Bad Weather Circuits

[jamesivi]

Hello,

I have my PPL Skills test coming up and have totally forgotten how to do a bad weather circuit.
Can anyone explain it to me again to jog my memory, will this be asked in the test?

Many Thanks

[Fuji Abound]

Simply, the object of a bad weather circuit is to enable you to remain visual with the landing runway whilst completing a circuit to land. The assumption is that either the cloudbase is low or the the inflight viz is poor or both.

Therefore the circuit will be flown much lower than usual and you will maintain a position far closer to the active than usual. You must not enter IMC and in "real" conditions will be adjusting what you do to avoid doing so. In reality how low and how close you keep the circuit will depend on the conditions on the day and how comfortable you are with the aircraft. When and where you take flaps, undecarriage etc will also vary depending on you and the aircraft but the circuit will happen a very great deal quicker, the turns will involve considerably more bank and final will be very short.

I doubt you will be asked to demonstrate a bad weather circuit but you never know. If you are, 600 feet would be a sensible circuit height, unless told otherwise, setting up for crosswind over the numbers (unless the runway is very long), keeping the runway within your wing downwind and turning base to keep final as short as possible. Dont forget to ask ATC if you can fly a low level circuit (it is for them to grant) or if AG make sure everyone else knows what you are doing.

[S-Works]

Here is a thought..... Why is the bad weather circuit on the PPL skill test when a PPL flying in the type of conditions that would need a bad weather circuit is flying beyond the limits of the licence. Should it not be taught as part of the IMC?

[scooter boy]

totally forgotten how to do a bad weather circuit.

Probably shouldn't be there in the first place as weather mimima would prevent the test being conducted on such a day.

Basic tips:

1.Stay visual
2.Don't hit anything
3.If you are a PPL without IMC or IR learn from the experience and either get an instrument qualification or avoid grotty wx.

:ok:
SB

[FullyFlapped]

Here is a thought..... Why is the bad weather circuit on the PPL skill test when a PPL flying in the type of conditions that would need a bad weather circuit is flying beyond the limits of the licence.
Never been caught out by the wx, Bose ? Or not know of someone who has ?

You're right, of course, but we train for all sorts of situations that we never want to run into, and I guess that's the point here ...

FF :ok:

[Fuji Abound]

I was trying to think of circumstances where the bad weather circuit is useful with the implicit assumption that you are not IR rated.

If you fly enough there are going to be occasions where the weather at your destination is beginning to worsen. So perhaps one scenario is staying below an overcast knowing you have a good escape route behind, but with the bad weather circuit enabling you to get to your destination. Another is with coastal strips. I can recall a few trips to Maypole when the Ha was coming in off the estuary and normal finals would have put me well and truly in the soup.

All that said you are often better not flying the whole circuit. If you are "sneeking" in under a low cloud base and competent enough to be doing so, then a join straight into downwind or even on one of the base legs is often more attractive - a sort of abbreviated bad weather circuit I suppose.

Of course some will say it is a recipe to get you into jail and some out of jail!

Finally, always remember when I had just learnt to fly - my then meantor, suggested on one particular day we have a look at the weather and see if a short fly in the local area was possible. Cloudbase looked horrible to me and I wouldnt have contemplated aviating. Up we went, and it was horrible in all directions. My meantor with IR, ATPL, ex RAF the full works wasnt going to fly on instruments that day. He was straight into a low level circuit, reamaining VMC of course the whole time, and back into land. Scarred me to death at the time, but just run of the mill for him :) .

[S-Works]

FF, It was a devils advocate question not a reason to get into a fight.

It just occured to me that a bad weather circuit is flown at about 500 feet. So if your PPL without IMC has remained VFR, clear of cloud he has to have been flying VERY low to have remained clear of cloud and need a bad weather circuit. Rule 5 then comes into mind as well.

Getting caught out in that way shows very bad preflight planning? We are talking about the basic VFR PPL holder here not an IMC pilot prepared to accept poor minima.

Thoughts?

[QDMQDMQDM]

Mad to suggest bad weather circuits shouldn't be taught. The other thing which should be taught, but isn't, is precautionary landing with power. Might be a very useful skill one day, because sh*t happens, as we all know. It's much better to be prepared to make a precautionary landing than to be so terrified at the thought that you press on into even worse weather.

[Cusco]

I think precautionary landings with power which I assume you mean off- airfield (otherwise it would just be a normal landing) will never be taught in this nanny state of ours for the same reason that actual spins disappeared from the PPL syllabus: The potential for serious sh*t happening during the event outweighs the potential risk of spinning in the first place. Hence spin awareness only is taught.

The exact parallel to a precaurionary landing with power would equate to a kind of PFL, but maintaining power to a very low level.

Then the Rule 5 brigade hiding in the hedgerows would shop you.

Safe flying

Cusco

[tacpot]

I was asked to perform a bad weather circuit around a farm strip on my License Proficiency Check one year, but the Examiner knew that I knew the field.

[S-Works]

Mad to suggest bad weather circuits shouldn't be taught. The other thing which should be taught, but isn't, is precautionary landing with power. Might be a very useful skill one day, because sh*t happens, as we all know. It's much better to be prepared to make a precautionary landing than to be so terrified at the thought that you press on into even worse weather.#


Not suggesting in anyway that it should not be taught just asking for comments on why it is taught. It just strikes me that teaching people to do bad weather circuits might encourage the less disciplined to think of it as a reason to push on?

[QDMQDMQDM]

Most of the country is covered in perfectly reasonable airstrips for spamcans in the form of pastureland. No point overflying perfectly usable landing areas in your mission to meet destiny in the form of a rock-filled cloud.

The less-disciplined will always find a way to fly into mishap, but that is not an argument not to teach useful procedures. In WW1 they thought parachutes, as we know, would encourage pilots to leave perfectly good aircraft.

[cjhants]

QDM,

agree with your suggestion about precautionary landings being part of the PPL training, and if common sense prevailed we would be able to use unlicensed farmstrips for this practice, rather than just a field. but we know the common stuff will never prevail, and we will not be allowed to practice this potentially life saving skill.

getting back to the original post, one of the best lessons i ever had was a bad weather circuit in snow, with the CFI in the RHS. the short final was at 45 deg to the numbers, with a low turn over the hedge to line up. had to do one in good viz for my test, the examiner just told me where he wanted me to turn, and how high to fly it.

[BackPacker]

I fly from a controlled field, where we have a VFR training circuit at 500 feet (with a very displaced threshold) and the regular circuit is at 1000 and 1500 feet, depending on the arrival route. All three circuits are very tight (downwind to final is one 20/30 deg turn, no base being flown as such) due to noise considerations. Obviously there are no obstacles that violate rule 5 on the training circuit... Having done a lot of these 500 feet circuits really helps if you get caught by the weather. Particularly the day the ATIS reported 1200 few, 1500 overcast, but in reality it was 800 broken. Tail between the legs, low level circuit and back to the coffee... I wrote that one down as "character building" in my logbook.

As others have said, remain in VMC, fly a tight circuit keeping the runway in sight at all times, and be prepared for the fact that everything happens much faster. I try to get as much done on downwind as I can, only needing the last stage of flaps to lose the last five knots or so to Vref on final. Days like that, the circuit is never busy so if you fly it a little slower (2 stage flaps, 70 knots on downwind) than normal, you're not holding up anyone else anyway.

As for the precautionary landing - we did a mock one on my PPL course. You don't actually have to *land* on precautionary landing training. The most important aspect is that you overfly and inspect the potential landing area from an increasingly lower altitude for increasingly smaller obstacles:
- First pass at 500 feet or so to look for power lines, trees and such
- Second pass at 100 feet or so to look for cattle and such
- Third pass at 20 feet or so to look for stones, ruts and such
All these passes are done (in a PA-28) with 1-2 stage flaps and 70-75 knots or so. A speed which is high enough above the stall to allow 30 deg turns, but slow enough that you've got time for the inspection.
- The fourth pass is a landing. We didn't do this, despite the fact that we did the whole sequence at an (uncontrolled) airfield. But you can train the same thing above a farmers field as long as you don't violate rule 5.
Between passes you climb to a sensible altitude, but not necessarily a regular circuit altitude. After all - one of the reasons for a precautionary landing is inclement weather and no suitable diversion close by. Thus, you might not have the luxury of having a normal circuit altitude below the cloudbase.

Best approach, as far as I'm concerned, it just to learn how to be flexible with your circuits. Learn how to do them at 500 feet, learn how to do them at 1500 feet (with a kamikaze turn from downwind to final without gaining speed), learn how to do them fast (90 knots or more) and slow (70 knots or less), tight (500 meter or less from the runway centerline) and wide (where the base leg is longer than downwind. Take a look at the EHTX summer weekend approach procedures for an example). Learn how to do an orbit on downwind for separation with a 737 on final. Learn how to do direct base or direct final entries. Learn to fly the whole circuit with 2 stage flaps, at the bottom or even the wrong side of the power curve, and learn how to do flapless landings and short-field landings. Learn how to approach and hold off with the power on, floating above the runway just above the stall speed, in ground effect, with a crosswind, in case the tower asks you to "expedite vacating, traffic is a 737 on short final behind you" and the first (high speed) exit is still a kilometer away. With all these tricks in your arsenal you should be able to adjust your circuit safely to all sorts of conditions, regardless of whether they are weather-related, traffic-related or otherwise.

And mind the classical turn-to-final stall... Even in inclement weather, it's better to throw away the approach if you're likely to get into the stall there, than to press on and stall/spin in a situation where you have no height to recover.

[QDMQDMQDM]

I think the old Flight Briefing for Pilots by Alan Bramson had precautionary landing with power as an exercise. Can anyone remember?

[apruneuk]

Precautionary landing with power is taught in the current PPL syllabus (without actually landing!)

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I find the best method of teaching pilots to be comfortable with short circuits is to teach them one minute touch and goes until it becomes second nature.

Remember this is not brain surgery we are talking about.

[Final 3 Greens]

Agree with Chuck.

But there is a difference between teaching it and examining it on the skills test, IMHO - just like the instrument awareness time in the PPL syllabus.

[eyeinthesky]

Not really something that should be 'practised' on an internet forum, even if it is as highly regarded as PPRUNE.

Go and fly with an instructor, get him/her to refresh your memory and then do a few. It might just save your life one day.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Like any other physical hands feet skill repetition is the best way to burn any activity into your memory bank.

I find that the shorter the circuit the more circuits one can do in a given time frame.

The only real drawback is finding a suitable training area to do short circuits.
Sea planes are a natural for oval short circuits.

And of course best taught outside the PPL lessons. :E

C.E.

[VFE]

The bad WX circuit is taught should a PPL holder unwittingly depart the field into low cloud or poor visibility. Obviously this is something which they should avoid but the reality is that determining cloud base and visibility without a METAR to hand(!) can be difficult for inexperienced pilots. Also, it is another test of the student pilots ability to operate the aircraft in unusual circumstances, similar to the raison d'etre behind the inclusion of advanced turns in the syllabus (for testing pilot skill). So...

Take off and climb straight ahead (oops low cloud/bad viz, etc!) level off at 500' and complete a 180 turn onto reciprocal runway heading until you spot the runway coming back at you. Adopt a close downwind leg and at the end of which complete a 180 turn onto final approach runway heading lowering base leg flap as you turn. Don't forget to make the necessary radio calls but the chances are you're the only nutter up there anyway. ;)

agree with your suggestion about precautionary landings being part of the PPL training, and if common sense prevailed we would be able to use unlicensed farmstrips for this practice, rather than just a field. but we know the common stuff will never prevail, and we will not be allowed to practice this potentially life saving skill.

Not a good idea. Strips frequented by light aircraft should have, at the very least, basic fire cover. Also, it would not be long before popular farmstrips materialised over others leading to the obligatory disgruntled neighbours and an inevitable EFATO disaster. As someone who lives on the approach to a newly made private strip the thought of every tom dick and harry blaring over my back garden practicing PFL's is not a jolly thought. My back garden does not require a mangled PA28 as a new ornament.

VFE.

[Fuji Abound]

It just occured to me that a bad weather circuit is flown at about 500 feet. So if your PPL without IMC has remained VFR, clear of cloud he has to have been flying VERY low to have remained clear of cloud and need a bad weather circuit. Rule 5 then comes into mind as well.

So back to Bose's comment.


I dont think any height "qualifies" as a bad weather circuit - more as I suggested earlier, a bad weather circuit is more simply anything that keeps you clear of cloud. I can think of a few places were the cloud "sits" on top of the surrounding hills. The "normal" wide circuits take you over the higher ground and into IMC - a tight circuit flown sometimes only a tad lower works well avoiding the higher ground. Moreover without splitting hairs 700 feet may be whats needed on the day - but if you have not had experience of doing it before it can seem hard work the first time. These can also be the exact circumstances where there is very broken scud running through the circuit - nothing worse than seeing aircraft occasionally "disappearing" into the scud or flying the usual wide circuit because they cant fly a tighter lower circuit.

Another example - coming out of Biggin today with plenty of CB activity around, a tight circuit avoided the precip whereas a wider more normal circuit would not have done so. So perhaps just a very tight, but not low circuit, should "qualify" as a bad weather circuit if the circumstances call for it.

Bose is right a PPL with IR should not get himself into those conditions in an ideal world - however the reality is different - unfortunately sometimes the planning is poor - pure and simple, and sometimes with experience we might intentionally push the boundaries. A good friend of mine learnt flying flexwings then microlights and finally SEP. He went around the UK numerous times in his microlight. He never did an IMC or IR but he flew superbly in challenging conditions often low level. He would and did push the boundaries of flight in VMC.

Finally, why are a lot of things taught to PPLs. I often wonder what the point of steep turns really is? However, I think a lot of these tecniques combine to significantly improve a pilots aircraft handling. If you are able to fly a bad weather circuit well you can almost certainly handle the aircraft well and that means you are likely to cope with a power on landing or a power off landing well.

[BackPacker]

One of my PPL instructors wanted me to demo the steep turn. So I started doing the HASELL checks first and he cut me off. He wanted me to do a steep turn RIGHT NOW. His reasoning: steep turns are mainly used as a collision avoidance manoeuver and you're not going to do checks then.

He had a point. (Although I suspect he quietly did a Hasell check before asking me to do the steep turn. He wasn't stupid.)

[VFE]

Collision avoidance is one obvious time when steep turns are useful (excuse my droll humour) however it is not the primary reason for the inclusion in the PPL syllabus believe it or not.

VFE.

[QDMQDMQDM]

a tight circuit flown sometimes only a tad lower works well avoiding the higher ground. Moreover without splitting hairs 700 feet may be whats needed on the day - but if you have not had experience of doing it before it can seem hard work the first time.

Without wishing to be superior about this, 700 feet isn't a bad weather circuit. Chuck referred to one minute touch and goes earlier. To do one minute touch and goes requires a circuit height of no more than 150-200 feet. Try it sometime. That's a bad weather circuit, or lower if necessary. My normal circuit height is 500 feet.

Flying light aircraft like airliners not only misses the point, but exposes people to high levels of risk if things go wrong because they haven't had appropriate training.

[VFE]

earlier. To do one minute touch and goes requires a circuit height of no more than 150-200 feet. Try it sometime. That's a bad weather circuit, or lower if necessary

I do hope that was said in jest! :bored:

VFE.

[BackPacker]

Without waiting for QDMs answer, I don't think it was said in jest. I'm already thinking where I could fly to and try that out, and which instructor to take with me. But not many places around where I live that would appreciate me doing that, particularly with other aircraft in the (700') circuit.

And it's an incredible amount in landing fees too!

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Collision avoidance is one obvious time when steep turns are useful (excuse my droll humour) however it is not the primary reason for the inclusion in the PPL syllabus believe it or not.
I was told that the reason that a steep descending turn is taught these days (I think it wasn't when I first did my PPL?) is so that you can get down through a hole in the clouds, having stupidly and illegally got yourself stuck on top of them.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

" Quote:
earlier. To do one minute touch and goes requires a circuit height of no more than 150-200 feet. Try it sometime
I do hope that was said in jest!
VFE. "

Why would it be made in jest?

To do one minute touch and goes you could not go higher than 150 to 200 feet in light training aircraft.

When doing type ratings on the PBY on the water all circuits are done at a maximum of 300 feet, they must start the x/wind turn at 200 feet and level out as they turn down wind.

In that the PBY has 104 foot wing span I let them climb to 300 feet just for comfort.

All circuits are three minutes from touch down to touch down and they do ten circuits and change pilots as we train with two pilots on board doing their ratings.

This burns the aircraft handling attitudes and power / airspeed control into their brain. Last year I had a private pilot who owned a Cirrus doing cuircits in the PBY on the water, at first he freaked out when I told him how we were going to do the circuits. However once he got started he was to busy to be worried and after a couple of lessons he was quite comfortable actually flying an airplane rather than driving it like a 747.

So once again to do repetative circuits of one minute in a light training aircraft 200 feet would be your highest point in the circuit.

I have a Cessna Aerobat Tail Wheel conversion that I bought to teach a course called " High command control " and we have an airport about fifty miles from here that is ideal for this type of training....4000 foot paved runway....all flat ground in the airport vicinity.....no traffic....no houses....

One minute circuits are cross countries once you learn how to fly the thing.

C.E.

[Fuji Abound]

One minute circuits are cross countries once you learn how to fly the thing.

No, I dont agree.

I think the discussion has been what is the purpose of a bad weather circuit and where and when it might be useful to the average PPL.

One minute circuits is not something the average PPL has been trained to do, and moreover if the average PPL is forced to do a 200 feet circuit to remain in VMC (at which point I would suggest even at 200 feet the viz is likely to be pretty bad) something has gone seriously wrong with his pre flight briefing. In fact I would hazard that he should alredy have made a precautionary landing somewhere else!

In short, 200 feet 1 minute circuits great fun like flying up side down along the centre line at 500 feet, but not the territory of the average PLL!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

" In short, 200 feet 1 minute circuits great fun like flying up side down along the centre line at 500 feet, but not the territory of the average PLL! "

Fuji Abound I agree the average PPL generally have not been trained to fly one minute circuits.

My point is I am not a flying school flight instructor and do not structure my training courses in the ab-initio mindset.

My business is advanced flight training and the one minute circuit can be taught in short order to any holder of a PPL, unless said PPL was poorly taught in the first place, in which case it takes a little longer to teach them how to safely do one minute circuits.

I have no desire to get into a argument about something as basic as safe aircraft handling, one minute circuits are not aerobatics.

Did you read my comments about the PPL who was doing three minute circuits in the PBY?

He was an average skills PPL and once I erased the " You can't do that " nonsense from his mind he had no problems with flying the circuit at 300 feet and three minutes.

Anyhow to each his own, I have never had a problem teaching basic aircraft handling skills to any pilot, sure some pick it up quicker than others but eventually they become confident with these basic flying skills.

[VFE]

Exactly what Fuji Abound said!

Not sure why you're clouding the issue here with talk of advanced low level flying over water around Vancouver Island Chuck. Agreed it sounds exciting and fun if properly taught by someone such as yourself, and I can understand how this practice may now be standard for guys like yourself after all these years, however this thread was about bad wx circuits (in the UK) therefore my worry is that the Sunday PPL members at our flying club start cahoonin' around the aerodrome at 3 feet (or whatever it is) until one of them porks it large!

As a very experienced instructor once told me:

"You may be able to drive 6 inches off the curb for 10 miles but you can't keep it up forever".

VFE.

[VFE]

I was told that the reason that a steep descending turn is taught these days (I think it wasn't when I first did my PPL?) is so that you can get down through a hole in the clouds, having stupidly and illegally got yourself stuck on top of them.


Steep level, climbing and descending turns do not come within the range of normal flight procedures and the practice of these manoeuvres serves to improve co-ordination and enhance the pilots ability to handle the aircraft in unusual situations such as the one quoted above, collision avoidance and others such as engine fire in the air...

Another useful practice manoeuvre an instructor can teach is the steep descending turn with flap lowered to simulate a situation where the pilot is inadvertently operating at steep bank angles during the final stages of a spiral type descent whilst positioning for final approach during an actual forced landing without power and/or fire.

VFE.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

" Exactly what Fuji Abound said!
Not sure why you're clouding the issue here with talk of advanced low level flying over water around Vancouver Island Chuck. Agreed it sounds exciting and fun if properly taught by someone such as yourself, and I can understand how this practice may now be standard for guys like yourself after all these years, however this thread was about bad wx circuits (in the UK) therefore my worry is that the Sunday PPL members at our flying club start cahoonin' around the aerodrome at 3 feet (or whatever it is) until one of them porks it large! "

VFE:
Forgive me for having confused the issue.

I was trying to point out that flying a relatively tight circuit in a light airplane should not pose any difficulty for a licensed pilot.

My use of the PBY as an example was only to explain that none of the attitudes are in any way difficult, unless of course the pilot is not capable of performing a normal 30 degree banked turn.

By the way I do not fly commercially in Canada, the last ten or so years I have been flying out of airports such as North Weald and various airports around Europe.

Anyhow I might have known that for me to suggest that the type of flying I described would be taken to mean I was advocating wreckless and dangerous flying.

So I will bow out of this one and just point out that I was not advocating that PPL's teach themselves any of these proceedures.

I guess the bottom line is we all must know our own limits and not stray outside of them.

So once again forgive me for having the expectation that PPL's should be able to perform normal flight manouvers below circuit height.

[QDMQDMQDM]

This is madness: novices arguing with Chuck Ellsworth on a point like this.

Take his word for it. 500-700 feet is not a low level circuit and one minute touch and goes at 150 feet are a really useful exercise for the PPL, even in a PA28 or C152, and may one day save your life.

[avidflyer]

Until not long ago the circuit height at Barton was 800 feet QFE, so bad weather circuits at 500 feet were a bit of a non-event (as long as you avoided the helicopters doing the same!)

[Fuji Abound]

This is madness: novices arguing with Chuck Ellsworth on a point like this.

I think you have missed the point.

The discussion was not about whether a bad weather circuit should be flown at 500 feet or 200 feet, but what is a bad weather circuit and when it is useful for the average PPL.

If you, or for that matter Chuck, or anyone else, thinks the average PPL should be positioning himself over a field at 200 feet in order to remain VMC, or if you think during a skills test or GFT the instructor or examiner is going to ask you to demonstrate a bad weather circuit at 200 feet then .. .. ..

Anyhow I might have known that for me to suggest that the type of flying I described would be taken to mean I was advocating wreckless and dangerous flying.

For what it is worth I never suggested any such thing, and I dont think anyone else has (unless I missed it). However, I can understand that was the reaction you might have expected from some.

Personally I am in favour of any skills that improves a pilot's handling of his aircraft and I love aeros for that reason, spot landing competitions and whatever takes your fancy. That aside I would worry about most PPLs that found themselves having to do a circuit at 200 feet to remain in VMC, but I suppose they have already done well to get to their destination remaining at or below 200 feet to remain visual!

[VFE]

This is madness: novices arguing with Chuck Ellsworth on a point like this.

Take his word for it. 500-700 feet is not a low level circuit and one minute touch and goes at 150 feet are a really useful exercise for the PPL, even in a PA28 or C152, and may one day save your life.

Nobody is arguing with Chuck.

Nobody, as far as I can see, is saying that 500-700 feet is a low level circuit either. What we are saying is this is the height at which bad weather circuits are carried out during PPL training. Any lower is beyond the realms of that particular exercise.

Hope that clears things up a little.

VFE.