Hard Landing In SFB

[Waldo]

I hear a Monarch A330 requires an undercarriage change after a heavy landing in SFB this weekend?
Can anyone confirm this?

[Monarch Man]

Tis true, and right after a certain article mentioned how reliable the MON 330 fleet was.

"Finally, just in case you're wondering why I haven't mentioned them lately, yes, we do still operate two A330 aircraft - however, all they ever do lately is fly, and fly, and fly, and they are proving to be very good at it too! Hopefully I haven't gone and jinxed them now!"

I'm told both main gear legs may need replacing.

[kooyheier]

Yup, looks like the a/c is gonna be out of it for 4 weeks!! :\

[spannersatcx]

Tis true, and right after a certain article mentioned how reliable the MON 330 fleet was.

Nothing wrong with the a/c.:E

[Sleeping Freight Dog]

That must have been one hell of a landing. Was there any wrinkling
of the fuselage involved also?

[cargo boy]

My sources tell me that the a/c has been given dispensation to make one flight back to a base where maintenance can be carried out. Apparently there is no restriction on the carriage of passengers so it may not be as bad as first thought. On its way back to Manchester as I write.

Anyone know what the weather was at the time of the hard landing?

[mohdawang]

Looks like the A330 is prone to hard and heavy landings. A Korean Air A330 hit somehing like 2.3gs at ZRH and the skipper( expat ) was sacked. Also herd that Korean had many heavy landings on the 744 as well.

[fantom]

Goodness. Is anyone allowed to post absolute rubbish here with no filtering at all?

No wonder most of us have left.

The A330 may be landed easily (excluding special factors, such as local weather, which affect all aircraft).

[RoyHudd]

Above thread is a joke. Surely. No aviators there. Fantom excluded from my criticism.

[Panman]

Tis true, and right after a certain article mentioned how reliable the MON 330 fleet was.
Bet when IM hears about this in the morning he will regret having jinxed the aircraft.

[tubby linton]

The auto thrust on the A330 has a habit of bringing the power back to idle on the approach if slightly fast and then never spooling up again-Crunch every time if this happens at low level

[TotalBeginner]

Just out of interest, doesn't Airbus FBW have some kind of envelope protection from a heavy landing?

[tubby linton]

No.If you try and phase advance the thrust levers below 100ft Ra you really are asking for trouble.As soon as you get close to vls drag increases quickly.Alpha floor/prot is inhbited below 100ft as well so you are basically on your own

[isnow]

cargo boy -
KSFB 231553Z 00000KT 10SM CLR 31/20 A2998 RMK AO2 SLP151 T03110200

[electricjetjock]

No.If you try and phase advance the thrust levers below 100ft Ra you really are asking for trouble.As soon as you get close to vls drag increases quickly.Alpha floor/prot is inhbited below 100ft as well so you are basically on your own:rolleyes:

TL - Initial reaction was to say what a load of "shoemakers". However, I shall just say that if you sat in my A330 and just accepted anything below 100' you would not be getting another sector as PF with me. You CAN advance the thrust levers below 100' you just have to remember that YOU now have control of the thrust and need to bring it back as if in manual thrust NOT to the CLB detent. Otherwise you are going around!

As my first instructor said FLY the F*****G aircraft.

[Flight Detent]

Well, after all that...

Maybe we should be clear on what exactly is the difference between a "hard" and "heavy" landing, since they are quite different animals!

One refers to the rate of descent at touchdown, and one refers to the AUW of the airplane at touchdown.

Now I wonder which is which here....

Cheers...FD :ugh:

[RingwaySam]

londonmet,

The aircraft routed Newcastle - Sanford (G-SMAN/ZB365).

HTH,
Sam

[tubby linton]

Electric jet jock- Go around every time then otherwise you completely destabilise the approach.This phenomenon usually appears in calm weather.I saw it happen going into an Indian airfield near the coast at around 60ft RA.Wind shifted as we crossed the coast,aircraft accelerated and power comes back never to spool up again.At least with the A330 it tells you in seconds your crunch score.

[lomapaseo]

Any verfication that it really did damage the under carriage and not the fuselage?

I was under the impression that hard landings (vertical G's) damaged the fuselage before the gear struts.

[Mr @ Spotty M]

I understand at this time no damage has been found on any part of the aircraft.
However at this time Airbus say that both Main landing gears have to be changed.
More information from Mon to Airbus is being supplied and more information from Airbus on the reasons for removal of said gear is being requested.
Which part of above thread do both Fantom & RoyHudd find Rubbish or a Joke?

[PJ2]

Flight Detent;

The terms "hard" and "heavy" in the context of a touchdown seem to be interchangeable but I agree, the term "heavy" usually refers to near/at/over AUW.

A "hard" landing is defined in the AMM as a landing with a vertical acceleration of more than 1.75g at the c of g or a vertical speed of more than 600fpm. For an overweight (heavy :) ) landing, the acceptable VSI is reduced to 360fpm.

Vertical acceleration in 'g' can vary depending upon pitch rate change at touchdown (rotating NU due to a sudden pull on the stick in response to a high rate of descent), a/c weight, drift angle at touchdown, roll attitude and so on. Landings of over 2g's may not wrinkle fuselage skin depending on these factors.

Since no one has broached the topic, I would like to talk about the bogie-tilt on both the 330 and 340 series. While a touchdown on the rear truck can be very nice, depending upon spoiler deployment, reverser deployment, pitch rate (de-rotation manuever) and the usual environmental culprits, the second touchdown on the forward bogies can be very hard indeed.

The bogies are rotated, or tilted at an angle both during the takeoff and touchdown manuevers to provide greater tail clearance. The tilt is controlled both mechanically and hydraulically. This is separate from the 330/340's oleo shortening during retraction, which reduces the length of the oleos mechanically so that they will fit into the gear bay.

The subject of achieving a smooth landing on an Airbus A340/A330 is the topic of many discussions but what I fail to understand is, the design accepts some really hard touchdowns which for all intents and purposes are beyond the control of the pilot to reduce. Many times I've had it go on very nicely, with little remark from the front bogies but other times, after seemingly not changing the technique, it slams down. The '500 doesn't seem to do this nearly as much.

[fantom]

The bit, Mr Spotty, which implies the 330 is prone to hard and heavy landings.

[Mr @ Spotty M]

Thank you Fantom for clearing it up.

[RoyHudd]

Yep. The 330 is prone to soft landings, at least the maingear, in my pudgy little hands. Talk of hard landings is cobblers.

[PJ2]

RoyHudd;

I agree with you and with fantom...the 330 lands as smoothly as any large transport and is truly a joy to fly. It was the "bogie-unlock" phenomena giving the "second-landing" that I was wondering about. It doesn't happen all the time. And if you're not experiencing it either on the 330 or the 340, then I'd love to know how you're handling it and what's being done to avoid getting that bit of a thump when touching down because I haven't talked to anyone who's avoided it all the time. I'm not criticizing the airplane...it's a beautiful design, a great cockpit and a wonderful blend of automation. It's this one item I'm enquiring about...

Cheers

[guclu]

Well the main gear landing problem..........

If you land smootly the most rear gear then you have to bear in mind that the front rear gear is still way up in the air. And if your a/c is very light then you have to be extra carefull for the "second landing".

Well if you also marked it is more difficult to make a smooth "second landing" with a very light a/c. The problem is after landing the most rear gears if you just hold the sidestick back the a/c will fly until it can't fly anymore and will drop down from where it is and you will make the hard second landing.

I'm just smootly releasing little back pressure on the sidestick after a smooth first landing and with very small adjustments (release and back presssure cycles) let the main gears land but just wait a little bit for the reversers after initial back gears touch down unless you are landing a short rwy. When you feel that they are going to touch down this is usally 1-2 seconds after initial touch down then open the reversers and there you have second landing smoothly. It works for me.

[RoyHudd]

Ditto Guclu, gentle forward pressure momentarily after the rear gear has contacted, effectively landing the forward main gear wheels, thereafter landing the nosewheels, which can be trickier.

[Bernoulli]

Reading this thread just makes me deeply grateful to be flying the 767:)

[interpreter]

Bernoulli - me too. I like an aircraft that glides well!

[MarkD]

The A330 glides just fine - just ask Air Transat :uhoh:

[Off Stand]

So, is the a/c servicable or will it undergo repairs?

[Mr @ Spotty M]

Aircraft is having both main landing gears replaced.:{

[squeaker]

There is a specialist French car breakers on the A5 near Stanbridge, shall I check with them on the way home, just in case...

[ACMS]

Happened to CX in TPE a year or so back. Airbus were informed and initially said no worries. A day or so later they changed their minds. A/C needed a new gear.
I pax in the A330 to and from Oz a lot ( i mean 15 times a year ) and I hardly ever feel a smooth landing, the first touchdown is ok, but as the gear tilt the second touchdown is a real bump.
And watching other A330 landings from the fence or whilst taxiing in I see that all A330's ( from a lot of other carriers ) do the same thing, ie nice smooth touchdown on the rear wheels, seems to hover without tilting for seconds then crunch down on the front wheels.
Give me a nice 777 any day.

[unwiseowl]

Does anybody know what the circumstances were? Was PF capt or F/O? Was wx a factor?

[Smudger]

Christ, you lot, get a life.. If you are a commercial pilot you can't fart these days without getting the amateur third degree on Pprune. Get down the pub for Pete's sake.

[Sobelena]

So, tell me Smudger, how do you achieve a smooth 2nd fart? :}

[Smudger]

Sobelina

Years of practice my friend, years of practice.

Smudge

[hapzim]

Wx was good and experienced crew both seats.

[sdac]

3.2 g, allegedly. Quite heavy. Gear replacement comes in at 8 million, or so. Do Monarch require their pilots to repay that in instalments? Two Captains flying together; enough said.

[Jump Complete]

On the subject of certain aircraft being 'prone' to hard touch-downs (I personally find I have occasional days where I am prone to hard landings and the more I try to soften the landings, the worse they get) ...Is the B737-800 one of them? I have flown several times recently as a pax in 738's and most of the touch downs could best be described as 'positive.' Other people have commented the same, although usually mentioning the carrier rather than the aircraft type...I won't mention the airline as I don't think it is relevent, suffice to say they get a lot of coverage on this website! ;)

[old-timer]

dont look for crew faults folks, support the crews (pilots do, we know who we are)


M is a good operator with top crews

[NigelOnDraft]

I agree with you and with fantom...the 330 lands as smoothly as any large transport and is truly a joy to fly. It was the "bogie-unlock" phenomena giving the "second-landing" that I was wondering about. It doesn't happen all the time. And if you're not experiencing it either on the 330 or the 340, then I'd love to know how you're handling it and what's being done to avoid getting that bit of a thump when touching down because I haven't talked to anyone who's avoided it all the time. Flew the 340 a decade or so ago... The only way I could "avoid" it, and it goes against all "correct techniques", was a second flare ~2s after touchdown. This is when the spoilers deploy killing the lift and causing the "drop" if the 1st touchdown was "smooth".
The "correct technique" of course is to avoid the ultra smooth touchdown, and then the fronts are down before the spoilers. The technique I mention above is:
Technically incorrect
You'd better be aware of the tailscrape implications
Can work though... Now not flying the aircraft, watch all 330/340 landings with interest... and see/remember that "thump" just after the spoilers deploy and it "drops" :{

[sdac]

My 8 million was $(us).

2.7 g is still heavy.

Pity it wasn't 2 captains. Political angle here. It often goes wrong in inverse proportion to the ranks on the flight deck.

And I am not unsupportive of the flight deck. There but for the grace of God.

[Mach trim]

Is it after 1.6 g a inspection is required ?

After how many g's do you need to fix stuff on an ac ?

Of course there are other factors. Nosewheel.


Dont know about 330 but

had to move the thrust levers out of the climb detent to MCT as the autothrust wasn't spooling up on the 320 the other day. it would've been very hard. calm day too landing flaps 3