what is the ceiling requirement to radar vectoring for visual approach?

[jungping]

I know the Doc 4444 says "the reported ceiling is above the minimum altitude applicable to radar vectoring." But I don't know what it means.

I think "the minimum altitude applicable to radar vectoring" means MVA, but MVA of where? Around the destination airport? Or the location of the aircraft concerned?

Please help.

[chevvron]

The airport should publish a 'Radar Minimum Altitude Chart' which shows radar controllers the lowest altitude they can descend traffic to and provide radar vectors. It is drawn so that the minimum clearance of 1000ft above terrain is maintained until the aircraft commences final approach. In the UK, the 'standard' chart is an oval shape 8 nm from either edge of the runway and 13nm from the runway thresholds, but this can vary according to adjacent airfields and the number of runways available. Outside the boundary of the oval, MSA (Minimum Sector Altitude) applies.

[jungping]

what about an aircraft is at 40 nm from airport and you want to vector her for visual approach? do you mean we should then use Minimum Vector Altitude instead as the ceiling requirement?

[airac]

The extract below from MATS pt 1 sums it up very well

12 Visual Approach
12.1 To expedite traffic at any time, IFR flights may be authorised to execute visual
approaches if the pilot reports that he can maintain visual reference to the surface and
a) the reported cloud ceiling is not below the initial approach level; or
b) the pilot reports at any time after commencing the approach procedure that the
visibility will permit a visual approach and landing, and a reasonable assurance
exists that this can be accomplished.
12.2 Standard separation shall be effected between such aircraft and other IFR and/or
SVFR aircraft.
12.3 Controllers shall exercise caution in initiating a visual approach when there is reason
to believe that the flight crew concerned is not familiar with the aerodrome and its
surrounding terrain.

[jungping]

i know the paragraph about "visual approach." it is about the same as in the doc 4444.
but what i asked is about controller initiates "vectoring for visual approach." doc 4444 has another paragraph for this issue. i have quoted some of the content in my first posting.
they are two different issues.

[airac]

you state in your first post
the reported ceiling is above the minimum altitude applicable to radar vectoring." But I don't know what it means.

The ceiling ,being the cloud (more than one half of the sky ) , must be higher than the minimum radar vectoring level.

For example RVA 1900 ft cloud ceiling 1500 ft then no visual approach is possible ,until the A/C is below 1500ft i.e when A/C is probably on final approach.
RVA 1900 ft cloud ceiling 2000ft then visual approach possible ,however the A/C must be below 2000ft before it can be cleared for a visual approach .

Does that clarify your problem

[jungping]

For example RVA 1900 ft cloud ceiling 1500 ft then no visual approach is possible ,until the A/C is below 1500ft i.e when A/C is probably on final approach. RVA 1900 ft cloud ceiling 2000ft then visual approach possible ,however the A/C must be below 2000ft before it can be cleared for a visual approach .Does that clarify your problem
............................................................ ...
Not Really.
Where's RVA? Position of the aircraft or vicinity of the airport?
And why is that 'the A/C must be below 2000ft before it can be cleared for a visual approach.'
Suppose an aircraft is 40 nm from the airport, her position's RVA is 6000 ft, and the airport's RVA is 2500 ft, ceiling (of the airport) is 3000 ft, can I initiate vectoring the aircraft for visual approach?

[VirtuallySAD]

OK. Let me try :ugh:

>Not Really.
>Where's RVA? Position of the aircraft or vicinity of the airport?

position of aircraft and intended path from current position to final approach path.

>And why is that 'the A/C must be below 2000ft before it can be cleared for >a visual approach.'

Only applies if ceiling is 2000ft.

>Suppose an aircraft is 40 nm from the airport, her position's RVA is 6000 ft, >and the airport's RVA is 2500 ft, ceiling (of the airport) is 3000 ft, can I >initiate vectoring the aircraft for visual approach?

Depends. In your example, at some point the RVA will have to step down from 6000ft to 2500ft. Therefore you would not be able to clear the aircraft below 6000ft until that point. Once the aircraft is inside the 2500ft RVA and below 3000ft (with a 3000ft ceiling) it can be given a clearance for a visual approach.

[airac]

the RVA Radar vectoring Area is the area refered to by Chevron ie the area around an airfield which ensures minimum safe clearance from obstructions on the ground .

can I initiate vectoring the aircraft for visual approach?


You would not initiate a visual approach ,The pilot makes the initial request for a Visual approach, it is then approved provided the criteria mentioned before can be met.
If the A/c is at 6000ft and cloud ceiling is at 3000ft the criteria has not been met so approval would not be given based on para a), however the conditions mentioned in para b) may apply, in which case the visual approach could be approved .
Does that help ?

[jungping]

VirtuallySAD, your reply surely clears a thing or two to my problem, thanks
.But, in your reply, you always say under those circumstances you can give visual approach clearance. Whereas I think it is under those circumstances you can initiate radar vectoring for visual approach. It's not the same thing, is it?
As for giving visual approach clearance, I quote airac's post as follow:
The extract below from MATS pt 1 sums it up very well
12 Visual Approach
12.1 To expedite traffic at any time, IFR flights may be authorised to execute visualapproaches if the pilot reports that he can maintain visual reference to the surface anda) the reported cloud ceiling is not below the initial approach level; orb) the pilot reports at any time after commencing the approach procedure that thevisibility will permit a visual approach and landing, and a reasonable assuranceexists that this can be accomplished.
12.2 Standard separation shall be effected between such aircraft and other IFR and/orSVFR aircraft.
12.3 Controllers shall exercise caution in initiating a visual approach when there is reasonto believe that the flight crew concerned is not familiar with the aerodrome and itssurrounding terrain.

[VirtuallySAD]

I can see you point now, not sure if others have picked up on this. At some point during the arrival phase of the flight, ATC will issue details of the expected arrival e.g. "expect vectoring for ILS 26L" or in this case "expect vectoring for visual approach 26L". Now that would probably issued whilst the aircraft is still on own nav along the STAR route and still IMC. The ATC could then vector off the STAR still IMC above RVA, above Ceiling but has initiated vectoring for a visual approach. The ATC might continue to vector as if for the ILS but once below ceiling and visual with the runway the visual approach actually starts.

[jungping]

If the A/c is at 6000ft and cloud ceiling is at 3000ft the criteria has not been met so approval would not be given based on para a)
a) the reported cloud ceiling is not below the initial approach level;
I think 'the initial approach level' means the level at initial approach fix (IAF) of an instument approach procedure (e.g. ILS approach) ), not the level of the A/C concerned. Am I wrong?

[jungping]

The ATC could then vector off the STAR still IMC above RVA, above Ceiling but has initiated vectoring for a visual approach.
I think it should be 'The ATC could then vector off the STAR still IMC above RVA, below Ceiling but has initiated vectoring for a visual approach.'

[airac]

I think you are getting very confused as to what you can do.
When an A/c is released to me at an Aerodrome I allocate a level for the hold / beacon . This is the initial approach level.

I repeat , The pilot must initiate the request for a visual approach , since it is only the pilot that can establish whether he can fulfil the criteria. ( a controller can, knowing what the weather conditions are, then allow the visual or not ) there might even be traffic reasons to refuse a visual approach , try asking for one at EGLL when its busy.

Finally a question for you ,If you are "vectoring" an A/C for a visual approach, how can you guarantee that the pilot is going to be able to satisfy the previously mentioned criteria ? How far do you vector the A/c before he says he can’t maintain contact with the surface?

Please try to understand before one of us retires.:ugh:

[jungping]

below is the full text of vectoring for visual approach from Doc4444.
8.9.5.1 The radar controller may initiate radar vectoring of an aircraft for visual approach provided the reported ceiling is above the minimum altitude applicable to radar vectoring and meteorological conditions are such that, with reasonable assurance, a visual approach and landing can be completed.
8.9.5.2 Clearance for visual approach shall be issued only after the pilot has reported the aerodrome or the preceding aircraft in sight, at which time radar vectoring would normally be terminated.

[jungping]

Finally a question for you ,If you are "vectoring" an A/C for a visual approach, how can you guarantee that the pilot is going to be able to satisfy the previously mentioned criteria ? How far do you vector the A/c before he says he can’t maintain contact with the surface?
If the pilot can't see the airport at least 10 nm away, I simply vector the aircraft for some instrument approach.

[airac]

Jungping, Ithink your last reply shows how little you actually know .

Vectoring an A/C for a visual approach then if the pilot does not get the airfield in sight ,"just vector the a/c for some instrument approach."

The pilot is going to love you he will obviously be sitting there, with various approach plates, waiting for you to decide which one he is going to have to brief his first officer for .
Dont think so .

[jungping]

In ATIS, we usually put in a phrase 'expect ILS or visual approach', if the weather meets the visual approach criteria.So, some instrument approach is generally ILS, unless the pilot requests otherwise. And the pilot may brief his first officer ILS approach precedure beforehand, if he feels he might not be able to get the airfield in sight, or, he may simply request an ILS approach anytime.

[Scott Voigt]

In the US you must have a ceiling of 500 feet above the published minimum instrument altitude to be vectored for the visual, however for clearing of a visual approach it must just be VFR...

regards

Scott

[Say Again, Over!]

airac,

As jungping mentionned, the ATIS usually gives the instrument approach in use and that's the one the crew will brief. Opting to try for a visual approach doesn't undo that briefing. If the airport cannot be acquired visually by the crew, vectoring then continues for the advertised instrument approach.

Furthermore, let's look at Doc4444:

8.9.5.1 The radar controller may initiate radar vectoring of an aircraft for visual approach provided the reported ceiling is above the minimum altitude applicable to radar vectoring and meteorological conditions are such that, with reasonable assurance, a visual approach and landing can be completed.
8.9.5.2 Clearance for visual approach shall be issued only after the pilot has reported the aerodrome or the preceding aircraft in sight, at which time radar vectoring would normally be terminated.

What this says is the same as in Canada, where I work. If an aircraft at 6,000 reports the airport in sight through a 3,000 foot broken ceiling of 5 octa, then the visual approach can be approved provided the reported ceiling is above RVA.

Disclaimer. Those are the rules applied in Canada. There may obviously be other articles in the UK with which I'm not familiar that could invalidate my statement.

Cheers,

SAO

[jungping]

What this says is the same as in Canada, where I work. If an aircraft at 6,000 reports the airport in sight through a 3,000 foot broken ceiling of 5 octa, then the visual approach can be approved provided the reported ceiling is above RVA.
You see, that's what bothers me. In your reply, I guess the term 'RVA' means radar vector altitude around the vicinity of the airport, not the radar vector altitude at the position of the aicraft. I just want to know which one is correct.

[jungping]

In the US you must have a ceiling of 500 feet above the published minimum instrument altitude to be vectored for the visual, however for clearing of a visual approach it must just be VFR...

I have two questions: 1.It's VFR or VMC? 2.Where's minimum instrument altitude? Around the airport or at the position of the aircraft?

[vector4fun]

I have two questions: 1.It's VFR or VMC? 2.Where's minimum instrument altitude? Around the airport or at the position of the aircraft?
Weather conditions have to be VMC. (1000x3) to clear an aircraft for a visual approach.
In order to initiate a vector for a visual approach:
FAA 7110.65 7-4-2. VECTORS FOR VISUAL APPROACH
A vector for a visual approach may be initiated if the reported ceiling at the airport of intended landing is at least 500 feet above the MVA/MIA and the visibility is 3 miles or greater. At airports without weather reporting service there must be reasonable assurance (e.g. area weather reports, PIREPs, etc.) that descent and flight to the airport can be made visually, and the pilot must be informed that weather information is not available.

It seems to me the only MIA/MVAs that matter are those within the immediate vicinity of the airport, from which area a visual descent and landing can/will be made. The MIA 60 or 100 miles from the airport, where the crew learns via ATIS that visual approaches are being used seems to matter not.
Now, we can parse this into a hundred different scenarios, such as the MVA 5 miles west of the airport is 8000', but the MVA 5 miles east of the airport is 5000', or some such, and the airport elevation is 4000', while the reported ceiling is 2000'; and squabble about whether a Visual Approach is appropriate and legal. But this is still one of those areas where the lawyers haven't written a whole chapter yet to cover every possible airspace, airport and weather combination, and a little judgement from the ATC staff and flight crew is still required.

[Say Again, Over!]

jungping,

I understand what you're asking now. The ceiling restriction is there to ensure that it is possible to vector an aircraft to a point where it can operate VFR, that is 500 feet below cloud. Therefore, I would take it as the lowest altitude around the airport where you as an approach controler can vector an aircraft (more than likely excluding the tower control zone, if the MVA is different).

A little bit of judgement has to be used in a case where, for example, the MVA is 2000 south of an aerodrome and 4000 north of it. The airport sits at 300 feet ASL.

In this case, if a visual approach was the only way to get in to this airport, you would need a ceiling of 2200 feet to be able to approve it. The reasoning being that you'll bring the aircraft south of the airport where it will be able to descend 500 feet below cloud
and continue visually.

Now, what if the aircraft is still 5 miles north of the airport at 4000 and sees the airport? Opinions vary by country I suppose but in me book, if he has the airport visual, the visual approach is approved. There are instances, where cloud cover isn't uniform. There are times when weather improvers dramatically between METARs. It could be 0155Z and the 0200Z METAR will show no ceiling...

I hope this helps clear it up. Where do you work?

SAO

[airac]

:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[Say Again, Over!]

Obviously, someone thinks he knows better.

Where do you so artfully move tin, airac? Where does your superior knowledge come from? We'd all like to know. :} :bored:

SAO

[airac]

The UK , procedures for visual approach as laid down in MATS pt one .
Original question being about the explanation of the word "ceiling " surely anyone practicing the black art of ATC should not need an explanation.:confused:
I wouldnt say I have superior knowledge but some of the procedures described by others do not appear to be based on sound principles. hence :ugh:

Sorry if you do not agree.

[Say Again, Over!]

airac,

No need to be sorry. I suppose I might have hijacked the thread and I might also be guilty of not communicating my idea correctly.

I simply tried to describe the application of visual approaches in CANADA as I thought the wordings were reasonably similar.

Cheers,

SAO

ATC a black art? I like it! :cool: or should it be :suspect:

[jungping]

I asked a simple question, and I anticipated a simple answer. But it seems getting more and more complicated.

Probably it's all my fault. Maybe I didin't express myself well. I'm from Taiwan. (You know Taiwan? Southeast of China, southwest of Japan, north of Phillipine?) So, you see, I'm not a native english speaker. Were you having a hard time reading my writing, forgive me. But I'll try to express my question one more time.

In my country, our present ATC manual is mainly adopted from FAA 7110.65. But now we are going to change it to follow ICAO Doc4444 standard. There are lots of differences between them. my question is just one of the differences.

But, first , I want to clear some things.
1.No, I'm not asking the meaning of ceiling. I know it very well. I'm asking what the ceiling requirement is to initiate radar vectoring for visual approach.
2.No, we don't have a 'Radar Minimum Altitude Chart.' But we do have a Minimum vectoring altitude (MVA) map on radar scope. The Minimum vectoring altitude map covers 60 nm, not just 8 or 13 nm. And we don't use MSA (Minimum Sector Altitude) at all, although we have it. And we don't use the term RVA. But I guess MVA and RVA virtually have the same meaning. Maybe I'm wrong.
3.As I said before, I'm not a native english speaker, so I'm afraid that I misunderstand that specific article about radar vectoring for visual approach. And that's why I'm asking you guys here.

OK, now I'll try to rephrase my question again. Hope it's more clear this time.

Suppose an aircraft is 40 nm from the destination airport. The MVA of the aircraft's position is 6000ft. The MVA at the airport is 2500ft. Then, what will be the ceiling requiremet for a controller to initiate radar vectoring the aircraft for visual approach? It's 6500, 6000, 3000, or 2500ft? Or something else? And why? According to which article?

According to our present ATC manual, it's 2500+500=3000. This is the same as what Scott Voigt said.(Because both come from 7110.65)But according to our will-be ATC manual, I was taught it's 6000. That is a tremendous change. If the ceiling is 3000ft, we can initiate radar vectoring the aircraft for visual approach now, but we can not in the future.

I feel it very strange. And I am suspicious that we misinterpret the meaning of that paragraph. And that's why I'm asking this question here.