what is the ceiling requirement to radar vectoring for visual approach?
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what is the ceiling requirement to radar vectoring for visual approach?
I know the Doc 4444 says "the reported ceiling is above the minimum altitude applicable to radar vectoring." But I don't know what it means.
I think "the minimum altitude applicable to radar vectoring" means MVA, but MVA of where? Around the destination airport? Or the location of the aircraft concerned?
Please help.
I think "the minimum altitude applicable to radar vectoring" means MVA, but MVA of where? Around the destination airport? Or the location of the aircraft concerned?
Please help.
The airport should publish a 'Radar Minimum Altitude Chart' which shows radar controllers the lowest altitude they can descend traffic to and provide radar vectors. It is drawn so that the minimum clearance of 1000ft above terrain is maintained until the aircraft commences final approach. In the UK, the 'standard' chart is an oval shape 8 nm from either edge of the runway and 13nm from the runway thresholds, but this can vary according to adjacent airfields and the number of runways available. Outside the boundary of the oval, MSA (Minimum Sector Altitude) applies.
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what about an aircraft is at 40 nm from airport and you want to vector her for visual approach? do you mean we should then use Minimum Vector Altitude instead as the ceiling requirement?
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The extract below from MATS pt 1 sums it up very well
12 Visual Approach
12.1 To expedite traffic at any time, IFR flights may be authorised to execute visual
approaches if the pilot reports that he can maintain visual reference to the surface and
a) the reported cloud ceiling is not below the initial approach level; or
b) the pilot reports at any time after commencing the approach procedure that the
visibility will permit a visual approach and landing, and a reasonable assurance
exists that this can be accomplished.
12.2 Standard separation shall be effected between such aircraft and other IFR and/or
SVFR aircraft.
12.3 Controllers shall exercise caution in initiating a visual approach when there is reason
to believe that the flight crew concerned is not familiar with the aerodrome and its
surrounding terrain.
12 Visual Approach
12.1 To expedite traffic at any time, IFR flights may be authorised to execute visual
approaches if the pilot reports that he can maintain visual reference to the surface and
a) the reported cloud ceiling is not below the initial approach level; or
b) the pilot reports at any time after commencing the approach procedure that the
visibility will permit a visual approach and landing, and a reasonable assurance
exists that this can be accomplished.
12.2 Standard separation shall be effected between such aircraft and other IFR and/or
SVFR aircraft.
12.3 Controllers shall exercise caution in initiating a visual approach when there is reason
to believe that the flight crew concerned is not familiar with the aerodrome and its
surrounding terrain.
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i know the paragraph about "visual approach." it is about the same as in the doc 4444.
but what i asked is about controller initiates "vectoring for visual approach." doc 4444 has another paragraph for this issue. i have quoted some of the content in my first posting.
they are two different issues.
but what i asked is about controller initiates "vectoring for visual approach." doc 4444 has another paragraph for this issue. i have quoted some of the content in my first posting.
they are two different issues.
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you state in your first post
the reported ceiling is above the minimum altitude applicable to radar vectoring." But I don't know what it means.
The ceiling ,being the cloud (more than one half of the sky ) , must be higher than the minimum radar vectoring level.
For example RVA 1900 ft cloud ceiling 1500 ft then no visual approach is possible ,until the A/C is below 1500ft i.e when A/C is probably on final approach.
RVA 1900 ft cloud ceiling 2000ft then visual approach possible ,however the A/C must be below 2000ft before it can be cleared for a visual approach .
Does that clarify your problem
the reported ceiling is above the minimum altitude applicable to radar vectoring." But I don't know what it means.
The ceiling ,being the cloud (more than one half of the sky ) , must be higher than the minimum radar vectoring level.
For example RVA 1900 ft cloud ceiling 1500 ft then no visual approach is possible ,until the A/C is below 1500ft i.e when A/C is probably on final approach.
RVA 1900 ft cloud ceiling 2000ft then visual approach possible ,however the A/C must be below 2000ft before it can be cleared for a visual approach .
Does that clarify your problem
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For example RVA 1900 ft cloud ceiling 1500 ft then no visual approach is possible ,until the A/C is below 1500ft i.e when A/C is probably on final approach. RVA 1900 ft cloud ceiling 2000ft then visual approach possible ,however the A/C must be below 2000ft before it can be cleared for a visual approach .Does that clarify your problem
............................................................ ...
Not Really.
Where's RVA? Position of the aircraft or vicinity of the airport?
And why is that 'the A/C must be below 2000ft before it can be cleared for a visual approach.'
Suppose an aircraft is 40 nm from the airport, her position's RVA is 6000 ft, and the airport's RVA is 2500 ft, ceiling (of the airport) is 3000 ft, can I initiate vectoring the aircraft for visual approach?
............................................................ ...
Not Really.
Where's RVA? Position of the aircraft or vicinity of the airport?
And why is that 'the A/C must be below 2000ft before it can be cleared for a visual approach.'
Suppose an aircraft is 40 nm from the airport, her position's RVA is 6000 ft, and the airport's RVA is 2500 ft, ceiling (of the airport) is 3000 ft, can I initiate vectoring the aircraft for visual approach?
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OK. Let me try 
>Not Really.
>Where's RVA? Position of the aircraft or vicinity of the airport?
position of aircraft and intended path from current position to final approach path.
>And why is that 'the A/C must be below 2000ft before it can be cleared for >a visual approach.'
Only applies if ceiling is 2000ft.
>Suppose an aircraft is 40 nm from the airport, her position's RVA is 6000 ft, >and the airport's RVA is 2500 ft, ceiling (of the airport) is 3000 ft, can I >initiate vectoring the aircraft for visual approach?
Depends. In your example, at some point the RVA will have to step down from 6000ft to 2500ft. Therefore you would not be able to clear the aircraft below 6000ft until that point. Once the aircraft is inside the 2500ft RVA and below 3000ft (with a 3000ft ceiling) it can be given a clearance for a visual approach.
>Not Really.
>Where's RVA? Position of the aircraft or vicinity of the airport?
position of aircraft and intended path from current position to final approach path.
>And why is that 'the A/C must be below 2000ft before it can be cleared for >a visual approach.'
Only applies if ceiling is 2000ft.
>Suppose an aircraft is 40 nm from the airport, her position's RVA is 6000 ft, >and the airport's RVA is 2500 ft, ceiling (of the airport) is 3000 ft, can I >initiate vectoring the aircraft for visual approach?
Depends. In your example, at some point the RVA will have to step down from 6000ft to 2500ft. Therefore you would not be able to clear the aircraft below 6000ft until that point. Once the aircraft is inside the 2500ft RVA and below 3000ft (with a 3000ft ceiling) it can be given a clearance for a visual approach.
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the RVA Radar vectoring Area is the area refered to by Chevron ie the area around an airfield which ensures minimum safe clearance from obstructions on the ground .
can I initiate vectoring the aircraft for visual approach?
You would not initiate a visual approach ,The pilot makes the initial request for a Visual approach, it is then approved provided the criteria mentioned before can be met.
If the A/c is at 6000ft and cloud ceiling is at 3000ft the criteria has not been met so approval would not be given based on para a), however the conditions mentioned in para b) may apply, in which case the visual approach could be approved .
Does that help ?
can I initiate vectoring the aircraft for visual approach?
You would not initiate a visual approach ,The pilot makes the initial request for a Visual approach, it is then approved provided the criteria mentioned before can be met.
If the A/c is at 6000ft and cloud ceiling is at 3000ft the criteria has not been met so approval would not be given based on para a), however the conditions mentioned in para b) may apply, in which case the visual approach could be approved .
Does that help ?
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VirtuallySAD, your reply surely clears a thing or two to my problem, thanks
.But, in your reply, you always say under those circumstances you can give visual approach clearance. Whereas I think it is under those circumstances you can initiate radar vectoring for visual approach. It's not the same thing, is it?
As for giving visual approach clearance, I quote airac's post as follow:
The extract below from MATS pt 1 sums it up very well
12 Visual Approach
12.1 To expedite traffic at any time, IFR flights may be authorised to execute visualapproaches if the pilot reports that he can maintain visual reference to the surface anda) the reported cloud ceiling is not below the initial approach level; orb) the pilot reports at any time after commencing the approach procedure that thevisibility will permit a visual approach and landing, and a reasonable assuranceexists that this can be accomplished.
12.2 Standard separation shall be effected between such aircraft and other IFR and/orSVFR aircraft.
12.3 Controllers shall exercise caution in initiating a visual approach when there is reasonto believe that the flight crew concerned is not familiar with the aerodrome and itssurrounding terrain.
.But, in your reply, you always say under those circumstances you can give visual approach clearance. Whereas I think it is under those circumstances you can initiate radar vectoring for visual approach. It's not the same thing, is it?
As for giving visual approach clearance, I quote airac's post as follow:
The extract below from MATS pt 1 sums it up very well
12 Visual Approach
12.1 To expedite traffic at any time, IFR flights may be authorised to execute visualapproaches if the pilot reports that he can maintain visual reference to the surface anda) the reported cloud ceiling is not below the initial approach level; orb) the pilot reports at any time after commencing the approach procedure that thevisibility will permit a visual approach and landing, and a reasonable assuranceexists that this can be accomplished.
12.2 Standard separation shall be effected between such aircraft and other IFR and/orSVFR aircraft.
12.3 Controllers shall exercise caution in initiating a visual approach when there is reasonto believe that the flight crew concerned is not familiar with the aerodrome and itssurrounding terrain.
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I can see you point now, not sure if others have picked up on this. At some point during the arrival phase of the flight, ATC will issue details of the expected arrival e.g. "expect vectoring for ILS 26L" or in this case "expect vectoring for visual approach 26L". Now that would probably issued whilst the aircraft is still on own nav along the STAR route and still IMC. The ATC could then vector off the STAR still IMC above RVA, above Ceiling but has initiated vectoring for a visual approach. The ATC might continue to vector as if for the ILS but once below ceiling and visual with the runway the visual approach actually starts.
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If the A/c is at 6000ft and cloud ceiling is at 3000ft the criteria has not been met so approval would not be given based on para a)
a) the reported cloud ceiling is not below the initial approach level;
I think 'the initial approach level' means the level at initial approach fix (IAF) of an instument approach procedure (e.g. ILS approach) ), not the level of the A/C concerned. Am I wrong?
a) the reported cloud ceiling is not below the initial approach level;
I think 'the initial approach level' means the level at initial approach fix (IAF) of an instument approach procedure (e.g. ILS approach) ), not the level of the A/C concerned. Am I wrong?
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The ATC could then vector off the STAR still IMC above RVA, above Ceiling but has initiated vectoring for a visual approach.
I think it should be 'The ATC could then vector off the STAR still IMC above RVA, below Ceiling but has initiated vectoring for a visual approach.'
I think it should be 'The ATC could then vector off the STAR still IMC above RVA, below Ceiling but has initiated vectoring for a visual approach.'
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I think you are getting very confused as to what you can do.
When an A/c is released to me at an Aerodrome I allocate a level for the hold / beacon . This is the initial approach level.
I repeat , The pilot must initiate the request for a visual approach , since it is only the pilot that can establish whether he can fulfil the criteria. ( a controller can, knowing what the weather conditions are, then allow the visual or not ) there might even be traffic reasons to refuse a visual approach , try asking for one at EGLL when its busy.
Finally a question for you ,If you are "vectoring" an A/C for a visual approach, how can you guarantee that the pilot is going to be able to satisfy the previously mentioned criteria ? How far do you vector the A/c before he says he can’t maintain contact with the surface?
Please try to understand before one of us retires.
When an A/c is released to me at an Aerodrome I allocate a level for the hold / beacon . This is the initial approach level.
I repeat , The pilot must initiate the request for a visual approach , since it is only the pilot that can establish whether he can fulfil the criteria. ( a controller can, knowing what the weather conditions are, then allow the visual or not ) there might even be traffic reasons to refuse a visual approach , try asking for one at EGLL when its busy.
Finally a question for you ,If you are "vectoring" an A/C for a visual approach, how can you guarantee that the pilot is going to be able to satisfy the previously mentioned criteria ? How far do you vector the A/c before he says he can’t maintain contact with the surface?
Please try to understand before one of us retires.
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below is the full text of vectoring for visual approach from Doc4444.
8.9.5.1 The radar controller may initiate radar vectoring of an aircraft for visual approach provided the reported ceiling is above the minimum altitude applicable to radar vectoring and meteorological conditions are such that, with reasonable assurance, a visual approach and landing can be completed.
8.9.5.2 Clearance for visual approach shall be issued only after the pilot has reported the aerodrome or the preceding aircraft in sight, at which time radar vectoring would normally be terminated.
8.9.5.1 The radar controller may initiate radar vectoring of an aircraft for visual approach provided the reported ceiling is above the minimum altitude applicable to radar vectoring and meteorological conditions are such that, with reasonable assurance, a visual approach and landing can be completed.
8.9.5.2 Clearance for visual approach shall be issued only after the pilot has reported the aerodrome or the preceding aircraft in sight, at which time radar vectoring would normally be terminated.
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Finally a question for you ,If you are "vectoring" an A/C for a visual approach, how can you guarantee that the pilot is going to be able to satisfy the previously mentioned criteria ? How far do you vector the A/c before he says he can’t maintain contact with the surface?
If the pilot can't see the airport at least 10 nm away, I simply vector the aircraft for some instrument approach.
If the pilot can't see the airport at least 10 nm away, I simply vector the aircraft for some instrument approach.
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Jungping, Ithink your last reply shows how little you actually know .
Vectoring an A/C for a visual approach then if the pilot does not get the airfield in sight ,"just vector the a/c for some instrument approach."
The pilot is going to love you he will obviously be sitting there, with various approach plates, waiting for you to decide which one he is going to have to brief his first officer for .
Dont think so .
Vectoring an A/C for a visual approach then if the pilot does not get the airfield in sight ,"just vector the a/c for some instrument approach."
The pilot is going to love you he will obviously be sitting there, with various approach plates, waiting for you to decide which one he is going to have to brief his first officer for .
Dont think so .
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In ATIS, we usually put in a phrase 'expect ILS or visual approach', if the weather meets the visual approach criteria.So, some instrument approach is generally ILS, unless the pilot requests otherwise. And the pilot may brief his first officer ILS approach precedure beforehand, if he feels he might not be able to get the airfield in sight, or, he may simply request an ILS approach anytime.
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In the US you must have a ceiling of 500 feet above the published minimum instrument altitude to be vectored for the visual, however for clearing of a visual approach it must just be VFR...
regards
Scott
regards
Scott
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airac,
As jungping mentionned, the ATIS usually gives the instrument approach in use and that's the one the crew will brief. Opting to try for a visual approach doesn't undo that briefing. If the airport cannot be acquired visually by the crew, vectoring then continues for the advertised instrument approach.
Furthermore, let's look at Doc4444:
8.9.5.1 The radar controller may initiate radar vectoring of an aircraft for visual approach provided the reported ceiling is above the minimum altitude applicable to radar vectoring and meteorological conditions are such that, with reasonable assurance, a visual approach and landing can be completed.
8.9.5.2 Clearance for visual approach shall be issued only after the pilot has reported the aerodrome or the preceding aircraft in sight, at which time radar vectoring would normally be terminated.
What this says is the same as in Canada, where I work. If an aircraft at 6,000 reports the airport in sight through a 3,000 foot broken ceiling of 5 octa, then the visual approach can be approved provided the reported ceiling is above RVA.
Disclaimer. Those are the rules applied in Canada. There may obviously be other articles in the UK with which I'm not familiar that could invalidate my statement.
Cheers,
SAO
As jungping mentionned, the ATIS usually gives the instrument approach in use and that's the one the crew will brief. Opting to try for a visual approach doesn't undo that briefing. If the airport cannot be acquired visually by the crew, vectoring then continues for the advertised instrument approach.
Furthermore, let's look at Doc4444:
8.9.5.1 The radar controller may initiate radar vectoring of an aircraft for visual approach provided the reported ceiling is above the minimum altitude applicable to radar vectoring and meteorological conditions are such that, with reasonable assurance, a visual approach and landing can be completed.
8.9.5.2 Clearance for visual approach shall be issued only after the pilot has reported the aerodrome or the preceding aircraft in sight, at which time radar vectoring would normally be terminated.
What this says is the same as in Canada, where I work. If an aircraft at 6,000 reports the airport in sight through a 3,000 foot broken ceiling of 5 octa, then the visual approach can be approved provided the reported ceiling is above RVA.
Disclaimer. Those are the rules applied in Canada. There may obviously be other articles in the UK with which I'm not familiar that could invalidate my statement.
Cheers,
SAO