Response to "Please pass your message"

[PompeyPaul]

Am just perusing my CAP413 and enjoying what has turned out to be a magnificent read.

I am slightly confused by the response to "please pass your message" though ?

Chapter 3 - page 6 - 1.5.3

When instructed by the ATS Unit to 'pass your message', the reply should contain the following information, Whenever possible in the order specified:

A) Aircraft call sign \ type
B) Departure point & destination
C) Present position
D) Level
E) Additional details / Intention

We are then treated to a very good pilot who rattles off this information with ease.

G-CD, Cessna172, from Borton to Walden, 15Nm South of Westbury, altitude 2500 feet Wessex 1008, VFR tracking to Wells


This guy sounds like he knows what he's doing, he almost definately gets the chicks at parties.

However, "1.6 Position reporting" on the next page states


Position reports shall contain the following elements of information:

A) Aircraft identification
B) Position
C) Time
D) Level
E) Next position and ETA


Some hot shot top gunner then gives us an example

Fastair 345 Wicken 47 FL280 Marlow 57

Suddenly our Cessna pilot has become unstuck, he hasn't reported his position using the position reporting. Whilst I understand he's passed some of the information, he is missing some stuff out. Surely it should be:
G-CD, Cessna172, from Borton to Walden, 15Nm South of Westbury (time), altitude 2500 feet Wessex 1008, (next destination) (ETA @ destination) VFR tracking to Wells

Which is confusing because CAP413 seems to contradict itself ?

Any advice or input greatly received. PLEASE don't tell me what happens at the end of the book though, I can feel the suspense building and don't want to ruin it. Also does anybody know if they plan to do a film version ? I actually thought it would transfer quite well to the west end as a musical.

[Henry Hallam]

It's about keeping radio time to a minimum and avoiding unnecessary information. The "position" in the "pass your message" reply is not a complete position report. No need to specify the time, the ATS unit knows what the current time is. She will have a general idea of your routing by knowing your destination; if you're planning something a little unusual it doesn't hurt to mention your next turning point but if she needs to know, she'll ask.

Most of that position reporting stuff is intended for things like long oceanic or desert flights where your information may need to be relayed by an airliner or something, and it would be important to know what time the original message was sent and when the next one can be expected.

[Blinkz]

Not sure what your confused about? The position report example given is correct? Remember CAP413 is the complete RT manual and caters for people flying things other the cessnas hehe.

In the example given, Fastair 345 is the a/c identifier, you don't need to say the type again as the controller will already have this information from when you joined his freq (from the response to pass your message) He then states his position, Wicken, and the time, 47. His level in this case is FL280, and his next point is Marlow at 57. It is all very brief to save time on what is usually a bust freq.

In your example of what you think you need to say there is a lot of unimportant info. Like I said you don't need to say Cessna as the controller already knows this, you don't need to say where you or from or going as the controller already knows this too. You do need to give your position, the current time and your altitude. then give your next position expected and the eta for it. NOT the eta for your destination, unless that is the next point you will report.

Does that make sense? Remember a position report is just an update to the controller of where you are.

[PompeyPaul]

In your example of what you think you need to say there is a lot of unimportant info. Like I said you don't need to say Cessna as the controller already knows this, you don't need to say where you or from or going as the controller already knows this too. You do need to give your position, the current time and your altitude. then give your next position expected and the eta for it. NOT the eta for your destination, unless that is the next point you will report.
Precisely, which is why CAP413 suggests it should be
G-CD, Cessna172, from Borton to Walden, 15Nm South of Westbury (time), altitude 2500 feet Wessex 1008, (next destination) (ETA @ destination) VFR tracking to Wells
which is significantly different to the example it gives of
G-CD, Cessna172, from Borton to Walden, 15Nm South of Westbury, altitude 2500 feet Wessex 1008, VFR tracking to Wells
Thus contradicting itself, in my view of course.

[Blinkz]

no the example it gives of the position report is the fastair 345 thing.

I think your confusing pass your message and position reports.

[dublinpilot]

Paul,

Basically in the first one the pilot is simply stating his current position, as part of his message.

The second items is not stating his position, but instead giving a 'position report' which has a very specific format.

The first is a piece of info (current position), the second is a particular type of report (a position report).

I hope that helps!

dp

[PompeyPaul]

I am confused. Because the response to "pass your message" includes a "position report". Which I'm guess is why the "postion report" follows directly after the "pass your message" response in CAP413 ?

[Blinkz]

The best bet is just to accept that the two statements are totally separate.

Yes the pass your message includes a position report, for the obvious reasons, it includes more information as it is the first contact with the controller.

Once this has been done the subsequent position reports can be extremely brief, to save air-time.

[windriver]

pompeypaul says I am confused. Because the response to "pass your message" includes a "position report".

I don`t think it does.. it just requires you to state your position. eg overhead x or 2 miles S of Y.

dublinpilot sums it up quite nicely
The first is a piece of info (current position), the second is a particular type of report (a position report).

I accept pompeypauls view that this could be interpreted the other way, but don`t believe the full position report is required either in letter or spirit.

G-CD even has a "Roger, Wilco" moment en route to Wells.

In my view CAP413 is an imperfect but rapidly improving manual and is regularly revised nowadays. Users are invited to contact the editor with questions and comments.

There is almost a case for a CAP413-VFR and CAP413-IFR as this would be much more digestible..

[Brooklands]

PP,

I am confused. Because the response to "pass your message" includes a "position report"

No - the pass your message response asks for your "Present Position" ie where you are now, so there's no need to include the time. Its not a full "Position report". If the controller wants further information then he'll ask for it.

Brooklands

[BackPacker]

PP, what you're confused about is the two types of position reports.

The first type, as part of the "pass your message" message is where you are *at the time you're transmitting*. Eg. 15 miles south of whatever. No need to specify time (yet) but other details are important (e.g. route). If you happened to be put on "standby" when 15 miles south, but only told to pass your message a minute later, you simply report "13 miles south of whatever" instead. You are correct in the sense that, if required, you can put in a next point and an ETA for that point. Eg. when requesting a MATZ transition, it would help if you give the VRP where you'll be entering, and an ETA for that VRP.

The second type is a position report which is prompted by an earlier "report position at xxx". In this case the controller wants to know exactly when you were above that reporting point, and your eta to the next reporting point, for traffic sequencing purposes or as part of its "alerting service" role. But if you happen to be overhead xxx but someone is blocking the frequency, you still need to report when you were overhead. So it includes the time.

BTW I don't know if it's legal, but if the frequency is empty when I'm overhead the position report point, I just report my position "G-CD overhead Ockham expect Dettling 47". I was also once asked to give my ETA for the waypoint after the next. First time I ever told ATC to standby.

Oh, and does CAP413 describe the situation where ATC passes your message to you instead of the other way around? Here's what happened yesterday: I was practicing steep turns, stalls etc in the Rotterdam ATZ (class E) at 3000 feet. In contact with Rotterdam Approach, on a discrete squawk. When I was finished, the following happened:
"Approach, PXX finished playing, returning to Rotterdam via Hotel."
"PXX roger report passing 2000"
"Wilco 2000 PXX"

"PXX passing 2000"
"Roger contact tower 118.2"
"118.2 PXX"

"Rotterdam Tower, PH-XXX" (Just making contact and mentally preparing to pass my message...)
"PXX, Rotterdam Tower. Cleared Hotel arrival 1500 feet report Whiskey. Weather is T, QNH 1008"
...Stunned silence for a few seconds... That's supposed to be *my* line, isn't it?
"Hotel arrival 1500 feet, wilco Whiskey. Information T received, QHN 1008, PXX"

Gotta love these guys and girls...

[wsmempson]

What they want to hear is "who are you, where are you from, where are you going, where are you now (position, height etc) waddah you want?":}

[Ace Rimmer]

And yet nowhere in CAP413 can you find bye-bye (BUH-bye)...

as in "contact departure 123.45 bye bye"

still hear it (and say it) all the time though

[Knight Paladin]

BackPacker - what exactly are you surprised by? Just a fairly standard joining clearance at a proper towered airfield who already have your details. Or are you too familiar with UK uncontrolled airfields or freecalling people en route for LARS/similar?

HenryH - love your generic use of "she" for ATC! ;)

Back to the original point - as has already been said, passing your position on an initial call is not a "position report" per se; the latter refers to a procedure more common in IFR flight with mandatory reporting points or reports as requested by ATC.

And please, everyone, keep those initial calls as short as possible (while still including information that is ACTUALLY NECESSARY), and avoid cluttering up a frequency for ages telling everyone what you had for breakfast. If Air Tragic have a burning desire to know they'll ask you. Keep it short, clear, and professional!

[Confabulous]

I thought it was only to be used in an emergency such as engine failure etc?

Wait, I was thinking of 'mess your passage' :}

[neilia]

Amazingly enough, controllers still understand the words you're saying should they not happen to be perfect, formulaic CAP413.

As said already, two key points - they want to know who you are, where you are, where you're going and what you want. And if they want to know something you haven't told them, they'll ask for it. It's just another human being on the other end of the line!

[Sir George Cayley]

So, what if a MATS voice says "Report passing Bigtown"?

Upon passing said position, should our hero say "G-IT passing Bigtown"

Or launch into an Airep? *G-IT passing Bigtown in a gayley coloured Cessna at an altitude of 2495 feet QNH 1009 time 23 estimating Smallville 30 mins"

Sir George Cayley

[IO540]

Can a real ATCO confirm whether (VFR FIS context) ATC really want to know the ETA to some WP?

I know that if you call up London Info and sound anything vaguely resembling a training flight, they will ask for the ETA to each WP, but I would assume they do that because the UK PPL training business gets every student to call up London Info.

I reckon that if you are flying from say CPT to MID i.e. past Farnborough on a nice Sunday, the last thing they want to know about is your ETA to some village. Do they really keep track of everybody with an FIS?

Especially if a pilot laboriously reads off half the local village names.

I fly through there often and all I do is tell them my dep, dest, type, the immediately relevant part of my route (always using VOR waypoints), altitude, 7000, VFR (or IFR if in cloud) and they happily leave me alone, giving me RIS or, if really busy, FIS.

[Chilli Monster]

Can a real ATCO confirm whether (VFR FIS context) ATC really want to know the ETA to some WP?

NO

Not interested in ETA's, not interested in headings.

Backpacker - if we know who you are, and we know what you want, then we're going to save R/T time by giving you that without the "pass your message" way of doing it. It's called being concise and pro-active.

Why do you think ATC is a game where you often think a few moves ahead ;)

[J.A.F.O.]

PP

Don't get why you're confused, you gave the distinction yourself:

When instructed by the ATS Unit to 'pass your message', the reply should contain the following information, Whenever possible in the order specified:
A) Aircraft call sign \ type
B) Departure point & destination
C) Present position
D) Level
E) Additional details / Intention

and

Position reports shall contain the following elements of information:
A) Aircraft identification
B) Position
C) Time
D) Level
E) Next position and ETA

See?

[Mikehotel152]

As a PPL'er who is yet to pass my skill test, I have a thought or two on this. :zzz: Stay awake at the back please! :p

When I contact a Radar ATC or Information service I give them the information that PompeyPaul first mentions. I also give them an estimate to my next waypoint relevant to them!

For example if I'm heading southeast through Southend RADAR's coverage, when I first 'pass my message' on joining the frequency I will give my estimate for overhead the Thames southbound because that's the normal point at which they ask us to report before changing frequency to Rochester INFORMATION. :O

In my humble opinion, the second example PompeyPaul gives is more relevant to those who have filed flightplans. In those situations there is no need to give as much information because that information is on the flightplan. The ATC is interested in whether they are where they should be and 'on-time', hence the need to give a more precise 'time'.

The pilot who arrives unexpectedly on a frequency without a Flightplan will initially have to fill in the ATC's gaps of knowledge by giving the full flight information, but when he reports subsequent positions he'll be be able to give the same brief information as the chap with the flightplan.

Perhaps I'm wrong with my interpretation, but it seems to make sense.:bored:

[Chilli Monster]

I also give them an estimate to my next waypoint relevant to them!

Not interested - still don't need it.

[Chilli Monster]

Not that far from the truth actually ;)

[gasax]

Sounds very much like the way the French deal with VFR traffic in their TMAs.

"Hello G-jdsf blah, blah blah". Response " G-jdsf Route x, y, z, call when clear of the TMA".

Of course it'll never happen here!

[IO540]

As a more general comment on the situation, it seems to me that the whole business of "flight information" (FIS) is a strange concept, which becomes largely unworkable when there is a significant amount of traffic.

I believe the concept of "FIS" dates back to the beginning of ICAO in the 1940s. Aircraft should be able to receive "flight information" in a prescribed manner - this makes sense.

When you fly across say Greece, you are probably one of about 3 VFR planes in the whole of Greek airspace at that moment. So an FIS makes sense, and sure enough they will keep on top of you. They will want you on the VOR-VOR airways (e.g. A14) and they will ask for your ETA to the next WP. There's not a lot of random non-radio bimbling in this place.

But in the UK, on any nice day, there are hundreds of planes in the air. An FIS is meaningless. They are prevented from passing avoidance suggestions (though they sometimes do). The UK FIS controllers - unusually for Europe, I think - don't usually have radar screens; London Info is AFAIK a man sitting at a desk, presumably with the little bits of paper in front of him.

And if they have radar they evidently aren't allowed to refer to it for the purposes of the service provision - e.g. I can fly in the Solent area and I am sure the man has a radar (because if I asked for an RIS he would use it) but he still asks me for position reports. It would surely be easier for him to give me a squawk and then everybody has less work to do :ugh:

So FIS is of minimal value - except for training PPL students to use the radio.

I know for a fact that most experienced pilots don't use FIS; and if everybody called up London Info the service would collapse immediately so I am sure they are quietly thankful.

FIS and RIS should be merged into one service. In France, FIS is all you can get under VFR and they pass you traffic if it gets close enough. They can do this quite usefully because there is so little traffic over there.

I would suspect they don't want to do that in the UK because, in heavy traffic, the FISO would find it hard to offer a service to some and not others, and nobody wants to pay for more desks.

Maybe I am missing something here, but I don't see the point in passing the full prescribed inside leg measurement to the FISO, just so he can write it on a piece of paper. Search/Rescue purposes aside, it doesn't seem to benefit anybody.

[gasax]

I think I whole heartedly agree!

Up here Scottish can usually be talked to but the only real use is D&D.

Down South I never use London as there seems no point - how can a 'controller' do anything useful without a radar set and a couple of hundred folk to talk to? Fine for information on something specific perhaps (if you could ever get a shout in) but for anything to do with traffic completely pointless.

[Whirlybird]

Maybe I am missing something here, but I don't see the point in passing the full prescribed inside leg measurement to the FISO, just so he can write it on a piece of paper.

I wholeheartedly agree! These days my calls go something like this, after "Pass your message":

G-XXXX is a ----, from ---- to ----, presently at/abeam/5 miles North of ----, request FIS.

If they want any more, they can ask. They almost never do!

The trouble is, as an instructor I'm supposed to teach all this stuff to my students. What do I tell them...do it this way for the test and my way afterwards, or what?

[gasax]

It's all part of our great aviation heritage - "F for freddy makes angles 35 20 enemy aircraft".

Teach the official version - the vast majority of PPLs lapse within 2 to 3 years so it does n't really matter!

[PompeyPaul]

PP

Don't get why you're confused, you gave the distinction yourself:


Quote:
When instructed by the ATS Unit to 'pass your message', the reply should contain the following information, Whenever possible in the order specified:
A) Aircraft call sign \ type
B) Departure point & destination
C) Present position
D) Level
E) Additional details / Intention
and


Quote:
Position reports shall contain the following elements of information:
A) Aircraft identification
B) Position
C) Time
D) Level
E) Next position and ETA
See?

It's not exactly crystal clear given that it is asking for "Present Position", i.e. not "Previous Position" or "Position in 5 mins", but "Presen PositioN" which it then defines how to make a "Position Report" in the next paragraph. Hence it is still confusing to the beginner....

[pulse1]

I mostly agree with everything said here but would add that, in my experience:

1. A Military LARS will expect and ask for POB.

2. London Info will often ask for a waypoint ETA, or at least they usually do for me on the very rare occasions I use them.

[IO540]

The trouble is, as an instructor I'm supposed to teach all this stuff to my students. What do I tell them...do it this way for the test and my way afterwards

Yes, do exactly that. The PPL as a whole is so full of cr*p (e.g. in the ground school) that if you were to pretend it's really necessary nobody with any intelligence will take you seriously. Don't get me started on the circular slide rule :)

Teach the official version - the vast majority of PPLs lapse within 2 to 3 years so it does n't really matter!

Actually, the vast majority of PPLs chuck in flying for good within 2-3 years. Only a few remain.

As to what the small remainder "lapse" to, is a good question. Every time I fly I hear dreadful incompetence on the radio. Yet all these people have to go up with an instructor every 2 years. What the **** does this "instructor" do with them??? This is after making all possible allowance for the cr*p radio kit which so many spamcans have.

The best one was the other day, when a pilot, with an otherwise good radio technique, kept using "over" at the end of each transmission. How is this possible? How many decades old could that be? That's done on shortwave (HF) but, in the GA context, only ferry pilots should be exposed to that.

[Knight Paladin]

PP and MH152 - You still don't get it, do you!!! A "position report" is an IFR concept, not relevant at all to the flying you're doing - intended for use at set reporting routes on airways and - arguably more importantly - advisory routes. I'm not sure on this, but I believe CAP413 is intended as a reference document, not a training manual, and to someone who actually has a vague idea about the world outside GA it is perfectly clear.

PP - stop trying to second guess ATC and clogging up the airwaves with the sound of your voice - if they're really interested they'll ask you, but the chance of them being so interested is remarkably low. So shut your cakehole and leave the frequency available for anyone with a mayday or a pan to be able to use without waiting half an hour! Sorry to rant, but I've been inconvenienced on multiple occasions and in one case arguably endangered by people passing just the kind of guff you mention.

Off to take some blood pressure pills and lie down for a minute....

[Fly Stimulator]

PP,

If you enjoy endless discussions of the semantics of vast volumes of regulations then flying, flying clubs and flying bulletin boards will unfortunately provide limitless scope for that.

If you're one of those eccentrics who just want to get into the air and go to interesting places then use Airbus38's excellent script above and don't get too hung up on the minutiae of CAP 413. Everyone else on the frequency will be most grateful!

[PompeyPaul]

PP,

If you enjoy endless discussions of the semantics of vast volumes of regulations then flying, flying clubs and flying bulletin boards will unfortunately provide limitless scope for that.

If you're one of those eccentrics who just want to get into the air and go to interesting places then use Airbus38's excellent script above and don't get too hung up on the minutiae of CAP 413. Everyone else on the frequency will be most grateful!

I'm just someone trying to get through the radio practical exam......

[Fly Stimulator]

In that case CAP413 will get you better marks, but please return to CAP Airbus38 afterwards! :)

[Knight Paladin]

PP: A trained monkey could pass the CAA exams, don't make it out to be hard!

[high-hopes]

I'm not really used to giving ETA's to the FIS controller.

If he's radar, he knows where I am and when I'll get there better than I do.
If he's information only he couldn't care less ! He just needs a rough idea of where I am going and let me know of any traffic.

Happened to me quite a few times that I am receiving FIS from a radar unit just outside their zone and someone else is flying in the same area but they're talking to a FISO. Saw them zooming past 500ft below me, they probably were on a FIS "No known traffic to affect you" :)
Obviously nobody's fault, in class G.

[J.A.F.O.]

PP

Okay, I'll try to make it simple - THEY'RE NOT LINKED.

Present Position

Position Report

See, they're different, don't try to link them, don't try to think about it, just do what it says.

Windsor Great Park - Brown Windsor Soup - Barbara Windsor - Windsor Davies

All share the word Windsor, none are the same thing, see?

I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just trying to point out that you're thinking about it too much and until Airbus38 rules the world we'll just have to put up with what the book says.

[Crash one]

I was taught in the military (Navy ground based crash waggons, mobile units etc) some 40yrs ago at the age of ~18-20.
I started PPL last July at the age of 67 & I still cannot get the "over" bit out of my thick skull. Niether can my wife who was in air traffic at the same time. One of our ATC persons tells me they just think we are all ex Lancaster pilots! I have passed the FRTOL, (with the ocasional "over" & ommiting to report the position of the dingy in distress (pan call) until asked). I was also "taught" that there are real people on the other end trying to help, if they need to know something they will ask.
I recently, during nav ex, called Scottish information, G-xxx will divert from Auchterarder to Kelty, est Kelty mins xx". Gxxxx report Kelty. "Report Kelty Gxxxx". 30seconds later I called "Oh by the way Scottish, Gxxxx is climbing to 3500ft for terrain clearance, over". Gxxxx, roger & thank you for that!
Perhaps not perfect procedure but he didn't fire a microwave beam into my headset.