Another "is it legal" question....Landing in the open?

[tegwin]

Have done a search on this one and havn't shown up much....

Was just a hyperthetical thought that popped into my mind....

I live very close to the welsh mountains and fly over/through them regularly...(ppl(H))

Is it legal to land (providing its safe to do so) on the open moorland in the mountains for an hour or so to have a picnic? [I have identified a site which is open, flat and smooth (in the lower foothills) and should be uneffected by mountain winds...also the time I plan to go there shouldnt be anyone around]..The area is used a lot by 4x4's at the weekends so its not like I will be adding any more polution or erosion etc..

Obviously getting a non-start would not be a good idea in the mountains and watching the weather would be important...

The only other thing that was of a slight concern would be other aircraft flying overhead....would they assume a forced landing and call for help due to the heli being parked in such an exposed and unusual location?

The only reason I was even thinking this atall was that im contemplating popping the question to my ladyfiend and this picnic in the mountains sounds like a good idea in my head...:8

[Genghis the Engineer]

Offhand, I think that if you do no damage and the area isn't specifically fenced off for private use then...

England - no (But you'd be committing civil trespass, so committing no crime so long as you don't do any damage - you can just be ordered off by the landowner).

Scotland - yes.


But it would be worth checking the new "right to roam" legislation, which may make things easier in England.

G

[Fly Stimulator]

tegwin,

No need to actually land in order to propose (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/main.jhtml?xml=/property/2007/04/14/pfolie114.xml)!

[BRL]

This is the best way of doing it. Click Here.......... (http://www.hellasga.com/gallery/albums/psatha/psatha2.zip)

This video always brings a big smile to my face when I watch it.. :ok:

[SkyHawk-N]

contemplating popping the question to my ladyfiend
Shouldn't you wait until you leave school? :E

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

I believe that landing in the open without causing damage is legal; microlight and glider drivers (and baloon botherers) do it all the time. It's landing not in the open that opens conflict with Rule 5 (or is Rule 6 now?)

[muffin]

I have often thought the same while flying over the remote bits of the Pennines at 50 feet agl, but the equally remote possibility of not being able to start up again has always deterred me. I had a small problem recently which entailed an engineers visit to my home site and the bill for that was over £800 just for time and travel, so I hate to think what a visit to the trackless wastes would cost.

Good idea though and I doubt if anybody would even know let alone complain about it.

[Crash one]

Could be an embarrassing ride home if she says no. Or does she get a choice, engagement ring or SAS survival pack.

[one dot right]

Could be an embarrassing ride home if she says no. Or does she get a choice, engagement ring or SAS survival pack.:D
the message you have entered is too short. please use at least ten characters!

[RatherBeFlying]

First of all, drive out to your proposed landing site and pace it out on foot.

Next, what kind of a/c do you plan to land there? Some are better on grass strips than others.

Remember to have a look at the vegetation and any obstacles on the takeoff path.

Density altitude can significantly diminish performance; so, calculate it and work out the takeoff length and initial climb rate.

It's much easier in a glider -- all we have to do is land and if the towplane driver is reluctant to try the landout site, we bring out the trailer;)

[helicopter-redeye]

First of all, drive out to your proposed landing site and pace it out on foot.


Did he say he was in a helicopter?

[niknak]

You need the permission of the land owner prior to landing ( unless it's an emergency landing of course).
If you don't get said permission, your insurance is invalid - check the small print....

[Crash one]

Never mind all this permission & insurance stuff, get a couple of Apaches to go in first to check out the area, then go in with four Blackhawks full of Marines to secure the place while you have your picnic. Who is going to complain?

[davidatter708]

BRL I dont get that video what is it showing

[Heliport]

You need the permission of the land owner prior to landing ( unless it's an emergency landing of course).
If you don't get said permission, your insurance is invalid - check the small print....


That usually comes up at some point in these discussions.Where is the law that says you need the permission of the land owner prior to landing?

ANO? :confused:
Rules of the Air? :confused:

[chrisN]

Where are the lawyers when you need them?!

My readings in the past have suggested that the law of trespass applies to being on foot, horseback, vehicle or aircraft - needs no bit of ANO or ROTA, therefore.

Dunno about insurance for power planes, but emergency landings without PPR in gliders are covered by our insurance OK.

Once an aircraft has landed, the landowner can get quite sniffy - but if e.g. he/she says you can't take the aircraft/glider away again, it puts him/her into a position of having to look after it adequately, AIUI. All a bit messy if good relations are not preserved.

So my take (and most glider [pilots) is not to casually land on private property without PPR unless forced to, but then apologise, seek a reasonable way out (almost always OK in my experience) and pay compensation if asked for any damage. I once paid towards the local church restoration fund, as requested, even though there was no damage to the field - not worth leaving an upset farmer.

Anyone who just lands regardless of the normal courtesies is going to do much harm to the GA community reputation, IMHO.

Chris N.

[ProfChrisReed]

This lawyer was in Berlin.

ChrisN has got it pretty much right. Glider pilots aren't normally trespassing because necessity (i.e. no choice) is a defence to trespass. For field landings we only have a choice of possible fields (if we've done it right), but no choice but to land in one of them.

If you could elect to stay flying, you're a trespasser. Assuming you don't cause damage to land or livestock, there's nothing to sue you for. However, the PR damage to GA is the real worry.

I'd suggest contacting the landowner and telling the romantic story - all the farmers I know are softies deep down, so I think you'd have a good chance. As you'll want to view the site on foot (gliders are designed to cope with rather more roughness in the terrain than powered GA, if what I read about the consequences of forced landings is correct) you can find out who that is. If you add that you're fully insured - and you have checked that out, havent you - that should cover all the farmer's concerns.

[BHenderson]

We regularly land off-site in the North of England. Our favourite site is Hartside Cafe near Alston in Cumbria:

http://www.visitcumbria.com/pen/hartside.htm

We land just the other side of the road as seen from above. It can be a good introduction to mountain landings on windy days at 1900ft.

Bobby

[RatherBeFlying]

First of all, drive out to your proposed landing site and pace it out on foot.

Did he say he was in a helicopter?Touche:ouch:

[Sedbergh]

Be very very certain there are no livestock within a 2 mile radius or Farmer Brown could sue you for scaring 100 sheep over a precipice, losing all their lambs, the cows going dry etc etc.

And if it's near a racing stud your insurance cover wouldn't get anywhere close to paying for one of those stallions, and if you had landed deliberately your insurers would probably refuse liability anyway.

Glider pilots can plead necessity, can plead poverty "I can't even afford an engine" and do it quietly. :eek:

Helicopter pilots couldn't.:uhoh:

I would say minimum of PPR just to cover your a***

[Whirlybird]

If you go back to the original question, he's a PPL(H), so will be in a helicopter. He's checked out the site and reckons it's OK.

I always thought you had to get the landowner's permission. Well, maybe you don't legally, but it seems like a good idea...particularly if you're going to park there and have a picnic! But if it's open moorland, and not obviously owned by anyone.... Personally, I'd just go. I heard once of a helicopter pilot who carried a couple of bottles of wine, so that he could give one to any irate landowners who objected to his landing in such situations. Apparently it usually worked. :ok:

I doubt if other aircraft would worry about seeing your helicopter parked - that's what helicopters do!

Good luck - with the flight, the landing, and...the rest of it. :ok:

[chrisN]

One other thing from tegwin's first post of the question: "The only other thing that was of a slight concern would be other aircraft flying overhead....would they assume a forced landing and call for help due to the heli being parked in such an exposed and unusual location?"
D&D have now asked us, and the BGA is trying to get all outlanding glider pilots, to telephone D&D when landing out and advise when it is a normal outlanding with no injuries and no damage to the glider. This avoids emergency services scrambling rescue heli's etc. (as has happened when well-meaning passers-by or overflying aircraft report a "crash").
Might be a courtesy to do the same if you land your heli in unusual places.
Chris N.

[Bronx]

This thread shows the difference between the American 'can do' and British ' can't do' culture. As if there aint enough rules in the UK already without making some new ones up. :)

All the guy's thinking of doing is landing his helicopter up in the mountains miles from anywhere and he's been told it's illegal, it's commiting civil trespass, his insurance will be invalid, he's gotta trace the land-owner for prior permission and now he should inform the emergency services he'll be landing a helicopter off airport. :rolleyes:

[stickandrudderman]

Sometimes it better to just keep quiet and get on with it!:ok:

[Julian Hensey]

You guys might like this.

MEANING OF ARTICLE 168(1) OF THE AIR NAVIGATION ORDER 2005

Article 168(1) of the Air Navigation Order 2005 provides that, subject to the obligations of the holder of a public use aerodrome licence to make the aerodrome available in accordance with the terms of his licence, nothing in the Order or any Regulations made under it confers any right
to land in any place as against the owner of the land or other persons interested in the land. This does not make it an offence for a pilot to land without the landowner's permission. What the article provides is that the Air Navigation Order does not confer any right to land as against the landowner. So whereas a pilot who lands without permission may be a trespasser and may be liable to compensate the landowner if he causes damage, he will not have committed a criminal offence under the Air Navigation Order.

Robin Allan
Deputy Secretary & Legal Adviser
Civil Aviation Authority
22 February 2007

[niknak]

Would the American "can do" culture be the same arrogant and ignorant culture that involves them getting involved in major conflicts on a Global basis, getting thousands of their own people killed and all to no avail?

I do believe that it is.

What we all should remember is that it is the very folk who invented and supported the notion of covering your arse and sueing the butt off your neighbour for the most trivial of misdameanours, were.........

Americans....:rolleyes::rolleyes::ugh: