C172 Maximum Cross wind

[gcolyer]

This one has me perplexed as to

A) What is the aircrafts maximum cross wind limit
B) what would the insurance company do if I bent the plane in a moderate to heavy cross wind balls up

So here it is. In the POH that came with the 1967 C172 H this is what it has to say about the cross wind component.

The maximum allowable corsswind velocity is dependent upon pilot capability rather than airplane limitations. With average pilot technique, direct crosswinds of 15 MPH can be handled with safety.


So does it mean the max crosswind component is 15 MPH or does it mean the maximum is what ever i can handle until the day I crash it?

[BackPacker]

The POH means exactly that: a factory pilot has demonstrated that the aircraft can be landed with a 15-knot crosswind. They did not test any higher crosswinds, probably because they were not required to.

What happens if the crosswind is higher, you try to land anyway and you bend the aircraft? This depends on what's written in your insurance policy, and what's in there is typically copied verbatim into club rules and such. My club, for instance, mandates a maximum crosswind component of 15 knots (despite the fact that all our aircraft have a demonstrated limit of at least 17 knots). If you land with a higher crosswind and cause damage, you're the one to pay for it.

[gasax]

The topics that will not die............

Or the characters who will not search...............

[gcolyer]

Well it is not a club plane and there is no mention of limitations in the insurance other than a pointer stating not to be operated outside of the aircraft limits.

The POH clearly states the limit is on the pilot and not the aircraft. It only points out the average pilot can handle 15 MPH which is only 13kts which is a pathetic limit.

[gcolyer]

The topics that will not die............

Or the characters who will not search...............


Where would the fun in forums be if we didn't keep the same crap alive:ok:

[BackPacker]

Well, if it's not a club or rental plane, then I assume you are (part) owner, and you can call your insurance direct. See what their interpretation is. I'd be interested to know their position.

[Final 3 Greens]

So does it mean the max crosswind component is 15 MPH or does it mean the maximum is what ever i can handle until the day I crash it?

It means they aren't saying what the maximum is.

[gcolyer]

It means they aren't saying what the maximum is.

That's exactly how I read it.

[sir.pratt]

if it gets up to 40kts, is it still a cross-wind, or just a really strong headwind?

[gcolyer]

That depends if the direction of wind is different to the direction of the runway...or at least that is my way of explaining it:eek:

[gcolyer]

If you have balls like a space hopper:eek:

[falconfreak]

To land with a crosswind is at the discretion of the PIC, demonstrated in the POH is information that is used to make that decision. That is the legal responsibility. The insurance company may make their own restrictions that you will have to comply with for them to insure you. It is very unlikely that they will make resrictions lower than the POH. To land in a x wind greater than demonstrated does not exceed the POH but may exceed the pilot's capability, this = pilot error. Pilot error is what we are insured for.

[Capt Fathom]

crosswinds of 15 MPH can be handled with safety

It means crosswinds in excess of 15MPH cannot be handled safely. :rolleyes:

[falconfreak]

If this is your interpretation then stick to it, that will keep you safe. As far as the rest of the flying fraternity is concerned it should be exactly as intended, the aircraft has demonstrated a successful x wind landing with x knots of crosswind component, this is not a limiting factor.

[S-Works]

One of the things that I love about flying is the constant worry about what the insurance company might say. I don't know who others insure with but my insurance company put no restrictions on anything I do. I have referred them to the comments on these forums a number of times and they just laugh. Haywards have a simple view, if the aicraft and pilot are legal then they will insure to an agreed value. They charge a premium based on risk.

As far as the 172 is concerned I can assure you that at 30 kts across the runway there is still enough rudder authority to land with ease. I would never get to go flying in the winter at our place if I spent my life interpreting the POH for some restriction that is not there trying to satisfy some imaginary insurance company restriction.

I really do believe that a lot of people hide behind "what ifs" to avoid having any fun.........

[3 Point]

Sorry to jump in late on this but I thought it's worth saying that this is not just the same old "can I operate outside the max demonstrated x-wind?" discussion - re-read the original quote from gcolyer's operating manual which said ...

"The maximum allowable crosswind velocity is dependent upon pilot capability rather than airplane limitations. With average pilot technique, direct crosswinds of 15 MPH can be handled with safety."

There is no suggestion here of a "max demonstrated" x-wind, the statement does not, as BackPacker asserts, suggest that a factory pilot has demonstrated the aircraft's capability of landing in a 15Kt x-wind (although one can infer that it is likely he did). It simply states that "with average pilot technique, direct crosswinds of 15 MPH can be handled safely".
So, leaving aside the "can I operate outside the max demonstrated x-wind?" issue (I believe that one can and, like Bose-x I do). The wording from the book gives carte blanche to operate with any crosswind the pilot thinks fit!
I'd say that, if you approach it sensibly and develop your ability by working up through progressively stronger x-winds and perhaps using an instructor, you can use any x-wind limit you feel comfortable with. Indeed, if you were to crash you could probably claim against Cessna who said that the aircraft has no limit!

It's important to read the statements in the POH carefully and not to read into them anything which is not there!

3 Point

[foxmoth]

This whole thread is based on "if I crash it because of the crosswind" - Surely if you crash for this reason you WERE flying outside YOUR limits!:mad:

[3 Point]

Foxmoth,
Surely it would be good to find those limits without the crash! This is why I said practice by working up and using an instructor till you find your personal limit. I doubt the insurance company could object to this or try to refuse a claim. If the pilot had records of training flights with an instructor who had seen him operate safely up to a particular crasswind figure he could argue that this was within his capability!
The main point I am making is that you must read what's written in the POH and take it at face value. If one pilot chooses to limit himself to 10Kt x-wind then I am sure that he would be quite safe; another pilot choosing 35Kt as his limit may or may not not be safe but, he would be legal (as far as comliance with this section of the POH is concerned)!
3 Point

[gcolyer]

Sorry to jump in late on this but I thought it's worth saying that this is not just the same old "can I operate outside the max demonstrated x-wind?" discussion - re-read the original quote from gcolyer's operating manual which said ...

"The maximum allowable crosswind velocity is dependent upon pilot capability rather than airplane limitations. With average pilot technique, direct crosswinds of 15 MPH can be handled with safety."

There is no suggestion here of a "max demonstrated" x-wind, the statement does not, as BackPacker asserts, suggest that a factory pilot has demonstrated the aircraft's capability of landing in a 15Kt x-wind (although one can infer that it is likely he did). It simply states that "with average pilot technique, direct crosswinds of 15 MPH can be handled safely".
So, leaving aside the "can I operate outside the max demonstrated x-wind?" issue (I believe that one can and, like Bose-x I do). The wording from the book gives carte blanche to operate with any crosswind the pilot thinks fit!
I'd say that, if you approach it sensibly and develop your ability by working up through progressively stronger x-winds and perhaps using an instructor, you can use any x-wind limit you feel comfortable with. Indeed, if you were to crash you could probably claim against Cessna who said that the aircraft has no limit!

It's important to read the statements in the POH carefully and not to read into them anything which is not there!

3 Point


Thank you. Spot on. The maximum I have dealt with so far is 17 gusting 26.

[Tim Dawson]

When I was training for my PPL, towards the end when I'd been through the syllabus, I arrived at the airfield on a very windy day, prepared to be told to go home. The crosswind component of the wind was between 17 and 22 knots consistently, and I knew the PA28 I was learning in had a maximum demonstrated crosswind landing limit of 17 knots.

My assumption was that you couldn't attempt to land the aeroplane if you knew the crosswind was beyond this limit, but my instructor pointed out that this was simply a demonstrated limit and there was no harm in practicing on such a day to determine how I personally coped with strong winds, and in fact he thought practice in such conditions was a good thing for me to have.

It turned out to be a great training session - I felt safe because the instructor was there (though he never took control), I was performing crosswind landings at 22 knots across, and as it turned out, I handled it quite well. Now I feel that much more confident about handling such landings - although I'd still hesitate about knowingly landing in such conditions and be ready to go around at any time, I don't feel like it's beyond my ability.

[AfricanEagle]

Key words are "pilot capability".

Lets look at the situation from a different point of view.

If the POH said that max demonstrated crosswind was 50 knots (limit after which you lost rudder authority) would you feel safe and legal trying to land with 45 knots across if you weren't used to crosswinds exceeding 15 knots?

[Final 3 Greens]

Another key perspective is gusts.

20 knots steady is one challenge, 15 gusting 25 another.

Give me the former anyday.

[gcolyer]

I had 17 gusting 32 in the PA32 once. That was pretty hairy when I was 6 up in the aircraft.

[dublinpilot]

Another key perspective is gusts.

20 knots steady is one challenge, 15 gusting 25 another.

Give me the former anyday.


F3G,

The thing to remember his is that you may not know what the gust factor is.

By ICAO convention, only gusts which are 10kts or more above the mean wind speed in a certain period (I think it's the previous 10 minutes) are reported.

So while you might be happy with 20kts, but not happy 15kts gusting 25, the 15kts gusting 25kts could actually be much better! This is because the 20kts could easily be 20kts gusting 29kts, in which case the gust factor won't be reported, becuase it's less than 10kts over the mean wind speed!

dp

[Say again s l o w l y]

The reason Cessna and others use this wording is because of fear of being sued. If someone lost it in less than the stated limit then there was room for the manufacturer being "done" under the ridiculously litigeous American legal system.

So they changed it to this wooly advisory limit. The key is though, don't push your capabilities. If you aren't used to big winds, then go and have a cup of tea and when they drop a bit, get out and practice but make sure you have someone with you who can handle it!

[Final 3 Greens]

Dublin Pilot

I was talking about actual conditions not interpreting forecasts.

The difference is pretty obvious when you are flying the approach.

[dublinpilot]

F3G,

I'm not talking about forecasts either, but observations passed from either ATIS or passed from the tower.

If you're able to decide that you're comfortable from either the seat of your pants, or from the wind sock then that's fine.....and I suppose as an experienced pilot you should be.

I'm just surprised when people start to say that they find one particular set of numbers acceptable, but another not acceptable, but yet the acceptable ones may actually be more severe than the unacceptable ones ;)

I'm sure you know what I mean, but I often suspect people don't really understand what is being reported to them when they get a wind report ;)

dp

[RatherBeFlying]

A lot can depend on how frequently you are flying and how well attuned you are to the a/c handling. Just got back to gliders after the winter break and my landings in one type are not yet as good as they were last November.

The fun part of landing in strong winds is dealing with the sheer. I still remember approaching a strip in a 20+ kt. crosswind that suddenly disappeared as I came below the tops of the 30' spruce trees:uhoh:

[Final 3 Greens]

Dublinpilot

I see where you are coming from, but I was literally talking about the conditions.

Stick, feet, sock, visual (smoke, grass and standing crop etc) all help as you say.

The roughest day I ever flew on was only gusting up to 23 knots (I watched the anenometer before and after the flight), but it threw the SA120 all over the place, since there was quite some variation in wind direction, too.

The Bulldog had more than enough rudder authority to handle 23 knots (and it was not all cross either), but it was a rough old day.

[gcolyer]

A C172 h quiet easily handles a crosswind of 25kts gusting 36kts.

I had to land in those conditions at Lille last night. Tha TAF lied and the winds did not drop off like predicted, they got stronger!