My last three contracts have been in countries that I had no right to live or work in, other than the rights conferred by the country in order to attract people with the requisite skills. They don't deport people they need, in the same way that Oz doesn't deport all the foreign doctors it recruits. Once again, I go back to the American Mesaba drivers working in Ireland with no residency, no citizenship, and without a JAA licence. Think it can't happen in Oz? John Howard just told you that it can! :rolleyes:

So you are wrong on that one, too.

slice

5th Jul 2007, 12:07

remoak - Who does own most of Darwin then (and what exactly do you mean by Darwin)?? Having lived there for a fair few years it seemed to be more ocker than any of the big Capitals, what with the local Squatocracy and all.

I don't think Rex will really ever have it together enough to get through the lengthy and involved (not to mention costly) process of sponsoring flight crew through the immigration process. It could be done but given the resources planning and forethought required, I don't see Rex doing it in any great numbers given their demonstrated general inability to organize a root in a brothel.:E

I think Rex were just going on a fishing exercise.

ACMS

5th Jul 2007, 13:07

remoak.................I live in the real world and I can assure you without a shadow of a doubt that the ONLY REASON COUNTRIES EMPLOY FOREIGN PILOTS IS THEY HAVEN'T GOT ENOUGH OF THEIR OWN
SUPPLY AND DEMAND
I'd guess by your location that you've done pretty well off the Australian tax payers back.
"Pilot jobs in Australia for Australians".

We will decide who comes to this country, and the circumstances under which they come.
amen:ok: brother

boofta

5th Jul 2007, 13:53

Remoak
Thanks for dismantling my arguments. Perhaps when you find a real
command in aviation, on real pay, for the quarter of a century that
I have. You might see the stupidity of both your argument and assumptions.
As a pilot you should rejoice, that finally we are getting some bargaining
power again. Its been 18 years since any talk of pay rises and
shortages have been so apparent.
I lament for those that follow, including you, so why shoot yourself
in the foot. If your lucky, things will lift enough to recover our great
industry. Where those that produce the profits again benefit fully.
Its not wishful wannabee dreaming, its reality. There are manning
problems worldwide, even you might make some decent money before
you finish.
Its not about being owed a better deal, it's about not getting screwed
by rapacious airline managers. Are you one?

remoak

5th Jul 2007, 22:50

ACMS

I live in the real world and I can assure you without a shadow of a doubt that the ONLY REASON COUNTRIES EMPLOY FOREIGN PILOTS IS THEY HAVEN'T GOT ENOUGH OF THEIR OWN

That is such a ridiculously blinkered statement that I really don't know where to start... but suffice it to say that Ireland has plenty of their own pilots, but have allowed Americans in for purely financial reasons... the UK have, on several occasions, imported foreign pilots - a particular example would be British Midland, who brought a bunch of Aussies over a few years ago, on CAA validations and temporary work permits... despite the large numbers of Brit wannabes... the list goes on.

I'd guess by your location that you've done pretty well off the Australian tax payers back.

Wrong. Never worked in Oz. All northern hemisphere stuff.

We will decide who comes to this country, and the circumstances under which they come

Your GOVERNMENT will decide, as they did in '89. Do you trust them?

boofta

Perhaps when you find a real
command in aviation, on real pay, for the quarter of a century that
I have.

Awww... sticks and stones. I suspect that my pay is somewhat higher than yours if you are a typical oz long-hauler, and I have you beat by two years on the command front.

that finally we are getting some bargaining
power again

Hmmm... remind me again why that is? Nothing to do with tub-thumping unions and greedy pilots, was it?

things will lift enough to recover our great
industry.

That's the problem with the older generation of Oz pilots, particularly the ones that made bad choices in 89. You simply cannot see or accept that the industry is fundamentally different now. You cannot turn the clock back, no matter how badly you might want your once-lofty status back. The industry today is about cost reduction and efficiency, and neither of those two goals are compatible with the dinosaurs of old. Pilots no longer enjoy the privilege and respect that they once did, even in the isolated backwater that is Australian aviation. It isn't "great" any more.

Airline manager? Nah. Just a pilot with some additional responsibilities. Happily reaping the benefits of a shortage of drivers on my particular type.

Supply and demand, you see...

jarjar

6th Jul 2007, 00:57

remoak mate
youv'e just discredited everything that you have posted about the Australian industry, if you havnt worked here, p*ss off to another forum, you have no idea about the current state of the industry.

As my pappy used to say "It is better to be thought a fool, then to open ones mouth and remove all doubt"... you remoak are a fool

JarJar

ACMS

6th Jul 2007, 03:42

So we are now using the Irish as an example of "worlds best practice"

oh brother:(

Your handle says "south pacific" you probably come from some despot regime in the area that relies on handouts from the Australian tax payers.

Bob Hawke is a totally different animal to John Howard.

haughtney1

6th Jul 2007, 07:39

Why oh why do some on here resort to personal attack, rather than face the reality of the situation?
ACMS...a bit of the pot calling the kettle black with this comment
Your handle says "south pacific" you probably come from some despot regime in the area that relies on handouts from the Australian tax payers.
Your handle says Fragrant harbor...and last time I was there it wasn't particularly Fragrant, nor was it particularly pleasant...just ask a few of the ethnic Koreans...:=
As my pappy used to say "It is better to be thought a fool, then to open ones mouth and remove all doubt"... you remoak are a fool

Yet again a personal attack...not very constructive Jarjar, but then when has that ever stopped you posting rubbish in the past?
As for industry knowledge...the Oz industry is FAR from unique, yes it has its own idiosyncrasies, but fundamentally it is virtually identical to the industry as a whole.
The real problem that the naysayers on here appear unwilling to accept is that despite you venting your spleen, the name calling, the bluster, and the moronic blinkered personal attacks.....Rex will continue to search for suitable employees overseas, because it suits them to do so.
If the views of ACMS and Jarjar are respresentative......then I'd be doing the same thing.
And yes I've worked in the industry in Oz:ok:

jarjar

6th Jul 2007, 15:13

Personel attack hey, so your saying in 1200 odd posts, youve never said anything slightly negative about another poster. The australian industry has changed significantly over the last 12-18 months, if your not working here, then you should keep your mouth shut.
As far as posting rubbish, mate some of your posts are the most unintelligent dribble on these forums.
lots of love

JarJar

haughtney1

6th Jul 2007, 15:27

Personel attack hey, so your saying in 1200 odd posts, you've never said anything slightly negative about another poster.
No, I've never said or even insinuated that:hmm: I am JUST as guilty of that as many others are on here.
The Australian industry has changed significantly over the last 12-18 months, if your not working here, then you should keep your mouth shut.
Two things spring to mind here, the first is, YES it has changed...in fact it has been evolving and re-inventing itself ever since Reg's Mob, and Impulse went south...but then, thats just like the rest of the world, so no surprise there.
Point two...so you are saying those that are outside the issue have no right to comment? if so please give me one compelling reason why?
Newsflash Jarjar, the Oz aviation industry is a small and quite insular sector, it is however not very different to everywhere else.....
Maybe you could explain your position a little more clearly, rather than just throw your verbal weight around?

remoak

6th Jul 2007, 17:54

jarjar

if you havnt worked here, p*ss off to another forum

Since when was D & G solely owned by Aussie pilots? Are there any other countries that might be described as either Dunnunda or Godzone? And you call me a fool. Idiot.

As it happens, I do hold an aussie professional licence as well as one from the other country that you are apparently not aware of.

You don't have to work in a particular country to recognise stupidity when you see it.

ACMS

you probably come from some despot regime in the area that relies on handouts from the Australian tax payers.

No, I come from the despot regime that regularly thrashes you at rugby...

BTW Ireland is now the richest nation in the EU and miles ahead of Australia when it comes to industrial relations.

You two epitomise the two outstanding D&G aussie qualities:

1) play the man, not the ball whenever possible
2) When you cannot come up with a reasoned response to an argument, do (1)

Now if you have any actual sensible thoughts to contribute... otherwise, do the thingsyou suggested i do

CBS

6th Jul 2007, 18:10

As my pappy used to say "It is better to be thought a fool, then to open ones mouth and remove all doubt"...

Hey jarjar I think you should take some of your pappys advise!! You have made some ridiulous posts.

Aquaplaner

6th Jul 2007, 22:41

The Employer Nomination Scheme allows Australian employers to sponsor employees in an eligible occupation, who are foreign nationals, for a permanent visa to work in Australia.
An eligible position must meet the following requirements:
- be full-time
- be permanent and ongoing
- meet all relevant Australian award requirements
- be a highly skilled occupation that is on the Employer Nomination Scheme Occupation List (ENSOL)
Pilots are included on the Employer Nomination Scheme Occupation List (http://www.dimia.gov.au/allforms/pdf/1121i.pdf).
For those that are interested more detailed information is available on the Department of Immigration Website (http://www.dimia.gov.au/skilled/skilled-workers/ens/how-the-visa-works.htm).

KRUSTY 34

7th Jul 2007, 00:21

"Pilots are included on the Employer Nomination Scheme Occupation List."

Well, that may change due to the events of the last few weeks! At the very least you can expect severe restrictions for applicants originating from the Middle East and/or the Sub-Continent.

haughtney 1,

REX aren't searching for applicants overseas because it suits them, they have simply run out of other ideas. Not that they had that many ideas to start with.

As far as any real strategy to deal with this crisis, the only thing REX and in that case most other employers in OZ have ever done is to go to the next resume on the pile.

Oh oh!! the pile is almost empty. Some "Rocket Scientist" decided to look overseas for whoever may be dumb enough to come to Sydney and work for 45K a year. Meanwhile the absolute cream of experienced crew are inexorably bleeding away to other operators who are saying, "thankyou very much".

Rex are simply clutching at straws!

Gnadenburg

7th Jul 2007, 00:40

Remoak

You playing a little devil's advocacy there?

Just an observer of the turbo-prop market but I understand there is a bit of a premium abroad.

And having flown extensively around India & China, one thing they don't have a lot of is turbo-props. They are a booming jet market.

And I would suggest that the potential Chinese and Indian hoardes would be deterred by Australian taxation and cost of living. Aswell as an aversion toward Western check & training culture.

Anyways, keep sprouting it.......

Gnadenburg

7th Jul 2007, 01:05

Tell me, who owns most of Darwin and large parts of the Gold Coast?

And what's this rubbish Remoak?

There are foreign investment restrictions on real estate purchases in Australia.

Yes. We encourage "foreigners' to buy high rise apartments and paying a premium. But no they can't just waltz in and buy a harbourside home or CBD terrace.

The Kiwi's sell there land to anyone. We don't.

But what was your point anyway?

jarjar

7th Jul 2007, 01:20

CBS,
My posts only seem ridiculus to you, because they are contrary to your opinion.
Haughntney & Remoak,
You have the right to your opinion, you even have the right to say it, what I was getting at( and i apologise if my post was a little blunt, I get that way sometimes) if you havnt worked in the australian market(remoak) then why do you feel it necessary to comment on Terms and conditions that pilots should accept.
If you work overseas I'm assuming you live overseas? You cannot tell me that each countries economic climate is not different. Terms and conditions in Australia, for pilots have not evolved much in the last 15 years, now there is a very high demand for experienced crews, especially turboprop. Why should they not charge for their services(every other industry does, I refer to one my other "ridiculus posts" that cleaners are earning 120K a year at the minesites, why is this? SUPPLY AND DEMAND).
Dont get me wrong, I'M not talking about being militant, just slightly better T&C's then what has become common practice in Australia.
And another thing, notice I didnt make reference to T&c's from other countries, why? because I dont live or work there, so I dont feel as though I have the right to pass judgement.

JarJar

ACMS

7th Jul 2007, 02:20

While there are Australian Men and Women ready, willing and able to fill Pilot positions in Australia then not one single foreign national should set foot on Australian soil to do our jobs.
This rule applies to any other country as well.
That's the only reason I work for CX, nothing else. If they could get enough locals to do my job I would be outta here whether I liked it or not.
It's not a difficult concept to grasp.
And I don't think an unreasonable one.
Try getting a job in the US for example.

Countries should be able to look after their own people first.

boofta

7th Jul 2007, 04:51

Remoak
One day in the future you might just get a job on a big aeroplane
on a big real salary. Don't jump to conclusions with the limited
info you have of Ppruners. You are a management wannabee
my friend, who probably needs to see more sunshine.
Come to Oz, I'll sponsor you for a job at Rex.

haughtney1

7th Jul 2007, 07:07

Well it seems at least we are we are being civil to each other! :ok:

ACMS...
While there are Australian Men and Women ready, willing and able to fill Pilot positions in Australia then not one single foreign national should set foot on Australian soil to do our jobs.
This rule applies to any other country as well.

You my friend still don't get it, you may WANT this to be the situation, you MAY have a good point in relation to the situation...but as has been said.."there is the way it should be..and the way it is" in any case I tend to agree with Gnadenburg on this...REX wont find many T/P drivers in Asia, which is why they advertised where they did...on a site frequented predominately by Europeans and North Americans.
ACMS...one more thing to consider; If you feel so strongly that Oz jobs need to be protected (in this industry) for Oz pilots..have you considered returning and putting your money where your mouth is?
Try getting a job in the US for example.
I'm not sure the US is a great example....unless you think Oz should aspire in that direction.

remoak

7th Jul 2007, 09:18

Gnadenberg

And having flown extensively around India & China, one thing they don't have a lot of is turbo-props. They are a booming jet market.

They don't have a lot of turboprops yet... but there will be. Lots and lots. Once the airlines start opening up the regions, expect to see the numbers rise dramatically. All the new operators are going for the cherries, the rest will follow.

Wrong on both counts. For a start, most of the Indian and Chinese students are very well financed, certainly the ones currently training in NZ are not short of money - many come from wealthy families or are sponsored. Secondly, the students seem to have no issues with the training, but more to the point, the new airlines are well aware of the need to train to western standards, partly from an insurance perspective, but also because they are forward-thinking and recognise the need to compete in a global market - and you can't do that effectively if your standards are low. You get found out, as Korean and Mandarin found out the hard way.

The Kiwi's sell there land to anyone. We don't.

But what was your point anyway?

yeah, right... we have the most restrictive rules in the world, just ask Shania Twain how hard it is... and how much prime Aussie real estate is now in Japanes hands? Ironic, really... my point is that governments do not make decisions about immigration or work permits on the basis of what a bunch of annoyed pilots think.

jarjar

if you havnt worked in the australian market(remoak) then why do you feel it necessary to comment on Terms and conditions that pilots should accept.

Because this issue is pretty much universal across the worldwide industry. The simple truth, as you say, is that it is a matter of supply and demand. However, you hope to increase you pay and conditions by capitalising on the lack of supply in the face of strong demand, and you assume that the only way that Aussie companies can fill the seats is with you and your colleagues. However, the simple truth is also that, in other countries with similar economic and political models to Australis, airlines have found other ways to fill the seats. You should really study the history of Ryanair, because they effectively bypassed expensive local labour and found ways to employ lots of cheap(er) Eastern Europeans, people who would work for virtually nothing, just to get the gig.

You then assume that this could never happen in Australia... but people said that in Ireland, too. The simple truth, again, is that economics on the scale that Ryanair create, allows them considerable political clout - and they have managed to bend the rules to suit themselves. Can it happen in Australia? Of course it can.

You cannot tell me that each countries economic climate is not different.

In most western countries, not that different. But it isn't the economic climate you should be looking at, it is the economic structures.

You said "why should they not charge for their services", and of course you are right. I have no issue with that. My point was, and is, that simply assuming that the airlines will cave because you want them to, or go broke if they don't give you what you want, is naive in the extreme. What happens when Asian or Indian migrants start offering to work for half what you will? The idea that "it can never happen here" is usually followed by a lot of people getting a nasty surprise.

You may not feel able to pass comment on the situation in other countries, and that's fine. I have worked in many countries and have seen this pattern repeat itself over and over again. You can reject it if you like, but if you refuse to learn from others who have gone before, you will simply repeat their mistakes. Far smarter to take note of what has happened elsewhere, and plan accordingly.

Groups that wish they had would include your own '89ers, the US ATCOs in the 80s, Continental pilots in the 90s, the Ansett NZ staff, SABENA staff a few years ago, and so on and so forth...

boofta

One day in the future you might just get a job on a big aeroplane
on a big real salary.

I must admit that did make me smile a little this morning, as I clambered into the left seat of a big shiny jet with four big jet thingies on the wings, and a bunch of girls down the back. Sorry, I won't be able take you up on your offer, I haven't flown a turboprop for many years and would probably be useless at it. Different skill set.

Under Dog

7th Jul 2007, 09:22

Up and at them Jar Jar.
Well said,Tell them to crawl back under the hole they come from.

Cheers the Dog

Capt_CheeseDick

7th Jul 2007, 09:32

Remoak: "Groups that wish they had would include... the Ansett NZ staff..."
Hey, many of them are sitting pretty in PacBlue! :rolleyes:

jarjar

7th Jul 2007, 09:50

My point was, and is, that simply assuming that the airlines will cave because you want them to, or go broke if they don't give you what you want, is naive in the extreme.
Never, have I said this. On the contrary it would be fantastic for all airlines great and small to flourish. It would be ideal for all employees of each company to band together and suceed with the company(from the CEO right down to the office cleaners).
Big problem though, this doesnt happen. There has been a rift between management and flightcrew/cabin crew for many years, management has had the upper hand as far as "setting the bar" for T&C's , now due to a lack of experienced crews(especially for the regionals), Crews can start levelling that bar.
Ideal outcome= Lots of happy employees, productive business, minimal staff turnover(but enough to keep people interested, as far as promotion potential is concerned).
JarJar:ok:

Gnadenburg

7th Jul 2007, 17:23

Sorry remoak, I smell your bullsh$$.

How many turbo-prop orders are on order for China? They are developing a regional jet and have no interest in the aircraft REX operates.

And India? C'mon. Sprout it......

Wrong on both counts. For a start, most of the Indian and Chinese students are very well financed, certainly the ones currently training in NZ are not short of money - many come from wealthy families or are sponsored.

They are locked into bonds for the duration of their careers. Or, can exit with financial penalties ten times their wage and some.

And if Mummy and Daddy own half of Shanghai. WTF would they want to fly for 50K a year, living out of Sydney for Rex? And WTF would they want to fly a SAAB?

yeah, right... we have the most restrictive rules in the world, just ask Shania Twain how hard it is... and how much prime Aussie real estate is now in Japanes hands?

No you don't. I know because I am in a syndicate with people who can't buy Australian commercial property but we are helping ourselves to yours.

So how much Kiwi land does Shania have?

And do your homework. It was the Japanese who were burnt in SE QLD real estate markets that caused the restrictive access that foreigners now have to Australian real estate.

Good luck to the REX guys. Your services will be demanded by REX and others.....

remoak

8th Jul 2007, 00:04

Gnadenberg

How many turbo-prop orders are on order for China? They are developing a regional jet and have no interest in the aircraft REX operates.

Which bit of "not yet" didn't you understand? And I never suggested that China had any interest in anything REX does, or, for that matter, the aircraft they fly.

However, the fact remains that programs such as the one I have described have been very effective in bridging the experience gap between raw CPLs with no practical experience, and airline-ready First Officers.

They are locked into bonds for the duration of their careers. Or, can exit with financial penalties ten times their wage and some.

Completely untrue. Asked a few of them today. They just laughed.

WTF would they want to fly for 50K a year, living out of Sydney for Rex? And WTF would they want to fly a SAAB?

They don't want either of those things, but they do want a competitive advantage when it comes to getting a job back home. The current initial jet conversion failure rate is high, and needs to be addressed in a constructive way.

No you don't. I know because I am in a syndicate with people who can't buy Australian commercial property but we are helping ourselves to yours.

Well... I am still active in real estate (still hold an agent's licence), and you may be able to buy selected commercial real estate, but not in a way that gives you any real control.

So how much Kiwi land does Shania have?

Not as much as she wanted, and it came with some very heavy restrictions and conditions (which cost her a small fortune to satisfy).

KRUSTY 34

8th Jul 2007, 00:31

Rex Training wage - $30,094

1st year F/O wage - $41,240

They're kidding aren't they!

rhoshamboe

8th Jul 2007, 01:14

Remoak,
Please don't take offence mate but your argument seems to shifting around under fire and I'm getting confused as to what you are actually arguing. As for India and China they have a few more aircrew problems at the moment than Rex. Any and all qualified (ie commercial licenced) people are finding themselves very quickly in the right seat of JETS. I cannot see them moving away from home unless it is a far better gig than where they are now (same for all of us I think) and honestly REX's conditions are barely enough to keep Aussies working there....

Jet_A_Knight

8th Jul 2007, 01:35

Ask any instructor from a certain WA training school about the fresh Chinese CPL's coming out of that place.:eek:

Gnadenburg

8th Jul 2007, 02:23

remoak

The Chinese 'emerging' regional ( for simplicity we will stay away from India ) would at a guess be based on jets. Why? Because they have an Airbus production line opening in Tianjin and are developing their own regional jet.

The turbo-prop market is now non-existant and there is nothing to suggest this will change.

And if they did go down the turbo-prop direction, I would suggest that this new skills set would be attracting a premium. They would draw expatriate resources- perhaps even from REX.

I just can't see how your faniciful ( and at the moment non-existant ) devloping countries turbo-prop resources could threaten inflationary pressures on T&C's for Australian regional pilots.

And your scenario that REX becomes a training ground for hundreds of Chinese co-pilots- as was done on a very small scale with local Dragonair pilots in Scotland- is a little premature and ambitious.

For whatever reason, you are being miserable toward REX pilots. From where I sit, it's glaringly obvious REX will be hurt by a huge upswing of demand within Australia and regionally by airline operators. REX provides a good product.

If you don't understand foreign investment restrictions in Australian real estate well I can't put it any simpler than this: what Shania Twain bought in New Zealand she could not do in Australia. She has no right to freehold title as a foreigner. It is rigidly limiting what you can buy here.

Completely untrue. Asked a few of them today. They just laughed.

Classic remoak. They always just laugh. It's called saving face.

remoak

8th Jul 2007, 13:15

Chinese save face. Indians don't. These were the latter. As I know them fairly well, I can tell you that they are all from prosperous families and have no bond - because none of the training is being paid for by the airlines. They are becoming qualified prior to seeking employment, the new airlines rarely, if ever, sponsor ab initio training in India. Surprised you didn't know that.

As far as China goes, I have been there and had the conversations with external trade/industry teams as part of my own business expansion, and suffice it to say that there are major plans afoot for turboprop operations to the outlying regions. Once again, I am surprised that you are not aware that the Chinese have been quietly trying to acquire a utility turboprop type for local manufacture for some time now (in the 50-70 seat range). They have also been looking at a smaller (70-100 seat) jet for local production. The candidates for both needs should be obvious. Or do you think that every local centre in China is going to sprout massive runways and infrastructure overnight?

I have already stated how this could impact negatively on the aspirations of wannabes/REX pilots. Dragonair wasn't the only company to do this, at least three Euro operators are also at it and it is quite common in the US (although in a slightly different way).

I'm not being miserable towards REX pilots in the slightest, merely stating the obvious. The REX product may well be good, but it is also cost-sensitive and that is where the problems start. Anybody thinking that they should seize the day to force a large salary rise should look carefully at what has happened in the US carriers after the pilot unions got the large increases they wanted. A year or so later, half of them were in Chapter 11 and the rest had imposed massive salary cuts. Really smart stuff on the part of the pilots.

But I know that you have no interest in learning the lessons of the past, so by all means encourage the REX guys to go for that pay rise. I have no particular issue with them wanting more money, I'm sure they deserve it as is the case in most small airlines. However, Australia and NZ both have a terrible "us against them" mentality when it comes to pay negotiations, they rarely go smoothly, and the result is normally a "lose-lose" - again, Ansett NZ and '89 spring to mind (ah, but we mustn't learn from the past, no sir-ee).

As for the rest, it is off-topic. I know that you like to think that you know everything, even about areas in which you know nothing, so for the sake of everyone else I'm not going to engage on the subject of real estate.

KRUSTY 34

8th Jul 2007, 22:38

remoak,

REX Pilots are not pushing for a payrise. The EBA still has a year to run and as such they are not in a position to push for a payrise.

What they are doing however is voting with their feet!

So what is left? With very few suitable candidates remaining these guys and girls are fastly becoming irreplacable.

There is a large number of senior pilots, both F/O's and Captains who are currently sitting on the fence waiting to see what the company intends to do.

If the company chooses to do nothing, then these people will also walk. That is the reality.

And don't give me that chapter 11 bullsh@t. REX can afford to improve the wages and conditions of their pilots, they just do not choose to do so, as is their right.

The clock is ticking. Crewing are already cancelling flights due to lack of crew, and this is just the beginning.

Dark Knight

9th Jul 2007, 02:00

ACMS

While there are Australian Men and Women ready, willing and able to fill Pilot positions in Australia then not one single foreign national should set foot on Australian soil to do our jobs.
This rule applies to any other country as well.
That's the only reason I work for CX, nothing else. If they could get enough locals to do my job I would be outta here whether I liked it or not.
It's not a difficult concept to grasp.
And I don't think an unreasonable one.
Try getting a job in the US for example.

Countries should be able to look after their own people first.

I stand to be corrected but it is my understanding that legislation to allow & fast track foreign pilots into Australia & Australian flying jobs passed by a LABOR goverment during a `certain aviation incident' many years ago is still valid!

Have not seen Labor in opposition moving to repeal this legislation.

Was also the same Labor government which introduced Individual contracts which pilots were required to sign.

Another Labor government under Paul Keating turned these individual contracts into EBAs/EWAs

So what are Kevin & Julia going to do?

Story changes regularly?

The shortage of pilots should not be surprising to anyone who has been doing their homework or planning (leaves out airline management), the figures & statistics have been there for all to see and some of us did them more than 18 -20 year ago.

A shame there is not any foresight and solidarity to take maximum advantage of the new era.

DK

Playne Krash Fiona

14th Jul 2007, 06:52

Rrrrrrrrrrrr*x pilots,
Who's up for drinks in glenelg tonight. Let's get together so we can show our appreciation for the great work you're doing in SA. Don't worry about bringing your wallets, West End's are on us!! Sorry you'll have to make do with the jukebox this week, as you'll appreciate, bands are getting a bit pricey these days, unlike S$#b pilots!!! Only joking.
Look guys, we're coming over because we really do value your committment to LK's empire. To those of you concerned about attrition, salarys and all that other boring stuff, I'm sure that as busy as we are, just by showing our faces with a few rounds of Murray river scooners, gratis don't forget, will be just the sort of morale booster that's needed. By sunday a.m, any doubters I'm sure will be won round not through the promise of senseless pay increases, which as you are only too well aware can seriously eat into our hard earned profits, but by good old fashioned ozzie support and mateship.
Please invite your mates especially those holding at least a PPL with the intention of studying CPL at some stage, however for these guests there will have to be cover charge of $250.

Anyway, really do look forward to seeing you,

The management

wrongwayaround

15th Jul 2007, 00:38

a few rounds of Murray river scooners

That's my beer you're talking about there, pal :=

questil

15th Jul 2007, 10:18

so what happened???????????????????????????

wickednoel

7th Feb 2008, 03:56

REX isn't all that bad considering that you are likely to be flying Saabs and Dash8s. Some people posting in this forum seem to be using Qantas and BA as their benchmark for pay. 800hours will not get you a well paying job ANYWHERE. Most pilots starting out would jump at any opportunity that arises in aviation, especially considering REX is somewhat respectable and is a great launching pad for any Qantas/BA/CX/Emirates aspiring pilots. In reality being 21 and earning 45k a year whilst living in Melbourne or Brisbane isn't too bad. Christ you could lease a BMW and still have enough money to blow on booze and fags and generally having a great time. Most bankers with an MBA won't be earning anymore than that when they start off.

boardpig

7th Feb 2008, 04:27

I'll get the popcorn out and take my seat shall I. Where do they get them...

Green gorilla

7th Feb 2008, 05:09

Its good to hear people in a position of advantage preaching to the youngsters but I know alot of airline pilots that I flew with when we first got jobs in aviation that would have stabbed you in the back to get into rex. Very short memeries.:\

Metro man

7th Feb 2008, 05:49

Most bankers with an MBA won't be earning anymore than that when they start off.

Most bankers won't have laid out $70 000 for training either, HECS debt payable further down the track yes.

Most bankers would view $45 000 as peanuts, even for the first year. Then they would expect to rapidly advance up the salary scale WITHIN THE SAME COMPANY. Compare five years down the track REX pilot is now captain on $65 000/ year, banker recieves bonus of $65 000 and is dissapointed.

REX need to move with the times. It's not the 1990s anymore with thirty highly suitable applicants and fifty acceptable ones for every job. Look at the latest packages with Surveillance Australia $100 000/year MORE than REX for a similar level of pilot.:yuk:

wickednoel

7th Feb 2008, 07:05

Thing is you can only climb the aviation ladder so far with REX because of the aircraft they have in service. Most pilots, after 5 or so years (possibly would need a type rating?) would be able to get a job flying large airliners for pretty much any airline. Yes, bankers do earn more than pilots :P, shame, they are all crooks! The reality is 800hours is not a point in ones career where by one can call the shots. There might be a pilot shortage, but there certainly isn't a shortage of low hour pilots.

prospector

7th Feb 2008, 08:02

How many bankers have got an office with a view like aeroplane drivers have,

If you are only there for the money give it away and go and get a bankers job, or any of the many other jobs that pay well but are as boring as watching paint dry.

KRUSTY 34

7th Feb 2008, 08:10

wickednoel.

I was going to agree with you on some points, but your attack on Jenna (I do acknowledge it was a retort) does you no service at all.

The fact is that a start with REX for a young wannabe does appear to be a golden opportunity. But do you have any idea at all about the real picture here? I think not.

If you don't have at least 500 hours multi command you will not progress at REX. If you do not have at least 500 hours multi command you will not satisfy the min requirements for virtually all the major carriers (QF excepted). So be it 2 years, 5 years, 10 years!!! with REX you will be hamstrung throughout your carreer.

The real issue is the retention of "experienced" pilots, and the only thing that will do that now is money. When you grow up you may realise that fact. Without captains or those that can be upgraded to command, these carriers will face ruin. How many of the domestic airlines have taken on the 800 hour pilots to which you refer. With the exeption of QF, none! The reason, they can suck the life out of the smaller carriers without the drama and additional expense of trying to train inexperienced pilots. This has been made possible because the regional carriers have refused to compete for labour. The current initial failure rate for new REX pilots is now in the order of 50% and climbing! Be under no illusion, the standards required at REX are every bit as high as the major carriers. Being inexperienced is not a crime. being young and enthusiastic can be advantageous, but the reality is that without experience your great REX adventure may just as easily turn into one's worst nightmare.

Forget about 5 years and then moving on to a fabulous aviation career. If REX do not compete for labour, they will lose another 60% of their experienced pilots by years end and the the whole thing will collapse.

nomorecatering

7th Feb 2008, 08:25

Rex's Grade 3 instructors are being paid at least $1,500 more than a first year FO.

Go Figure.

hear they have appointed a CP and are ging to use/buy an AOC from a mob in wangarratta. No grade 1's yet tho

Triple Captain

7th Feb 2008, 08:50

Rex advertising overseas

thats un-Australian

apache

7th Feb 2008, 10:56

After 3-5 years at REX, or wherever... you may be ELIGIBLE to move on, but what if you want to stay in SYD/MEL? and what if QF/DJ/JQ decide that you are not good enough for them? or if QF f*ck up your file, and reject you based on an interview which you never did?

What then ????
OK... you may be qualified, and you may be experienced, and you may exceed all qualifications for all major(minor) airlines in OZ... but the ONLY one who will look at you is some pi$$ant outfit in India/Asia, where you DO NOT want to go... what then ???
Do you really want to be stuck at ZL/QF earning F*ck All for the rest of your life ????

OK... so you may be able to hire purchase a BMW now, and live in Brisvegas- with mummy and Daddy....(w@nker) BUT... what happens when said BMW needs MAJOR maintenance, and some chick you have sung to in a bar is pregnant, and Mummy and Daddy do not ant to support you anymore.... IKS 70K for the rest of your life, including weekend and public holidayshifts gonna cut it with the bimbo and Baby?

the BMW you now own, will be you car for the next 20yrs!!!!!,,..... certaily hope you bought a good one in 2009!

The ONLY way the ensure regional pilots lifestyle is to stand up to management NOW!!!!! SAY TO THEM.... HEY!!!!! WE ARE COMMODITY, NOT A LIABILITY!!! TREAT US LIKE A VALUABLE ASSETT< OR LOSE YOUR COMPANY!!!!

think long sighted... not short term!!!!

boardpig

7th Feb 2008, 21:09

..and I might actually meet this guy in the industry?? :} Oh, I do hope so.

Krusty, I wouldn't bother, give a man(loose term) enough rope and all that. It is better than tv though...:eek:

Ahh, his last post has been removed. Shame, might have prevented him getting into the air.

flyby

7th Feb 2008, 21:36

Well with a comment like that {thankfully removed} i sincerely hope you pull your head in :ouch:,To denegrate the sanctity of life with such a repulsive lack of respect makes me sick.Maybe you should take a step back and remember where you were for the first 9 months of your life.Grow up!:ugh:

hawkert20

8th Feb 2008, 02:06

If the vast majority of the world airlines are paying better money than in Australia, and especially REX (by the sounds of it), what would be lost in opening the doors for overseas pilots? If the pay is that bad, then REX and the like just would get the takers, and that surely would get them thinking then.:eek:

And before anyone asks.... no I dont work for REX, or even QL. However, if given the chance, I would jump at it.

stay safe

KRUSTY 34

8th Feb 2008, 03:40

hawkert20

The opportunity is merely a mouse click away.

There are only 2 things that should stop you sucessfully applying to REX.

Failing to meet the min requirements (although that's not much these days!)
The remuneration package is uncompetitive (So much for the overseas option)If these 2 factors do not apply to you, my suggestion would be to go for it. We need all the pilots we can get!

I.R.PIRATE

18th Feb 2008, 17:19

See REX is advertising in South African newspapers. With the current state of affairs in the country I am sure you will be hearing some saffer accents on the airwaves soon.

Been reading the whine of pilots for some time on here now and can only say that +- $ 50K (for an F/O) in a place where you are safe, your wife will remain unraped, your possessions your own, and your way of life not under threat, sounds like a fine proposition to many.

Aviation has for many years been a global industry, and becoming more so by the day. Face reality, there are other reasons for joining a company than just financial reward.

One man's meat is another man's poison. Hope to hear the whine up close and personal soon...;)

boardpig

18th Feb 2008, 21:05

Its not the fact that they are advertising overseas, it's more along the lines of WHY they have to. There won't be a Rex by the end of the year anyways, so its probably a mute point.

btw, I know guys from Rex and it so easily could be fantastic place to be. Am p***ed off at the way mgt are intent on running the cr*p out if it.

Launch_code_Harry

18th Feb 2008, 22:11

there are other reasons for joining a company than just financial reward.Some may argue that your statement defines UNFREE LABOUR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfree_labor).
From the article
Unfree labour is a generic or collective term for those work relations, especially in modern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_history) or early modern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Modern_period) history, in which people are employed against their will by the threat of destitution, detention, violence (including death), or other extreme hardship to themselves, or to members of their families.Further
Unfree vs. free labour

By contrast, "free labour" describes a situation which a worker is able to leave at any time, if he or she sees fit. In practice, however, many nominally free labourers, in some historical periods and/or countries, face significant constraints on their ability to leave their jobs, and may not receive payment which is above the level of subsistence. For these reasons, some scholars prefer to see "free labour" and "unfree labour" as extreme points on a continuum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum), rather than being sharply distinct entities. Because of this, some people refer to the condition of the working class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_class) as "wage slavery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery)". Others may feel that such terms trivialise the experiences of real slaves.