Light aircraft down near Oban

[Graham Borland]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/6542797.stm

[PPRuNe Radar]

Health Warning : It's from TV News.

Aircraft reported as an Apache which left Oban yesterday bound for Blackpool and then Essex. 3POB and crashed on Carn Dearg mountain 9 miles Southeast of the airfield. Radar replays show the aircraft was last seen descending rapidly fom 5000'

Not looking good for those on board :(

[Captain Smithy]

BBC Reporting Scotland now reporting that there are fatalities.

Condolences to all those involved. RIP.:(

[Chukkablade]

Very sad, and its looking as if a child was on board as well. Dreadfull.

I by no means wish to speculate, but can anyone tell me how the weather was today? I merely ask as I had planned a trip to Oban yesterday, but the weather looked dreadfull, and I made the decision to turn back at Callender (I was 3.5 miles to Callenders southeast, and couldn't see the town for mist)

Condolences to the family.

[PPRuNe Radar]

I cancelled a trip via Cumbernauld to Oban today. Chances of RA and DZ plus localised hill fog and BKN SC around the 900' to 1500' mark were not very enticing. Winds were 15 Kts gusting to 20+, on the surface. Not a great day for flying.

That said, the aircraft departed Oban yesterday, albeit the weather conditions were much the same as todays.

[fisbangwollop]

Is it confirmed the aircraft departed yesterday???? If so a long time has elapsed before the aircraft was reported missing??

[PPRuNe Radar]

The health warning was that it came from TV News. I guess it would also depend on whether or not the 'responsible person' at destination procedure was used or not. This could lead to a delay depending on how it was carried out and the briefing such a person had been given. All conjecture at the moment of course.

It's a sad event and we can only hope that the facts come out quickly so that everyone can learn from the tragedy :(

[fisbangwollop]

I guess the actual facts may be vastly different from the press reports so far. Not wanting to second guess but it amazes me how many folk choose to fly over hostile terrain without making contact with ATC, maybe not the case in this instance though..... My thoughts are with those that have lost loved ones in this tragic accident.

[Chukkablade]

Pprune radar, that sounds very similar to yesterday when I was up. Ben Vorlich (spelling?) and the like were shrouded in mist, and the winds were very strong - you could certainly believe the weather guesser's prediction of 28 knot+ gusts. I've never flown into Oban before (just overflys from my plank days), so all that, plus the surrounding terrain, was a big factor in my decision to go have lunch elsewhere and leave that for another day.

Report on the news is that the aircraft in question had a 'rapid descent' from 5000 ft according to ATC. Sorry if its still a bit raw to ask this question, but I just wonder what went wrong that day??:(

Just really, really sad all round. The fact a child was involved makes it a lot worse IMHO. I know it shouldn't, but as a proud dad, for me it just does.:(

[fisbangwollop]

I understand from press reports the flight departed Oban at 1130 Monday but was not reported missing till tuesday afternoon....I can only assume therfore after departure from Oban the aircraft never made contact with ATC and therefore no one had any idea the poor guy was in trouble.
"PPrune Radar" mentions the aircraft was seen on radar to make a rapid descent from 5000ft, again I assume this is from data gleaned from radar recordings once it had been decided the aircraft was missing more than 24 hours later!
I guess in this instance it may not have helped the final outcome but at least if the flight had been in contact with the Scottish FIR service or other ATC agency the alarm bells would have been rung some 24 hours or so earlier?
Once again it points out the danger's of flying over the hostile terrain of the mountains and glenns of Scotland without making RT contact with some agency.
Once again all my own opinion on what is a very sad and tragic event.

[Chukkablade]

Wholeheartedly agree, Fisbangwollop. I know a few folks who like to do the 'Relax, it's open Airspace, we dont need to talk to anyone', but I'm certainly not one of them.

If Mr Robinsons finest has a bad day, I REALLY want someone to know where I am as I pull off the auto of my life. Also, with the general public being a tad 'anti GA' as their default setting, it's good to be able to prove via the logs that it wasn't you having an airspace infringement/ beating up some farmhouse/cowshed/housing estate etc at 500ft. You were elsewhere, and can prove the same.

All the above simply my own opinion, and its a free country (just), so there it is.

All very sad though.:(

[IO540]

If the reports of wreckage "all over the hillside" are correct it does sound like these people would not have been helped by a rapid rescue. Most CFITs are like that.

Very sad, and the 2nd CFIT with a child on board within not many weeks (the Seneca 2T in France being the earlier one).

[gasax]

It should be remembered that there are significant areas of Scotland where two way with Scottish is not possible unless you are at a significant height above the terrain.

From memory over the Firth of Lorn its quite good - but a few miles inland and it's impossible unless you get above FL 5x something.

At the end of the day in any CFIT incident radio contact is not even a 'nice to have'. For any of the other failures a broadcast on 121.5 is more likely to get attention.

Scottish frequently find they cannot maintain two-way and are probably quite used to aircraft 'disappearing', I suspect only if they suspect a problem would they try and track down the aircraft. It is largely because of this that many pilots in this area only contact Scottish if they expect to be able to maintain two way - coming from the eastern side of Scotland I don't expect to be able to....

[fisbangwollop]

Quote.."Scottish frequently find they cannot maintain two-way and are probably quite used to aircraft 'disappearing', I suspect only if they suspect a problem would they try and track down the aircraft. It is largely because of this that many pilots in this area only contact Scottish if they expect to be able to maintain two way - coming from the eastern side of Scotland I don't expect to be able to....Unquote
Oban area below 2000ft can be a bit scratchy on 119.875 VHF being line of sight etc! , generally above that not a problem. I think you will find that the guys operating Scottish FIR take more care and feel more concern for you if you do dissapear off the frequency than you may think! Although not required to do so if contact is lost a few phone calls will usually establish if all is safe and well and is generally the norm..........take a leaf out of the Army Air Chopper boys at QL, these guys if only flying 10 miles or so will always use the service.
As for coverage on 121.5 this is indeed very poor over the highlands of Scotland.
The service is there to be used, it is free and the more that use it the more will benefit from it!

[PPRuNe Radar]

I would definitely vouch for the Scottish Information guys reputation in providing a service which goes above and beyond the laid down 'contract' which FIS demands. They regularly, in my experience, track down aircraft they have lost contact with in order to make sure things are alright. A nice enhancement to the service and provides that initial early warning in the event things are not going to plan. Of course, this does require pilots to speak to them :) I'd agree that the coverage of the FIS is generally OK above 3000' in the areas North and West of the Central Lowlands (i.e. Glasgow and Edinburgh). You'd probably want to be above that altitude anyway in the mountains unless the weather is great and you know where you're going.

The local rag has the aircraft as G-JMTT which would make it a Piper PA28R Arrow based in Essex. Understandably the registered owner of the group aircraft refused to speak to the paper about the incident. The police have stated that the alarm was raised by one of the group members when they realised it had not returned from Scotland.

Latest news here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/6543373.stm

[IO540]

From the BBC report

A spokesman for the Civil Aviation Authority said there was no legal requirement for a private pilot to file a flight plan unless they were going abroad or crossing a large expanse of water

Is that right?

Also I don't see how maintaining radio contact with an FIS (which, in the UK, is generally non radar and cannot therefore offer any navigation assistance especially relative to terrain) is going to help with a CFIT.

[Chris Royle]

Ref. BBC report and CAA comment re. flight plans.
When touring Southern Ireland last year and questioning why we had to file VFR flight plans, we were told that following a similar sort of accident to this had led to ALL flights in Southern Ireland require a flight plan. (I also seem to remember being told that there was a public outcry that someone could be left on a mountainside without anyone knowing).
That's not to say it will prevent CFIT accidents, but it might just provide help to someone seriously injured in such an accident who may otherwise die if left longer without help.

[TheFox]

Is that right?


9.5 A pilot is required to file a flight plan:
a) for all flights within controlled airspace, Class A–E, which are conducted in
accordance with IFR;
b) for flights within Class B, C and D airspace conducted in accordance with VFR;
c) when he wishes to receive an air traffic advisory service (Class F airspace);
d) for all flights which will cross a United Kingdom international FIR boundary;
e) for any flight where the destination is more than 40 km from the aerodrome of
departure and the aircraft’s maximum total weight authorised exceeds 5700 kg.
9.6 A pilot is advised to file a flight plan:
a) if his flight involves flying over the sea more than 10 miles from the UK coast or
flying over sparsely populated areas where search and rescue operations would be
difficult; or
b) if he intends to fly into an area in which search and rescue operations are in
progress. The flight plan should include the expected times of entering and leaving
the area and the details must also be passed to the parent ACC. The ACC is to

So the answer would be half right. Though I would think i might be a miss quote.

[neutron]

Is it not a requirement in the UK that aircraft carry an ELT ?..No it isn't. There was supposed to be a requirement coming in on Jan 1st requiring ELTs to be carried if more than 10 mins from land but as far as I can see, the ANO has not yet been ammended to make this law. Even if the ANO had been ammended, it would not have affected this flight as it was mainly over land and the over water bits would have been within 10 mins of the coast.

[Fuji Abound]

STOP

Not commenting in any way on this accident BUT can we stop encouraging yet more regulation!

Everyone knows (or should know) it makes snese to carry an ELT, life jackets, life rafts, inform someone if you are flying over inhospitable terrain etc but:

1. Not everyone wants to fly over water etc - ever. Not everyone wants to have an ELT fitted, but if this is promoted then before we know, it will become mandatory in every G reg aircraft as it is for every N reg aircraft as will an annual test of the equipment.

2. Can we recognise that pilots should be responsible people able to make some sensible decisions about risk and risk assessment. Some pilots will not fly across the north sea without two engines, and that is fine by me, but if we are not careful you will not be able to cross the north sea with one engine period.

[DB6]

SoCal App, BOLLOCKS! It's bad enough that the authorities are going to force Mode S on private pilots without any more crap. If someone had a car crash in a remote region and wasn't found for 24 hours it would not cause a stir, why so different for aircraft? I don't imagine an ELT would have made much difference anyway in this case, but there is far too much legislation in general aviation as it is already. Also, can you imagine the amount of false alarms that would result if they were fitted to every light aircraft? Not well thought out, mate (unless you own a company making ELTs of course :E ).

[Say again s l o w l y]

ELT's would only be of use in remote areas such as the highlands of Scotland. Most light aircraft don't ever come up here, so ELT's would be complete overkill for the vast majority of the UK fleet.

I know the area around Oban well and that afternoon I wouldn't have been tempted to get airborne.

Another sad and most likely unnecessary event. R.I.P

[Three Yellows]

SoCal,

I think DB6's response to you was 'spot on' and I agree whole heartedly with him. As you have stated in the past, you are a Brit but now live in So Cal, so please, stop poking your nose in (a) about things here in general and (b) about remote bits of Scotland in particular.... i.e. Oban (I'm sure you know what I mean). And NO, we don't want more regulation.

TY.

[H Ferguson]

Chris Royle



When touring Southern Ireland last year and questioning why we had to file VFR flight plans, we were told that following a similar sort of accident to this had led to ALL flights in Southern Ireland require a flight plan.



VFR Flight Plan only required in flying in Class C , entering/leaving a CTR, crossing the border to N.I. or flying across water i.e. U.K.

If you were flying say from Trim EITM / Abbbeyshrule EIAB lets say to Killkenny EIKL you would contact Dublin or Shannon and let them know you / what and where your going but no flight plan required.


sad news , i visited Oban last year and have to say its in a very beautiful part of the world.

[arem]

BBC reporting now that it was a PA28 Arrow - 3 adults on board (Father,Mother and adult daughter) all reported fatal - routing was planned Oban - Andrewsfield

RIP

[glenroberts]

See:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/6543373.stm

I never realised flight plans were that important to your average private flights around the UK but these guys went totally unnoticed!

[high-hopes]

This thread

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=271495

also went unnoticed to you !

[murphy1901]

Further update from the BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/6543373.stm
RIP

[glenroberts]

HaHa! Yea, sorry bit of a newbie - didn't realise this kind of thing was for the 'Private Flying' forum and the Mods moved it straight there (where I hadn't looked!).

[ShyTorque]

ELTs mandatory? Why? Are they crashproof? I think an ELT wouldn't survive a violent impact on a hillside.

VFR flightplans / flight following; As a helicopter pilot I operate from "off-airfield" locations much of the time (four different ones today) and so don't file written flight plans, even when forced to go IFR. Because of this I am diligent about keeping my operator informed about pax delays etc. The one day I don't turn up and don't make contact by phone or other means, I hope someone will become concerned and sound the alarm. I also make it a priority to get some sort of R/T contact with one agency or another and always state my POB (we had a discussion about this very subject a couple of years ago).

[gasax]

ELTs, compulsory flight plans, radio - give it a rest. We already have the beaurocracy nonsense of 'booking out' as a result of the Bentine crash eons ago.

If people want that sort of warm fuzzy strait jacket - fine, presumably when you can no longer talk to someone on the radio you'll do a 180 and return to 'safety'?

Some of us actually fly for the freedom (comparative!) and sights that it gives us. The scenery and remoteness of the NW of Scotland is a major lure for me. Why do I need all this crap?

If something bad happens then I'll have to cope with it (or not). Pretty much the same if I went there on a motorcycle or sailed there in my yacht. (pleanty of both of which have disappeared never to be found).

you want an ELT - buy one and I hope when it goes off without cause you get the bill. You want people to know where and when - tell them. but if you want people to come and look for you - expect the same sort of approach the French adopt - you pay for it.

You want to push the weather because of something 'important'- accept the consequences (which may or may not be what happened here).

The last thing we need is the nonsense kneejerk reaction that many posters are giving. Why not just support the GPS road pricing proposal - and insist it is extended to aircraft so no one will ever be untrackable......

[Daysleeper]

I would not like to see mandatory anything, however I would like to draw attention to this MAIB (marine accident investigation branch) report. The small sailing yacht Ouzo was sunk by a large ferry. The likelyhood is one of the crew survived over 12 hours in the channel before succumbing to the elements. They did not have an ELT, raft or a yachting equivalent of a flight plan.
The principles apply equally to recreational aircraft.
Everybody has choices to make and as an aircraft commander you make choices for your passengers as well because they dont have the skills and training to make those decisions for themselves.
Plenty of crashes are survivable and when your on a hillside with multiple injuries its a bit late to wish you had told someone when and where you were flying, infact you might regret it for the rest of your life.

[Say again s l o w l y]

As Daysleeper has already said, there is a time and place for everything. When flying over a remote and/or mountainous terrain, then you should take extra precautions. An ELT/flight plan/responsible person at one end of the flight would be appropriate.

It's all just helping load the odds slighty further in your direction. Though sometimes nothing can help if you take liberties with the weather or terrain.

I wouldn't want to be forced to take anything other than by my own airmanship or common sense.

[S-Works]

I never leave home without my ELT, McMurdo fast find. I would hate to survice the crash and die of exposure.......

[Fuji Abound]

So asking the original question, are there any circumstances in which an ELT is required?

No, there is no legal requirement to carry an ELT on European light aircraft - but of course you can if you wish.

In spite of my earlier comment I am not opposed to ELTs. The problem with regulations is usually if someone decides the carrying of an ELT is a good idea it simply ends up in indiscriminate legislation. In other words what will actually happen is all aircraft from microlights and gliders upwards will be required to carry an ELT and it will have to be a panel fit and it will have to be re-certified every year.

There are many aircraft that rarely do more than operate around the local area. There are few remotely desolate areas in the south of England these days!

There are also pilots who are prepared to cross channel without a life raft, life jackets, ELT etc. Personally imho that is their call, in the same way as some one else commented, you can go fell walking or mountain climbing or set sail across the channel without telling anyone and without any safety equipment. Stupid - probably, and if the RNLI find you be prepared to make a hansom donation. However, we don’t need any more regulations and we especially don’t need any more indiscriminate legislation. If a pilot is not intelligent enough to realise some or all of this equipment might be warranted in some circumstances and he decides not to carry it in my view that is his look out.

[Phoenix09]

No, there is no legal requirement to carry an ELT on European light aircraft - but of course you can if you wish.


As of the 15th March 2007 there is now a legal requirement to carry an ELT if you are flying over water more that ten minutes cruising time away from land. Having spoken to the man from the CAA yesterday, to comply with the legislation the ELT must conform to CAA/EASA standards. He stated that there are no portable ELT's that meet these standards. When I queried why this new legislation hadn't been more widely promulgated he informed me that it had been out for consultation for two years. Quite who they consulted with I am not sure. For those looking for chapter and verse on this the ANO has been amended but CAP 393 is still going through the publishing stage.

[Fuji Abound]

As of the 15th March 2007 there is now a legal requirement to carry an ELT if you are flying over water more that ten minutes cruising time away from land.

Thank you. I was not aware and clearly a very important change.

If anyone has a reference to the amending legislation in the ANO that would be very helpful.

It would mean a great many aircraft (including a lot of the rental fleet) will no longer be capable of going to France. If it is crusing time as contrasted with glide distance even L2K will be out.

[DB6]

SoCal App, I can see how my robust reply to your earlier post might cause offence, so for that I apologise. That said I am very much against the attitude that demands blanket legislation in response to isolated incidents - I am sure you are aware of how UK GA currently staggers under the weight of **** heaped on it by JAR - so my point remains. What this incident will do, though, is highlight the precautions that may be taken (N.B. may, not must) to improve your chances and I'll bet there are a few more people making contact with Scottish Info than would have previously been the case.
I was aware of the 406 MHz thing but wasn't aware that had led to a significant drop in false activations - further research necessary on my part I think :\ .

Cheers DB6

[Daysleeper]

I know this is a bit of thread drift so I'm sorry....

The 406MHZ thing AFAIK is not so much a case of less false activations of beacons than frequency clutter. Ie peoples toasters setting off the SARSATs. The other big benifit is 406 beacons are aircraft/person coded so each is associated with an owner who's info is on file and can be contacted rapidly to determine if it is an inadvertant activation. So you stil get the false activation but instead of sending a sea king you can phone the owner up... who then tells you his aircraft is in the hanger, end of search.

A good overview is at this US mil link. (http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:G40JeSiTbK4J:www.acc.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-060405-037.doc+elt+accuracy&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&client=safari)

The other benefit is Location Accuracy

406 MHz ELT W/GPS

Accuracy – .05 nm

Search Area – .008 sq nm

Search Area reduced by a factor of 45!

121.5 MHz ELT

Accuracy – 12 nm

Search Area – 452 sq nm

406.0 MHz ELT

Accuracy – 2 nm

Search Area – 13 sq nm

[DB6]

Further research duly carried out; this http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/406vs121.pdf is also a good link on the 406/121.5 Mhz subject.

[IO540]

Let's keep this forum reasonably polite.

Pprune used to get very aggressive, and a lot of people left. Some of them were good people. Now it's better, but we still get bad manners occassionally. This is no good for anybody.

[IRRenewal]

Personally I am a bit upset that a thread about a fatal aircraft crash had turned into a bitching competition about ELTs and flight plans. Maybe you should all have a look at this (http://www.maldon.gov.uk/home) link.

Regards

[Capt Whisky Whisky]

Thank you IRRenewal,

I think you have just expressed what a many of us were thinking.

I spoke to the family shortly before they departed for home, and they came across as very nice people who were enjoying their flying in this part of the world.

So, a bit of respect chaps, and let the AIB sort it out.

WW