Who can afford it? [Archive]

Dr Jekyll

20th May 2007, 15:23

We all get irritated by the general assumption that all private pilots are millionaires, but given the current price of fuel I suspect the average man in the street is less likely to frequent their local flying club than we like to think.
It isn't so much a case of being able to afford the occasional hour, as being able to enjoy it without thinking of what else the money could have bought.

Ignoring those who use aircraft for business, heading for an aviation career, or who really are rich by anyones standards, just how well off is the average Cessna hirer or Cherokee group member?

Do we really get many people on less than £30k/year? Or even £40k which is roughly 90% of the population. I'm beginning to think the average income for PPL holders must be approaching £100k/year.

Rod1

20th May 2007, 16:15

The PFA have a fair number of retired people who manage to fly a lot. Not stupid enough to hire Cessna types from flying clubs to do it though.

Rod1

IO540

20th May 2007, 16:40

Obviously the answer must depend on

a) disposable income, and

b) what else the pilot has to do in his/her life

Now, a) is the difference between income and "hard" outgoings and varies enormously. I know of men on £100k who haven't got anything spare, after sending 3 kids to private school, paying for the wife's credit card bills, paying the mortgage, paying the HP on the Mitsubishi Shogun which is necessary for the school run to any respectable private school.

If you are on £20k net and live with your mum, you will have loads of spare dosh; probably about £15k.

So knowing what the average PPL salary is wouldn't mean anything.

Average UK male is on about £22k gross and if living alone that isn't going to leave much for hobbies. The trick is to shack up with somebody else who is also working, avoid accumulating the usual UK symbols of copious consumption, and not have kids :)

Oh nearly forgot... avoid divorce!

Regarding b), that is the reason for why the UK GA scene is mostly a bunch of anoraks. Most people with some spare dosh tend to use it to enhance their social life first, and the younger they are the more deliberately they go about doing this. After they have fixed up their social life, found a partner etc, do they pursue other hobbies like flying.

The cost of flying also varies enormously. If you confine yourself to a local bimble on a sunny day, once a month, that's going to cost a lot less than IFR currency and 100-200hrs/year.

Pilot DAR

20th May 2007, 16:42

I shall soften my words, as I am aware that the price of things in the UK is somewhat higher than the price of the same things in North America. I do not know why, but I am appreciative that I don't have to pay the UK cost for things! People here are outraged this week at autogas prices of (=50P) per litre...

That said, I think that it is the responsibility of each of us to live within our means. If we want to spend more we have to earn more.

When I learned to fly, it was a little expensive for me at $18 per hour for a C150 (wet) That's about 7 pounds 50. I really had to struggle to pay the $55 for the Cessna Cardinal RG. Okay, it was a while ago. That cost is now five times higher. I guess that I could afford it still, as I am able to afford to learn to fly a helicopter right now...

My plane was completely paid for 19 years ago, and I can afford to fly it several times a week. It's modest, as it's 'only' (many other people's term, not mine) a Cessna 150M, but it's in great shape with good paint, radios, interior, and a new engine. When I burn autogas in it (95% of the time), I actually get all of the road taxes (included in the price of the gas) back! - I'm not complaining about that! When I go to sell my plane one day, it will be worth 4 -5 times what I paid for it, after I put 2000+ hours on it. Great investment, I wish I'd bought a dozen!

I could own my buddy's Cessna 182RG, or the Cessna T206 I test flew yesterday, and I'd be broke! I could not afford the maintenance or the gas. I could have accepted a 1/3 share in a Cessna 310 instead of buying my 150 all those years ago, but I would have been broke right away!

So, I don't mean to sound too positive here, I know that it can be annoying to have sunshine poured onto a rainy day parade, but I can afford it, and I sure appreciate how lucky I am that I can. Not only that, how lucky I am to live in a nation where personal flight and aircraft ownership is even permitted. I could be a lot worse off!

It sounds like you are able to afford to get in the air, that's great! Me too! Lucky us... Neither of us have to worry about the cost of insurance for our private BAE146, or the cost of replacement rotor blades for our personal Sikorsky 76. How lucky are we!

Sorry to tell you, but I'm the guy who can afford it!

Cheers, Pilot DAR

Dr Jekyll

20th May 2007, 16:53

Is private flying generally seen in the US as an activity for the affluent, just as it is here?

gcolyer

20th May 2007, 16:54

Well I am not a rich man after my divorce!! I earn about £35k

I guess I average about 6 hours a month, however I do have periods where I fly alot. For instance in the last 15 days I have flown 12.5 hours. Next week I will fly about 30 hours, then I will be back to bread and water until christmas.

It is as IO540 says all down to disposable income. My 12.5 hours flying in the last 15 days has cost me the following:

Aircraft £750.00
Fuel: £320.00
Landing Fees: £97.00
Parking: £102.00

TOTAL: £1269.00

Thats alot of money in my book. Now if I used a club plane I would only have had to pay £1012.50, but my club is a little bit anal about long trips (esepcially overseas) and overnights.

So another part of the equation is the quality of flying. If you can only afford the odd hour here and there to stay current and bimble about your local airfield then what is the point.

Persoanly I don't really have any commitments now.

Rented House
Company car
No credit cards
No loans
No debt

My biggest expense is holidays, usualy New york or florida (where I end up doing a load of flying)

shortstripper

20th May 2007, 16:59

Well you make the flying to fit your pocket.
When I learnt I was earning around £10K but was single and it was the late 80's, IIRC it cost me around £60/hr to fly a CFG Tigermoth. Now I earn around £27K, and my wife is a housewife. To be fair I get a free farmhouse, so I guess that takes it to around £34K in real terms, + as a farm manager I have set up my own strip. However, I have 5 kids, so money is not exactly "disposable". The way I afford to fly is by flying a cheap single seater that costs me around £18/hr all in. Others go for microlights, gliding or whatever. If I had the money I'd have a Hurricane, but I don't so I make do and enjoy what I can fly ... and BOY DO I ENJOY IT!!! :D
SS

gcolyer

20th May 2007, 17:18

Certianly owning your own strip makes things alot cheaper (in the UK or non FAA land).

On the Isle of Man I use Andreas which is owned by a friend of mine, so It doesnt cost me a bean. At Filton if I fly the club plane then I don't pay landing or parking fee's. All this month I have borrrowed my mates plane which has cost a fortune in landing fees and parking fees.

To keep fuel costs down I have an Air BP account so I get 100LL for about £1.07 per litre. It is definatley worth getting fuel accounts as you do pay slightly less and you can pay monthly (as in settle the account every month).

Whirlybird

20th May 2007, 17:36

It isn't so much a case of being able to afford the occasional hour, as being able to enjoy it without thinking of what else the money could have bought.

Ah, but you see that's the difference between aviation addicts and normal people. We don't think like that.

For me, there's Real Life, and then there's Aviation (and also long haul holidays and cats, where I think the same way, but never mind about that).

For my chosen addiction, if I have the money, within reason (ie without starving or serious debt), then it's not too expensive. I don't think about what else I could spend it on...what else could there be? Is there anything else? How on earth could I prefer anything else to flying?

But Real Life, that's different. I don't earn all that much, so I'm very frugal. I rarely change my car, don't eat out much, buy clothes in markets or secondhand shops. I agonise over whether to take the M6 Toll road if going south, not because it's a rip-off, which it is, but because 4 quid is a lot of money! I'm ecstatic if I can save money by buying something on Ebay.

In Real Life, if something is a tenner, it's expensive. In aviation, if it's only 150 quid, it's cheap.

I know quite a lot of other people who operate this way. If we didn't, we couldn't possibly justify our flying. It's nsane by normal standards, I know, but then, did any of us ever claim to be normal?

gcolyer

20th May 2007, 17:59

I know what you mean Whirly. I think exactly the same. My cats are my only commitment and I cant let them go with out. Other than that my money goes on Flying and holidays.

tangovictor

20th May 2007, 19:20

I would imagine, a majority of "new" pilots are early retiree's, probably always wanted to learn, but never got round to it, or it wasn't financially possible,
thats where I fit in, having done a lot of maths, I decided the nppl m route, the most obvious, apart from the nppl being cheaper to gain, a fixed wing microlight, is a whole lot cheaper to buy, run & maintain, with very little going against it, those wishing to fly IMC or eventually Commercial, would probably be younger
TV

gcolyer

20th May 2007, 19:37

Talking of age. When was I was learning out in Florida, there were a few teenagers and a cou[le of people in thier early 20's who's parents pay for their flying. And they were not very appreciative people.

microlight AV8R

20th May 2007, 20:23

It's really quite simple... Cut the suit according to the cloth.
I just wanted to be able to fly VFR and do some touring within the Uk, using grass strips. So, I got myself an NPPL(M) last year. Then I thought through my options and ended up buying a sweet little Rans S6 which costs in terms of both acquistion and running costs no more than a tidy car. Managed to persuade the good woman to come up with me for an hour today and our fuel cost was about £15.
If I have the time and the weather is ok, I fly.
PFA permit operation is certainly the route to affordable flying.

gcolyer

20th May 2007, 20:27

The other option is fly minimum hours in the UK and go to the US to do the bulk of your flying, Actualy most countries other than England are cheaper than England.

Gertrude the Wombat

20th May 2007, 20:48

A lot of people get the PPL and then give up. (For any of the reasons discussed here regularly.)

It costs around £6k to get a PPL. That's hardly a lot to add to a typical modern mortgage. So, anyone who can comfortably buy a house can at least get the licence - yes I know that rules a lot of people out, but it also rules a lot of people in.

ericferret

20th May 2007, 22:51

A 20 a day cigarette habit costs about £1900 that will buy you a fair bit of flying time.

No kids, thats a small fortune.

Drive an N reg car with 100,000 miles on the clock instead of something new.

Group ownership
Operating from a strip
PFA aircraft

A combination of the above will get you a fair few hours a year!!!!!!!.

IO540

20th May 2007, 23:36

Gertrude is right. There is a lot of double standards in this; not necessarily intentional or conscious.

The fag/booze habit of many an average punter would pay for an awful lot of flying, yet they somehow manage to fund this hobby (not the flying) from casual work supplemented by DSS payments.

And stand next to the M25/etc and count the 6-digit priced cars per hour. Most are not company cars; well certainly not company issued cars. Most have lost best part of 5 digits in value between the day they were bought and the day you see them. Even 1% of this money coming into GA would transform it.

The biggest problem with GA isn't the cost; the biggest problem is the reason (whatever it is) why most of the copious money that is sloshing around our society is bypassing it. If this was brought in, there would be a lot more going on, and the resulting economies of scale etc would enable a lot more "poorer" people to participate, by taking advantage of the inevitable cross subsidy. As it is, most GA airfields are funded mostly by people who are scraping out the bottom of the barrel and that is always going to be hard.

The hard reality is that flying has never been cheap and never will be cheap. It's probably half the price in the USA but that isn't a whole lot of help if you haven't got any money. The real problem is the lack of social scene, lack of utility, generally poor organisation, etc.

One can enjoy cheaper flying by going for the less regulated side i.e. the "sports" category machines. But they still cost a lot.

Captain Smithy

21st May 2007, 08:22

Would have to agree with the points made on this thread, especially IO's point about the booze/cancer stick costs.

I am convinced that not having a girlfriend is the reason I am able to fly... there are advantages in being single after all:}

gcolyer

21st May 2007, 08:37

Smithy I i agree with the girlfriend statement. Before I got divorced I could never afford to fly. After the divorce it was amazing how much more money I had available.

A friend of mine had been flying for about a year as a single man, he gets himself a girlfriend and now he barley flys because he has no money.

I am sure it is probably the same for you female pilots.

IO540

21st May 2007, 08:59

WRT the last 2 posts above, why the hell do these men pick such useless girlfriends?

In this society, nobody is forced to shack up with a particular woman, and a sh*g is never worth long term unhappiness or hassle. Yet, men make this kind of stupid mistake over and over again, usually even marrying the woman :ugh:

I think by the time they reach 40 they have learnt this, which is no doubt why the internet dating sites are packed with 40+ women - the sucker men get much scarcer. But it seems to me that nothing short of every mate of a man having been fleeced and.or being under some woman's thumb and getting a bollocking for staying out past 2230 is enough to drive it into a man's head that he needs to be a bit more fussy.

I fly with my girlfriend and we have wonderful flying holidays together. She has her own job and doesn't "live off me" and doesn't resent my hobbies.

If I had learnt to fly while I was still married, it would have been difficult because she would have resented my freedom (as many women do if they fall into the "housewife" role) and a comparable amount of money would have been spent on something for her to do, which would have doubled the cost.

So I can see that commencing flying within a marriage can be difficult. But to end up with a woman and then moan one can't fly is just not on ;)

gcolyer

21st May 2007, 09:03

IO540 I think you are a lucky man.

How many of us would like a pilot for a partner??? how easy would that that make it.

IO540

21st May 2007, 09:39

I am indeed lucky but she's not a pilot; she is just OK with flying, both herself as a passenger (so long as I stay out of turbulence, which makes flight planning quite tricky sometimes) and with me going off to fly somewhere without her. She's a university postgrad lecturer/researcher.

All I am getting at is that it is possible to have a relationship with a woman without her screwing you down. I could get quite cynical about marriage / divorce etc etc but at the same time I believe a man does have control of his destiny of the relationship front, and he should exercise that option.

slim_slag

21st May 2007, 09:42

Even if your partner pays half it is still more expensive as you tend to do more things e.g go out to dinner, theatre, weekends away. Johnny-no-mates who sits at home with a six pack of stella and an ASDA pizza doesn't have similar expenses.

IO540

21st May 2007, 10:07

OK, let me share with you a secret on how to die very rich:

1. Work 7 days a week
2. Have no friends (with 1. you won't anyway)
3. Have no relationships (as above)
4. Don't sh*g, except with 2 cond0ms and in the back of a car with false number plates
5. Don't go out to do anything that costs money
6. Have no hobbies that cost money
7. Live with your mum (which will generally take care of 3 above)
8. Invest all savings in FTSE-100 trackers

Following the above, I can practically guarantee you will die with a 7 figure bank balance.

Easy, really.

It's a shame life is such a compromise.

S-Works

21st May 2007, 10:12

Wow, this is all getting really deep!!

I just go flying. If the wife wants to come she does, she does not believe in the anorak sunday afternoon flying that represenst the bulk of GA. As long as there is a worthwhile destination with a hotel and shoe shops!!

Chilli Monster

21st May 2007, 10:12

Do what I did - meet other half at Flying Club. If she don't fly - she ain't worth knowing ;)

(Our circumstances - I'm working, slightly above average salary, she's retired due medical reasons, on a pension. Two cars, no mortgage, about to go crazy and possibly buy a high performance tourer - no pockets in a shroud after all!)

172driver

21st May 2007, 10:46

Guess I can join the Lucky Few here. Girlfriend quite enjoys flying, as long as there's somewhere to go. No bimbling or anoraks munching soggy sarnies on a Sunday afternoon for the missus. Fine by me, I don't like this scene either. Nice hotel, restaurant and shoe shop at destination a must, clothes shops availability definitely a plus. Doesn't like flights over about 2 1/2 hours and not very fond of turbulence (that said, she's been with me on one or two of my wildest rides and coped admirably). Just about to get married after decades-long relationship and honeymoon will be - a flying holiday :ok:

gcolyer

21st May 2007, 11:01

172...

You just explained well one of the challenges when it comes to relationships and flying.

Nice hotel, restaurant and shoe shop at destination a must, clothes shops availability definitely a plus

She wants rewarding for "quiet enjoying flying". So you are talking another good £100 on top of the flight costs.

S-Works

21st May 2007, 11:11

So the answer is simple stay as bitter and twisted divorcee or singleton and enjoy your anorak sunday flying for greasy spoon breakfasts while living on the breadline to fund a hobby that is clearly out of most peoples reach...... :p

Captain Smithy

21st May 2007, 11:12

Slim_slag - "Even if your partner pays half it is still more expensive as you tend to do more things e.g go out to dinner, theatre, weekends away. Johnny-no-mates who sits at home with a six pack of stella and an ASDA pizza doesn't have similar expenses."

Very true - as seconded by IO540 - but I still like those ASDA pizzas :} Sorry, I merely jest. Had to be said.

Smithy

gcolyer

21st May 2007, 11:17

Come on Bose!!

You can be single post divorce and not be bitter (after a while):hmm:

The correct answers is:

A) If the greasy spoon run is all you can afford, but are content with it then fine.

B) If you have the funds to do whatever flying you like then fine.

The false answers are:

A) My partner enjoys flying, as long as they get wined and dinned and pressies every time i fly

B) I have no life and only interact with humans via chat rooms and ATC, but I get to fly 12 hours every two years. Oh and I love beans on toast for most of my dinners and honestly I drive a 25 year old rust bucket because I love classic cars.

S-Works

21st May 2007, 11:19

My god I am glad I don't fit into any of those classes.
Please excuse me while I go and watch the poles wash my Porsche.
:p:}

172driver

21st May 2007, 11:24

well, gcolyer, it's more complex than that. She really does enjoy it, but within reason (if that's a word that can be employed in this context ;) ) and wants her fun too. Btw, pays - mostly - for her own shoes. Good girl :ok:

gcolyer

21st May 2007, 11:31

Bose-x you mean there's another category?:eek:

Dark Star

21st May 2007, 11:38

How about some handy tips on saving money to go flying ?

Here is one to get started:-

Dont buy toilet rolls, collect your used tissues and once dried a bit use them instead. They can be supplemented by junk mail old newspaper etc and if you really want proper tissue use the public toilets.

So if you save one £5 pack of Andrex a week thats £260 a year, enough for 2 hours flying !! :)

gcolyer

21st May 2007, 11:57

So if you save one £5 pack of Andrex a week thats £260 a year, enough for 2 hours flying !! :)

How about eat more healthy food with nutritional value, that way you wont need to spend £5 a week on Andrex. That's a lot of Andrex for a week.

ericferret

21st May 2007, 12:50

My girlfriend flies and owns her own aircraft. She has all the problems of funding the flying that the men have.

Never did understand why she picked up with anyone as ugly as me though.
I'm sure that my type rated engineers licence has absolutely nothing to do with it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rod1

21st May 2007, 12:56

Happily married with 2 kids. Wife is a “RAF brat” and has flown Gliders and weight shift micros in the past. All like flying, though eldest does tend to be airsick on occasion. I get lots of support for building and flying. I will admit that having ½ the house dedicated to aircraft construction would have been a problem if it had gone on much longer!

Rod1

gcolyer

21st May 2007, 13:03

ericferret you are more lucky than IO540. Where did you find such a woman???

ericferret

21st May 2007, 19:59

On the way back from the pub. Fell into a gutter and she picked me up so to speak.

Managed to get her pregnant and now I am doomed to maintain her aircraft until I have atoned for my sins.
(apologies to the Flying Dutchman).

1d2d3d4d

24th May 2007, 20:00

I've just seen an appeal on TV for the famine in Chad. I cannot now afford to fly this month!

Chris

AfricanEagle

25th May 2007, 09:53

My girlfriend is a pilot. Weekends are spent around aeroplanes, airfields, flying clubs. Lots of flying together. Biggest issue is fighting for who is to be PIC.

But I can't complain, she wants to buy us our own aeroplane :)

FiddlerMax

25th May 2007, 16:38

Flying is more expensive than any other hobby I know. Averaged over ten years you'll be lucky to get minimal, license renewal hours, for less than 1700 a year. And that won't exactly be a wondrous experience - you'll be spending a lot of that just doing circuits and PFLs with sweaty palms trying to keep current.
The question is, what aspects of flying interest the average punter with some spare cash? I know most of the people on here are addicted to it, spending every CAVOK day God sends down at the airfield tinkering with their spam can or going on bimbles. But most people fit their hobbies around their lives, not the other way round.
Let's say we'd like to decide on a Friday evening to go away for an overnight trip to Cornwall, the Dales, northern France, wherever, without the hassles of motorways or airport security. Get up the next day, drive to the airfield with one or two companions, and do it. Back on Sunday evening (weather permitting). Sounds great, doesn't it? When I explain that to non-flyers, they get excited. If that were a realistic goal on sensible money, our airfields would be awash with people like me (late 20's/early 30's, some spare cash, penchant for travel etc.) So where are they? Well, the sad answer is it's no longer a realistic goal (if it ever was). That level of commitment means having a 1/10 share in a reasonable 4-seater, and the confidence to use it that comes from 30+ hours VFR per year. Add that to the amortized cost of the PPL, we're talking more like 5-7 grand a year. And you'll spend a lot of your time disappointing your companions (and yourself) because at short notice you discover/decide it's not safe to depart.
And you wonder where we all are? Sport car racing, yacht sailing, horse riding, a fondness for Michelin-starred restaurants, expensive cameras or games consoles, weekend city breaks, a fortnight per year in Whistler or Klosters in waist-deep powder [add your own 'expensive' hobby that feckless youngsters might indulge in here]. Whatever it is, it's probably MUCH cheaper than 6 grand a year. Add the bizarre, 1950's tea-and-biscuits-in-the-prefab atmosphere and, sadly, you have your answer.
:-(

Gertrude the Wombat

25th May 2007, 16:42

Flying is more expensive than any other hobby I know.
Nah, it's lots cheaper than at least one other hobby - politics.

Just being a district councillor costs me lots more per year than flying, and for an MP (who typically takes a salary cut of tens of thousands of pounds on election) it's even worse!

Chukkablade

25th May 2007, 16:44

Max, thats one of the most accurate summations I've read on here in weeks.

Nail-Hammer-Head:ok:

Whirlybird

25th May 2007, 18:21

Well, I can't remember the exact figures now, but some years ago I compared what I spent on flying to how much a friend of mine who owned two horses spent on riding, and the horses cost more!

muffin

25th May 2007, 19:09

Both of them must have had CPL/IRs then Whirly

Humaround

25th May 2007, 22:04

It really ALL depends on the kind of flying you want to do.

Last year I flew 70 hours, visited lots of interesting places, had some nice weekends away, all for about £3000. That's 70 hours at £35ph, plus £600 for standing charges. (meals and accommodation away not included).

My 1/4 share of the aircraft cost £3450.

I think that's all pretty reasonable, and comparable with many other hobbies.

Yes, I'm limited to daylight VFR, and the aircraft is old and lives at a (delightful, if sometimes a bit muddy) farmstrip. It's all fine by me.

BeechNut

26th May 2007, 01:48

Well I don't consider myself rich; I got back into flying after a break of several years, after our mortgage was paid off; we worked like crazy and got it paid off when we were very young (35 years old to be precise) so I was still young enough to enjoy the hobby. I own 100% of my own aircraft, a very high time 1979 Beech Sundowner (aerobatic by the way), but it was in great shape, picked up at a government-run flying school (your tax dollars at work). It replaced a Cherokee 140 as I wanted more payload. Now that my kids are older and starting to leave the nest, I am looking at trading down to a two-seater like a C-150. I did own a Skipper alongside the Sundowner briefly, with the intent of selling the Sundowner, but I got a deal I couldn't refuse on the Skipper ($5500 more than I paid for it the year before, pays for a lot of gas...).

The first trick to flying is never ever own more aircraft than you need. My top limit was engraved in concrete: no more than 180 hp, fixed gear, fixed pitch prop. All to keep maintenance down. I also have a couple of buddies that fly with me. One is a pretty handy wrench, so he does a lot of the grunt work for me (supervised by the AME), in exchange for flying hours on my machine. This keeps maintenance costs down. Now I no longer really need 180 hp and 4 seats so I am looking at either trading down, or taking on a partner.

However I have to agree, this is by far the most expensive hobby; the only saving grace is that the toy's value is stable or increases over time, but the costs likely exceed that increase. My other hobby is collecting model trains and I can assure you that's a lot cheaper!!!

I do have to ration my flying. At 40 liters per hour and $1.50 per liter, that's a lot for fuel. I usually fly with mates who are willing to chip in for fuel. The rule of thumb: you will get invited for a ride once, but if you don't chip in for fuel, you won't be invited again. I make one exception to the rule, a retired chap in his '80s who was flight engineer on Halifax bombers in the war and had to sell his plane years ago (still has his medical though!). I figure I owe him, not the other way around. He had a multi-IFR rating so he's also fun to have a long, we always play at shooting some instrument approaches (in VMC of course...I have night and VFR on top ratings only).

Anyway I figure I'm good for a few more years yet, and if I downsize to a 100-115 hp two-seater I'll be in the air for quite a few more years, God and the Mrs. willing...

IO540

26th May 2007, 06:22

I've never personally been into sailing, but anybody who thinks flying is expensive should try a bit of sailing, and not necessarily at the "gin palace" level. In fact, just popping into a boat shop and looking at the fuel flow rate of something that will get you from the UK to Jersey before you grow a beard will be quite a revelation! It may be "cheaper" diesel but it will make your eyes water to realise how many people spend £10,000 on fuel on a little powerboat jolly. Mind you, the swimsuit scene is probably a whole lot better than in GA ;)

I've said this before and got into hot water for it, but IMV the money is not the problem. Money (or lack of it) will determine whether somebody can (or can't) play in this game, but the cost of playing doesn't have much of an impact on whether (or how soon) people chuck it in.

What matters is the return you get, relative to the considerable hassle which aviation always carries with it.

IMV there are not all that many ways to maximise the return v. hassle ratio. One can aim to go places (which is why I learnt in the first place) or one can do aerobatics. There may be other effective ways but they escape me.

Certainly, anybody who thinks they will hang in there on self fly hire of some spamcan once or twice per month, to do a local bimble, is kidding themselves. He will be spending say £2000/year and all he will be getting is a bit of aerial view. After a bit, that gets boring. Yet, this is all a typical new product of the PPL training machine feels able to do - no wonder most pack it in more or less right away.

That's why I would advise anybody who enjoys flying to make a decent committment early on, and either buy their own plane or buy into a syndicate, get flying with other (experienced) pilots, and get firmly established in the process of learning how to go beyond the WW1 PPL syllabus. Do some real flying and leave the airport anorak scene behind (your partner will be rather grateful for that, too).

One also needs to work on hassle reduction and a purchase (outright or share) will help there too. You get better access to a better maintained machine.

Unless you are lucky to get a decent instructor, the PPL sausage machine will not help you. It has no business brief to turn out pilots; the #1 job is to get £8000 or whatever off everybody walking through the door. They also don't usually like people who have become experienced pilots hanging around - they might teach the new recruits "bad habits"... they also try to talk people out of committing early because they want you to keep self fly hiring their old heaps.

You have to get the basic training and the paperwork and then leave it all behind and move on.

And yes it can't be done for much less than a few k a year, if you want decent passenger carrying capability. It can be done for perhaps half that if you zoom around in an ultralight/LSA type but to me that seems a rather more lonely sort of flying.

Many people have thought about some kind of mentoring for new pilots. This is a great idea and I would very much like to do that too. I fly at least once a week and a lot of the time it's just a local flight for currency, so why not turn it into something worthwhile? However, many aircraft owners, myself included, can't do this except in the most discreat manner if there is a school at their airport; you soon get into conflict with the thick airport politics and losing one's hangarage etc (or worse) is just not worth it. You could do it only with pilots who have well and truly departed their school but most of those have already left the scene for good...

Whirlybird

26th May 2007, 07:02

One can aim to go places (which is why I learnt in the first place) or one can do aerobatics.

One can also.....

1) Get together with another PPL (or several), find a school/club that will lend you an aircraft for a few hours, and do quite a lot of UK touring, trying new airfields, going to fly-ins etc. Half the money, half the work, twice the fun, and it'll keep you going for a couple of years at least, depending how often you fly.

2) Bimble till you get bored. It takes some people a while, even years, to get bored with boring holes in the local sky - and some never do. Then, having saved a bit of money, do an IMC and night rating...and take it from there.

3) Do a taildragger conversion and learn to fly lots of different aircraft.

4) Convert to microlights - lots cheaper, and quite a good social scene...though I wasn't involved in it for long enough to know much.

5) Bore holes in sky, build up hours, get to know about parachute jumping or gliding, and then you can tow gliders or drop jumpers - free flying, legally.

6) Get in touch with your local ATC. They're often desperate for instructors. If you can give up one day a week, usually at weekends, they'll train you for free, and you'll get loads of flying - usually in motor gliders.

7) Gradually get experience, then consider doing CPL exams and FI rating. If you take your time, look on it as useful experience, and don't put yourself under pressure, it's fairly enjoyable, and spread over time not all that expensive. The you can instruct in your spare time...and get paid!!!!!!!

8) Get involved at your local club/school. Some pay a bit for things like being an A/G operator, and you save the money and use it to fly. Not quite sure how it works, as I abandoned it after a few hours, but search around, and it could keep you airborne during times when cash is a problem.

9) Keep current, learn French (or other European languages), try to manage at least one European trip, and let it be known that you're willing to do continental trips with other pilots. Lots can't speak French, which means they can't fly into small airfields. I haven't tried it, but I bet you get a few trips that way.

10) Don't believe everything that yor flying instructor, local club, friends, IO540 or anyone else tells you (including me) - look around yourself and find out what's possible. And don't ever believe that you can't do it, whatever it is, if you want to.

IO540

26th May 2007, 07:19

I don't disagree with that you say, WB, but quite a lot of the stuff you list goes under my heading of "going places".

Much of the rest requires a significant investment in time. This is fine if you have the time, and is a very admirable contribution, but most people who can fund this hobby have to work to pay for it and don't have all that much time. And those with time tend to have no money. Such is life!

gfunc

28th May 2007, 16:05

Just my little story....

Back in the day (mid 90's that it) when I was a teen, I used be a hangar rat (aka pain in the backside) and somehow managed to wangle a deal with my local flying club over at Manston that I would get 10mins of dual flying for every aeroplane I washed and 5 mins for the boss' car.

Over about 3-4 years of making a nuisance of myself I managed to wash my way to a PPL (the only time I had to shell out cash was for the test fees). I also got loads of backseat rides (I think the school wanted to get rid of me for a few hours!) including a few in a Yak-52 and L-29, which for an aviation obsessed young man was pure heaven. Just being around a busy school with so many friendly people means I learn a lot about flying from osmosis.

I still look back on those crazy days and I'm forever thankful to those folks (I could never afford to get into flying otherwise). Unfortunately life got in the way (uni etc) so I haven't flown much since, but now I'm living in the US (many people would still consider me a pain in the backside) and can afford to get back in the sky again!

I'm not sure if there's a moral to this story, but I'm in a typing mood!:cool:

Gareth.

Chukkablade

28th May 2007, 16:29

Good for you Gfunc, and thanks for taking the time to tell the tale. With all the horror stories we hear every month in aviation with folks getting ripped off, not to mention people always mouthing the phrase' Not everyone in Aviation is a crook, but all crooks are in aviation', its good to hear about the decent guys out there.

Thanks for re-enforcing my faith in human nature a little:ok:

For me, I fly whatever machine I can afford. When I was on lower pay, I did PPL(A), now I make more money, I get my kicks from (H). If the share options ever come in big time, hopefully it'll be turbine powered (H), but hey, you get the drift. If it all went to rats, I'd look at microlites and wearing a sleeping bag to go fly. I'd enjoy it to I bet.

Horses for very fun courses is all.

OVC002

28th May 2007, 16:57

All the chat about how expensive aeroplanes, boats and wives/divorces are reminds me of the old aphorism:
"If it fly's, float's or f*ck's.... it's cheaper to rent!"
My experience is supportive of this proposition.

ericferret

28th May 2007, 21:06

Whirlybird

Saw you bit on owning horses.

Some of the rules applying to cheap aviation apply to horses.
You can spend as much or as little as you want.

We had at one time no less than 6 of the afore mentioned wooden headed dinosaurs. We used to compete at National carriage driving championships.

What did it did it all cost?

Well we moved to a cheap part of the country and bought a house with some land. Therefore hangarage and fuel was free! Local farmer cut and bailed hay for minimal cost, fuel for winter operations also free!!!!!!!

Cost of vets and wormers £200 year.
Shoes for competion ponies £150 year.

Cost of competitions, entry fee and diesel for a clapped out Vauxhall Victor Estate towing a horse trailer.

We were competitive in our class (pony tandem) and all done on a shoestring.

Fun bit was pitching the tent in the pitch dark and waking up to find ourselves between the Duke of Edinburgh and Alan Bristow with their articulated lorry boxes and associated support vehicles.

If you really want expense try motor yachts. Went to look at a 206 parked on the back of one in Monaco harbour. Commented on the cost.
Told that it was nothing compared with the cost of the boat. They had just spent $250,000 on a top overhaul for it's diesels. Throw in a fair sized crew and you can burn cash faster than David Beckham can earn it.

englishal

28th May 2007, 21:17

My wife bought me the plane;)

But then again we're DINC's and I don't pay UK income tax or NI due to a nice little loophole.;)

IO540

28th May 2007, 21:45

As an ex husband of a horse-mad female I can confirm there are many similarities between planes and horses; some of them quite funny..

OVC002 - I am sure you would be very accurate if one could indeed (easily) rent something that looks like it will last the flight ;)

Rans Flyer

29th May 2007, 06:36

My Rans S6 cost the same as a car/good motorbike and ongoing it's:
£590PA to insure
£180 average PA for a permit/maintenance.
Burning 14 litres per hour of unleaded.
The most expensive bit is Hangerage in the S/East @ £900PA

Rans,
www.FlightForLife.co.uk

ericferret

29th May 2007, 09:42

The most common similarity between the horse and aviation world is the poser.

The number of aircraft that sit in hangars flying for little more than maintenance flights every year just so the owner can boast of "having his own aircraft".

The horse equivalent sits in the stables at enormous expense, never ridden yet the owner (always female) has enough tack to open an internet warehouse.

The main difference is that the horse owner actually loves her horse even if she can't ride for toffee. Whereas the aircraft owner(always male) apears to have no interest in the aircraft or flying.

Worst case I saw was a brand new Hughes 500 3 years old with 49 hours total time. Most of that being ferry time.