calling for flaps?

[tone_atlas]

I would like some insight how some of the crews handle flap calls..

pf calls for flaps 15

pnf = flaps 15 or flaps set 15 and indicating 15 ?

thx

[low n' slow]

We call:
PF: Flaps 15
PNF: Flaps 15 selected

When flaps are in selected position
PNF: Vref 15 xxx knots

/LnS

[Junkflyer]

Pf calls " flaps 10"
Pnf moves handle observes indicators moving and calls "flaps moving 10" and moves speed bug as applicable. (classic 74).

[beamer]

Each company will have different SOP for the mouth music - mine cannot decide whether it should be FLAP or FLAPS --- doh !

[zerozero]

In today's cost-cutting culture I'd suggest going with "Flap."

The ink you save could be your own.
:8

[BelArgUSA]

Boeing procedures from manufacturer's publications (747 FCTM or AOM) are -
xxx
PF calls "FLAPS XX"
PNF selects flaps xx and responds "FLAPS MOVING XX"
PNF resets airspeed bugs.
xxx
Note: if a "gate stop" is located between two flaps settings - in addition...
PNF responds "SPEED CHECKED - FLAPS MOVING XX" and resets airspeed bugs.
xxx
These procedures are observed by most Boeing operators worldwide...
USA carriers often do differently since they know better how to design planes.
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

[tone_atlas]

I see most of the responses here involve moving the bug once flaps are selected.. Is this because the ref changes, or do you reset the bug just to bug a speed limitation when xx amount of flaps are selected?


Please forgive the ignorance, my a/c only weighs 28,000 pounds

[zerozero]

There's nothing wrong with honest questions and to hell with anyone that has a problem with it.

We change the bug setting because the minimum maneuvering speed changes with each flap setting.

Vref won't change with flap settings, per se. It's based on your weight and *planned* flap setting at landing (and other factors).

I hope that clears up some of your questions.

[Airbus_a321]

one way to do it:

PF: "Flaps 1"
PNF: "speed checked", and when selected, "Flaps 1"

That's all. End of procedure.
BUT 1000 companies - 1001 call outs!! (minimum) and every company insists that their SOP "callout" is the only "correct" one:O:O:O

[BelArgUSA]

Each airlines want it their ways...
Wrong...
xxx
- The SOPs and check-list calls are actually reflecting the airline's chief pilot´s -
(1) former airline SOPs (then no need for him to study new procedures)
(2) accidents and incidents record (he forgot the gear once)
(3) aviation violations (busted altitudes a couple of times)
(4) color blindness (three GREENS - as he confuses with RED lights)
(5) hearing loss (check-list responses repeated twice)
(6) memory impairment (100 feet to minimums call)
(7) visual acuity (runway in sight call)
xxx
:}
Happy contrails

[411A]

In the company I work for now, with Lockheed L1011 aircraft, the standard is...

Call for what you want, and it is selected.
Period.
None of this 'speed checked' business, nor any new bugs set.
After all, as a pilot, you are supposed to know what the flap limit speeds are, and once thus selected, what the minimum maneuvering speed is.

Can't remember the limit speed?
Look on the flap position indicator.
Lockheed thought of everything.

[AerocatS2A]

On the little Dash 8 so no shagging around with changing the bugs:

PF: "Flap 15"
PNF: "15 selected"
PNF: "15 set"

[DutchBird-757]

Our SOP;

PF: "Flaps 18"
PNF: "Speed checked"...pause..."Flaps"...(say slowly and grab handle to confirm flap lever and select)..."18"
PNF: "Flaps 18 set" once actually set

On taxi out we adopt a different procedure. PF calls "Select flaps". PNF does the same routine as above stating the flaps as per takeoff data card. Primary reason is to cross check flap setting and to make you think about what you are selecting for t/o. This because on regular occasions we takeoff with landing (!) flap set as well.

[puff m'call]

Ok, well i might as well throw in my bit.

Out here in the "land of plenty" where we fly lots of 777's and our management reckon they know better that everyone else, we do it this way:

PF... "Flaps 1" :ok:

PNF... Selects Flap 1.... and says nothing! :=

comments on a post card please.................;)

[411A]

PF... "Flaps 1"

PNF... Selects Flap 1.... and says nothing!

Sounds like a good plan to me.
All this chit-chat (speed checked...flaps moving...flaps selected) nonsense is just simply not required with professional airline crews...or at least it should not be....:}

[tone_atlas]

I like AEROCATS2A's approach (pun intended) simple, concise..

[Old Smokey]

I'm with puff m'call and 411A on this one, far too much VD in our cockpits these days (Verbal Diarrhoea).

For God's sake, I'm a professional pilot, the PNF is also a professional pilot, if I call "Flaps 5", I monitor that the PNF has selected it after checking the speed, I monitor that the Flaps are running, and I monitor that the flaps reach the selected position. So too, does the PNF, and as he re-sets the speed bug, I monitor that too.

If the PNF does not respond to the command, I assume that he hasn't heard it, and repeat it a little louder. If he still doesn't hear it, I begin to suspect incapacitation, but that's another issue......

Sometimes I think that to some, all of the chants and mantras are more important than just doing the job.

Regards,

Old Smokey

[zerozero]

Interaction (verbal or otherwise) between crewmembers is *almost* as important as handling the plane.

Personally I hate it when a crewmember goes non-verbal on me and just points or grunts.

I try to respond to all calls or requests with at *least* "roger" or "that checks".

If I make a call or request I'd appreciate the same courtesy.

:cool:

[Tee Emm]

Quote:
Sometimes I think that to some, all of the chants and mantras are more important than just doing the job.

Couldn't agree more. Some people would seem to prefer to fly the aeroplane into a smoking hole than get an SOP call wrong.:mad:
(well obviously it's not smoking yet,but you get the idea

Even if the aircraft is in a terminal dive, a good support pilot will call "1000 to go" in the last split second of his life.

[Airbus_a321]

Some people would seem to prefer to fly the aeroplane into a smoking hole than get an SOP call wrong.:D:D:D:D

and those people unfortunately getting more and more and more each day. I don't know why.
Maybe nowadays the aircraft manufacturers make flying too easy. So to keep us busy a lot of airlines implementing talking, talking, talking by (rather often) completely unnecessarily SOP.
Involved in the cockpit working-atmosphere since a couple of years now, the working enviroment inside the cockpits has changed completely.
Nowadays its much more a TALKshow for three (incl the CVR), instead of a just a professional flight management office.

[low n' slow]

Obviously it's about the type. Someone piloting a big boeing that has the speed tape and limitations all woven into a neat little instrument, will have no use of a callout of the new speed. An an old thing like the SF340 requires some talking to get it right. The Vref's vary with the weight and there's no way of knowing all the speeds by heart. And the bugs don't bug them selves so we have to do it ourselves. PF is not going to look down and try to read the fineprint of the speedbooklet at that time so someone is going to have to tell him the speeds. And I think anyone will agree that it's good use of the PNF to do this whilst the PF is flying the plane.

Of course it's a good idea to keep callouts and such, as few as possible. But some of the callouts are absolutely vital. Basically anything to do with configuration. I know someone will bring up the GPWS (too low flap, too low gear), but I see these as the last wall of defense. The planes are individuals and they need to be treated as such. It's a very bad idea to fly an ATR the same way you fly an Airbus for example.

Regards/ LnS

[stilton]

With all this yakking you can miss the important stuff.

Routine configuration / speed changes changes and similar should be handled simply as that, with no further word necessary.

Save the extraneous comments for when something is not working correctly.

Someone called it the quiet dark cockpit, as it should be.

[BelArgUSA]

I fully agree with the idea of minimum verbiage and theatricals in the flight deck. As I am constantly involved with training, I do a lot of comparison with other procedures and SOPs with other air carriers, yet same type of aircraft and using the original Boeing QRH and AOMs...
xxx
True, my airline is strictly adhering to Boeing procedures, and this in the English language. The fact that the crews' language is not English, probably helps us to reduce the amount of words in SOPs.
xxx
I remember my old PanAm days, as a F/E and F/O on 707s and 727s... we had a "Shakespearean" captain native of Oxford who indulged on using words as "undercarriage"... we were in an old 707-321, taking off with 30 flaps. His next call should have been "Flaps 20" (we said "twenny" in the "Colonies").
Well, he called for "Flaps two-zeero"...
The F/O moved flaps handle to "0" and confirmed "Flaps moving to 0"... :D
Nothing much was said for the rest of the Atlantic crossing...
xxx
Had another situation, recently, in a 747 simulator.
Engine fire drills practice, nº 3 fire warning... F/E called "engine fire nº 4"
Our SOPs specify that the call is "engine fire" NOT specifying "which engine"...
Engine failures require the same procedures, until the call for the check list, at 1,000 AGL, after flaps retraction.
All that extra yakyak can create problems...
xxx
Another simulator situation... Before takeoff briefing...
Most of the time, we merely say "standard briefing" when circumstances are standard. We know darned well what we do prior to V1 or after V1 regarding engine failures or fires... One of the captains gave us a briefing that took some 45 seconds, if not 1 minute...
So, at the end of the session, I requested the left seat for "personal practice" and gave a briefing that was similar to a Vatican high mass in Latin. And I briefed that I would "continue the takeoff" for engine fire/failure prior to V1 and "abort the takeoff if fire/failure after v1...
Nobody noticed or told me "say that again"... :E
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

[Tee Emm]

Talking about talking. Recently was astounded by the number of read and do checklist items in the Metro 227. While the number of spoken checks depend on the operator, the following is a bit overboard? This from an Australian operator of Metro aircraft.

83 challenge and response up to point of starting engines.
24 challenge and response after start drills.
19 challenge and response between after start complete and airborne.
11 challenge and response after take off checks.
11 challenge and response climb to cruise checks.
31 challenge and response from top of descent to touch down.
10 challenge and response after landing checks.
Total 189 challenge and response with many more to come for shut down checks.

Compare that little lot to the Boeing 737 manufacturer's recommended checklist of 42 challenge and response items from before start to shut down. Do more checks mean a safer operation?

[low n' slow]

Crikey! Challenge and response is a good thing when it comes to things such as fuel cocks to off when airborne, but I mean, what is there to challenge and respond to during the parking checklist?

I have to summarize my SOP and see if it's as alarming as your metro stuff...
/LnS