View Full Version : The Heathrow Shimmy
ImageGear
24th Mar 2007, 20:36
Friday night SLF inbound for 09L from a little Isle to the west, and vectors from the Bovingdon hold, appeared to overstep the 09L localiser abeam Woodley, got it back together, then invited to shimmy onto 09R quite late over Queen Mary's.
Did'nt worry me since I knew what was happening, however a few souls gasped :eek: when the starboard wing dropped quickly towards the pond.
Question: How late would you attempt the shimmy, before you go TOGA
Imagegear
Gonzo
24th Mar 2007, 20:41
From our point of view, if it was a heavy, we'd generally not bother asking if the a/c was inside four miles from touchdown. For A320s, 737s etc maybe 3 miles.
hotmetal
24th Mar 2007, 21:44
I don't think I would switch runways below 1500' on an A320 but there is no rule about it in my company.
It's always a notable thing to see from the ground as well, saw a 27R to 27L sideslip a week or two ago. Presumably caused by the spacing getting too tight. Wonder how many departure slots get suddenly lost by such action, two or three ?
And it's something that maybe will not be possible with mixed mode. Will a go-around will be the only option then.
JW411
26th Mar 2007, 08:12
It is not called a sideslip but a sidestep! A sideslip would be very dramatic indeed on that size of aircraft.
Miserlou
26th Mar 2007, 08:21
As long as one can be stablized at 1000' or 500' according to the company's SOP.
Easier if the other runway is staggered.
TheOddOne
26th Mar 2007, 08:33
The Trident was great at this manoeuvre. I once watched a Trident 3 hack across the maintenance area at an angle of about 45 degrees.
TOO
Few Cloudy
26th Mar 2007, 08:54
Used to be a standard thing at ZRH, with the added complication(s) that:
The RWs did not have thresholds at the same distance and
They were not parallel.
The main reason to sidestep (they called it swingover) was to get a clear run to the parking area and save about 5min taxy time.
Whether you did it or not (provided it was offered) depended to a large extent on not only the vis. but the direction of the sun. There was quite often haze out to the north too, which the tower couldnīt see.
Anyway all those fun and games stopped when someone got a bit too cavalier and pranged a wing on touch down. Shame really.
How to do it:
Be established on speed and config. early
Have it well briefed beforehand (GA might be different etc.)
Be ready for a last minute change (ATC has a few other things going on)
Do it Visually, and be ready visually before the sidestep is made! Don't try to follow at the last minute GP and Loc on some instrument.
Get on the Centreline first and assess Glide after that.
Enjoy!
FC.
Rainboe
26th Mar 2007, 09:06
Life's too short to brief for a runway swap on every approach into LHR! It's essentially a visual manoeuvre only which I've done several times. So:
Autopilot/Flight Directors off
turn straight away, don't overshoot centreline
get on VASIs as soon as possible- forget retuning ILS
get new go-around read to you- if time get new runway in FMS, but not essential
it will be a manual go-around, just like the old days!
curser
26th Mar 2007, 10:14
Quite right FW, just for info, was in ZRH other day and was offered and took the 14-16 swing-over, still fun.
Cold Soak
26th Mar 2007, 10:38
The mandatory go-around at 500RA if not stablised is not just a company SOP requirement, it's a JAR-OPS requirement and probably an FAA requirement too.
Like several here I have had it 'offered' several times in my life and I agree it is worth including in the brief for those places where it is 'likely'. I fear that bringing a new F/O 'with me' on a late unbriefed runway swap is just asking too much of a one-man-band-show! As for 'getting it into the FMS....................':eek:
GS-Alpha
26th Mar 2007, 10:57
You do not actually have to be aligned with the runway centre line at 500ft in order to be in compliance with the stability criteria though.
Rainboe
26th Mar 2007, 14:54
Like several here I have had it 'offered' several times in my life and I agree it is worth including in the brief for those places where it is 'likely'. I fear that bringing a new F/O 'with me' on a late unbriefed runway swap is just asking too much of a one-man-band-show! As for 'getting it into the FMS....................'
Well at airports like LHR, BOS, LAX, SFO, SIN, BKK and JFK where it can occasionally happen, operating regularly to those places, I assure you nobody briefs every time 'just on the off-chance'! You either can handle it or you can't. A good crew can get the new runway into the FMS- I did most times, but it doesn't matter. As for a new F/O, it's a case of 'watch this!'. It's down to your experience- don't worry if you can't hack it- just don't take the offer! Go around instead.
Airbrake
26th Mar 2007, 16:43
Hi Rainboe.
Thanks for your top tips on side stepping late in the approach. Next time things get a bit tight I will shout "watch this" and time permitting put my boots and spurs on!
Two's in
26th Mar 2007, 17:43
It seems to be a regular occurence at KMCO, where the difference between 17R and 17L is a significant taxi distance. All triggered by how fast the other guy vacates, so definitely an opportunity basis rather than a plan. Mind you, predominately blue sky helps a lot I suppose.
CheekyVisual
26th Mar 2007, 17:53
On a lighter note. The first time I ever came across this was late on in approach somewhere in Germany. To get the full effect you must say this in a very strong German accent.
"Ah British do you swing ?"
Caused amusement at the time.
Two's in
26th Mar 2007, 19:54
Most impressive one I saw was a US Airways 737 coming into Washington National a few years ago, finals to a late vacating aicraft on Rwy 1, switched at about 500' to Rwy 33, all done over the river so no encroachment over DC (this was pre-9/11), but was still getting the bank off over the keys. Must have been ex-Navy driver.
Few Cloudy
27th Mar 2007, 08:58
Cheeky Visual - the right name for the post!
The best exponent of this manoever was a lady pilot called Katherin Fisch, which was probably the origin - not of the swing - but the song: "I wish I could shimmy like my sister Kate".
FC.
MrBernoulli
27th Mar 2007, 10:23
BOAC,
"As for 'getting it into the FMS....................':eek:"
I assume you meant that tongue in cheek- ish?
Having come from a world of large multi-engine jets, but little of the fancy gadgetry of a modern airliner, I now tend to find there is an infernal preoccupation with that blasted FMS, at what I consider the most inoppurtune moments. In a sidestep manouevre of the nature discussed here you should be visual with both runways - sod the FMS (;) ), look out the window and land the bloody thing visually! Thats what the windows are for. Just because the runway doesn't appear on the ND or the magenta string doesn't go to my landing concrete does not mean we will disappear in to the Bermuda Triangle!:ok:
Rainboe
27th Mar 2007, 11:23
Let's review the quote properly:
...get new go-around read to you- if time get new runway in FMS, but not essential
It gives you an LNAV go-around, so there are advantages if there is time! A switched on crew who are happy with what they are doing, given an early switch- no problem. If you are not happy, don't do it! If you are really not happy, don't accept the switch! Let's not make a major discussion point of something that takes not much over 5 seconds to a proficient, experienced operator! The advantage? On the 747-400, it also autotunes the new ILS for you, as well as giving you the correct new go-around.
Danny
27th Mar 2007, 12:08
Rainboe, let's not forget that not all FMS's are equal and even if they are, not all airlines pay for the full database. Until I flew the B744, I cannot remember ever seeing the missed approach being available in the FMC on the B737, B757 and B767's I flew previously. Also, the RAD/NAV option didn't have the pre-select option on the other Boeing models I flew.
At airports where there is a possibility of a runway change, at least the ILS can be pre-selected. As mentioned, just takes 2 seconds to enter if you are reasonably proficient with the FMC and ATC are not of the type who incessantly bombard you with new instructions at the most critical moments.
Of course, what can be even more exciting is the 'breakout' manoeuvre when conducting a PRM/SOIA. Now that is a fully manual manoeuvre... and in close proximity to another a/c. Never flown one for real and haven't seen a sim that can reproduce it with the other a/c. (PRM/SOIA for those not familiar with the term is Precision Runway Monitored/Simultaneous Offset Instrument Approach)
doubledolphins
27th Mar 2007, 16:55
Did it at at 500' in a Super Shed once. Added about 2 mins to the flying time!
ImageGear
29th Mar 2007, 12:23
That would be the F100 Super Shed then, some sled.
Seriously, it would seem that the rules for accepting the "swing" are not cast in concrete, but rather down to pilot discretion on the day.
Some in the glasshouse will not offer nearer than 4 miles but others apparently do - I can understand an emergency warranting a late swing, but merely for traffic ? Is this a potential issue arising ?
Imagegear
doubledolphins
29th Mar 2007, 12:55
Nah, SD360 sorry. (SD 330, was just a shed.) I'll go away now because I'm
not realy helping here.:oh:
ps. for Danny, we have them on the 757/767 fleet now, but then I'm new on it. So can't say how long they have been there.
mutley320
29th Mar 2007, 13:11
Just a question. If you dont update "the box" as to the new runway, will the EGPWS get upset and think your landing in a field.
Just want to avoid any paperwork explaining. I'm thinking modern Airbus/Boeings.Thanks.
Gipsy Queen
31st Mar 2007, 17:52
Agreed, Mr Bernoulli,
The problem is that gazing out of windows often is associated with day-dreaming. Can't look outside and punch buttons at the same time you know and these days it seems that punching buttons is more important.
There are occasions when it is best to "forget the book and fly the plane" but these decisions are not always easily explained afterwards and to those for whom it is convenient to take refuge in the "book".