Swanwick Skygods

[DC10RealMan]

I thought that I have never underestimated the arrogance, greed, and inflated self-importance of some of the younger atcos at Swanwick, however recent events have prompted me to write this post. For those who know me I am not known for my shy and retiring nature, but even I have sat in incredulous disbelief at some of the crass and pompous statements made about colleagues who happen to be members of the atsa grade within their hearing and without reference to the members of staff concerned as though these colleagues are invisible. There are many issues affecting colleagues who are members of the atsa grade of which ifacts is just one of them and to hear atco colleagues discussing these sensitive issues which involves colleagues livelihoods, mortgages, childrens education, partners, etc with such complete actual or perceived indifference is beyond the pale. These younger atcos are truly "thatchers children" with all the nasty and greedy connotations that that implies. Unfortunately some of these atcos sense of self-importance is not matched by their technical or aeronautical knowledge and/or experience and my only "comfort" is that within a few years as atc technology "improves" the atcos concerned will be following the same path as atsas, flight engineers, navigators, radio operators, and hansom cab drivers. If this rant seems rather nasty and vindictive then I make no apology for that, and for those who know me come and tell me to my face as I am the one who wears the very stylish Hawaiian shirts!
Tony Fallows
Swanwick

[Number2]

Wise words Mr Fallows

I really couldn't believe my ears at Hurn when my fellow studes would make nasty-minded comments about atsas (I think 'strip-monkeys' was one of the more 'pleasant' comments). The total lack of respect for professional colleagues disgusted me - certainly no need for an apology from you. Your comments have just proven that nothing's changed.

[rickypbrown]

Just hope I will never become one of those, or meet any of those people! :{

[millerman]

Tony,
I fully agree with your statements - we unfortunately have the same kind of people here in Maastricht.
However, maybe an internal mail would be of more use rather than a public website. The type of people that you are trying to reach probably don't have the interest or "professionalism" to keep up to date with aviation related topics and therefore will not visit sites like these.
They just take the money and run!
I hope you have some success and that your message does get through:ok:

[DC10RealMan]

Millerman,

I did think about putting it on the nats website, but I think that this attitude/philosophy is actually common throughout most of the atc world. I referred in my original post to younger colleagues but it is also prevalent in some of the older personnel although that is for cultural/historical reasons. It also reminds me of the airline flight deck envirioment in the 1970s and 1980s where certain pilots would treat their colleagues in a quite outrageous manner to hide their own personal or professional inadequacies to the detriment of flight safety. Speaking personally it is a matter of supreme indifference as I have far more important things to do than atc matters and I am always comforted by the fact that when I am retired these people and their egos will be working at 0300 to provide me with my pension.

Tony Fallows
Swanwick

[eastern wiseguy]

Well it looks like TRM has been a success down there then!!. We were having a discussion similar to this in work yesterday.It is not a problem here...but I recall when I first pitched up at Redbrae(younger ATCO's..ask your granddads) there was a shocking us and them attitude,which I put down to the ATCO's being mostly ex military . I am sorry to hear that attitudes appear to have remained constant.:rolleyes:

[Spangly]

I fully agree. ATSAs are what keep our place running smoothly despite, or indeed because of, EFPS. Any flight planning or stand management query, anything non-standard in fact, the first person we turn to is the ATSA. They invariably know how to sort the problem out.

Most of them have been there a long time and have seen all there is to see in ATC, where as many of our controllers, albeit competent and keen, are new, young and a little green behind the ears (and I include myself in that). Long live the ATSA.

[BDiONU]

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.

Eleanor Roosevelt

BD

[Nookie2nite]

...sorry off da subject.....to the Swanwicks.....is Gavin T still there?
ta,
N2n:ok:

[fisbangwollop]

Sorry to hear that attitude still exists south of the border....when I started 30 years ago there was a definate them and us attitude, all the ATSA's young and just out of school, all the ATCO's mainly ex RAF and on their last legs,gradually as time has passed by things have changed....ATCO's now full of the flush of youth and ATSA's going grey and old!! Here north of the border I feel we all work together as a team....yes there will always be the exception, I guess on both sides but to be honest we all work in perfect harmony...I hope.

Mind you at time's I feel management, (at the very top that is) , also helps to keep that "them and us attitude".....for instance why as an ATCO should you benefit from free health care whilst the poor ATSA's have no such help...that to me is class distinction and I ask my management why??? If you want us to work as a team please treat us as equal team members!!

[Boscome]

Tony, not sure I understand,
Is it talking about IFACTS that is insensitive to the ATSAs?

If so are ther any other developments in ATC that they should not discuss?

[DC10RealMan]

Bdionu,

I do not feel inferior, in fact I am a very superior person.

Fallows

[Gonzo]

Mind you at time's I feel management, (at the very top that is) , also helps to keep that "them and us attitude".....for instance why as an ATCO should you benefit from free health care whilst the poor ATSA's have no such help...that to me is class distinction and I ask my management why??? If you want us to work as a team please treat us as equal team members!!Red Herring in this argument.

Why are SATCOs given a company car allowance, and ATCOs and ATSAs not?

Why are ATCO1s given BUPA cover for themselves and their family, while ATCO 2 and 3s will have it only for themselves?

Why are ATCOs paid more than ATSAs?

What was the discussion, DC10? I'm worried now that I've been upsetting all my ATSA colleagues when I talk about EFPS and our new tower with other ATCOs, within their earshot. :eek:

[chiglet]

OK,
I'll bite...
I've met Tony, and I can sympathise with his "comments/concerns", but and there is a big BUT, I do NOT think that this "attitude" is prevelent in/to NATS as a whole......but.....I "could" be wrong.
At Manch, we have a "True" policy of "Open Reporting"... BUT I have heard that this is NOT common throughout the Company...
If not, WHY NOT?
watp,iktch

[DC10RealMan]

Ladies and Gentlemen,
Reference has been made to ifacts and efps and other technlogical "improvements". The actual event is not really relevant. My point is that colleagues who are members of the atsa grade may or may not lose their livelihoods and sitting around the coffee table and hearing atco colleagues say and I quote "that one of the benefits of ifacts is that it will get rid of the atsas" and that "atcos when they have had enough of radar should do the FIS so that they can have a rest" irrespective of the fact that other colleagues livelihoods depend on it is just plain rude. Being "an atsa" is not a religious calling, article of faith, political tract, or way of life it is just an administrative title to specify a group of colleagues doing particular jobs, and it should not be used as an excuse for condescending remarks or insults, particularly from people who are somewhat lacking in personal, educational, and life skills.

Fallows xx

[Vasa]

Hi Tony. Sorry to hear how you feel. For what it's worth, I'm one of the younger ATCOs (depending on how you classify that), and I've never personally heard anyone say anything negative about the ATSA role.

I don't feel that the attitude you talk about is as widely spread as this thread would suggest, but I know how easily generalisations can be made. Just try not to tar all us skygods with the same brush.

Most assistants are top people, and if the time ever came where they weren't there, I for one would miss them.

[Hermano Lobo]

Hola Gringos !
This typifies the Corporate Mentality they are probably trying to brainwash into the employees at your new ATC Centre. It is all too common these days. The British are well practiced at Divide & Rule and this is what they are doing here. I have been shown around a British ATC unit and the dress style of these so-called young ATCO's resembles throwing out time at All Bar One, which is a trendy drinking place for London air-heads, who think they have style when in fact are about ten years out of date, just like your young ATCOs. Señor Fallows, you sound like an average chap but I think your point about Thatcher's children is also out of date, like your ATCOs. They are Blair's Children who probably got their qualifications out of a Corn Flake packet. With regard to the company you work for, I would imagine that in recent years you have suffered an excess of Corporate Bullsh1t in genuine Yankee style. I am also certain that the real aviation person is now in the minority.

[DTY/LKS]

and the dress style of these so-called young ATCO's resembles throwing out time at All Bar One

Been here many times before & everybody knows that what an ATCO wears to work has absolutly no bearing on his ability to control planes.

They are Blair's Children who probably got their qualifications out of a Corn Flake packet.

Don`t talk sh1t. We firstly got the qualifications to allow us to be enrolled at The ATC College, then after the best part of 3-4 years study & training at both the college & the unit, have got the qualifications to control traffic for real on our own and in some cases instruct trainees as an OJTI.

I agree that some trainees think they are "it" when they appear out of the college, but as Vasa said, Don`t tar us all with the same brush.

From a young ATCO.:ok:

[Julian Hensey]

Very interesting post. Just remember the younger ATCO's do have emotions. I am sure I heard in the last Concorde flight from LHR the young ATCO going something like:

"Concorde (blub blub) Line up runway (boo hoo tears) 27 (very tired and emotional moment) Left ...."

He was young and obviously either was doing it for media effect or showed feelings. Yes a young ATCO with feelings ;-)

:{

[Lon More]

Hermano now reel him in gently:rolleyes:
http://thefriendsociety.com/forum/images/smilies/woodnet/fishing.gif

[EGLL19791986]

Somebody must have really upset you Tony!

Some of the nicest people I've ever met have been ATCOs. However this isn't the first time I've heard unfavourable things about some of the less mature controllers at Swanwick! Agree with everything that Hermano said apart from the bit about 'dress style' since that's not really part of what this thread is about.

Talking to a colleague today (a TC ATCO) there seems to be a similiar 'attitude problem' on certain watches in TC. As somebody who is due to be posted to Swanwick sometime this year this thread does nothing to make me feel any better. I've yet to speak to anybody who has a good word to say about the place!

All the best from one of your old colleagues (bet you can't guess who) see you later in the year.

[DC10RealMan]

Ladies and Gentlemen,
Thank you for your both pro and anti comments. I would agree that most of our colleagues are fine people who I am proud to call colleagues and friends. I just want to make it clear that I personally have no axe to grind. I am far too ugly, fat, and sartorially expressive to be bothered about such immature ravings and posturings, in fact I tend to laugh at such nonsense and get on with far more important issues like Flying, Fishing and supporting the World Famous Northwich Victoria F.C. however I do know of younger and more sensitive colleagues who are concerned about their future and who do take offence to some of the things that are said and are too intimidated to defend either themselves or their colleagues and it is on their behalf that I posted my original observations.
Fallows xxx

EGLL19791986 I presume that I owe you money?

[Me Me Me Me]

One of the nicest guys I've ever met in NATS was a young ATCO from Swanwick. However, I've also had the pleasure of dealing with the arrogant, impatient, demanding attitude that does exist within the ranks down there. There is elitism with ATCOs generally in reference to other grades. There also appears to be an extra level of elitism from those at Swanwick.

I'm glad I'm well removed from it. I also know it doesnt apply to all... A little bit of humility and consideration goes a long way.

[1985]

I like atsa's, i want atsa's to stay. I have no desire to do route amendments, pass estimates and all the other things that atsa's do. When the system falls down and blows up on the first day of ifacts that will be because i tried to do something i have no understanding of.

A young atco (sort of)

[Flight Data]

Interesting thread.

I'm going to have to tread carefully, as apparently, my management takes a rather dim view of staff expressing views on Pprune, so apologies in advance for the relative obscurity.

Anyway, during my time as a trainee NATS ATCO many years ago, I and my course were constantly hyped up as being the best of the best, and all that claptrap, which, if it's still being fed to trainees, might explain more than a little of the "We're Sky Gods; ATSAs are lesser beings" attitude in some of the successful trainees when they emerge into daylight.

When I crashed and burned from my course, I was given an ATSA post at a certain major London airport, and when I managed to break out of the confusion my change of status incurred (bear in mind - "You're the best of the best; the top 5% of humanity, and we'll do anything for you" turned to complete indifference and total lack of support from anywhere apart from the operational staff working with me, so very difficult to come to terms with initially), what I found was that yes, the newly-qualified ATCOs sometimes took a little time to adjust down to reality, but the large majority of them did so quite successfully, so I hope things haven't changed as much as is implied in this thread.

What I also found was that there were a very few of the older controllers whose attitude towards ATSAs was nothing short of disgraceful - they treated us pretty much as objects of derision and contempt that they had no option but to put up with. My attitude developed into 'such is life', but what became clear was that although I gave a consistently good service to all, I naturally and willingly did more for those large majority of ATCOs who had a good and mutually-respectful rapport with me as an ATSA, and I know that was very apparent and very much appreciated by the very large majority of ATCOs.

As for being called a strip-monkey, I found that an original title that was both descriptive and amusing, but then perhaps I've got a warped sense of humour.

Since leaving that unit, I went to work in a certain European capital city, and the attitude there was that one particular operational section was staffed by "ATCOs", with "ATSAs" doing the lesser tasks, while the other sections were staffed by "ATSAs" only, with a widely-held opinion (even among those 'managers' not of an ATC background) that "ATSAs" were a lesser species. The ridiculous thing about this is that the "ATSA"-staffed sections actually had a lot of ex-controllers, both civil and military, along with ex-assistants, airline ops managers, dispatchers, and even an ex-airport manager, so although the ATCO/ATSA view is hardly reasonable, it is there, and it didn't look like it'd be going away for the foreseeable future.

Such is life, bearing in mind that not all ATSAs are perfect beings, and the same applies to ATCOs, but a lot of both species are very good at their job and are normal, respectful human beings.

Anyway, this ex-ATSA likes hearing the concern and respect voiced in this thread for the humble ATSA - it's much appreciated: thank you.

FD

[Cuddles]

To count the number of times an ATSA has helped me out of a tight spot, I'd have to take my shoes, socks, and pants off, and TBH I'd probably still have to find some things to count on. Sad to hear that some people still think their own s**t doesn't smell.

Another young (ish) but perhaps crucially non swanwick ATCO.

[chiglet]

FD
As I have said "repeatedly" [and to Tony, Personally] I DO think that there is a North/South divide
I am an ATSA11 in the Tower at Manchester. So....
I contribute to the NATS "Safety Culture".....[I fill in 4114s' :ok: ],
I am a "valued Member of the Watch" [My "opinions" are listened to]
An "off unit" Watch Briefiing [Away day, with food and drinks supplied], was postponed because the "ATSAs" [as well as a couple of ATCOs] were unavailable
Different Strokes..........?
watp,iktch

[floydie]

Tony,

please do not take this the wrong way but what have you done to try and rule this behaviour out, using TRM principles?


I'm asking this because I am very curious how TRM does and/or could work in these cases. I always thought and hoped that it would make a difference but only when people are willing to take a risk and do something.

[DC10RealMan]

Floydie,

You make a very good point and I am not in slightest bit offended. I have on occasion had a "quiet word" with one or two people and have tried to offer advice both technical and/or professional whether it was wanted or not. I have had the benefit of the NATS TRM courses, but I have also attended a number of airlines CRM courses as well, so I am quite familar with the general principles involved as well as the acceptable principles of good manners and behaviour. I would reiterate the fact that I originally posted my comments, not because I felt personally affronted but for the benefit of my younger colleagues irrespective of their particular job or administrative title.

Fallows

[floydie]

I would reiterate the fact that I originally posted my comments, not because I felt personally affronted but for the benefit of my younger colleagues irrespective of their particular job or administrative title.

Again no offense but would you agree that one doesn't have to be personally affronted in order to try and correct undesired behaviour of others for the benefit of all?

Even better I would think. If one is not personally affronted chances are one is all the more objective and so the ones 'on the sideline' may have a greater responsibility than others.

[DC10RealMan]

Floydie,
I agree wholeheartly with that. I would also add that it is not just the personal responsibility of the individuals concerned except that some are just plain rude. It is an historical and cultural perspective within the whole ATC world and not just NATS. I still believe that my earlier comparision of the flight deck enviroment before the 1980s is very valid and we know what happened there dont we!
Fallows

[floydie]

I still believe that my earlier comparision of the flight deck enviroment before the 1980s is very valid and we know what happened there dont we!

Absolutely (I happen to be a pilot as well as an ATCO) but that is the reason why TRM has been developed and implemented isn't it? But I keep saying that TRM (as well as CRM) is only as good as the user applying it. A difference of course is that ATCOs are not (yet) assessed on their TRM related behaviour where pilots are. I sincerely hope the day will come when non-technical skills will be considered as important for safety as technical one. In other words, I think one shoul be able to loose their license based on assessment of non-technical skills.

[floydie]

It's not difficult to spot those who won't make it because of their attitude.

Which is why I believe there should be much more weight on that in the recruitment and selection processes. It's not the same job anymore and teamwork is essential. If someone does not have the correct attitudes and behaviours, don't bother to spend money on their traning.

[Minesapint]

The young 'gods' need to know better. I would take a very dim view :E of some spotty yoof, fresh from Hurn running down fellow ATC professionals. After all, what the hell do they know, straight out of skool and just valid.

Things are surely better than in the late 70's/early 80's when controllers and assistants (bad term 'assistant' for someone who used to 'almost' separate the traffic procedurally and sort out all the exit levels, no OLDI then 'boys' - phone in each ear!) used to sit at separate tables in the canteen and there was a tangible 'officers and other ranks' mentality. Do we remember a certain ATCO threatening to take UKATTS to court for allowing assistants access? I @PO()* do - and he was a former ATCA :(

Its refreshing to see so many controllers supporting ATSA's here though.

[Lon More]

Anybody else remember John Reynolds at LATCC. He didn't just hate ATCAs; he hated everybody - and the feelings were reciprocated.

[DC10RealMan]

QWERTY9,
I have to disagree with your contention that there is a divide between atco and atsa and your acceptance that there always will be, this is an artificial divide fed by egos and maintained by the managements of atc providers for their own ends and I would certainly not accept that these "barriers" make rudeness and discourtesy just "one of those things" that employees have to accept. Racism and sexism were at one time an "accepted" part of life, one would like to think that we have moved on a little since then.
Fallows

[Number2]

'It's not difficult to spot those who won't make it because of their attitude.'

Reminds me of the ginger fool on my course that walked out of the sim at Hurn declaring "I was really pushing tin there" - what a tool!

[Hermano Lobo]

Lon More wrote : "Anybody else remember John Reynolds at LATCC. He didn't just hate ATCAs; he hated everybody - and the feelings were reciprocated."

You must understand the psychology of an individual like this; he hates himself and projects this onto other people. Perhaps in your organisation you have noticed people with various attitudes being sent on Management Courses; they learn how to manage people and then afterwards promptly forget everything they have learned. Then they return to their own prejudices and biases as if they have never been on the course. You will often see them accuse others of the very thing from which they themselves suffer.

A contact in your organistion has told me that assistants are only employed for someone the ATCO's can look down on.

I think much of this has more to do with the cultural and class structure of the British Isles rather than ATC ? Would the same attitudes occur in somewhere like Australia for instance ?

[floydie]

@Hermano Lobo,

Interesting points you contribute.

As far as management courses and applying what's been learned is concerned. That's mainly due to the fact that these courses give peole a lot of information but they fail to demonstrate exactly how to apply this info. Also, we can't teach anybody anything. People can learn but only if they choose to.

This contact in the English organisation must have been a witty person or a person with a very screwed up mind. I won't take it seriously.

And finally for your comment on this possibly being exclusive for the British Isles. I've been around a bit and I can tell you that it's universal but not exclusively for ATC. But, and that is a big BUT, let's not think that this is the standard. It's always a few rotten apples in the basket that demonstrate this behaviour (which is driven by their attitudes). What always strikes me is that these rotten apples are not simply kicked out. Every organisation can do without them yet they seem to manage to claim their place:ugh:

[begbie]

Hermano Lobo, what exactly is a "real aviation person" ?

And as for dress style, I must be missing the portion of my licence that dictates what style to adopt. Imagine choosing my own style, thats just crazy, how do I do my job..?

[Lon More]

Hermano, FWIW I haven't worked for NATS or its predecessors for over 30 years This attitude is one of the reasons I left.
I don't think anyone in our Ops. Room would have made such a damning statement.

[Avalon]

Here's my tuppence worth; -
I've recently joined NATS and it quickly became apparent to me there were some detrimental divisions in the company. One is Area v Airports and the other is ATCO v ATSA which we certainly did not have within my previous company. When I voiced this it was suggested by "management" that the ATSAs are a undesirable expenditure that needs to be reduced.
I believe ATSAs (and their unions may be) have brought some of the pain upon themselves though, by not adapting and taking on new roles, by demeaning the job (reading newspapers etc) and not clinching more important "safety" responsibilities to justify their salaries.
My conclusion is that the ATSA role is changing rapidly, basically being drastically de-skilled by the advance of technology, as were Flight Engineers, Navigators and soon ATCOs may be. We can all think of other types of industry/business where this has happened and where there has been considerable anguish for all concerned (banking, steel etc). I have no doubt that ATCOs will be called Voice Monkeys by Pilots in due course because most of the decision making will be taken away from them and be replaced by airborne and ground based systems.
So my advice to operational ATSAs is - don't look upon the job from now on as anything more than a step to other things. And expect to be paid for doing a job that an intelligent youngster can grasp in six weeks? I do agree good manners and being polite cost nothing - but are invaluable!
Good luck.:ok:

[BDiONU]

Here's my tuppence worth; -
I've recently joined NATS and it quickly became apparent to me there were some detrimental divisions in the company. One is Area v Airports
They're divided in many respects because the regulator requires it. No cross subsidies etc.
My conclusion is that the ATSA role is changing rapidly, basically being drastically de-skilled by the advance of technology,
I disagree. For example the introduction of iFACTS will relieve the ATSAs of the dull, boring and mundane task of putting paper strips into holders and placing them in front of the ATCO (a good use of technology IMHO). Instead ATSAs will have roles which will be demanding of their cognitive skills. Quite probably fewer ATSAs but in more demanding roles.
You should also note that as far as possible office jobs which were previously done by ATCO grades are now being done by ATSA grades (ATC (T&S)).
I have no doubt that ATCOs will be called Voice Monkeys by Pilots in due course because most of the decision making will be taken away from them and be replaced by airborne and ground based systems.
And I have no doubt, given the vast complexity of that type of automated system, that the human will NEVER be removed from the decision making process. As an example iFACTS is the latest iteration in the NATS ATM systems and the ATCO is very much the person in the driving seat, the additional tools are quite rightly named SUPPORT tools.

BD

[fat'n'grey]

Here's my tuppence worth. Started in aviation in 1971. Now doing what I want to do where I want to do it. I have no jealousy of other people and their professional successes, in fact I take great pleasure in anyone else's success (especially the youngsters) and I seek no promotion or glory.

I've learnt lessons over the years; most important is that anyone that does a job that you do not do has a better knowledge and skill at that job than you. Be it ATSA, ATCO, pilot or bricklayer.

I could never have achieved any success in my profession without the knowledge, support, friendship and encouragement of all, of whatever grade or job description. They all contributed and supported my growth within my profession.

Them and us, us and them? Same team actually and those that don't recognise it are either vain or extremely foolhardy. Or perhaps both?

Oh dear!

[Jerricho]

Hermano, my brother and I both started out ATC careers as assistants in Brisbane Centre (the position was known as ADSO - Airways Data Systems Officer). There was a noticable "us and them" between the groups there as well. I used to put it down to the fact that more than a few in the assistant ranks were failed controllers, a couple of frustrated pilots and one or two who were there for the cash (it was a pretty good paying job for what was done). The duties were a little different to those of a NATS ATSA (man, I hated that AFTN printer). The derisory comments were always there (strip-monkey, dogs-body, f***ing lazy ADSOs), as was the rudeness. Our position was then hearded out into a room as it's own little entity, which made matters worse.

Before I joined, I believe the system used to be that many controllers in the seats started as either Flight Service or ADSOs, and progressed onwards through a cadetship. Maybe that's where the disconnect came in........suddenly it became a job that some viewed as below them now they had a licence.

[Lon More]

ATCOs will be called Voice Monkeys by Pilots

Some already refer to controllers as "Talking traffic lights".

[132.3]

just to say. i'm a new atco at a big unit, and the time i spent with the atsa's was invaluable and anyone who talks the job down really doesn't understand it. I hope it never gets to the situation where there is only me and the tac on a busy sector. One A.U. could cause an overload!

[ATSA_Grunt]

As a Swanwick ATSA, I'll put my tuppence in as well then!

Firstly, the ATSA role has been de-skilled to such an extent that a lot of the time the ATSA is reading the paper in between loading strips. But, this is not there fault! Am sure if all AC ATSAs were asked they would prefer to be of more use and would gladly relish the prospect of being more engaged and having more tasks to perform. They enjoyed the West Drayton days when they felt they performed a valuable and useful task.

But what are they going to do? They are in a money rut. They all have mortgages and bills. What else can they do with the experience they have elsewhere? Most are middle aged and re-training and embarking on an alternative career is a non starter. Its a real shame that NATS still makes it almost as hard for an ATSA to progress to being a NATS ATCO as it is for someone from the outside! After all they have a wealth of experience and knowledge that is underused and un-tapped!

My second point is that I can see the ATCO perspective as well. You're an ATCO working your nuts off (well some of the time!!), and the person sitting next to you is reading the paper and being payed around 30k for it! But, trust me, they would swap that paper for some job satisfaction and a feeling of being needed.

One last point, when NAS fails or theres a shutdown, I don't beleive any of these dissenting ATCOs mentioned (and it really is a small minority) would prefer to be there without them!

Things have moved on a lot over the years, and the class system has virtually been eroded, but there will always be one or two that think they are awesome! (maybe they are!). Just remember some ATSAs are married with children and the potential prospect of being without a job and career at the midpoint of your life can be a worrying prospect.

So, you're entitled to your opinion just as I, and everybody else is. Maybe be a bit more thoughtful about when and where you express it.....

[flower]

I can only speak from my own experiences but at the Airports a good ATSA is worth their weight in gold and truly make a difference to how well and easily you can do your job.
I haven't seen the "us and them" scenario in a long time but then I have viewed it from the ATCO side so I cannot say it does not exist at Airports but the job is different at the airports. Some conversations of how it used to be with some old school guys who saw a huge division between the two grades gave a horrifying insight into how bad that division could be. If the unit is wise then they will put new trainees in with ATSAs for a few weeks before ATCO training it helps them understand just exactly how much they do at the unit.

[Standard Noise]

Hear! Hear! Flower.

I'm in my second stint with NATS now, and thankfully, we have none of the 'them and us' here at Brizzel. Our ATSAs are worth their weight in bacon butties (anyone who knows me will understand how much I value a bit of pig in a bap!), and are the best I have worked with in my times with this company. A certain manager (who shall remain nameless) tried to persuade Brizzel to reduce ATSA numbers a few years ago, and failed. We rely on them to do jobs that we do not have time to do and are very highly valued by Brizzel ATCOs.

PS FWIW, I think they deserve to be paid more Mr Barron!

[tezzer]

I was called out to Swanwick last Saturday, to assist the Police in a particularily nasty crime. We were all over Hants and ended up in Swanwick in the early hours of Saturday morning. When it became apparent that we would get no further that night, we were sttod down to a country house hotel, to grab a couple of hours kip. Imagine my suprise, that we were not the only one's queuing to check into the hotel at 2 a.m.

Four or so suits (and a dress) were also checking in, wearing ID badges prominently around their necks, and having completed formalities at the desk went straight to the bar "for a few" as I overheard.

Imagine my even GREATER suprise when they were at breakfast, at 7 a.m. either having not gone to bed, or having grabbed a maximum of 5 hours - the length of time in the bar = not very much sleep, re-suited and dressed and still wearing their ID cards looking ready to go off to work. Indeed, they got into their car, and off they went.

It's a worry !

[ifaxu]

Tezzer. that has to be one of the most ill informed and pointless posts I have ever seen on this or any other forum! What is the implication of your ramblings. Highly unlikely that these suits were operational controllers( especially if suited on a saturday!). Stick to pc plod forums and use your obviously highly honed detective skills in more relevant areas.

[AlanM]

Tezz..... I would guess that 99% of ATCOs at LTCC/LACC never where suits.... esp at a weekend.

Leave it out guv'nor!

[lobby]

An even greater suprise that you were in a hotel and not our canteen. That is were the rest of Hampshires finest seem to spend most of their mornings. Taking advantage of our subsidised food and causing us to wait even longer for our breakfast. 12 of you the other morning!! :ugh:

[ifaxu]

including dog handlers and traffic police. Dont mind armed response unit being there but all others just stay away. bad enough paying for you all with my taxes without subsidising your meals!

[Clown Fish]

Can I ask why they are there in the first place?

[M40612]

Thankfully the Swanwick Skygods are in the minority. ATSA's do have a valuable role to play, ask the more experienced people how many times the Atsa has got them out of a hole.
If the work load is high, use the Atsa don't just ignore them.Make them part of the team! thats why we all have done TRM.

[GWYN]

Hermano Lobo post #39 “ I think much of this has more to do with the cultural and class structure of the British Isles rather than ATC ? Would the same attitudes occur in somewhere like Australia for instance ?”


As Jerricho has said, be assured that exactly this differentiation and discrimination existed in Australia. Of course the advent of TAAATS in 1999 saw the demise of the ADSO in the operational area and they have since been confined to a couple of positions such as ‘blipping.’

[NudgingSteel]

I don't know how the ATSA/ATCO interface works in the centres. But I've had a few years experience at airports. Quite apart from unusual or emergency situations, in which I have been helped massively by an experienced and capable ATSA, a decent ATSA makes my everyday routine ops run smoother (just like a decent radar controller at the other end of my final approach track does). I have also, in the past, had a quiet nudge from an ATSA pointing something out that I had missed.

tezzer - you'd be hard pressed to find an operational ATCO or ATSA in a suit during the week. But on a Sunday morning? Worry not my friend, especially as the shift start time of 0700 looked a bit tight on the timing you reported...

Hermano Lobo - you might as well say that First Officers are employed for the Captain to look down on. Or the cabin crew are employed just for the flight deck to look down on. (or serve drinks and look pretty). Some people make sweeping generalisations about Americans. Guess it's up to the individual to sort prejudice from fact, or bias from objectivity.

[chiglet]

I should/could have retired 18 months ago, bur a divorce/pension law sort of beggared that up...:{ oh, hum
OK, I've been an [RAF] ADO 1963-68 [Some changes in W.C. there :} ] and have been an ATCA/ATSA from 1969-NOW
I've worked Tower... EGBB, EGCC, App Asst EGBB, EGCC PATCRU [Preston Air Traffic Control Radar Unit] at Manchester Airport [The "Area" function was at Barton Hall....near Preston and the "Radar" function was on the first floor at Manchester Airport] When PATCRU folded, the Manchester "Sub Centre" was created, I was re-posted back to Manchester Tower, where I was employed in the best job in Aviation..... A "Runway Controller" :ok: ...as well as a run of the mill ATCA. When the Tower and Area functions were amalgamated, I worked on area...hence the second best ATSA position....Pennine Radar Asst :D [as an aside, I had 13 Area validations, 4 tower validations, I was an asst FBO, and a qualified STPO]
Sooo, apart from 14 months at Brum, Ive been at Manch since my birthday in 1970
In that time, I have had "Flak" from a grand total of 4 that is FOuR "Controllers"....ALL [except one] were sorted amicably, and V,PDQ. T'other took a slight "uncorrected" error......and a 'nudge' just before the brown stuff met the whirly thing.....
I am NOT perfect, I AM a Human being......So is an ATCO....THINK ABOUT IT
I/my oppo at ANY unit "Could" just save YOURLicence
Sorry about the long winded post, but to ALL the new ATCOs, your "Assistant" probably has forgotten more than you will ever know [about the job] [S]He is there to help YOU to to the Task that you are paid to do...whether they like you or not....................Remember, They are PROFESSIONALS TOO
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[Ahh-40612]

Who has stolen my tail-number??
Mind you I'm nought but a pile of scrap in Arizona these days!!

40612 - no longer carrying hazardous cargo.

[sector8dear]

Not many know of 40612 these days. Apparently 40612 graffiti can be seen as far afield at Ascension Island along with " you're still in the Midland Radar Overhead " :) :) :)

Bit off topic (sorry) but well remember the seperate tables in the LATCC Canteen and ex ATSA ATCO Cadets being told you are now an Air Teaffic Controll OFFICER and should spend your breaks with the other ATCOs and NOT the ATSAs!!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Point Seven]

but to ALL the new ATCOs, your "Assistant" probably has forgotten more than you will ever know [about the job]

chiglet

Appreciate the point that is trying to be made, but are the words above not merely inflammatory?

Not really at all helpful.

P7

[Mister Geezer]

There also appears to be an extra level of elitism from those at Swanwick.

As a pilot looking in... I would say that those at West Drayton have the tougher job?

[MancBoy]

Mister Geezer you need to expand on that comment!
Some sectors at Swanwick and Manchester are equally as complex as those at West Drayton.

[flower]

You have opened up a can of worms there Mr Geezer, each unit or sector has it's own complexities.
What from the cockpit may seem simple may have a multitude of standing agreements or coordinations involved. Just because the ATCOs may make it seem simple doesn't mean it is, we are so like Swans.

[Mister Geezer]

Well I may of sparked off a raw nerve but an ATCO who I was chatting to recently said that the folks at TC have the toughest task...... and before you ask... no... he doesn't work at West Drayton either!

[MancBoy]

Well Mister, may I cordially invite you to come and sit with me when it's going balls out and tell me if it isn't tough at Swanwick too!

Enroute and TMA controlling are completely different and as has been said before BOTH are equally as tough and challenging as each other, plus if AC is easier then why have some people struggled to make the transition from TMA to enroute?

[Me Me Me Me]

Well I may of sparked off a raw nerve but an ATCO who I was chatting to recently said that the folks at TC have the toughest task...... and before you ask... no... he doesn't work at West Drayton either!

I think what you've struck upon is the essence of the problem. I believe most ATCOs (quite rightly) take a great deal of pride in their work. The challenge of staying alert throughout a busy shift goes hand in hand with a competitive mentality.. all good... but why the need for the constant "my dad/sector/peepee is bigger/harder than yours" ?? (please delete and combine carefully!!)

[MancBoy]

Is it true that TC are going to be allowed to relocate to the Isle of Wight as they wont have to worry about the ferries being out of action?

[Jerricho]

my.......peepee is bigger...... than yours"

But mine is. It's hereditary.

[chiglet]

Point Seven
but to ALL the new ATCOs, your "Assistant" probably has forgotten more than you will ever know [about the job] [S]He is there to help YOU to to the Task that you are paid to do...whether they like you or not
Not at all. I remember training new ATCOs in Assistant duties, and one or two quickly "lost the plot". No fault of theirs, but [possibly] the structured training at the time. I can't remember how many Assistants have "progressed" to the ATCO fold [I do know that every trainee that has been "under my wing", has been successful in Promotion/ATCO boards]:ok:
When I joined, my task was....."To Collect, Collate, Activiate and Disseminate an Expeditious Flow of Air Traffic Information".......[to aid the ATCO]
This I firmly believe, still holds true today..even with EFPS
watp,iktch

[intherealworld]

I'd say on my watch the working relationship between ATCO/ATSA's is quite good and if you get involved you're part of the team, if you sit there reading your paper at busy times (doesn't count if the planner is reading theirs!!) then expect not to be involved any more than necessary! Have heard that other watches leave a lot to be desired wuth regard to this interaction and certain names constantly get mentioned as thinking they are superior!

[thinkofdolphins]

I am a Swanwick ATSA and I can sympathise where this thread originated but I do think many of my colleagues do the rest of us no favours whatsoever. There are far too many atsa's in our ops room who are uncapable of doing what they are paid to do. even the most simple re route has to be aided by the "little white book". I complain my job is crap because I want more responsibility but by being proactive you tend to be given more tasks to do. Far too often when training new people the type of things we can do to make ourselves useful and is appreciated by the controllers, it becomes forgotten when they become valid and the book or sudoku comes out. Where is the personal pride in doing a good job?
BTW is it that hard to empty a strip box once every 20 mins or so?
Mild rant over

[VectorLine]

--deleted-- as my post may cause discomfort to those on £40 K a year and laying back to read the paper on a daily basis

[thinkofdolphins]

Qwerty 9 surely it's the individuals themselves that are doing themselves a dis-service. The mistakes on sectors that are now frequently accepted would not have been tolerated at West Drayton so why now? I get fed up when working on other watches and being anticipated to be incapable of doing something for the planner because that is what thay are used to. I have lost count the amount of times I have done something without needing to be asked and the response is "our lot don't do that" Surely by the nature of our job we are there to ASSIST not hinder.

[RVR600]

Are you lot still wittering on about this.
Breaking news..... in most big organisations there is an element of bitching about one section or another, it goes with the territory, so get over it ffs.

If you have a problem, why dont you have the balls to view your concerns in the workplace where it can be discussed and sorted, instead of whining like a bunch of kids on here. :rolleyes:

[Jerricho]

You could cut the irony with a chainsaw..........


:E

[Lon More]

Ah Jerr, but you've got to excuse them. After all, they are the world's best controllers> It was in "Flight" so it must be true.


Think it was an April 1 edition

[ATSA_Grunt]

If you have a problem, why dont you have the balls to view your concerns in the workplace where it can be discussed and sorted, instead of whining like a bunch of kids on here. :rolleyes:

Isn'tthat the point of this forum?? Jeez..:ugh:

[Jerricho]

True, however it's not really going to achieve anything is it?

[Widger]

Made me laugh. Get it to the top again!:E :E :E

[Artas]

Here is my experience on the matter,
I joined Nats in 1990 as an ATSA in the early days of LFMU. Went to CFMU for a few years and eventually returned to LATCC. I saw that the writing was on the wall for the ATSA as technology was developing in such a way that eventually much of the role of the ATSA would be made obsolete.
Nats were thinking the same thing as they began to employ atsa's on less favourable contracts than I had myself. Anyway I looked at my options and realised that in order to keep my job I needed to reskill myself. Having an interest in IT, I spoke to the Engineering managers and let them know that I was very keen to move into the Engineering/Technology side of the company and that if anything came up I would jump at the chance. Luckily a position came up and I was able to be released from the ATC watch and moved into Engineering. Here I managed to convince my manager to let me go to college on day release. I eventually got a HND, took a years career break to go full time to Uni and graduated a year later.
My point is this...atsas should take a look at what is happening around them. It is clear how things are moving against them however if there are opportunities to reskill while remaining within the company, seek them out and use the system to reskill.
PS
After graduating I realised that Nats and UK didnt look so attractive anymore so I emigrated to join another company.
PPS
I would also like to wish Fallows all the luck in the world. I spent many a shift alongside you on FIR as a young ATSA and would like to thank you for your patience and humour (you need it supporting NVFC:ok: ).
Take it easy M8!!