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Light aircraft down near Oban

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Light aircraft down near Oban

Old 10th Apr 2007, 17:17
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Light aircraft down near Oban

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/...st/6542797.stm
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Old 10th Apr 2007, 17:34
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Health Warning : It's from TV News.

Aircraft reported as an Apache which left Oban yesterday bound for Blackpool and then Essex. 3POB and crashed on Carn Dearg mountain 9 miles Southeast of the airfield. Radar replays show the aircraft was last seen descending rapidly fom 5000'

Not looking good for those on board
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Old 10th Apr 2007, 17:36
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BBC Reporting Scotland now reporting that there are fatalities.

Condolences to all those involved. RIP.
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Old 10th Apr 2007, 19:26
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Very sad, and its looking as if a child was on board as well. Dreadfull.

I by no means wish to speculate, but can anyone tell me how the weather was today? I merely ask as I had planned a trip to Oban yesterday, but the weather looked dreadfull, and I made the decision to turn back at Callender (I was 3.5 miles to Callenders southeast, and couldn't see the town for mist)

Condolences to the family.
 
Old 10th Apr 2007, 20:12
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I cancelled a trip via Cumbernauld to Oban today. Chances of RA and DZ plus localised hill fog and BKN SC around the 900' to 1500' mark were not very enticing. Winds were 15 Kts gusting to 20+, on the surface. Not a great day for flying.

That said, the aircraft departed Oban yesterday, albeit the weather conditions were much the same as todays.
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Old 10th Apr 2007, 20:19
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Is it confirmed the aircraft departed yesterday???? If so a long time has elapsed before the aircraft was reported missing??
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Old 10th Apr 2007, 20:36
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The health warning was that it came from TV News. I guess it would also depend on whether or not the 'responsible person' at destination procedure was used or not. This could lead to a delay depending on how it was carried out and the briefing such a person had been given. All conjecture at the moment of course.

It's a sad event and we can only hope that the facts come out quickly so that everyone can learn from the tragedy
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Old 10th Apr 2007, 20:45
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I guess the actual facts may be vastly different from the press reports so far. Not wanting to second guess but it amazes me how many folk choose to fly over hostile terrain without making contact with ATC, maybe not the case in this instance though..... My thoughts are with those that have lost loved ones in this tragic accident.
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Old 10th Apr 2007, 22:46
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Pprune radar, that sounds very similar to yesterday when I was up. Ben Vorlich (spelling?) and the like were shrouded in mist, and the winds were very strong - you could certainly believe the weather guesser's prediction of 28 knot+ gusts. I've never flown into Oban before (just overflys from my plank days), so all that, plus the surrounding terrain, was a big factor in my decision to go have lunch elsewhere and leave that for another day.

Report on the news is that the aircraft in question had a 'rapid descent' from 5000 ft according to ATC. Sorry if its still a bit raw to ask this question, but I just wonder what went wrong that day??

Just really, really sad all round. The fact a child was involved makes it a lot worse IMHO. I know it shouldn't, but as a proud dad, for me it just does.
 
Old 11th Apr 2007, 10:01
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I understand from press reports the flight departed Oban at 1130 Monday but was not reported missing till tuesday afternoon....I can only assume therfore after departure from Oban the aircraft never made contact with ATC and therefore no one had any idea the poor guy was in trouble.
"PPrune Radar" mentions the aircraft was seen on radar to make a rapid descent from 5000ft, again I assume this is from data gleaned from radar recordings once it had been decided the aircraft was missing more than 24 hours later!
I guess in this instance it may not have helped the final outcome but at least if the flight had been in contact with the Scottish FIR service or other ATC agency the alarm bells would have been rung some 24 hours or so earlier?
Once again it points out the danger's of flying over the hostile terrain of the mountains and glenns of Scotland without making RT contact with some agency.
Once again all my own opinion on what is a very sad and tragic event.
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Old 11th Apr 2007, 10:15
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Wholeheartedly agree, Fisbangwollop. I know a few folks who like to do the 'Relax, it's open Airspace, we dont need to talk to anyone', but I'm certainly not one of them.

If Mr Robinsons finest has a bad day, I REALLY want someone to know where I am as I pull off the auto of my life. Also, with the general public being a tad 'anti GA' as their default setting, it's good to be able to prove via the logs that it wasn't you having an airspace infringement/ beating up some farmhouse/cowshed/housing estate etc at 500ft. You were elsewhere, and can prove the same.

All the above simply my own opinion, and its a free country (just), so there it is.

All very sad though.
 
Old 11th Apr 2007, 10:17
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If the reports of wreckage "all over the hillside" are correct it does sound like these people would not have been helped by a rapid rescue. Most CFITs are like that.

Very sad, and the 2nd CFIT with a child on board within not many weeks (the Seneca 2T in France being the earlier one).
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Old 11th Apr 2007, 11:08
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It should be remembered that there are significant areas of Scotland where two way with Scottish is not possible unless you are at a significant height above the terrain.

From memory over the Firth of Lorn its quite good - but a few miles inland and it's impossible unless you get above FL 5x something.

At the end of the day in any CFIT incident radio contact is not even a 'nice to have'. For any of the other failures a broadcast on 121.5 is more likely to get attention.

Scottish frequently find they cannot maintain two-way and are probably quite used to aircraft 'disappearing', I suspect only if they suspect a problem would they try and track down the aircraft. It is largely because of this that many pilots in this area only contact Scottish if they expect to be able to maintain two way - coming from the eastern side of Scotland I don't expect to be able to....
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Old 11th Apr 2007, 11:36
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Quote.."Scottish frequently find they cannot maintain two-way and are probably quite used to aircraft 'disappearing', I suspect only if they suspect a problem would they try and track down the aircraft. It is largely because of this that many pilots in this area only contact Scottish if they expect to be able to maintain two way - coming from the eastern side of Scotland I don't expect to be able to....Unquote
Oban area below 2000ft can be a bit scratchy on 119.875 VHF being line of sight etc! , generally above that not a problem. I think you will find that the guys operating Scottish FIR take more care and feel more concern for you if you do dissapear off the frequency than you may think! Although not required to do so if contact is lost a few phone calls will usually establish if all is safe and well and is generally the norm..........take a leaf out of the Army Air Chopper boys at QL, these guys if only flying 10 miles or so will always use the service.
As for coverage on 121.5 this is indeed very poor over the highlands of Scotland.
The service is there to be used, it is free and the more that use it the more will benefit from it!
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Old 11th Apr 2007, 13:03
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I would definitely vouch for the Scottish Information guys reputation in providing a service which goes above and beyond the laid down 'contract' which FIS demands. They regularly, in my experience, track down aircraft they have lost contact with in order to make sure things are alright. A nice enhancement to the service and provides that initial early warning in the event things are not going to plan. Of course, this does require pilots to speak to them I'd agree that the coverage of the FIS is generally OK above 3000' in the areas North and West of the Central Lowlands (i.e. Glasgow and Edinburgh). You'd probably want to be above that altitude anyway in the mountains unless the weather is great and you know where you're going.

The local rag has the aircraft as G-JMTT which would make it a Piper PA28R Arrow based in Essex. Understandably the registered owner of the group aircraft refused to speak to the paper about the incident. The police have stated that the alarm was raised by one of the group members when they realised it had not returned from Scotland.

Latest news here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/...st/6543373.stm
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Old 11th Apr 2007, 14:02
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From the BBC report

A spokesman for the Civil Aviation Authority said there was no legal requirement for a private pilot to file a flight plan unless they were going abroad or crossing a large expanse of water

Is that right?

Also I don't see how maintaining radio contact with an FIS (which, in the UK, is generally non radar and cannot therefore offer any navigation assistance especially relative to terrain) is going to help with a CFIT.
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Old 11th Apr 2007, 14:19
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Ref. BBC report and CAA comment re. flight plans.
When touring Southern Ireland last year and questioning why we had to file VFR flight plans, we were told that following a similar sort of accident to this had led to ALL flights in Southern Ireland require a flight plan. (I also seem to remember being told that there was a public outcry that someone could be left on a mountainside without anyone knowing).
That's not to say it will prevent CFIT accidents, but it might just provide help to someone seriously injured in such an accident who may otherwise die if left longer without help.
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Old 11th Apr 2007, 15:16
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Is that right?
9.5 A pilot is required to file a flight plan:
a) for all flights within controlled airspace, Class A–E, which are conducted in
accordance with IFR;
b) for flights within Class B, C and D airspace conducted in accordance with VFR;
c) when he wishes to receive an air traffic advisory service (Class F airspace);
d) for all flights which will cross a United Kingdom international FIR boundary;
e) for any flight where the destination is more than 40 km from the aerodrome of
departure and the aircraft’s maximum total weight authorised exceeds 5700 kg.
9.6 A pilot is advised to file a flight plan:
a) if his flight involves flying over the sea more than 10 miles from the UK coast or
flying over sparsely populated areas where search and rescue operations would be
difficult; or
b) if he intends to fly into an area in which search and rescue operations are in
progress. The flight plan should include the expected times of entering and leaving
the area and the details must also be passed to the parent ACC. The ACC is to

So the answer would be half right. Though I would think i might be a miss quote.
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Old 11th Apr 2007, 16:01
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ELTs

Is it not a requirement in the UK that aircraft carry an ELT ?..No it isn't. There was supposed to be a requirement coming in on Jan 1st requiring ELTs to be carried if more than 10 mins from land but as far as I can see, the ANO has not yet been ammended to make this law. Even if the ANO had been ammended, it would not have affected this flight as it was mainly over land and the over water bits would have been within 10 mins of the coast.
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Old 11th Apr 2007, 16:29
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STOP

Not commenting in any way on this accident BUT can we stop encouraging yet more regulation!

Everyone knows (or should know) it makes snese to carry an ELT, life jackets, life rafts, inform someone if you are flying over inhospitable terrain etc but:

1. Not everyone wants to fly over water etc - ever. Not everyone wants to have an ELT fitted, but if this is promoted then before we know, it will become mandatory in every G reg aircraft as it is for every N reg aircraft as will an annual test of the equipment.

2. Can we recognise that pilots should be responsible people able to make some sensible decisions about risk and risk assessment. Some pilots will not fly across the north sea without two engines, and that is fine by me, but if we are not careful you will not be able to cross the north sea with one engine period.
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