Iranian Plane Crash

[steve1969]

BBC is reporting that an Iranian passenger plane has crashed near the city of Khorramabad. No further details as yet.

[steve1969]

Latest from the BBC:

An Iranian passenger plane has crashed into the mountains near the western Iranian city of Khorramabad, state radio has reported. . .The Tupolev airliner left the capital Tehran on Tuesday morning for Khorramabad.

There were some 160 passengers on board, according to local authorities.

There was no immediate information on the cause of the crash

[Hagbard the Amateur]

Try here

<a href="http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_518993.html?menu=" target="_blank">http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_518993.html?menu=</a>

Bad news

[newswatcher]

Reuters revises pax load to 105, but says that 30 bodies already DOA at local hospital. Wreckage on side of mountain.

[schit.furbraen]

Hopefully they'll get rid of those death traps.. .There are a lot of cheap western aircraft around now.. .Thoughts go out to their families.. .<a href="http://www.irna.com/en/tnews/020212134940.etn00.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.irna.com/en/tnews/020212134940.etn00.shtml</a>

[AEROVISION]

S.Fb

Can you elaborate on the words "deatht trap" ?. .If you are considering an answer, let me help you started.. .Since 1973 (data available). .Tu-154 crashes 23 casualties 2172. .B-727 crashes 37 casualties 2930

You consider the 727 a death trap as well then?. .Did you ever flew the 154, or the 727 to make the comparison, for that matter. Let me know.. .Here on PPRuNe we don't need soundbites and one liners when the topic is accidents. Facts please.

(statistics courtesy of the fine people of Airdisaster.com)

With best regards. .A.V.

[Few Cloudy]

And while we are on facts, how many of each type have been operating and at what rate during the period quoted - just to get a feel for the successful flights too...

[LMD]

AEROVISION AND FEW CLOUDY,

you might want to check the stats a little more closely. how many of the 727 crashes were due to a problem with the airframe. very, very few. most of the incidents were in the early years of the aircraft and were mostly due to pilot error (this was the first jet experience for many of the pilots and there was a steep learning curve). most of the recent crashes are CFIT, no flaps on T.O, and such.

i am not sure what the percentage of mechanical failures is on the tupolev, but you were emplying that the 727 was just as dangerous, which in my humble opinion is nonsense.

[PA38]

Why start quoting statistics? if you wanted to quote the worst safety record of any airliner then statisticaly it is not an eastern block ex-bomber but our very own Concorde <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[Cahlibahn]

Bear in mind why Iran Air and other Iranian carriers had to buy Yaks and Tupolevs - US sanctions. They couldn't even legally purchase engines for their Airbuses last I heard.

[ 12 February 2002: Message edited by: Cahlibahn ]</p>

[PaperTiger]

PA38. .Depends entirely on what metric you use. . .Based on how many of a particular model have been destroyed expressed as a percentage of the number built, Concorde is near the bottom of the list at 5%. So are the Tu154 (5.9%) and the 727 (4.8%).. .<a href="http://aviation-safety.net/statistics/aircraft.html" target="_blank">http://aviation-safety.net/statistics/aircraft.html</a>

Rather surprising figures for the Hercules (civil version only I assume) and also the dear old Viscount.

I don't propose this method of comparison is any more meaningful, just illustrating that statistics really don't tell you much about the relative safety of a particular model, for the reasons which others have stated.

[Raas767]

This is off the topic and not relevent here, but I have well over 4000 hours on 727's and I would take that airplane in an emergency with a good engineer over just about any other airplane ever made with possible exceptions being the 747 classics, 707's and DC8's.. .Most 72's are underpowered but built like brick outhouses with multiple redundant systems and manual reversion on all flight controls (which I realy miss). The airplane also requires good airmanship and is unforgiving to the ill trained or sloppy aviator.. .Sorry I didn't mean to go off like that but I realy love the old girl. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[schit.furbraen]

I am so sorry to cause this. . .All I meant was that the Tu-154 has many accidents due to system failure where there was no way out of the situation. and they seem to blow up some times (I'm not quoting the Ukrain missle practice) due to engines etc.. .Also I meant the Iranians getting rid of the TU's anyway. . .They had a good saftey record till the sanctions, trigger happy yanks and the Russian shopping trips...

[allianceair]

Hey guys just keeping with the forum motto, Asian pilots, Hindus, and Iranian pilots can't fly. <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[Ignition Override]

Just lots of questions here (ah, not again...). Many of you folks out there are very knowledgeable. Did most or a large fraction Tu-154s originally operate for the Soviet's Aeroflot or for their puppet states? I'm just curious, because the former Soviet Union (or even eastern European airlines?) was not known for publishing accident figures on very many of its aircraft types-but maybe my impression is far from the truth.

Apparently, all of the older statistics covering incidents/accidents before the fall of the Iron Curtain are now included in various accident statistic tables?

I read that a certain Aeroflot jet type (maybe the Tu-134 or 154?) was known to have had major malfunctions with its reversers, and depite the fact that a number of Aeroflot pilots were blamed and fired after some incidents or accidents, it was revealed after many years that a cover-up had taken place.

I read several years ago in the US magazine "Business Week", that many PRC Chinese pilots were working at least 150-170 block-to-block hours or more per month, from what I remember. Do many countries in the world far exceed even US/British/Ir/European duty rules? Can Captain's in all countries refuse to fly the airplane due to system/instrument problems, based on an MEL manual or such, without facing termination of his job/profession?

In Iran or in other countries, do political or 'job title' (pilots who lack currency, or are mostly management/admin types) factors complicate which pilots fly certain aircraft or routes? Does Iran have and use/allow replacement of correct spare parts when needed?

[ 13 February 2002: Message edited by: Ignition Override ]</p>

[BIG PARTYR]

It's amazing how few people respond to the death of a hundred or so "insignificant middle easteners".. .I think it is true that some peoles lives are worth more than others on the world market.

[AEROVISION]

MLD, . .I was not emplying that the 727 was an unsafe aircraft, it is not, nor is the 154.. .I was questioning sfb on his perception of the 154 and used simple basic equations to get my point in. (btw my figures start after 1973, that is after the learning curve.). .As for the statistics, numbers build, sectors flown and years in service, I think Paper Tiger summed it up very well in his above posting.

And, allianceair, can you back up Your soundbite?. .Pilot error is conclusive in many accidents and NO nationality is exempted.

With best regards. .A.V.

[411A]

Flew into Khoramabad many times in the mid-seventies....lots of high nasty terrain thereabouts..and yes, NDB approaches at that time altho we had Omega/VLF as well, helped a lot.. .The VLF was VERY accurate.. .Iran Air at that time was a well respected carrier, with a good safety record. Maintenance top-notch as well. Had the Shah on board for two flights...and our call sign was "blue flight 001".. .Quite a pleasant guy....and an accomplished pilot.

[ 13 February 2002: Message edited by: 411A ]</p>

[Harvy]

BP - Just because there is no outpouring of emotion does not mean fewer people care. No one enjoy's air disasters. It's just not as much a shock when an old bird in a poor 3rd world wasteland goes down in high terrain and possibly bad wx. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

As for [quote] anyways, I'm off for a bloody good shaggin <hr></blockquote> Rosy Palms? <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[newswatcher]

Local comment from the Dubai Gulf News:

"An Iranian airliner carrying 117 people crashed into a mountain while trying to land in western Iran yesterday, killing all aboard, a senior official and local residents said.

The Russian-built Tupolev-154, belonging to Iran Air Tours, an affiliate of the state carrier Iran Air, was flying from the capital Tehran to Khorramabad when it disappeared from radar screens southwest of the city.

Low cloud and heavily overcast skies may have hampered landing, residents said. The official, who declined to be identified, said those killed - 105 passengers and the rest crew - included four government officials. Four Spaniards were also among the dead.

The latest in a series of air disasters in Iran prompted calls in parliament for the resignation of Transport Minister Ahmad Khorram and aviation agency head, Behzad Mazaheri.

"Every once in a while a plane crashes, there is some debate and then the whole thing is forgotten," MP Azam Naseripour told Iran's IRNA news agency. "No one is ready to take responsibility for the lack of air security in Iran."

Another deputy, Golamreza Barzegar said parliament was moving towards impeaching the minister if he did not resign.

In Madrid, the Spanish Foreign Ministry identified the four dead Spaniards as businessmen Jesus Maria Olazabal, Juan Carlos Goikoetxea, Joseba Mirene, Julio Ibarra. They were from the Basque region of northern Spain and worked for the Basque-based household appliance maker Fagor Arrabate.

Khorramabad lies to the east of the Zagros mountain range running along the border with Iraq. State radio said villagers in the area were startled by an explosion early in the morning.

"There is a mountain close to the airport and the plane crashed into it as it was landing," said a local resident who visited the crash site. "The plane was totally destroyed and scattered in small pieces across the mountain."

State television showed pieces of metal strewn across jagged outcrops on the side of a mountain topped with thick mist.

President Mohammad Khatami ordered a special task force to investigate the crash.

An aviation official told the television rescuers were unable to reach the crash site due to bad weather and logistical problems and that the search for the victims had been postponed until Wednesday.

He said only small pieces of the plane had been spotted in the Chegeni region of Khorramabad.

Iranian airlines have been dogged by accidents in recent years, prompting calls for greater efficiency and revamp of the the country's ageing air fleet, many of them Boeings acquired before the 1979 Islamic revolution.

U.S. sanctions bar the sale of Boeing airliners to the Islamic Republic and hinder the acquisition of other aircraft, many of which rely on U.S.-built engines or other components. Iran has turned to Russia and Ukraine for cheaper planes.

Last May, a Russian-built Yakovlev Yak-40 plane carrying 30 people, including the transport minister and seven MPs, crashed near the northern town of Sari killing all on board.

Following that crash, Iranian legislators called for tighter aircraft safety controls and an end to the use of planes from the countries of the former Soviet Union.

In Moscow, Tupolev design chief Alexander Shingart discounted suggestions that the Tupolev-154 which crashed yesterday had suffered a technical failure.

"It was one of the last aircraft to come off the line and underwent repairs in June 2000 and in January it underwent regulatory maintenance. The plane was brought up to tip-top shape and everything was checked," he told Ekho Moskvy radio."

[5 APU's captain]

The latest:. .Wrong (opposite RW) ILS frequensy has been set by the navigator! (domestic crew)

[MrNosy]

The aircraft involved is msn 91A871 built in 1991 so not that old.

Having reviewed the accident reports held by the Commission for Flight Safety in Moscow and Tupolev's records, I would say that 'technical faults/failures' figure no more often as factors in TU154 crashes than they do in western types - there are some of course but not many.

However, do TU154s put a greater demand for effective CRM than western-types? With pilot, co-pilot, flight engineer, navigator and possibly radio operator, it strikes me that flying one of these puts a greater demand on correctly co-ordinating all these people.

Could some of the TU154 drivers on this forum who have also flown western types offer a view?

And just to avoid misunderstandings, none of my comments are intended as speculation on what factors may or may not be significant in this accident.

[5 APU's captain]

1. There is no any CRM in Soviets still!. .2. The crew workload is based on the . . navigator's commands (when the navigator is . . included into a crew).

[Flight Detent]

Ref 'raas767'. .Sounds like your also a refined three crew man, and as such, you're a friend of mine forever!. .Cheers.

[5 APU's captain]

About 50 crews from Russia were working for the Iran Air before, they are saying about difficalt approach between mountains without a radar control.. .Iran Air preffers Tu-154M due to very good climb performance.

[Few Cloudy]

LMD,

You mistook my drift - the point was to show that the 727 has been an extensively used and successful aircraft.

A bit irrelevant now anyway. Condolences to all involved.

[5 APU's captain]

The russian sim instructors are saying that they have refused to sign off the sim checkride to some Iranian pilots, but any way they are flying!. .And what the flight instructors are saying - these guys are not using the checklists and very often forgetting to set the QNH!!!. .I believe them.. .The most TU154 crashes - the human factor.