Microlight fly-in Sandown..poor airmanship

[jamestkirk]

If anyone out there knows of a blue/yellow microlight out of sandown that:

Transitted through the Shoreham ATZ without permission (or talking to them) at circuit height. Whilst popping in and out of cloud (I am sure those things should not go in IMC)

Then came head on to me whilst i was established left base. If that was not enough, then turned left as I took avoiding action right.

If anyone knows that pilot (and i use that term losely). Please inform him that he/she displayed appalling airmanship and in desperate need of some re-training.

[chevvron]

Things never change. Many years ago at Denham well before there was a hard runway , I was climbing out from runway 23 when a Comanche appeared on my left, flew along runway 26 and disappeared under my engine cowling. I then heard the CFI transmit on the A/G frequency to caution all in the 23 circuit (4 or 5) to caution the Comanche, as in those days 23 was left hand and 26 was right hand, thus base leg traffic would be head on! Course not a word on RTF from the Comanche pilot, but it WAS a/g so everyone kept a lookout.

[adverse-bump]

if you have a problem with another pilot, dont bitch on a rumour network, report it to the CAA or the airprox board if you feel needed. but moaning on here and trying to get hold of him (to beat him up, or what ever you are planning!) makes you not much better than him! - maybe slightly better, as you realise when some1 is abit ****!

I can give you details of how to report these things if you like...

:sad:

[shortstripper]

There I was, enjoying a lovely flight home from Sandown, when this idiot out of nowhere is coming straight at me!

I thought I was safe as the ANO says "clear of cloud", and with me going in and out, nobody else should have been there! I did think about switching on the radio as the bloke looked like he wanted to say something. Mind you, it would have been a waste of time as I still had it set on Sandown (left my chart in the bin having puked over it last night cos of too much beer :\ ... I didn't write down any other frequencies as I use the chart for that) Still no harm done, I could see he had somewhere to go if he didn't like the weather as there was a lovely airfield right below :p

Some people just don't know how to have fun ... he looked awful serious :hmm:

SS :p

[jamestkirk]

please grow up.

but moaning on here and trying to get hold of him (to beat him up, or what ever you are planning!)

Again, grow up. i never said anything of the sort.

, as you realise when some1 is abit ****!

If you think that the actions of that pilot were as described as professionally as you did above then you seem to have alot in common with him/her.
I can give you details of how to report these things if you like...

I have reported it.


This IS a rumour network and even if I knew the pilot, I would not name him/her here.

The post is a serious one about the lack of skills displayed.

And what might interest you is that I have just spoken to an experienced microlight pilot this afternoon about the incident and was told;

and i quote, "some microlight pilots i know are scared of the radio and would rather infringe".

The infringement was at the second busiest training airport in the country and one of the busiest overall. Not a good move.

So next time you post, try being a bit more constructive

[adverse-bump]

:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d

[Knight Paladin]

Second busiest training airfield in the country?!? I think not!

Yes, the chap in question has probably made a fairly big mistake - but I'd suggest a navigational one rather than intentionally busting through an ATZ. Hands up everyone who's never made a navigational error in their life? Anyone? Didn't think so.

And before this turns into some kind of micro-bashing exercise, I have seen plenty enough examples of genuinely horrendous 'airmanship' from the spamcan community, too many to mention. My experiences of the micro world are limited but I suggest that people in glasshouses would be well advised to restrict their stone throwing activities.

[englishal]

Oh dear, another "I always fly perfectly and everyone else displays appauling airmanship" thread.

Stop whinging and put it down to experience. The other pilots POV may have been completey different from yours. Maybe they had an emergency? Who knows.

[Nipper2]

Trivial...

How about the guy in the Jodel today who called finals to land at North Weald on 02 with two JPs (correctly) on short finals for 20?

Following an exasperated 'Go Around' from the super-efficient AG radio getting as close to ATC as they dared, he then flew a 'bomber' circuit so far to the north that he infringed Stansted zone.

You do wonder how these people make themselves a cup of tea in the morning?

[Knight Paladin]

Should start a thread for people to get other people's mistakes off their own chests, keep it all in one place!

[maxdrypower]

Well heres a change , I went for a flight and through various reasons ended up infringing the zone of one of the uks biggest airports , causing an airbus to improv some holding type manouevers . I would like to hope that I woudnt have been slagged off like this . I was a relatively low hour ppl at the time . I phoned the atc unit concerned apologised visited them and saw my radar track on the screen and actions that had to be taken. I even submitted a chirp report. I am not the first person who has done this nor will I be the last . Simple fact is none of us are perfect and those that think they are , well they can fly without me . I learnt from this incident and hopefuly this will not happen again . Isnt that what a PPl is, a licence to learn ?

[Rans Flyer]

"at circuit height. Whilst popping in and out of cloud " If the cloud base was that low, were you flying a low level circuits or were you IFR?

It sounds like the poor Pilot simply made a nav error whilst flying in less than ideal conditions. Don't get me me wrong, he shouldn't have done it.
If people go flying when the cloud base is (I presume) 900' things can happen. Low level nav in poor visibility is very difficult.

Rans,
www.FlightForLife.co.uk

[bunnywabbit]

Did the rally go okay. The weather was a bit naughty!
Why moan about microlights after some of antics at the Isle of Wight Pop Festival. If Mick Jagger takes up flying the Isle of Wight will sink!!!!

[microlight AV8R]

"Move along now, nothing to see here"

[snapper41]

Have a look at this thread over on the military forum:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=279491
I'm in the RAF, and fly a microlight (C42), so I'm on both sides of the fence! These things happen; they shouldn't, but they do. Learn from your own, and other people's, mistakes.

[DFC]

Let me see if I got this right;

You know the microlight that you saw near Shoreham came from Sandown?

If that is the case then you should use that great ESP and think up the pilot's telephone number and give them a call!!

Perhaps you should review a little air law - i.e.

Aircraft operating in the vicinity shall conform to the traffic pattern or avoid it. If you were left base and in the pattern you should be making left turns - the other pilot was probably avoiding the pattern i.e. operating corectly by turning left away from the circuit that you were following.

Perhaps he wasa bit shocked after encountering IMC, finding that he had infringed and ATZ and to cap it all - after leaving the ATZ (as you say) has to contend with circuit traffic outside the ATZ!!!

That is the thing about moaning - one usually uncovers a few of one's own failings also.

The report will no doubt reveal all!

Regards,

DFC

[Genghis the Engineer]

You know the microlight that you saw near Shoreham came from Sandown?
To be fair, it would be about a 95% certainty that any microlight seen around the south coast this weekend was coming or going to/from Sandown.

G

[bigflyingrob]

We fly right next to the Dehavilland Heritage museum and regulary get GA planes flying round the museum right on our approach path. Never heard one talk to us on the radio in 14 years.
A couple of years ago we were treated to an impromtu air display there which made trying to land quite exciting.
From the talk on here it looks as if flying in a zone is a REALLY DANGEROUS THING but flying against someones circuit pattern while looking at the nice little planes on the ground is OK
So yes we all make errors, some more deliberate than others.

[jamestkirk]

Read air law on aviding action. He was not supposed to be there. Your statement is ridiculous to say the least (irrelevant of what you fly). How can you be a bit shocked to enter IMC. You could see the cu for miles. A little knowledge and all that....................!

I have never slagged off the general population of microlight pilots. It's some of you who are making a them and us point..not me. I have NEVER mentioned microlights on any thread before so calm down.

Knight Paladin
Shorehams training movement up to may 2007 were c.44,000. Beaten only by Gloucester. So I THINK YES.

[Knight Paladin]

Rob - I understand your point, but as I believe your airfield doesn't have an ATZ, unlike Shoreham, I'm afraid your case doesn't hold as much water. If every aircraft flying in the UK was required to avoid every airfield, regardless of status, then nav-planning would be a nightmare!

[Knight Paladin]

Kirk:

RAF Valley - c.65,000
RAF Cranwell - c.46,000
RAF Linton-on-Ouse - c53,000
...... I could go on.

Now get back in your box.

[jamestkirk]

Ah yes. RAF airfields are a great comparison.

I will get back in my keeping safe in the circuit, flying within the limitations of my licence, displaying the correct airmanship box. If you like, I will show you what it looks like so you can get one.

[Knight Paladin]

JT - Just pointing out the fallacy involved when you start quoting stupid factoids, especially if they turn out to be wrong!

[flexy]

I am knackered and a bit damp still but what a great weekend....flight back on Sunday much better than arriving on Friday....eventually......

[jamestkirk]

You did not sate weather your figures were for 5 months or the whole year.

Please supply the proof as i just am.

Shoreham 2006 - 69,142

CAA website - Search aircraft movements

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airport_data/2006Annual/Table_03_1_Aircraft_Movements_2006.csv

Also, sort by aero club and you will see Shoreham at 49,000 movements. More than I stated. HOW WRONG IS THAT?

I look forward to your response and link

[Genghis the Engineer]

Now now ladies, there's no need for argument.

(1) Any pilot should respect any ATZ

(2) Whether there's an ATZ or not, any pilot at circuit height should respect the circuit pattern of any airfield passed or overflown.

(3) There are lots of busy training airfields in Britain, but whether there's one aircraft in the circuit or 20, the circuit should still be respected.

(4) Every pilot ever qualified has at some point made a navigational error - some of these involve inadvertently entering controlled airspace.

(5) Nobody ever screws up deliberately - those who have need a bit of friendly advice, not public humiliation.

(6) BigFlyingRob's airfield doesn't have a published frequency, isn't on the Jeppesen chart (I don't have a CAA chart to hand, is it in there?) and isn't in Pooleys. I've talked to them - on the microlight general use frequency, but that wouldn't be reasonable of a passing light aeroplane - and anyhow, most of the aircraft based there don't always use radio. However, local traffic (e.g. the training traffic out of Elstree) should certainly know it's there and respect the circuit, whilst passing traffic should keep a good look out and try to fit in with an airfield underneath or near them. Given it has "PPR" in enormous letters painted on the top of one of the hangars, it's not that hard to spot!

G

[flexy]

Get a flight information service if poss when transiting or near an atz. I got one from both Benson and Cranfield on the way down to Sandown and both were VERY helpful. It also helps pass the boredom albeit it's no Radio 4 (sorry Cranfield) but having something to listen to is good!

[jamestkirk]

If you have an ADF on board try 1458kz. 'Sunrise radio that can play some rocking asian tunes.

[bar shaker]

We are assuming that he had not been given a transit 15 minutes earlier and we are assuming that he was not avoiding the circuit. We are also assuming you were not flying a bomber command circuit, putting your base leg a long way out from where he would have expected.

With you in circuit, on base, and the runway on your left, which way would should he expect you to turn? Here's a clue... if you hadn't seen him, which way would you have turned?

It sounds a regrettable situation but 'see and avoid' worked.

I hope I never make a mistake that's witnessed by some on here.

[flexy]

ADF? I only have a stick on compass from halfords...

[flexy]

On the plus side I saw some excellent airmanship exhibited by the micro guys at sandown against some challenging weather conditions and a very busy circuit. Workload is very high with a decent wind and circuit pattern etc - more so that a spamcan which will tend to stay where you put it to a greater degree - Well done to all the guys and girls that made the trip and maintained an excellent safety record.

[jamestkirk]

I don't know if you fly at Shoreham but wide cicuits are a thorn in our sides here as instructors. So no, I would't have been on a wide cicuit.

Your right though. He/she rather turnd the wrong way or just had no idea where they were and was just turning on track or something similar.

Flexy -
Just to clarify: It is not the type of aircraft pilot I was criticising, just the pilot. The title of this thread might be a little acidic but not meant that way.

The halfords one would probably be more accurate than the Cessna ones

[Knight Paladin]

JT - Steady on old chum! Really can't be arsed to get into some kind of willy-waving contest!

As Genghis says, it doesn't matter how many movements there are, an ATZ is an ATZ. I'm sticking to my guns as regards airfields without them though - those operating from such places (which does include me, on occasion) should be conscious of that fact during their circuit operations. Not saying that it gives everyone carte-blanche to blat through at circuit height without a care in the world on a good VFR day when they could easily go over the top, but if you need to fly at such circuit height for weather on any other reason, then at the end of the day it's bog standard class G. Although it behoves you to have your eyes out on stalks!

[Baron Von Mildred]

Avoiding the circuit of airfield without an ATZ is an impossibility in many cases, since many airstrips are not marked on maps or found in Pooley's. lockyears etc. Not only is the circuit direction unknown, but the existence of the airfield may not be known until you happen to see it (or not!).

I recently came across an unpublished strip with runway lights!

[jamestkirk]

To be honest, I did not read your 'outside ATZ' comments.. I have no opinion really on airfields without an ATZ othe than I am sure that it's just down to discipline and good lookout.

Shoreham though is as stated. It can be murdurously busy with VFR and IFR tarffic. The IFR procedures being mostly oustide controlled airspace.

My main gripe was the pilot concerned being in and out of cloud in the realms of that VFR and potentially IFR traffic with no radio. It was not against microlights as i quite like the look of them (OK some of them). It was the above incident in an aircraft that should not have been in that stage of flight inside Shorehams ATZ.

I agree that VMC on top is great if you know where you are, and you have the aircraft to do it in and you can safely descend through that coud again. Spatial disorientation / controlled flight into terrain and all that.....

[snapper41]

Found on another aviation forum:
Sun 10 Jun john blake - Winsford
Just got back from Cosford Air Show, will some body get hold of the TWO microlite NUMTIES who managed to stop the Red Arrows display ,and tear up their licenses,that is providing they even have one. As a private pilot myself ,I was totally disgusted by these cowboys,although I must say not totally surprised. The Microlite Community must get its act together and root out the idiots who seem to be endemic in their organisation !!
Is this just Mr Blake's view of microlight pilots, or is it commonly-held in the GA community? It seems that he has never transgressed some aspect of air law :rolleyes:

[Genghis the Engineer]

Albeit quite a few laws of spelling and grammar!

G

[Rans Flyer]

snapper41, Before this thread turns into 'Microlight pilots are shoddy, and GA pilots are brilliant and never make mistakes' I remember the GA pilot doing the same over Eastbourne last year.
The year before that the Red Arrows were inbound to an airfield and called up on the wrong frequency, which had changed 6 month earlier, presumably they hadn't read the notam ;-)

What I'm trying to say is that it doesn't matter if your a Red Arrows / GA / Microlight pilot, we all make mistakes, and hopefully learn from them.

Rans,
www.FlightForLife.co.uk

[snapper41]

Rans;
I concur fully! I wasn't attempting to start a microlight v GA argument; we're all flyers after all - it doesn't matter what you get airborne in. That's why I find Mr Blake's comments disappointing.

[niknak]

Just to put into perspective, I made the most monumental **** up at work this morning, it was largley down to being distracted by the introduction of new equipment and not paying attention to the job in hand.
There's absolutely no excuse for my error and I held my hands up and admitted as such, both pilots could have (quite rightly) taken it further but elected not to do so.

I suspect that their action was down to the fact that I admitted to my mistake, professional respect and the fact that it happens to us all at least once in every decade...:}

[jonkil]

Tis em old screens in the cockpit :8... ye know the ones.... we pink lines linking two places :sad:.... ye just "fly it" :confused:.... cant hold the poor pilot responsible :=:}